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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 26, 2005, 05:12 PM:
 
Rich (specifically),

Gimme the lowdown on these estrus chirps. I've heard this vocalization mentioned in passing, but us fellas that don't get to go to your talks aren't privvy to the concept yet. Is there someplace we can hear a sound file? What can you tell us about them.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 27, 2005, 04:40 AM:
 
Hey Lance, estrus chirps sound just like bird chirps. I produce them in a rhythmic sequence of four, which may be important, kinda like turkey clucks. It's the only way I've ever heard them. It is simply another coyote vocalization you can use on stand any time of year even though the sound itself is seasonal. The basic 101 cottontail boys get a chuckle from the concept, but the guys that are playing to a really hammered population might get an interesting result. Ronnie Robison has a really fascinating story about it from just last week. These four packs of coyotes within hearing distance of my house just don't respond to distress anymore. They've heard most everything, including electronic. They do respond to vocalizations. I've been testing the chirps only, no other sound, on them and the results are interesting/promising. Might make a good ambience/curiosity call for those stands you describe where nothing comes in.
I think Lohman is going to emphasize the estrus chirps when promoting their new She-Howler, designed by Ronnie. I hope their ads are explicit that this does not work like the mating calls of the turkey or elk, that coyotes are not driven by a "rut".
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on January 27, 2005, 05:03 AM:
 
Rich,

Any possibility of making and posting a wave file of those chirps. Sure would like to get a better idea of how they sound.

Dennis
 

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Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on January 27, 2005, 05:45 AM:
 
I can't check right now, but I think it was that Verminator movie, either way, it was a Randy Anderson deal where they got two coyotes filmed trying to mate. Some of the sound comes in quite well. It's kind of a high pitched bird/pup distress sound the female makes if that's the same one.

Brad
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 27, 2005, 10:24 AM:
 
Brad,

My first thought was to that sequence in Randy's video where they were trying to figure out what the sound was. I haven't had a chance to go back and look it up either.

Rich-

Are you using these chirps as a stand alone sound or juxtaposing them with other sounds/ vocalization?

Also, which calls have you found to work the best in making chirps? Open reeds, bite calls or howlers like the ones you make? A .wav would be invaluable, or a phone call. I can't find your number... again.

BTW, some of the guys around here continue to be blown away by your howler. Last night, I was out with two of my son's teachers who have become fervant callers in the past few weeks. On the last stand, I called with distresses first, then when it was just getting too dark to see real well, I did a lone howl, long and sad, in hopes that maybe while we waited the last ten minutes, one would answer me back as they got ready to go hunting. Scared the bejesus out of one of those guys, I think, because he sure came out of that treeline looking in a hurry.
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on January 27, 2005, 11:03 AM:
 
Im curious, as your "estrus chirp" sequence progresses; is there an urgency to play them, harder,faster....harder, faster?
Is there a noticeable softening or subdued trilling at the end of the seranade, something representing consumation?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2005, 11:34 AM:
 
You've been watching too much yote porn!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 27, 2005, 03:30 PM:
 
I just went and listened to it on Verminators and it's a series of four to five high-pitched "chirps", a lot like a black-capped chickadee in sound. I think a guy could pull it off with an AP-6 pretty easily.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 27, 2005, 04:30 PM:
 
Wat too much doggie porn, Vic. Since you are my friend I could send Anna down there to visit for a spell?
Lance, my favorite call is the AP6, however an open reed reproduces that sound for me. Ronnie's Lohman call and the AP7 do well. Brad H's antler call that he made for me nails it dead on and that is what I have been using.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 27, 2005, 05:35 PM:
 
Thanks. I'll give it a try.
 

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Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on January 23, 2007, 10:46 AM:
 
Thanks bradH,for pointing me in the right direction.It's just what I was looking for.
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on January 23, 2007, 12:43 PM:
 


[ January 23, 2007, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: varmit hunter ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 27, 2007, 10:17 AM:
 
I would love to review the process of elimination research that concluded that the responding coyote was thinking, "HEY, I JUST HEARD AN ESTRUS CHIRP" when it responded. Hahaha!

I've had a lot better luck with the deep throated venison belch than the estrous chirp since the venison belch is far more common.

Interesting theory nonetheless!

Az Hunter: "Im curious, as your "estrus chirp" sequence progresses; is there an urgency to play them, harder,faster....harder, faster?
Is there a noticeable softening or subdued trilling at the end of the seranade, something representing consumation?"

Hahaha!

Wonder if you can get a coyote to chirp like Jena Jameson?

Rich,

You're overanalyzing again. LOL!

~SH~
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on January 27, 2007, 11:43 AM:
 
Scott: LMAO
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 03, 2007, 12:59 PM:
 
Scott,
Remember back in the day, people thought we were crazy for blowing a tune on a distress call, but it worked. Then came the howlers and again the skeptics thought we were crazy, completely out of our minds to sit in the bushes and howl like a coyote, but again it worked for those who worked on it and learned the vocalizations.
I know the name "chirp" may not be manly enough for ya bet the science behind it works. I have been playing with it for over a year and in conjunction with other vocalizations its deadly.

So while everyone is pokin fun at the few who aren't afraid to dabble, with new vocalizations and NEW thought. Those of us who aren't afraid to try new ideas and thought are killin the heck out of these dogs that baffel most late season "hunters".

Just keep tellin it like it is Rich and Ronnie. Some of us are learning and having success with these new sounds and I like being the only one in my area using this sound..........LOL and doin it alot latley.

sly
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 04, 2007, 10:26 AM:
 

quote:

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I would love to review the process of elimination research that concluded that the responding coyote was thinking, "HEY, I JUST HEARD AN ESTRUS CHIRP" when it responded. Hahaha!

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LOL. Scott, it is a mistake to andropomorph coyote behavior. Coyotes do not interpret sounds logically and analyticaly as humans do. Coyotes respond to distress and vocalizations instinctually. No coyote will hear a puppy distress in January and think "I'm not supposed to hear that for five more months." They simply respond to the distress component and you know it. You're just busting my chops.HaHaHa.
They probably respond to "female solicitation yips" or as Ronnie so cleverly coined them "estrus chirps"(I know Bill Martz is pounding his forehead flat with the heel of his hand repeating "Why the hell didn't I think of that?" ) for the same reasons that they respond to any vocalization, instinctually motivated by social and or territorial issues.
Their manner of approach, whether they sneak in or run in with enthusiasm, is influenced by their most recent experiences, as you know.
It's just another sound that can be used to attract coyotes.
You're waaaay overanalyzing this. LOL!
 

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Posted by Rooster (Member # 959) on February 04, 2007, 10:48 AM:
 
I bought a Primos Hawk/Quail Mod. 311 that does a really good estrus chirp. Stick your finger in the bell to block the airflow. Sounds pretty much like the chirps on the Randy Anderson video.
 

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Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on February 04, 2007, 11:51 AM:
 
I've been playing with this sound the last few times out.I'm using a Carlton open reed,it looks identical to the Critter call pee wee.I went to a spot that has been pounded real hard,trapping and calling,by me.I've called in about 10 coyotes there.It was about -15 below zero,around 2am,under a fullmoon.I started the stand with a high pitched lone howl,and waited.About 10 min. later I got some howls back,and a few yips,about a 1/2 mile away.I howled back,with the Red Dessert and a homemade howler I made.Then went silent.About 10 min. later they howled back and were about a 1/4 mile away.I decided to try the estrus chirps,sound carries in that cold.I did a couple of chirps and waited.About 5min. later a lone coyote barked from the wood edge about 400yds away,I barked back,in a higher pitch,he barked back.Then I went silent,for a couple minutes.Then hit the chirp again,but nothing.A couple minutes later,I threw out a medium high pitch challenge,and waited,but nothing.After about 45 min. or so of this,we snuck out as quietly as possible,our fingrs were about froze stiff.So maybe next time,I'll set up in there,but a different spot.Any thoughts on what I might have done wrong.

[ February 04, 2007, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: blakyote ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 04, 2007, 01:55 PM:
 
blakyote,
Why when I was your age, I wouldn't let a little thing like frozen fingers and toes stop me. Just Yanking your chain a bit, LOL. I think you did just fine in that scenario. Next time you will kill one or two of those buggers. Keep up the good work.
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 05, 2007, 12:55 AM:
 
I have some questions.
Were you repeeting what the coyote said, Did you try to escalate the responces by cutting off the threats or barks. Old dogs don't like to be interupted, It will piss them off. A mad dog is likely to come straight in rather than go for the wind. It works trust me.

Did you do anything wrong? No It sounds like you did the right things but try what I told ya. I bet it pays off. I would change my howlers out and don't sound the same. change it up, step outside the box.

Keep makin stands It will get real western over the next month or so.

sly
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 05, 2007, 07:24 AM:
 
Sly Dog: "I have been playing with it for over a year and in conjunction with other vocalizations its deadly."

So tell me Mr. Sly Dog, how did you determine that the coyote responding to your "SO CALLED" estrous chirp was responding because he thought he heard a female coyote in estrous give out a "chirp"???

Hmmmmmm?????

I'd love to hear how you deducted, through the process of elimination, that the coyote was responding because he heard an "estrous chirp" instead of "pr. dog chirp" or a "pack rat chirp" or a hundred other chirps.

Looks to me like another "QUEST FOR ORIGINALITY" while the coyote responded because he heard something that intrigued his curiousity that he'd never heard before.

Gotta have something new to sell though right?

I've spent a lifetime around coyotes as well as the many men I work with and none of them have ever heard this so called "ESTROUS CHIRP" even prior to watching a dog coyote pour the coals to the bitch.

I've heard it with bobcats and mountain lions but not coyotes.

Also consider the fact that most coyote populations are young of the year and they sure as hell haven't heard a female coyote in estrous so you've eliminated that faction as knowing what an estrous chirp sounds like if there is such a thing.

You can let your imagination run wild with WHAT YOU THINK COYOTES HEAR but the bottom line is that coyotes don't talk so you can sell just about any concept you want can't you?

I know a number of callers that have called coyotes in with baby doll reeds. Funny they didn't try to sell that original concept and call it "THE PAMPER CHIRP".

~SH~

[ February 05, 2007, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on February 05, 2007, 07:29 AM:
 
Okay,why everyone is talking estrous chirps i thought i would ask this. In your opinion is there a bomb proof sound that reals them everytime no matter if it is a distress or solicitation or just plain vocal? Im curious. You dont even have to us about the sound, just your opinion if it is bomb proof.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 05, 2007, 07:31 AM:
 
Nope
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 05, 2007, 07:36 AM:
 
I can't say that there is a sound that is 100% in all areas under all conditions in all situations but I can tell you that I know a sound that I have used that was never refused if the coyotes had no idea I was there.

I call it "the Jena chirp" but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to tell you what the coyote thought he heard.

~SH~
 

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Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on February 05, 2007, 08:29 AM:
 
Sly,
I pretty much repeated back to him.The red desert howler I used was the first time I had it out,I just got it on a trade,so never used one before.Mostly used a JS mouth piece in a bell I carved and rasped out of maple,or my little open reed carlton,which both produced good over the years.Like I said,it's been pounded pretty hard by me trapping and calling.But next time out there,I'll try interupting him and see what happens.The farmer who owns the land,likes the body count.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 05, 2007, 09:47 AM:
 
When i first started useing a electric caller on my hunting trips west, i would buy as many different sounds i could get recorded on tape and try them on the coyotes in search of the magic sound. I have somewhere around 100 recordings and most of them are junk, the sounds that i found that would produce the most number of coyotes are as follows; Female invatational howl, Live cotton-tail recording, baby jack rabbit, lone howl, and for something different the lamb in distress with coyote barks. I think the last sound brings them in more out of curriosity and just something different. I have also worked with the lost mate howl a little and it seems to bring in the other coyote that has lost its mate, what the howl is saying i don't know, its just something different.
On another board new callers ask what sounds they need to be successful and i tell them just youre basic rabbit distress, a squeeker, and a howler. I tell them to just keep it simple.
I found out again this year when i took my bandit out west with me i did'nt need all those fancey sounds just a rabbit call and a howler that was easey for me to use. Once the coyote comes into veiw just give him what he likes to hear....
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 05, 2007, 09:49 AM:
 
Scott,

Once again, this is not rocket science. Just because YOU don't belive or understand don't mean it don't work.

Where you get your info puzzels me? Who said I'm selling anything, Did I say to anyone hey I have the only call you'll ever need. No and I have no intention of selling anything to do with the"CHURP"

"You can let your imagination run wild with WHAT YOU THINK COYOTES HEAR but the bottom line is that coyotes don't talk so you can sell just about any concept you want can't you?"

Once again I'm not selling anything, nor do I totaly understand the science behind it... BOTTOM LINE, it works and the more I use it the better I get at it... End result, more coyotes on the stretcher.

"So tell me Mr. Sly Dog, how did you determine that the coyote responding to your "SO CALLED" estrous chirp was responding because he thought he heard a female coyote in estrous give out a "chirp"???"

Scott you can drop the MR. its just sly, thanks.

Now to reply to your question.
1st off I never gave this sound the name "ESTROUS CHIRP" that was someone else OK.

2ndly the way I determined that the coyotes were responding was by observing their reactions to the sound. I hunt big open sagebrush country and I get to observe many coyotes from great distances. Many times this season I have observed coyotes hang up at 200+ yards out and tried other vocalizations with not much responce. After making 3-5 "chirps" the coyotes (not all of them, mind you) but a good number of them have turned and came at a trot. Weather its a sex thing, a food thing or a curiousity thing realy don't matter to me. Fact is it works more often than not and any tool I can use to get them into killing distance is a tool I'm going to use.

For the reccord it's not MY "estrous chirp". I'm just using it and telling you, it works..... I'm sorry I don't have the scientific proof that you require. I'm also sorry to undermine your athority but I'm always lookin for a new twist to improve my hunting and I will step outside the box and try new ideas. Proving that it works to you is not my job. I'm interested in helping those who are wanting to learn new sounds that will produce.

So poke your fun from behind your PC while I'm out calling coyotes in with a sound that is working and working well. I frankly don't give a crap if you don't think it works or are willing to learn something new, thats your deal.

Scott, for an educated man you sometimes suprize me with your closed minded, unwilling to admit the possabilitys of something new out there attitude.

Sly

Blakyote,
It don't always work but when it does it works well. This time of year stepping ot of the box and doing something diferent will often times work very well. Also try using diferent calls/ howlers. Mix it up if you want diferent results.

sly
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 05, 2007, 10:31 AM:
 
Just think about this "estrous chirp" concept from a logical standpoint.

Assuming there even is such a thing as an "estrous chirp", the only time it would occur is in the last week in Feb. to the First week in March during breeding.

Now consider that over 50% of most healthy coyote populations are young of the year coyotes. The last time the mother of these coming yearling coyotes would have "estrous chirped" was just prior to when they were conceived. They haven't heard it and their sisters, who do go into estrous, won't be "chirping" until late February early march.

Then, if there was an older male coyote out there that was lucky enough to know what an "estrous chirp" actually was, he would more than likely only have heard it once a year because if he bred the female he mated with, they would stay together until one of them died and she won't "chirp" again until next breeding season.

The alpha males don't pack up, head off to the singles bar looking for another "chirper" after they hear their first "chirp". It's one "chirp" a year. LOL!

Damn straight TA .17!

This "estrous chirp" concept is just another way for someone to try to dazzle the less informed with some bullsh*t original concept.

Sly: "Once again, this is not rocket science. Just because YOU don't belive or understand don't mean it don't work."

I know new sounds can be effective Sly. I use them all the time and that's exactly why I purchased a WT.

As far as what I understand, I understand more about this game than you'll probably ever know Sly so save your breath on that.

I understand just enough to know how ridiculous the "estrous chirp" concept really is.

Just because it works doesn't mean it works for the reasons you think it works.

Your own words...

Sly: "Weather its a sex thing, a food thing or a curiousity thing realy don't matter to me. Fact is it works more often than not and any tool I can use to get them into killing distance is a tool I'm going to use."

EXACTLY!

So why not just call it a "chirp" instead of misleading novice callers with some bullsh*t "estrous" concept?

Sly: "1st off I never gave this sound the name "ESTROUS CHIRP" that was someone else OK."

Great!

Then come up with a better name or face the chuckles from those who understand a little about coyote behavior.

Sly: "For the reccord it's not MY "estrous chirp". I'm just using it and telling you, it works..... I'm sorry I don't have the scientific proof that you require. I'm also sorry to undermine your athority but I'm always lookin for a new twist to improve my hunting and I will step outside the box and try new ideas. Proving that it works to you is not my job. I'm interested in helping those who are wanting to learn new sounds that will produce."

Sly: "So poke your fun from behind your PC while I'm out calling coyotes in with a sound that is working and working well. I frankly don't give a crap if you don't think it works or are willing to learn something new, thats your deal."

Sly,

The issue of WHETHER this new sound works or not has never been an issue of contention with me. That's just spin on your part. The issue of WHY it works is an issue with me. The title "estrous chirp" implies that this is a sound which duplicates a female coyote in estrous. To suggest that an estrous sound is some whiz bang revolutionary concept is ridiculous and misleading.

I happen to care enough about good information that I'm not going to support some ridiculous "estrous" concept simply so someone can think they have come up with some original concept.

Sly: "Scott, for an educated man you sometimes suprize me with your closed minded, unwilling to admit the possabilitys of something new out there attitude."

I don't think you will find anyone more broad minded on the topic of calling coyotes than I am. I am continually looking for ways to improve my success which has taken me to the level that I am currently at.

I just happen to have enough experience that I know better than to condone something as ridiculous as an "estrous chirp". I wish you did! I think novice callers deserve better than that.

Let me make this plain and simple, if you want to continue to call your new whiz bang sound an "estrous chirp", you can continue to face the chuckles from those who know better.

"Estrous chirp".....sheeeeeesh!

~SH~

[ February 05, 2007, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on February 05, 2007, 10:41 AM:
 
Maybe I'm wrong,but I was thinking the estrus chirp was the sound a female makes when she's hung up with a male.Much like fox do,I worked on a large fox ranch(20,000-30,000 fox)and primarily worked with the breeding and pelting end of it.So I've heard alot of sounds by fox,and during breeding season,when there hooked up,they made some awful sounds,kinda like this chirp thing.My thinking behind the chirp thing was,that it would give the impression something was gettin' busy,causing some curiousity.So my thinking was that the estrus chirp was by a female coyote that was actually in the hung up mode or possibly just before the male rode her.But maybe you guys are talking about something else.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 05, 2007, 10:49 AM:
 
I didn't hear Scott saying what you're doing wouldn't work,or was wrong,I heard him say "how do you know that the call(chirps)you used meant to the coyote what you think it meant".

Example:In your mind you are thinking that the sound your making is mimicing a female coyote in heat. Whereas for all you know the coyote is coming in to munch on a praire dog he hears chirping. Yes, you called the coyote in and thought it was because you were using the latest greatest new "female in heat sound" where in reality you really don't know.

I think that's where alot of folks including myself miss the boat in calling sometimes.They Over analize a give situation. When he came in(or when i saw him) when I used this call,he did this or that so it has to be because of this or that.Where it might be for reasons we don't know.Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 05, 2007, 11:33 AM:
 
blak coyote,

They absolutely do make sounds when they are breeding. The fact remains, those sounds are made once a year and most coyotes have never heard it.

UT Caller,

As always, you demonstrate your common sense.

Goes back to the old Q Wagoner story of throwing a hat at a coyote as he was coming to the call and he kept coming. Therefore his theory could have been that throwing a hat at a coyote is a good attraction feature at the calling stand.

FALSE CONCLUSIONS!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 05, 2007, 11:38 AM:
 
blak coyote,

Bill Martz has a recording of a coyote during breeding. I have used that sound a number of times. I haven't seen that it holds as much appeal as some of the other more common sounds do.

Let's use Les Johnson as an example. He's hunted competitively all across the United States and 90% of the coyotes he calls are with typical rabbit distress calls. He just knows when, where, and how to make that work and he kills a high percentage of 30+ pound adult coyotes.

~SH~
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 05, 2007, 11:52 AM:
 
Blakyote; The sound a redfox makes is more like a high pitch whistle. The name given to it is female in heat.
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 05, 2007, 01:49 PM:
 
OK Scott, as I said all I have to go on is what I have seen and I'm not sure and have no scientific proof of what is the reason only what I deduce from my experiances. My thoughts are this and they are based on these simple FACTS.

#1 Coyotes have a wide vocabulary that We the hunter have only begun to understand small fragments of....FACT.

#2 Coyotes respond to calling for many reasons, Based on what we know they respond for these basic reasons. Food,territorial, sexual drive and protection (defence)....FACT.

#3 We do know these "CHIRPS" exist and that the coyotes respond to them....FACT.

Now with these FACTS in mind, let me try to explain my thoughts on it. In my expierance I have only heard this chirp once and it was durring the mating season. The coyote that made the sound was in fact a female, I know this because I shot her.... Fact. Now when this coyote made this sound there were two other coyotes with her. I can't tell you for a fact that they were males because I did not kill either of them. From what I witnessed that March morning I deduced that it was a Demand for service if you will. Because of the actions of the two other dogs I deduced they were both males.
After she made this "chirp" the other two advanced toward the female but as they drew closer they became intangled in what I thought was a fight over this female. At this point the wind changed and blew right at the 3 coyotes. In the insewing flight for cover I only had one shot and it was the female.

From this encounter I deduced that this sound was indeed a sound that the female makes and as I can honestly say, I have never heard a male coyote make this sound. I only guess that it is a sound that females solely make. Thats not proven its just my thinking. Since hearing this and talking with others who have heard and recignize it as a chirp and only seeing it 1 time durring the breeding season. I deduced that it had to do with breeding rituals.
With me so far?

Now as to why it works outside of the breeding season I'm only guessing but here is my logic.
If you and your wife were sitting in your living room and from the bedroom came a womans voice saying come do me now. How long would it take for you and your wife to get to the bedroom to inspect the scorce of the sound? Would you both be lookin in that room for the same reason? would you both be going to defend your ground?

We all know coyotes are pack animals and as a pack defend their territorial boundrys. We also know that the pack is led by an alpha male and an alpha female.(in most instances)the rest of the pack is made up of Bata and Charly( sub domanent dogs). Most of the time the alphas are veteran dogs. Now when the pack hears A lone howl followed by this "chirp" comming from a coyote they don't know, thats inside their territory, they come to investigate.

Is it because of sex or just plain wanting rid of the intruders that are trespassing. Who knows for sure but it makes sence to me that this sound works year round for more than just sex reasons. I think it is bigger than that and goes more into a primevel drive to produce offspring and protect their territory, food scorce and all of the above.

Do you remember back in 82 or 83 when the first grunt calls came out and the old timers said I never heard that sound in the wild, well there you go, look at that industry now. There is also video to back that sound up, but it took years to produce it. Whitetail deer have made those sounds since their evolution but man only has had the ability to understand it for 20 some years. I think wew have the same thing going on here.

For decades ADC men have kept their little secerets from the public. I have kept secerets closely guarded as to how I kill so many coyotes annualy. Is this just another way of confusing the point to slow down the learning curve for others?

I think, No I stand corrected, there is something to this "CHIRP" and how coyotes
respond to it...

Scott, I know you are a very smart and educated coyote hunter from way back. I also enjoy reading your writings and respect your thoughts, even when I don't agree. However I feel you are loosing the importance of this "Chirp" and how it is going to change coyote hunting as we know it, over a word game. So you don't like the word "Estrus" attached to this Chirp. Remember I didn't name it, I DIDN'T COIN THE FRAZE and I'm NOT SELLING ANYTHING, OOOyes and I am yelling just so you can hear me clearly.

As for you knowing more about coyote calling than I do, maybe so but I'm still learning and I'm willing to learn. It must be nice to know everything, I'll bet its hard watching us struggle with trying to gain your welth of coyote savvy.

What ever the case, there is something to this "ESTRUS CHIRP" and I will keep on learning and using it as long as it produces.

SLY
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 05, 2007, 04:42 PM:
 
Now when the pack hears A lone howl followed by this "chirp" comming from a coyote they don't know, thats inside their territory, they come to investigate.
What sound are they comeing to investigate, the lone howl or the chirp? What you say about the chirp is interesting but the best way to find out how well it really works is to use it alone with no other sounds.
Just like some callers useing a electric caller and tossing out 3, 4, 5 ,6 , 7, different sounds, which sound produced the results? Was it sound #3 or was it sound # 7 ?
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 05, 2007, 04:44 PM:
 
Sly,
To base your hypothesis of the "female chirp" off of ONE experience of hearing it doesn't make it rock solid evidence.When you spend hundreds of hours in the field and can hear it several times with all the different variables available(time of year,under what circumstances,males/females,etc.)that makes it more rock solid.It's kind of funny how no one even talked about this so called "female chirp" until Randy Anderson had it on one of his videos.Now guys are hearing it all the time and using it with incredible success.As far as the lone howl followed by a chirp,how do you know the coyote didn't respond to the lone howl alone,or the lone howl and some kind of distressed animal that chirps when distressed(praire dog).There's lots of variables to consider when calling not just what you percieve the coyote is thinking.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on February 05, 2007, 05:24 PM:
 

quote:

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I can't say that there is a sound that is 100% in all areas under all conditions in all situations

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Scott, I totaly agree with that completely, but im just intrested.
steve
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 05, 2007, 05:25 PM:
 
Sly: "#1 Coyotes have a wide vocabulary that We the hunter have only begun to understand small fragments of....FACT."

#1. Yes coyotes have a very sophisticated language to the point that I place a lot of doubt on those who think they can interpret it beyond selling a coyote the idea that another coyote is present.

Sly: "#2 Coyotes respond to calling for many reasons, Based on what we know they respond for these basic reasons. Food,territorial, sexual drive and protection (defence)....FACT."

That's right, coyotes do respond to calling for many reasons which is precisely why I think it's foolish for someone to think they know the EXACT REASON.

Coyotes respond due to hunger, due to territorial instincts, for mating in December and January, for breeding in February and March, for protection of the pups from May until dispersal but you missed one very important factor, they love to kill other critters for the pure enjoyment of killing. That doesn't have a anything to do with hunger, territorial, mating, breeding, or protection. They simply like to kill because they can. BLOOD LUST!

An old ADC hand once told me, if they can't kill it, breed it, piss on it, shit on it, or eat it, it probably doesn't interest them. NOW THAT IS FACT!

Sly: "#3 We do know these "CHIRPS" exist and that the coyotes respond to them....FACT."

You don't know why they respond to them and you don't know if they wouldn't have responded to a typical rabbit distress call under the same circumstances.

You also don't know if you can duplicate it well enough that a coyote believes it's the sound you are trying to duplicate.

Sly: "In my expierance I have only heard this chirp once and it was durring the mating season."

Exactly, so why would MOST coyotes associate it with a reason to respond at other times of the year if they've probably never heard it?

You are assuming that when you immitate this sound that a coyote is responding for a mating or breeding reason because that's the circumstances that you heard it under. They could just as easily be responding because it sounds like something they can kill and tear to shreds like a "ditch cougar". That's where my logic differs from yours. You're trying to write more into this than you know for fact.

Sly: "From what I witnessed that March morning I deduced that it was a Demand for service if you will. Because of the actions of the two other dogs I deduced they were both males.
After she made this "chirp" the other two advanced toward the female but as they drew closer they became intangled in what I thought was a fight over this female."

Ok, for the sake of argument, let's assume that this sound was a "come and get it" call to her mate. Here's the question you must ask yourself from this point.

1. Can you duplicate that exact sound well enough to where a coyote says, "hey, I just heard an estrous chirp".

2. Considering the fact that this sound is only going to occur in the breeding aged females during a few days during the breeding season and only going to be heard by her mate, how much attraction can it have to non breeding coyotes outside of the breeding season?

3. Why would this sound have any more attraction to a coyote than a bird distress, or rabbit distress, or fawn distress, or pup distress.

4. Most importantly, how do you know what they think they heard? You don't! You just know they responded but you speculate why and it's easy to get caught up in the hype of some original concept.

Sly: "We all know coyotes are pack animals and as a pack defend their territorial boundrys. We also know that the pack is led by an alpha male and an alpha female.(in most instances)the rest of the pack is made up of Bata and Charly( sub domanent dogs). Most of the time the alphas are veteran dogs. Now when the pack hears A lone howl followed by this "chirp" comming from a coyote they don't know, thats inside their territory, they come to investigate."

Coyotes in exploited populatins are not "PACK ANIMALS" per say like wolves.

Robert Crabtree's research in Yellowstone started a lot of this coyote pack nonsense which does not apply outside of an unexploited population like Yellowstone National Park. An unexploited population as in YNP is the exception rather than the rule.

When you see multiple coyotes it's usually a family group in early fall with pups that haven't dispersed yet. When you see multiple coyotes in the spring and summer, it's usually the adult pair and a previous off spring or two but that is hardly comparable to a "PACK" formation which is a wolf term and misleading in it's application to coyotes.

The only time I have seen coyotes take on a resemblance of a "PACK" formation is when we have really adverse weather conditions and they are bunched up to work over the stressed deer populations or share carrion. Those groups of coyotes might not even be related, they just happen to be sharing the same food source.

In that situation, instead of the adult coyotes having normal non overlapping territories, these territories become long and narrow running like spokes of a wheel into a common food source joined by a bunch of roaming no-mads also looking for a meal in this harsh environment.

Back to your chirp, you still are delving into pure speculation on why coyotes are responding. Like I said, they may think it's something totally different from what you are trying to imitate. Considering the complexities of the coyote language and how keen they are in identifying individual coyotes, you have no idea what they think they are hearing. You only know they are responding, that's all you know.

Sly: "Is it because of sex or just plain wanting rid of the intruders that are trespassing."

Or do they think it's some new prey chirping in the brush? You don't know!

Sly: "I think it is bigger than that and goes more into a primevel drive to produce offspring and protect their territory, food scorce and all of the above."

Because that's what you want to believe. The coyotes probably think it's something new to kill.

Sly: "Do you remember back in 82 or 83 when the first grunt calls came out and the old timers said I never heard that sound in the wild, well there you go, look at that industry now. There is also video to back that sound up, but it took years to produce it. Whitetail deer have made those sounds since their evolution but man only has had the ability to understand it for 20 some years. I think wew have the same thing going on here."

Again, you want to believe the "estrous chirp" is something revolutionary so you'll talk yourself into it when you can't begin to prove it.

The application of a rutting buck grunt has been proven. In comparison, the value of a coyote "estrous chirp" has not been proven. The value of a coyote "estrous chirp" beyond more typical distress calls has not been proven. What a coyote believes it's hearing when presented with an "estrous chirp" also has not been proven.

Sly: "However I feel you are loosing the importance of this "Chirp" and how it is going to change coyote hunting as we know it, over a word game."

Hahaha! Sly, let me assure you of one thing, I will bet you anything you want to bet that I have three sounds in my arsenal that will blow any chirp right out of the water. One is for volume, authenticity, and locates coyotes. One that capitalizes on the maternal instincts of a coyote. One that sounds like prey unlike anything they have heard from anyone else.

If that's not enough, I have the WT with it's arsenal of coyote vocalizations.

I highly doubt that you have anything that's going to work any better than what I am currently using. I would bet money on it.

By all means, keep using what is working. I will never argue with success but I will certainly argue WHY something succeeds.

Sly: "As for you knowing more about coyote calling than I do, maybe so but I'm still learning and I'm willing to learn."

Where did that come from?

I'm just debating one faction of coyote calling on this thread and that is why they respond to WHAT YOU BELIEVE is an estrous chirp imitation.

Sly: "It must be nice to know everything, I'll bet its hard watching us struggle with trying to gain your welth of coyote savvy."

I wouldn't know because the person who thinks they know it all has truly exposed their ignorance to the world.

It's hard watching someone think he's come across some revolutionary sound when he hasn't considered the fact that a coyote might think it's something totally different.

You knock yourself out with your "estrous chirp" immitations and until a coyote can tell you why it responded to them, you can just go on believing it was for the reasons that you believe. WHAT A COUNTRY!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 05, 2007, 07:09 PM:
 
Maybe you just have to take it on faith, Scott? There are many things that you don't have to personally experience, like hanging or electrocution, to know it will kill ya.

But, like you, I am skeptical of this sound and it's description as an estrus chirp. But who gives a shit, if it works? Another tool in the shed.

Right now, I want to hear more about your secret ADC sounds that the rest of us are ignorant of, and how did you stumble upon them? Also, what is the coyote thinking, when he hears these secret sounds?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 05, 2007, 07:26 PM:
 
Ok, guys Remember I said it was my thinking and how I precive what I saw and what I have experianced,

You all have good points and valid questions and I have said that I'm not sure of many of your questions.

You guys are jumping on me like a pack of dogs and all I said is this is what I think from what I've seen and from what I have discused with others.

BTW I have yet to see Randys video with this sound on it but bet your ass I will be getting a copy to see if it is anything like what I saw and heard.

By the way Scott, I'm open minded and trust me I have had all the thoughts and questions you are throughing at me and I do wish I had the ansers to your questions. For now all I can say is weather they are comming to eat diddle or fight is not the point. The point is they are comming and with time the questions will be solved and myth will become fact, good or bad, in favor or not in favor of the concept.

I have stoped 2 diferent coyotes that I bumped walking in and stoped them in their tracks with this sound, had them come back towards me and got the kill on one and flat out missed the other. At that time that was the only call I used and those coyotes had both seen me. I can't explain it but I saw it and belive there is a direct link to a territorial defence, having to do with a sound they hear and instintualy respond to.

As I said I'm still lookin for the puzzle pieces and can't explain all the questions but I will go on using it and I will be filming as much as I can.

TA17Rem, I like your Idea of just using the chirp to see if it works alone and I will be working that angle hard over the next few weeks as I'm not sure either what sound they responded to but I;ll find out...

Scott, I don't know everything but I do have over 37 years of coyote hunting behind me and I'm no fool either. You may dismiss this as just a hoaks or whatever but I know better and will learn what this chirp is all about and I'll keep you updated.

Observation is the tool video is the proof...

as a lone dog can't fight a pack I will retreat for now but I'll be back to this thread with ammo........

sly
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 05, 2007, 08:28 PM:
 
Sly,

I'm not doubting your observations, I'm doubting your theories for those observations. Please get that straight in your mind.

I don't question success, I question the reasons for success.

Leonard, I give a shit because I believe the concept is misleading. I know coyotes well enough to know that there is lots of room for speculation on why they react a certain way.

Did you get your wolf shot yet? Sounds like you may not have to drive near so far in the close future. You up for a WY, ID, or MT wolf hunt?

Then perhaps we can discuss those "secret sounds".

~SH~
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 06, 2007, 07:53 AM:
 
Interesting discussion.

I look @ experience's, as leading to more questions. Specifically, when talking of coyotes. No man, IMO. Will ever know what go's on in the mind of a coyote or what a coyote is saying/voicing "exactly". Due to external forces.

We can theorize all we want. Some theory's point to specific "theorhetical facts". Take, primitive man for instance. Do you believe we all "evolved" from evolution[Darwinism]. Or are from God?

One points to a supreme power. The other, your ancester's were nothing but a bunch of flea bitten apes, LOL!

edit; Forgot punchline. Coo-coo-ka-choo

[ February 06, 2007, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 06, 2007, 08:44 AM:
 

quote:

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You guys are jumping on me like a pack of dogs/slydog

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Come on Sly. That is not true. You have Scott debating your statements and conclusions. I admit, sometimes he seems like a pack of dogs, but you are not being attacked by the membership. Don't take it personal, he just likes to argue. That's Wiley; like a duck on a June Bug.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 06, 2007, 09:19 AM:
 
Scott,

You and I have agreed to disagree before and I'm not offended that you don't agree, thats fine but some of your arguments don't wash.
Like: your bringing up the question of YOY and How would they Identify this sound if it is only used by a female in heat once a year.

Nature has implanted instinctual reactions in all wildlife.
I'm quite certain that you can agree with that.
Also as I stated, when using this sound I haven't called in any singles only multiples and of the stands that I have used this sound I have yet to kill a pup. I'm not saying I haven't called in any pups but I haven't killed one on any of those stands.

This is fact, out of the 76 coyotes that I have killed so far 39 have been adult males with 21 being over 28 lbs and 6 over 35 lbs, 9 have been yearlings and the rest have been females.

It seems the first dogs to the stand are mature males and females, if there are pups comming they are late arrivals and not in real danger as I take the closest best shot first and so on.

Scott, you know with much of this its inturpritation and what we know to work. I understand your point as to weather its named right but I Did not coin the frase nor did I Invent the sound nor am I trying to make money off of the sound. I want to understand it and its meaning and reguardless of the name and or what it implys or don't imply

This sound is working and we need to study it and find out what it is and what it is doing. We know it is there, we know it brings dogs in and we know the sound can be reproduced. How accurate we are with the sound I'm not sure realy matters. We speek english but everyone sounds different. I think that applys to wildlife as well.

I think there is a lot of recearch left to be done but I think we are on to something that will produce.

I never said it will replace the rabbit or the howler but I think it will be a welcome aid to coyote hunters down the road..

sly
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 06, 2007, 09:47 AM:
 


[ March 28, 2010, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on February 06, 2007, 11:28 AM:
 

quote:

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blak coyote,

Bill Martz has a recording of a coyote during breeding. I have used that sound a number of times. I haven't seen that it holds as much appeal as some of the other more common sounds do.

Let's use Les Johnson as an example. He's hunted competitively all across the United States and 90% of the coyotes he calls are with typical rabbit distress calls. He just knows when, where, and how to make that work and he kills a high percentage of 30+ pound adult coyotes.

~SH~

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quote:

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quote:

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From this encounter I deduced that this sound was indeed a sound that the female makes and as I can honestly say, I have never heard a male coyote make this sound. I only guess that it is a sound that females solely make. Thats not proven its just my thinking. Since hearing this and talking with others who have heard and recignize it as a chirp and only seeing it 1 time durring the breeding season. I deduced that it had to do with breeding rituals.

I would just like to know with only ONE experience under your belt from hearing this Female Chirp how you have made such a bold claim.That's it!Like I said I don't question the effectiveness of the sound just the fact that you believe you know that you imitated a female coyote sound based on very limited experience with that sound.Now when you and/or others hear this sound over and over and only during the mating season,and only by females,and you can see countless interactions between male and female coyotes when this sound is heard,then you can say "from my extensive experience I have come to a conclusion that there is indeed a female estrus chirp and it is only used by females during the mating season,to demand service from a male".Otherwise it is just another sound that works to call coyotes.

I have only heard the sound 4 times.Once by a live coyote,once on one of Randy Andersons videos,next was one of Randy Andersons FX sounds for foxpro(female Whimpers),and last was the sound Steve Posted.Sounds like short high pitched KIYI's.Hardly a calling breakthrough.But all that matters is that it calls coyotes.

Good Hunting Chad

Edited for spelling

[ May 21, 2007, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 07, 2007, 11:51 AM:
 
"I would like to add I don't make a dime of this call. It is part of my contract with Lohman."

Well that's a shame. I just bought one today . Looking forward to trying it out soon.

- DAA
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 07, 2007, 12:01 PM:
 
Chad,

"I would just like to know with only ONE experience under your belt from hearing this Female Chirp how you have made such a bold claim"

First off, I said I only heard it on one ocation, Thats not the only experiance I've had with the sound. I have been using this sound and getting lots of experiance with it. I realy don't feel I've made any bold claims, I've just shaired my thoughts and what I think is going on, thats all.

As to me making "Such a bold claim", This is only what I deduce from what I've seen and experianced.

"MY FREEKIN OPINION" is all, nothing eched in stone.

(Prove it wrong) and I'll back down, say I'm sorry for misleading everyone and shut my mouth. Untill then I'm going to shair my "THOUGHTS" and Ideas freely weather you agree or not. OK Chad

Nothing personal I'm just tired of the NA SAYERS running this down. Prove I'm wrong just as you want me to provide you with concrete evadence that what I think is right.

And for the reccord I'm not saying Your thought is wrong either, trust me I've had the same thoughts. I just keep deducing from what I've experianced and witnessed using this sound, it to be true to my way of thinking.

This debate could be a long one unless people try using the sound. the more people using this sound the sooner we will possably start to see patterns and base our thierys more on fact than assumptions. Is that fair??

sly

[ February 07, 2007, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: slydog ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 07, 2007, 12:23 PM:
 
Fair enough.I just know when I first started calling.Specifically howling,that I tried to over analyze it,tried to figure out what coyotes were thinking,To be honest I thought I had it figured out a time or two.lol

But the longer I use howls to call coyotes the more I realize how little I know/understand.It's much more complicated(coyote language)than I first thought.I know what works and has worked,but alot of times I really don't know why.It just does and I'm ok with that.Don't get me wrong I use sounds that alot of guys don't use or don't know about that have proven themselves over the years but I would be a fool to think I know what a coyote thinks when I use those sounds.As long as the coyotes are coming to the sounds you make that's all that matters.Good Hunting Chad

[ February 07, 2007, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 07, 2007, 02:41 PM:
 
Chad,

The first 10 years I hunted and traped coyotes I did it to make money. The last 27 years I have done it for revenge. I too use sounds that I'm sure would make the best ADC men look at me with question marks all over their faces but they too constantly produce.

I think you are right as rain. Do any of us realy totaly understand the coyote vocabulary, Hell no, but people want to try to understand why we use the sounds we use. I'm just trying to explain it the best way I can figure. Like I said its just my educated guess as to what is going on with this sound and In NO way do I stand flat footed against you guys in your thought.

This theory of mine is just 37 years of being fooled by coyotes pushing what I think out of the box. I'm certanly not demanding anyone think I'm an athority on the matter......lol these dang dogs have made a fool out of me more times than not. It is JUST an educated guess on my part.

sly
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 07, 2007, 04:56 PM:
 
I almost hate to say anything on this topic, but here goes!! Two years ago, on a late season outing, I beleive it was early March, I went out with a cow horn howler only. I went out to force myself to use only the howler, I took no other calls. I only got three sets in that morning and it was my last hunt of the season. BUT, the only sound I used was my rendition of the chirp. I did series after series of nothing but the chirp. In three sets, I called in two females, both of which were in heat! Go figure!!
Why did females come? Why not a male? Maybe my rendition of the chirp was miss interpreted by the coyotes, and they were coming to see what critter there was making the sound, cause it sounded like it might taste like chicken , who knows!!
None the less, it is a sound that again in the next few weeks, I will be using in areas that I have been to a few times calling already this winter. It's a sound that those coyotes that have been called and shot at a time or two already this winter haven't heard, and I'll bet that I fool at least a couple more with it!
I'm not selling a dang thing either, by the way! Just sharing my experience with those who know more than I do!!
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on February 07, 2007, 05:17 PM:
 
Some ppl just don't want to try anything new.
What called them in, the howl or the distress? The chirps or the howl?
Who gives 2 shits? They came in to one or the other and if it works do it again. Keep doing it until it stops working and then do it some more. You dicks that over analyze and pick apart each post as if it's some kind of friggin science project are ridiculous. The world is not going off axis if a certain sound truly does or does not produce. If a guy says it works or it has worked for them, what do you care? They are not forcing it on YOU. If you don't like it or don't believe in it then don't do it. Just go ahead and sit in the corner with your thumb in your mouth. You sound like my 3 year old. Why this? Why that?
You are essentially calling someone else a LIAR for telling of THEIR in the field experiences. One man's experience may not be yours but they aren't calling you a liar for it.EDIT: Spelling

[ February 07, 2007, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 07, 2007, 06:05 PM:
 
Whoa,Nobody called anyone a liar.At least from what I've read.I sure as hell didn't.I can totally believe that Sly has called coyotes with his new sound.Without rehashing everything again,I just called into question the fact that the sound he made although effective doesn't mean it was effective for the reasons he stated(mating purposes)that the "coyote female was demanding service from the Males".Unless the coyote could talk and tell you that for a fact,we don't really know why it responded.That's it.Plain and Simple.You want to read more into it than that,then that your problem.As far as being an over analyzing Dick, you can kiss my ASS.I have as much right to question his Theory as he does in sharing it.Go back and read where I called him a liar.It's not there.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 07, 2007, 06:57 PM:
 
OK guys lets not forget we are guests here. Its ok to disagree as long as we are respectful to each other..

Please don't let this thread be shut down, we are learning here... Please

sly
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on February 07, 2007, 09:36 PM:
 
TRnCO,Those two gals in heat thought a third interloper was chirping up an affair with there lover.Why shouldn't they come in and whip the sh*t out of her?

Sly,i been playing that tune for two years now and i'm going to keep playing it.
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 07, 2007, 11:25 PM:
 
thanks guys I was feeling kinda alone and out on a limb for a while there. I'm glad there are others having success with this sound.

TRnCO. Hows the family man Hope everyone is good. I gotta get to bed as I'm going out in the morning to use this sound"to call in coyotes that don't know why they are comming in" What a country.

Melvin I tried to E-mail you but it won't let me??

sly
 

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Posted by DJ in AZ (Member # 276) on February 08, 2007, 09:44 AM:
 
Those two females coyotes may be part of the gay coyote community
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on February 08, 2007, 04:09 PM:
 
slydog,I have no idea why you can't reach me by E-Mail? I keep getting X rated mail from those chirping b*tches from somewhere! Don't know why i would get that sh*t mail and not yours?
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 08, 2007, 05:20 PM:
 
Ive suggested it before, but the technique seems to have fallen out of favor? Seems everyone is luring in those late season, big ole rough males with the new found "estrus chirp"
I think the over looked "penile peeps" are gonna be killer, for pulling in those late season bitches that elude us each spring?
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 08, 2007, 07:52 PM:
 
Vic, would that be pre penile or post penile peeps?
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on February 08, 2007, 08:13 PM:
 
I am not about to wrap my lips round that one. I leave that to the broke back desert gang.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 09, 2007, 03:08 AM:
 
Ronnie, LOL, thats funny.

This has been a good discussion. Came close to a mental breakdown, but stayed pretty good.

I learned alot in this thread. One thing, Im not as far off as I thought. Ive always thought there was alot more science to coyote vocalizations? Exact whens and wheres to use what sounds and I have always kept my mouth shut and was pretty intimidated to even think about it when in the presence of another hunter. I dont know that much about it and didnt want to show my ignorance.

Seems maybe I wasnt so far off after all? Just try shit till I call a coyote and keep using it til it dont work anymore and try some more shit. As far as I have gotten is some times more aggressive sounds work better than less aggressive sounds, and vice versa. Maybe I am way behind and maybe not?

Good thread, thanks fellers.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 09, 2007, 06:11 AM:
 
One other thing Criner, thanks for the sound. I played it and two airdales damned near tore the living room down gettin to the computer. LOL

I saved it for my call, I guess thats ok? Its on the net?
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 11, 2007, 06:37 PM:
 
Hey smithers, if you want to sit and nod your head in agreement to every crazy theory that comes along, that's your perogative. I'm glad there is at least enough independent thinkers (dicks) out there that question the concept of an "estrous chirp" and whether it has any more value than other more common vocalizations.

My apologies for not being a "mindless lemming" but I've heard a lot of concepts come and go in my time and unlike you, I have to kill all coyotes present in and around sheep production areas. I don't have the luxury of testing a lot of new fangled concepts.

You "estrous chirp" advocates cannot seem to grasp that nobody is questioning the results of a new sound. What is being questioned is the concept of an "estrous chirp" (sorry I have to laugh every time I write that). Now watch, someone will once again say, "gee, they're just afraid to try something new".

ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Hey smithers, have you ever tried the intoxication cackles? Talk about having coyotes run over you. The "estrous chirps" and the "penile peeps" are actually during the dirty deed between the adult pair. It's the intoxication cackles that really get the young boys fired up. By the time you hear the "estrous chirps" and "penile peeps", the young coyotes already know that they're not going to be part of that action. When they hear the "intoxication cackles" if big pappa isn't around, they think there's a chance.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 11, 2007, 07:31 PM:
 
Scott,

Maybe I'm just a thick headed Dick, but I can't follow you on the problem with the concept.

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but I am reading of guys who are trying to make a different than normal sound on a caller, and it's bringing in coyotes to be shot.

I thought that was the entire concept for calling coyotes? Entice them in close enough with a sound, so that you can shoot them.

What am I missing here?
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 11, 2007, 07:59 PM:
 
Scott,

Quite walkin around with your feeler hurt. I promise the next new sound we come up with will be named after you....... Trust me I will think of a good name.....LOL

sly
 

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Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on February 11, 2007, 08:10 PM:
 
Andy, That is ernie wilsons sound. Also i dont think it is the chirp as they call it but it is close and might be as effective.
steve
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 12, 2007, 04:54 AM:
 
My dogs will totally ignore a sound one day that they had great interest in another day. So dog response does not mean a whole lot to me other than the same pattern may be consistent with coyotes.Coincidence can cause a lot of incorrect conclusions when only a few tries have been made.I have done that plenty and try to avoid it. I am always amazed at hunters thinking the coyote is thinking this or that because of what they themselves think.. (Anthropomorphism,attaching human traits to nonhuman objects.sorry Rich H, Andropomorphism is when men believe women think llke men do or gynopomorphism when women beleive men think like women.) Spending too much time on what a coyote is "thinking" on a hunters part can be useless and can distract from maintaing focus..I hear it all the time around here. Coyotes react,react,react,oh did I say react.Their response is based on learned and evolutionary factors.It is called operant conditioning.(pysch 101)Learned responses based on negative(shooting) or positve(food,sex etc) rewards.The combination of all these and other influences affect coyotes behavoir.I quit worrying about what a coyote is thinking a long time ago and try to determine how they will react and best position myself for those possiblities.I know many of you are way more dedicated callers than I am ,but I probably have spent more time watching coyotes behavoir as I watch them in the snow for hours while unseen and see alot that is not visible to a caller.This, along with lots of tracking and seeing what they are reacting to as they travel adds a little bit to what I "think" whether right of wrong.Thanks

[ February 13, 2007, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 12, 2007, 06:39 AM:
 
6mm264,
thank you for correcting my malapropism I did not know the difference and
I honestly appreciate that.
I enjoyed the rest of your post also.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 12, 2007, 06:44 AM:
 
6mm204: "I am always amazed at hunters thinking the coyote is thinking this or that because of what they themselves think."

EXACTLY!!!! You nailed it 6mm. You're obviously a student of the Coyote to the point where you know where speculation starts and facts end. You probably don't have anything to sell either do you?

Why delve into "why they reacted" when you can't prove it? What matters is that they reacted. CONDITIONED RESPONSE! It sounded like something that enticed him instead of trying to fool the masses with a "whiz bang" original "estrous" concept.

The coyote language is so complex that there is no way in hell anyone that knows anything about coyotes can imply why they respond to a new sound without a lot of observation. What matters is that they respond.

Tim: "Maybe I'm just a thick headed Dick, but I can't follow you on the problem with the concept."

Very simple Tim, I believe the entire "estrous" concept is bullsh*t and misleading. It implies the reason coyotes respond and that is unproveable. I believe less experienced callers deserve better than to be misled by those in search of "originality".

I have no doubts that this new sound will attract coyotes as will many other new sounds. The issue is not trying new sounds but make no mistake, that will be and has been the spin since the concept cannot be proven.

I have serious doubts that a coyote thinks, "hey, I just heard an estrous chirp" so instead of being honest and saying, "I don't know why the coyotes respond to this sound or what they think it is, but they do respond", these "quest for originality" seekers try to convince the masses that they know WHY a coyote responded, hence "estrous chirp". I call bullshit!

Tim: "Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but I am reading of guys who are trying to make a different than normal sound on a caller, and it's bringing in coyotes to be shot."

Why would I have a problem with that? That's not my issue of contention Tim, I simply dislike it when someone thinks they know so much more than they can prove.

Tim: "What am I missing here?"

What you are missing is those who claim to know "WHY" a coyote responded by throwing out some original concept like "estrous chirp" to dazzle the less informed.

sly: "Quite walkin around with your feeler hurt. I promise the next new sound we come up with will be named after you....... Trust me I will think of a good name.....LOL"

I bet it won't be the "lemming chirp".

~SH~
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 12, 2007, 07:07 AM:
 

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I'm glad there is at least enough independent thinkers (dicks) out there that question the concept of an "estrous chirp" and whether it has any more value than other more common vocalizations.

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What happens when you start to produce "Estrus chirps" all year long.Using the thinking Process you give a coyote,don't you think he will question the "estrus chirps" when used in the summertime."Hmmm wait a minute breeding season isn't for another 7 months,somethings not right."lol Good Hunting Chad

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BTW, your personal perception of an "Estrous chirp" is incorrect, as is most everyone elses who has posted on these threads.

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Yeah, right. Attention fellow mind readers......Let's see if we can't slice this a little thinner.

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Yeah, right.
Let's see how thin we can slice this on a dedicated thread. I'm not smart enough to chase it on the two current threads at the same time.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 12, 2007, 01:12 PM:
 
smithers,

You're probably right the sound probably does play off one of the options you mention.LOL Territory,sex,hunger,or curiosity,hell it could be all four.Point is you don't know do you.It's gone from a "Sexual(demand for breeding)Chirp",to more of a "sharp bark" that means a "challenge/tresspass".Which is it.Again you don't know.That's the point we've been trying to make.

Example 1:Fact-I have been using this new sound for calling coyotes,it's 4 chirps/sharp barks,and man have I been calling the coyotes in.They seem to really repond to this new sound.

Example 2:False Conclusion-I have been using this new sound called an "Estrus Chirp" it's 4 chirps/sharp barks that sound like or imitate a female coyote in heat demanding service from a male,and boy does it get them going,they come in hard when I use this call.

See the difference.Good Hunting Chad

[ February 12, 2007, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on February 12, 2007, 06:10 PM:
 
UTcaller/ Chad,

Fact: Best guesses or near- fact are all we have when it comes to any wildlife vocalization.

Fact: Only coyotes really know EXACTLY what THE SOUND means or suggests. Or do they?

Fact: I am not brash or stupid enough to pretend I know exactly what it means or suggests.

Fact: The options I laid out are the ONLY options there are in calling or trapping, for that matter. In a coyotes life, what else is there?
If you have something to add to that list we may be doing some ground breaking. Protectiveness, maybe?

Fact: I never labeled the estrus-bark-chirp-challenge some fantastic new- fangled jiggamuhwhat in coyote calling. I have used it, on occasion, and found other sounds to be more effective for me, personally.
Have a good one, Chris
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 13, 2007, 06:32 AM:
 
Smithers: "WileyE, I don't jump on the love train every time it whistles. I hunt, I read, I listen and observe. I take nuggets of info from different places and insert it, if applicable into my game plan. I don't hump the leg of every Tom, Dick and Harry coyote hunter that comes along with some grand new concept in calling. My bone of contention with you and some others is your dismissal of an idea or someone else's experience's just because of the name attached to it. What name would you have put on it? Shivering cockles? Piss chills?
Within predator calling there are 3-4 options to play on, territoriality, hunger, sex and curiosity. What else is there?
I've seen you play your game before on many occasions and I will not be taking your debate bait. Change your soggy ditey and be done with it. Have a good one"

Hahaha! We'll it's good to know that you are not in the "lemming" category.

I'm not dismissing the idea, I'm challenging the thought process that thinks they know the reason a coyote responds.

Shivering cocklers or piss chills would have had as much credibility as "estrous chirps" but it wouldn't sound quite so impressive.

What else is there? BLOOD LUST! They just flat out love to kill other animals.

Coyote #1: "Gee, I think I just heard an "estrous chirp"?

Coyote #2: "What the hell is an "estrous chirp"?

Coyote #1: "It's a new concept that these whiz bang coyote callers came up with. Let's go check it out because it might actually be a hoarse throated rabbit."

You know they come but you sure as hell don't know why and the more you learn about coyotes, the more you will realize how much you don't know.

The great thing about coyote theories is that they all have merit because coyotes can't tell you what they are thinking.

I make no apologies for challenging whiz bang theories. I've paid my dues.

~SH~

[ February 13, 2007, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2007, 07:40 AM:
 

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I make no apologies for challenging whiz bang theories. I've paid my dues.

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Well, go over to Trappnman where I have pissed off the owner because he poopooed one of my whizbang theories. lol

Good hunting. LB

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