This is topic Was this boundary behavior? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on March 05, 2005, 07:16 PM:
Just as I got setup to call this morning, I heard some coyotes yipping and howling. I moved to the other side of a large ridge field overlooking a long creekbottom. I howled a few long howls and then after about 10 minutes began a challenge howl. They answered back and about 5 min. later across the creekbottom and creek, on the opposite hillside 3 came out at about 600-700 yards. When I saw them I fired a challenge at them, and they stopped and looked my way and then began trotting the other way.
There was no wind and the sun was at my back. I know I was not seen by these coyotes. I just wondered if the creek may have been their boundary.
What do you guys think?
Higgins, anything I should have done different?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2005, 10:35 PM:
Might have been, but I wouldn't have challenged them, under the described circumstances?
Let's see what Prof. Higgins says?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 06, 2005, 05:11 AM:
My money says that Dr. Higgins will say, "Never challenge unless challenged first, as a rule. Coyotes, being typically non-confrontational animals, tend to work thru a series of progressive steps on their way toward the actual challenge bark and to attempt to provoke a confrontation without having worked thru all the proper steps will cause most coyotes to simply turn and walk away." Or something like that.
His offering will be much more detailed and educational, for certain.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 06, 2005, 08:07 AM:
You guys are forgetting that there are several varieties of coyotes. Maybe they were three yearlings hanging out together like they do this time of year, and they didn't want to mess with a challenge because they have been getting ran out of every dominant coyotes territory they have been in. If it would have been the "boss" for the area you may have gotten a completely different result. I am surprized at how often this is overlooked. The majority of your coyotes are in the younger age class and have no defined territory. Their territory is wherever no one has ran them out of and they aren't up to challenging anyone. They have already had their pecking order explained to them when breeding started. Howling is over rated for most of the year, especially now, if you are trying to get numbers. But when it works, it works well, because you are dealing with the "boss coyote" for that area. JMHO. CT
Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on March 06, 2005, 10:50 AM:
Cal, I think you may have hit the nail on the head with this one. They acted like they were a little intimidated, looking back as they trotted away.I thought at the time they might also be yearlings. Thank you for the input.
I'm just a rank novice at this, so hearing from guys like you, Leonard, Lance, R. Higgins is helpful and food for further thought.
[ March 06, 2005, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on March 06, 2005, 11:24 AM:
personally, I would have gone into some distress sounds when the coyotes appeared and not the coyote vocalization.
The great thing is that we all learn by our actions.. yet , sometimes our actions create results we would have never believed...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 06, 2005, 01:04 PM:
I would have done like Norm.
edit: even before the visual, the group howl was a good spot to just start a distress with an optional lost pup. Nothing threatening.
Unless I receive a challenge, I won't initiate it. However, I recognize the point that Cal is making. It's just that I don't hunt during denning season, so He may have the solution in control work.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 06, 2005, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 06, 2005, 01:50 PM:
I wasn't really refering to denning season Leonard. That is even different yet. I'm just talking about from say late Jan. thru Feb. there are still alot of guys hunting. At that time of year here, coyotes here are pairing up and starting to breed, and defining territories. The older males that have a female (making a pair) run the yearlings off. As they wander (through the land of nod, LOL!) they can only be where a dominant pair isn't. There are more of these young coyotes wandering around than there are old ones so if a guy wants success by numbers, he will stay away from most type howling. Which is quite the opposite of what is being preached in most places. But a guy goes out and toots his howler and has a coyote blast in and therefore he thinks he has the answer to all coyote calling woes. But you guys have it right, don't challenge unless challenged. There in lies another old wives tale of calling. Most guys hear the challenge and assume they are busted and quit. I have killed alot of coyotes by answering them right back, and things go to happening fast. I'm sure most of you guys know this already, or have had it happen. I shouldn't wander on like this, but cat season is over, my traps are all in the shed, fur is all put up and ready for the fur sale. I need to be out shooting but the wind is at a steady 40 mph, I already fertilized the lawn this morning so my "honey do's" are done and basically I'm bored as hell today.
[ March 06, 2005, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 06, 2005, 02:11 PM:
Since Rich hasn't joined in, I'll agree with Cal. As a rule, I regard not challenging any coyote as my default position. I concede everything to Cal and his experience on this matter that eclipses my own, and rightfully so, since 99.9% of my calling is recreational in nature and I limit myself to just those coyotes that present themselves at my convenience. Cal needs to know the difference, and how to decipher the dominant from sub-dominant coyotes as a part of his work. (Tail between legs, hunkered down. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
) I don't claim to be able to profess this skill at the first meeting, and so I choose to maintain a non-aggressive stance from the get go so as to be non-intimidating.
Having said that, late season coyotes of any age group tend to shy from distress calls in the daytime around here. Howling tends to generate some replies, and if they come in but hang up, I've found that the best distress to offer for results is a short series of puppy squeals. Less is best. Going over the top just gives them more of what concerns them to begin with.
[ March 06, 2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on March 06, 2005, 05:45 PM:
A recently completed study investigated factors affecting vocal and approach responces by coyotes of different social status to a varitey of different types of audio playback.Transient coyotes almost never vocally responded to playbacks.Territorial coyotes (alphas and betas) were much more likely to respond to group coyote vocalizations than to sirens,solo coyote vocalizations,or human imitations of coyotes or prey.Males vocally responded more than females,and responses were higher before sunrise when there was moolight. Territorial coyotes were twice as likely to approach playbacks as tranients and were more likely to approach playbacks of group howls than other types of playbacks.Approach rates were highest during the breeding and whelping seasons (Jan-June).
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 06, 2005, 07:14 PM:
Rob,
Is there a site online where I can get a copy of that study, or do you have the author's name, date of publication, journal name, volume, pages, etc..? Thanks. Sounds like very useful information.
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on March 06, 2005, 07:32 PM:
Lance it was recently completed by the National Wildlife Research Center and hasn't been published yet..you will be able to get it from them when it is.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nwrc/
[ March 06, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Rob ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 08, 2005, 05:25 PM:
Sorry I am slow in responding, Baldknobber. I hunted Sat. and Sun. and did not turn on the computer until today.
Cal is correct in everything he posted as is C Dog. However, if the three coyotes that exposed themselves after you "challenged" them were the same coyotes that you heard yipping and howling they were not transients, they were territorial. Yip-howls are a territorial claim/declaration that are issued by resident coyotes and one of the primary functions of that howl is spacial distribution and passive defense. Transients are rarely vocal for the reasons that Cal stated. Also as Cal and Lance stated, aggressive howling by the caller very often has the opposite effect that he wants.
Rob, you obviously quoted an abstract from the NWRC study (was that Mike Yeager's study). Do you have that in your possession? It reads almost identically to Fulmer's 87-88 study on the ALE. Primary difference in results was that Fulmer said that all coyotes approach responded more often to lone howls than group or yip howls (which makes more sense to me) and vocally responded more often to group yip howls. I will call Dale Nolte at the NWRC tomorrow because they obviously have some method of determining if a response is from a transient, no tag, no collar, and I'm really curious how they managed that.
Thanks for the heads up on that study.
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on March 08, 2005, 09:00 PM:
Rich, I'm just guessing here but I think the study was done by Michael Jaeger at the Hopland Research and Extension Center.
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