This is topic What's your method? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2004, 10:11 AM:
It has become clear to me that there are basically two ways of handling daylight stands.
First might be locating coyotes by several means. These would include "sign" of every description, identifing certain cover, and, for the most part, howling and listening for a response. Then, approaching a stand location from the downwind side.
The second method is cold calling. Yes, looking for sign and cover where you expect to see coyotes, but otherwise having no precise information that there are coyotes in the area. No coyote vocalizations beforehand, but possibly including howling at the beginning of the stand.
Which theory do you ascribe to, and why? Remember, there are no wrong answers.
Me? I cold call, most of the time.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 20, 2004, 10:36 AM:
Finding fresh tracks and scat brings the percentages way up.
I will cold-call areas I have had good luck in the past and when I go 3-5 stands with no luck I start looking for tracks and scat again. I'll move on by passing up good areas until I start seeing the sign again.
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on December 20, 2004, 12:17 PM:
Cold Calling;
I do try and locate tracks and scat in the roadways and crick beds, but if an area looks like is should contain coyotes, I'll call it... I make alot of stupid stands, but yet many pay off better than the picture perfect set ups.
I have never really had much success calling in areas right after locating techniques... I may lock the location into the gps and come back in a few days to call as it is an area known to hold coyotes, but rarely do I call right after the process of locating...
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on December 20, 2004, 12:55 PM:
Most of my calling is "cold". We have an abundance of coyotes and when some are killed, others don't take long to move in. One thing I try to do when finding a new place to call is to locate pastures with cattle. It seems like the coyotes will not stray too far from the herd. This holds true whether they are calving or not. Of course, I'm no expert by any means.
Leonard-Are you ready for January 4th?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 20, 2004, 01:35 PM:
Cold calling all the time. My circumstances of hunting opportunity don't allow for anything else. That is, I get to go hunting on a Saturday, I usually have to drive at least two hours to get to the area, often longer. No chance for locating ahead of time.
- DAA
Posted by INDIANADOGCALLER (Member # 472) on December 20, 2004, 02:42 PM:
A little locating and a lot of cold calling. I use deer season and days when I can't hunt to locate good areas where coyotes are calling home this year. When the wind and weather finally cooperate, I try to hit the "hot" spots first, then find other areas. If the guy I hunt with the most and I finally get a night where we can hunt all evening, we will usually head out mid-afternoon and do some "quick scouting" by driving around to our spots looking for signs or dogs out sunning and then go back after dark to call. Snow's moving in. Should be some good nights ahead.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on December 20, 2004, 03:20 PM:
Both!
I do my locating before I start hunting, most of my locating is done in the spring and summer. I spend my early fall trips out scouting areas that I got vocal responces in during the sping and summer. Also keep good notes on all these things...sign,tracks,vocal responces. I will use deer season and turkey season as means of scouting to.
I will start off my calling season hunting areas that I have pre-scouted. Keeping good records of how often I call them and what goes on during the calling trips. I save my best places for fur season though. We have alot of Goverment land here so there is always new areas to hunt so I do my share of cold calling to, anytime I see a good area I will call it and check it out for sign at the same time.
We do alot of night hunting here to so I also get alot of vocal responces at night and that helps keep good tabs on new areas to. Most of the time if I get a responce in a new area, I will come back during the day and check this area out and call it. If I know a little about the area and I think I can make the stand in the new area at night with out spooking the coyotes I will.
So, I gess I do a little of both scouting and cold calling. I dont mind to cold call here in the East. The way the land lays and the terain help out alot with picking my stands anyway. I haft to hunt the thick cover and edges to kill coyotes so that has alot to do with the areas I call.
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2004, 03:46 PM:
I'm all for locating, all that scouting stuff, whenever it's possible.
What I had in mind is: where a hunter uses a lone howl for as long as it takes, and wherever it may be; until he gets a vocal response , and a fix on the location. Then he approaches that location from a downwind direction and sets up as close as possible, knowing with certainty that coyotes are very close, which requires much stealth, especially visually, but also silently.
A lot of guys do this exclusively.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2004, 03:58 PM:
And, by the way, I only locate when I'm drawing a total blank, while cold calling, and seriously need to find out where the coyotes are hiding.
In this case, I attempt to do a group howl or something other than a lone howl; something that will make them respond, including a siren.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on December 20, 2004, 04:08 PM:
I cold call too, but usually know there are coyotes in a given area, either by past stands, or areas I have been looking at to find tracks and scat.
I don't use vocalizations at all in my method, I generally know they are in an area, and don't feel the need to howl and bring attention to my location. I use a bit of stealth, not much, in getting to my stand, then use distress sounds.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 20, 2004, 05:16 PM:
I rarely howl to locate while calling. Coyotes respond vocally only approximately 40 percent of the time anyway. Approximately the same percentage respond with approach depending on time of day and season. Worse, howling informs all coyotes within hearing that an intruder is in the area and puts them on the alert. Hard to sneak in on them when they are watching out for you.Good way to get busted looking for a stand. I much prefer to set up on sign. Even in areas that I've called coyotes in before.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2004, 05:30 PM:
Something else, Rich. As has been mentioned by (I believe) Varmit Hunter, for instance. In some areas, they clam up, not much in the way of a vocal response, if at all. Sure, they may howl whenever they have a mind to howl, but we are talking about techniques. What is the likelyhood that a coyote will answer your solicitation. You say 40%. I think it may be dependant. Some conditions, they are very vocal. Some parts of the country they are virtually silent, maybe howling at the moon, or as I said before, at a siren or trail whistle.
But, take Scott Huber, for instance. Guess what he does. Where is he, anyway? Hanging out on Trapperman, or what?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 20, 2004, 06:13 PM:
If a guy were to rely solely on locating coyotes through howling in my region, you'd never hunt at all because you just cannot get them to talk much, if at all, around here. I can recall only three instances when I triggered a vocal response. In contrast, I am always amazed when I think back to hunting the Nebraska sandhills or the hill country of eastern Colorado at how easily we coerced the resident dogs to speak up. I've heard both Cronk and Brad H state the same thing about the coyotes in their agricultural areas.
I cold call exclusively and choose my setups based upon several different things. First, thirty years-+ of hunting coyotes in the same four county area either by calling or coursing hounds. Second, our area is fragmented tracts of coyote-type habitat with huge open expanses of winter wheat and plowed ground in between. It's much easier for me to set up looking directly at the very spot where the coyote will be, if not emerge, rather than run the risk of having them appear from enywhere in the 360. It takes me a few setups to adapt and modify my mindset when I'm smack dab in the middle of everything-looks-the-same type open country.
I'm forced to deal with literally dozens of farmers and livestock men in securing permission to hunt enough ground to last me all fall and winter, usually about 20-22,000 acres, minimum. I stay in frequent contact with them throughout the summer and fall to keep track of where they're hearing the group howls in the evening, surmising that these are reasonably secure core areas. By educating them about what kind of information I need to hunt later, they've all become pretty good at being my extra ears and by hunting season, I have a pretty good layout as to where packs are hanging and where they aren't. Correlate their first-hand account with the evidence of tracks and scat, I'm all set up to be all the more frustrated when nothing shows up. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I guess that's why they call it hunting and not killing.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 20, 2004, 06:16 PM:
Oh, and Rich, I've always surmised/ wondered if howling frequencies would be directly proportional to coyote densities, but we're currently at the highest densities I've seen in a decade and mum's the word, especially in the early morning. I guess Scott was right: Only the yippers know for sure, and they ain't talking.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 20, 2004, 06:19 PM:
Scott is still occassionaly harrassing the heathen antis on the beef board. Spends any free time working on his house. I talk to him occassionaly. We had a good discussion about intergradation of subspecies two weeks ago. I asked his permission to cut and paste the E-mails on your board and he agreed. My computer ate all of it last week. too bad.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2004, 06:27 PM:
quote:
intergradation of subspecies
If it might be anything similiar to the domestic dog, I can guess the answer. Still, it's too bad they gave you that computer without a license to operate.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on December 20, 2004, 06:51 PM:
If I were to use howling to locate coyotes here then all my hunting would be done at night, a day time responce here is very rare! Very rare! At night though is a diffrent game.But at night in this area it is almost a waist of time to try to move in close you will get busted almost every time.
I do know a couple guy that use this method to call 100% of the time. They dont even carry a destress call. They kill alot of coyotes and I would love to spend the day hunting with them or night for that matter, just for the experence!
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 21, 2004, 03:34 PM:
I guess I don't have to mention the annual dispersal, and general migratory patterns in each specific area.
I believe that entire populations of coyotes can move en mass, distances of twenty or thirty miles. This can raise hell with your scouting.
I have seen the time when there may be a valley, miles in length, and ALL the coyotes are bunched at one end. This can make cold calling very discouraging, unless you start in the right place.....AND STAY THERE!
But, my point is; you can save a lot of unproductive time by doing some real time locating. Just another tool in the shed.
I can sometimes guess where the coyotes are, like right at the snowline. Weather plays a part. After a heavy snow, I can count on the coyotes being down out of the hills and in the flats. A few honks on a howler may confirm this.
Coyotes are not tied down in specific places, sometimes you have to look around. Sort of like: are all the fish at the head of the dam, or at the inlet?
These things are not graven in stone, but it pays to be aware.
All that is well and good, but mostly, I cold call. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on December 21, 2004, 04:10 PM:
Leonard brings up a good analogy between hunting and fishing. When looking at a lake, and where you should be throwing bait, you can always figure, 90% of the fish, are in 10% of the water, you just have to find that particular 10% of the water. Same holds true for coyotes I believe. Find the 10% percent of the country that you want to call that holds coyotes, and cold call your heart out. No need to howl,yowl,yip,yap or coax estrus chirps.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 21, 2004, 04:38 PM:
The ranks of new callers are growing in leaps and bounds. Those 90% coyotes are going to be hearing Azhunters favorite tune, Cottontail 101, day after day and soon they will no longer respond. Howls, yip, yaps and estrus chirps will be among the sounds that do work. Forty years ago cottontail and jack distress calls were all that were needed to call coyotes in droves. Today call manufacturers offer a very long list of distress sounds to allow you to choose something the coyotes in your area haven't heard repeatedly.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 21, 2004, 04:46 PM:
Hey AZ. I think it would be nice if you weighed in on that thread about hitting a running coyote.
edit:
http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000032
I would like (and so would everybody else like)
to get your take on what's involved, what you try to do, or even if you don't know; it's all instinctual, or automatic. Don't be modest. Give us your best effort.
Good hunting. LB
[ December 21, 2004, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on December 22, 2004, 07:35 PM:
Finding that 10% of the country, that holds the most coyotes, is the hardest part of sucessful coyote calling. Thats the true "hunting" part of the equation. I understand the theory of those attempting to intergrate other sounds or coyote vocalizations into their hunting stradgey.
Ive seen coyotes come to the call, using sounds other than prey distress, but not near as often as when using prey distress. I don't believe they will ever become educated to, or shy away from, answering to prey distress sounds.
It can't be any other way, they are predators which feed mainly on rodents and rabbits. They are what they are, and most likely won't be changing their habits for the next thousand years or so.
Im not a believer in the "new sound" theory. Meaning that if I mimick an arctic vole in distress, the coyotes in my area will become more aggressive and hurried in their charge to the call, than if I was using my ole cottontail 101 sound. I don't think they know the difference between a jackrabbit or a cottontail or a packrat. I believe some coyotes are more excited by a high pitched sound like a cottontail, and some are turned on by the deeper, raspy sound of a jackrabbit. Probably more an individual thing, or short term memory of the last thing he sank his teeth into, and the sound it made as he grabbed it in his jaws.
Other sounds and vocalizations have all been proven to work at times, and are an interesting aside in the big picture of predator calling. For day in day out predator calling, I believe that prey distress is still the number one producer for most callers, in most parts of the country. I just don't believe that coyotes will ever become wise or educated to, and not respond to good prey distress sounds.....do you?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 22, 2004, 10:10 PM:
Yeah, I agree. That's the name of the game. The problem is when a population get's educated, or a specific individual. Then, vary the presentation, like when retrieving a lure. We don't have to "match the hatch" as a fly fisherman might do. A snowshoe hare call will call coyotes in Mexico. There is a lot to be said for talent while working a call. I believe a good caller can make sounds that attract a predator better than a rank amateur. But the rank amateur will call coyotes too.
Now, do we ever need coyote vocalizations? I went fifteen or twenty years before I took howling seriously. But, get away from prime hunting, like down where Vic lives, and it seems to work. About like a "confidence decoy" in a raft of ducks. Also, they seem to come to the distress call a little more cautiously, if they believe there is another coyote in the vecinity. But, when distress and coaxing aren't working, a lone howl can be the charm.
I don't know about howling without mixing in distress. Sure, it works, but if I left any call at home, I'd rather use a distress all day, than be without it.
Can't stress enough. Call where they are, not where they ain't.
Good hunting. (from San Rafael) LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 23, 2004, 05:13 AM:
Vic, Leonard explained it a little differently than I would and probably a little better and I think he hit it dead on. Heavy pressure is the culprit. Prime calling areas are a limited resource and any within a two hour drive of Phoenix are being hammered. Traditional sounds and basic techniques done sloppily by dilettantes are what coyotes are learning to avoid.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 23, 2004, 07:42 AM:
Leonard said,
Also, they seem to come to the distress call a little more cautiously, if they believe there is another coyote in the vecinity.
Good point, and one of the things I appreciate most about using howling versus stand alone distress calls. I can't speak to anyone else's personal experience, but by opening with howls, I seem to encourage any respondants to move in from downwind. Furthermore, they do respond more cautiously, thus slowing down the evolution of the stand and reducing the number of "Holy shit!" shots.
Just a couple weeks ago, I set up on the side of this hill and the only place I didn't have a good view of was a little bowl thru which I made my approach. I decided to stay off the howls for this stand since I'd been leaning on them pretty heavily on earlier trips and I wasn't two minutes into things when a coyote come charging in on me at my 9 where I can't shoot (shoot left handed) and skidded to a stop less then fifteen feet away while I was right in the middle of a series of squeals. At that point, caught with both hands up to the elbows in the cookie jar, all I could do was say "holy shit" as that coyote turned inside out and ran out his own bunghole getting away. You can tell the older coyotes by the style of their escape. Young ones run off standing upright at a pronking gait until they get a ways out, then they turn and look back. (They always do!) This guy was dragging his belly on the ground with his ears laid back and all four legs out to the sides like boat oars just going like hell to stay low and get back to where he came from in one piece. I gave him a "1" for sneaking up on me like that (if ya know what I mean) and a "10" for style in going away.
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on December 23, 2004, 08:50 AM:
Rich, I hear you on the pressure.... I recently drove 2hrs NW of Phoenix... Got there before daylight, only to be able to speak to 8 other callers heading down the same road.....
May have to revert back to the intown golfcourses and neighborhoods...
While I think the pressures are having an impact on what 10% of the country the coyotes are living in... when you find it... cottontail 101 is the requirement for getting a shot at a hungry coyote...
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on December 23, 2004, 06:36 PM:
Back to the question. For what it’s worth I use a combination. I generally start the day with a cold call. Which I just about always start with a howl or two. I am hoping to get a vocal response. If I get a response I will generally orient myself towards the direction the howl came from sometimes I will even move a little, twenty yards or so in order to get a better look at the anticipated direction of the coyote’s approach.
If there is no response I will continue to run the stand with full expectation of something approaching. The biggest difference being that I will usually only stay at a stand for 15 minutes or less if I get no response. If there is no response I may close the stand with a group howl and listen for a distance response. If I get a response I will often move towards the coyotes. If it is close enough I will often just wait a little longer. Sometimes all you have to move is a couple hundred yards and that will get them to come in.
When approach coyotes that have howled my goal is to approach to approx. ½ mile of where I feel the coyotes are. I find that if the coyotes are over about 1 ½ miles away they will seldom approach.
I have had great success using this method I would estimate that I am successful 75% of the time when I approach and call coyotes that have howled. Scott H. was the person that taught me this.
If I get no response I will just move to another stand and make another cold call. One advantage of living where I do is snow. Quite often you can use tracks in the snow as a fairly reliable indicator of coyote activity.
This past weekend Me and my buddy Rob went hunting using this combination we killed 20 coyotes in sixteen hours of hunting I would estimate that 30% of the coyotes killed where a result of stands that we moved to after getting distant vocal responses on another stand.
If I am hunting an area I know well I don’t consider any stand a “cold call”.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 23, 2004, 07:38 PM:
"...we killed 20 coyotes in sixteen hours of hunting..."
Damn! Better than I have EVER done. I'll say it again - Damn!
- DAA
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 23, 2004, 08:10 PM:
Albert, that is fantastic.
But I have to wonder how much better you would have done if you didn't fool with the howls and yips and yaps and just played "cottontail 101"
Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on December 23, 2004, 11:54 PM:
Cold calling all the way. If you have a good pop of predators I dont see any use in vocalizations. If you have an area that looks good call it, not every coyote will answer you. I have never had a Bobcat answer to howling yet. If you hear coyotes howling by all means try and get what you can. My thinking is if they are within earshot and not educated then they will respond to a distress sound just as well or better that vocalizations. I know it works and I have used it on several occations myself, but I still prefer the old dying rabbit. OH My the can of worms you have opened. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Great Topic
Todd
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 24, 2004, 04:49 PM:
If I'm reading right, most of you have pretty open country. For anything remotely close to my house I have to hunt clear-cuts. Western and coastal Oregon is dense fir, reprod, vine maple, alders and blackberries from hell. It's all cut up with logging roads. If I tried to 'cold call' it would be to a clearcut I had just approached with my vehicle. It doesn't work.
What does work here is to quietly cruise at night using a siren and/or lone howl about a quarter mile after I pass a big clear-cut. If I get a response I do the GPS thing and keep driving.
Last night was a case in point. They howled back in five different spots(and didn't in 25 others). Tomorrow my son and I are going to ease up close to these clear-cuts where we got responses and walk in to set up with a remote caller and fawn decoy. It doesn't seem to matter whether We use a rabbit or fawn call on the caller but we always start with a few, mouth blown, coyote howls. We never use the same call for the setup that we use to locate. We also don't hunt in the same vehicle we use to locate. My son brought it to my attention that our dog could always recognize the individual sounds of our vehicles 30 seconds before we pulled into the driveway. A coyote has to be at least that discerning.
I have a Cabelas call with a Western Rivers remote on top. On top of that is a Western Rivers remote decoy unit. The big ball at the top fits nicely inside of the belly of a feathet-flex fawn. I need to be careful that I don't get it gyrating enough to flip it off but when a coyote sees it we don't have to worry too much about being spotted in our setup 75 or so yards away.
Next week we are going over on the East side of the Cascades. It's all open country there at the base where the foothills meet the sage. Every deer on the Eastern slope winters there. The O.D.F.&W. say coyotes get at least half of the deer and antelope fawns when they drop. We've hunted this area every New Years for the last ten years. We do 'cold' calling there but we, pretty much have a captive audience. It's a kick.
The only way you can get any gear here that is predator/varmint related is on-line or driving 70 miles to Salem or farther to Portland. I hope it stays that way for a long time.
Be careful and enjoy the holidays.
Bud
A little edit here; I have a new call that I may market. My daughter recently gave birth to a beautiful little girl. That's if you can stand to listen to her squall. That is squall, not cry. My daughter is pissed at me because I taped it while we ....babysitted. I swear to God, This kid could call in a Sabre Tooth Tiger. Anyway...I'm bound to try it. Johnny Stewart is going to pay huge bucks for this one.
[ December 24, 2004, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Bud/OR ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 24, 2004, 09:59 PM:
Bud, I've called that part of Oregon and it's brutal. I like your technique for locating and calling. Tyler and I have good results howling out the windows of the truck as we drive down the dirt roads, kinda like a bunch of coyotes moving in on the home territory, really lights them up. Stop every couple of hundred yards to take a listen and see how we're doin'.
I agree with you about the decoy. Tyler and I are getting together some video for George Brint of Advanced decoy Research, maker of Predator Supreme amd Mini Supreme. (not being paid, I just like the guy) They are not of much use in open country, but like you said, are a tremendous asset in the thick stuff. They are as good as a dog there. Once a coyote locks on to one, you can stand up and dance a jig and it will ignore you. (well pretty close )
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on December 25, 2004, 08:11 AM:
Rich Higgins sent me an email and told me to check out this thread.
Against my better judgement, due to time constraints, I'll wade in.
IMO, the best line in this thread so far is,
Leonard: "Remember, there are no wrong answers."
TAKE TO THAT TO THE BANK as you read this thread because we all see the coyote calling world according to our individual experiences in our own unique areas.
First let me start by saying,
Only a fool would argue with someone else's success!
I have given trapping instructions to young trappers and callers for many years. I have always told young trappers that if they find two successful trappers that use polarized methods, that if they could figure out why each man is successful they would be smarter than both of them.
I think that advice fits here as well.
I think it's safe to say that many of us have adapted to a hunting style that best fits our particular circumstances but that hunting style may not fit someone else's circumstances.
Understanding the difference in circumstances and variables from one area and season to the next is where the real education is.
When discussing coyote behavior, I always try to draw a distinction between "Basic Instincts for Survival" and behavioral characteristics that adapt from one situation and set of circumstances to the next.
Most of us would also agree that coyotes associate the sound of gun fire with danger right? In most cases that would be correct but in Conata Basin during the time when hunters are shooting pr. dogs, coyotes associate the sound of gunfire with a happy meal. In that situation, coyotes come to the sound of gunfire. CONDITIONED RESPONSE!
MOST coyotes in MOST situations would associate the sound of a "wabbit scweam" with a happy meal. I think it's safe to say that those shoes will always fit for MOST coyotes in MOST situations.
The day MOST coyotes in MOST areas under MOST circumstances start shying away from "wabbit scweams" is the day they turn to a total vegetarian diet.
I believe the ol' "wabbit scweam" will continue to excite more coyotes in more areas under more circumstances than any other call. Why? Because that is one of their primary prey species in more parts of the country than any other. Second only to mice and voles. Why wouldn't they?
The number one reason MOST coyotes respond to a rabbit distress call is due to their natural instinct to kill. They love to kill. They live to kill. That's what coyotes do best. Their actions confirm this theory. Hunger and territorial instincts are secondary reasons. Hounds don't chase mountain lions up and down mountains out of hunger or territorial urges. It's about the instinct to hunt and kill. It's powerful stuff.
An ol' coyote hand once told me......
"If a coyote can't kill it, if he can't eat it, if he can't piss on it, and if he can't breed it, it probably doesn't interest him."
Basic instincts for survival:
1. Killing
2. Eating
3. Breeding
4. Territorial
5. Conditioned responses to their enemies
No matter where a coyote lives and dies, these basic survival instincts remain constant. Coyotes modify their behavior to fit their environment but their basic instincts for survival remain the same. Territorial behavior will modify depending on coyote population densities, prey availability, and human disturbance from one area to the next but it's still there.
MOST Coyotes in MOST areas under MOST circumstances will not become educated to actual "wabbit scweams". What they become educated to is "wabbit scweams" that don't sound like "wabbit scweams" coming from unnatural areas that would not produce "wabbit scweams" in association with dangerous noises and dangerous areas (vehicles and roads). CONDITIONED RESPONSES!
Whether or not someone is successful with howling or distress calls has more to do with how and when they use those sounds than the sounds themselves.
Most coyotes will respond to both when they are used correctly.
In defense of Vic here, Most Coyotes in Most areas under Most circumstances (sorry but that is the only way to word this accurately) will not shy from an actual "wabbit scweam" coming from a place where a coyote would naturally expect a "wabbit scweam".
70% of the coyotes in MOST coyote populations are young of the year. HOW COULD THEY GET EDUCATED TO THE SOUNDS OF NATURAL PREY???? These representatives of the population associate "wabbit scweams" with a happy meal until proven otherwise.
Now let's throw in another variable. DISTANCE OF SOUND. "Wabbit scweams" simply will not penetrate the wind like howling will. Take that to the bank too. Don't believe me, distance yourself from a partner that can do both proficiently and see for yourself.
Under the windy circumstances I call in, I can reach far more coyotes with howling than I can with "wabbit scweams". With that said, I still need to move on many of those coyotes as Albert pointed out because they simply will not pull that far with anything.
When I am competition hunting, I have goals. I want to call coyotes on 50% of my stands, I want to kill 50% of the coyotes that I see on any given day that I have access to, and I want to kill coyotes with 80% of my shots including the "lobbing shots".
I usually achieve those goals.
The only way to do that consistantly FOR ME, IN the areas that I call under the circumstances I call in is to combine howling and distress calls.
As Albert has pointed out, we just keep moving from family group to family group due to the coyotes we located on our first stand. What I locate on my first stand (adults, family group, young, etc.) determines what I use after I move on them.
Howling does tend to bias the older coyotes. Someone who strictly rabbit calls will bias the younger coyotes. Each can be successful!
I fully realize that there is certain areas at certain times of the day or year when coyotes are not vocal. In those situations, howling may not be advantageous.
The key is to know when to hold them and know when to fold them.
After this lengthy disertation, I'll answer the question with a short, "DEPENDS".
I usually locate my coyotes before calling but that may not work in your area. It worked East of Yuma, AZ for me but that was in an area and during a time of day where coyotes were comfortable howling and my howl sounds like an actual coyote howl. I'm sorry to say that many don't! A howl is not a howl!
~SH~
[ December 25, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on December 25, 2004, 12:50 PM:
Wiley E. Thanks for going against your better judgment and weighing in.
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on December 25, 2004, 07:12 PM:
Bud, you must be out Newport way then? I've called several times NE Florence in cuts and only twice called in something I saw. A doe stopped at about 20 feet because that's where she finally see me, and a coyote popped out of the middle side of a cut about 100 yards. I blew the shot. Sure like the methods you're using, sounds like some good ideas. You seem to have stuck to it instead of giving up like me and heading east for the hunts. If you don't mind I'll give your ideas a try over here too. Loren
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on December 25, 2004, 07:14 PM:
Well said Wiley E., very informative. Thanks.
I cold call most of the time. Use howls most of the time. When vocal I do locate and move on next set.
later pup
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on December 26, 2004, 09:39 AM:
Rich I have no proof but I honestly feel that we probabably would of killed less than half of those coyotes if we had just used rabbit sounds.
On the 14th of december I was out calling by myself in some pretty open country started out with a lone howl heard a group howl reply in the distance thought that they might be close enough to respond after 15 min. nothing showed. I decided to move on them. moved about 400 yards closer. when I came to the next spot that offered adequate visability I layed prone on the hill and started with a lone howl immeadiatly they answered, waited about 30 sec. and played the cottontail 101 about 1 min later I see them. I would estimate that they where close to a mile away, left the cottontail on they apprached to about half the distance and then all of a sudden they stopped approaching and decided to leave. I then tried a lone howl again. 1 stopped it's retreat and looked my way the rest continued to leave. I could see 4 coyotes at this point. This is no good o though and decided to challenge. I challenged about 10 times when all of a sudden I see that the other three had turned and finally comeing in at a run. I did nothing more and at about 250 yards they slowed downas there was a slough bottom between me and them so I put the distress back on this caused them to approach closer. In the slough bottom I kind of lost track of some of them and ended up concentrating on a couple that could see as they left the cover of the slough I shot one. I looked over and one had approached to within 50 yards of the caller but at the shot it turned tail and I never got a shot at it. Took another shot at one standing on the far side of the slough about 250 yards but I shot over top of it(I seen the snow fly).
To end the story i did manage to get one coyote, but I doubt that I would of killed any if I had relied on cottontail 101 alone.
Another short story. Rob and I set up on top of an knoll over looking a wheat field that had bush on two sides Made three lone howls and were waiting for a response. Heard a squirrel chattering in the bush about three hundred yards away told Rob we better get ready. A coyote appears 250 yards away, in the middle of the wheat field lip squeked a couple of times the coyote apprached to about 125 stopped Rob shot coyote dead. Time 45 sec. This coyote had appraoched with just the howls and come come straight to us. Young female.
What does this all mean? I am not sure but I will continue to use howling in the majority of my stands and will expect to kill many different kinds of coyotes.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 26, 2004, 12:34 PM:
quote:
...know when to hold them and know when to fold them
I fold.
Krusty 
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 26, 2004, 03:20 PM:
Hey Doggitter,
I'm in Eugene. I do most of my calling up Wolf Cr., off Territorial and into the Smith River drainage between The Siuslaw and Smith. Been hunting the area for thirty-one years and have never seen another caller other than a buddy and my family.
I look for the big clear-cuts And try to set up cross-wind. This is no big trick as the prevailing is always from the coast.
Be sure you get lion and bear tags. A great way for lion and bear is to use two vehicles and a raft. You look on the maps you'll find stretches a long way between roads as the creeks wind. Pick a place to put in and a place to pick up. Wear hip boots for the shallows(drag the raft through). You'll be floating toward the coast so the wind will always be in your face. Unless you float into the back end of a clearcut it will be thick so call about every half mile. Don't loose your train of thought. They are in there.
Since they did-in baiting and dogs, you'll never get a better chance. I use two fawn decoys(Feather Flex), one of which Is painted black. Bear don't seem to know the difference(bat blind?). I get bear and lion urine from All Predators Don't set your decoys up where they move. Remember, no moving decoys for 'big game' allowed in OR.
My oldest son got a wake-up call a couple months ago. A guy I work with had previously, accidently, called in two lions while flipping one of those 'can' deer esterous calls so my son heads out, deer hunting with a bow, esterous can in his fanny pack. He gets tired of beating the brush for deer and squats on a stump to look over this clear-cut. He pulls a sandwich out of the pack and sees the call....Why not?
He sets there, chewing and mewing, for about twenty minutes when he gets a feeling. You know the one, where someone has stepped on your grave?
He looks behind him and about 10 yards away, is a small lion(he said, 'about 60 or70 lbs'.)He lets out with a yell and starts waving his arms and the cat digs the hell out of there. I asked him why it didn't occur to him to shoot it. His answer was, 'You had to be there", whatever that means. Rule #1, If you hunt something that can eat you, take a hunting buddy,...to watch your back.
Good luck.
Bud
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on December 26, 2004, 08:28 PM:
Well, how do Bud. I'm in Elmira. I tried down Wolf Cr. a few times but most of it was up north of Swisshome/Deadwood area. You talking all these tactics is getting me fired up to give it another go-around. Taking my pop over the hill this weekend and maye I'll start taking a day here and there west too. Good to hear from someone that been having success west of us. Loren
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 27, 2004, 10:24 AM:
Hey Loren,
I'm going to e-mail you.
Bud
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