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Author
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Topic: What's your method?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2004 10:11 AM
It has become clear to me that there are basically two ways of handling daylight stands.
First might be locating coyotes by several means. These would include "sign" of every description, identifing certain cover, and, for the most part, howling and listening for a response. Then, approaching a stand location from the downwind side.
The second method is cold calling. Yes, looking for sign and cover where you expect to see coyotes, but otherwise having no precise information that there are coyotes in the area. No coyote vocalizations beforehand, but possibly including howling at the beginning of the stand.
Which theory do you ascribe to, and why? Remember, there are no wrong answers.
Me? I cold call, most of the time.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted December 20, 2004 10:36 AM
Finding fresh tracks and scat brings the percentages way up.
I will cold-call areas I have had good luck in the past and when I go 3-5 stands with no luck I start looking for tracks and scat again. I'll move on by passing up good areas until I start seeing the sign again.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted December 20, 2004 12:17 PM
Cold Calling;
I do try and locate tracks and scat in the roadways and crick beds, but if an area looks like is should contain coyotes, I'll call it... I make alot of stupid stands, but yet many pay off better than the picture perfect set ups.
I have never really had much success calling in areas right after locating techniques... I may lock the location into the gps and come back in a few days to call as it is an area known to hold coyotes, but rarely do I call right after the process of locating...
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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Brad Norman
Okie Dokie
Member # 234
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posted December 20, 2004 12:55 PM
Most of my calling is "cold". We have an abundance of coyotes and when some are killed, others don't take long to move in. One thing I try to do when finding a new place to call is to locate pastures with cattle. It seems like the coyotes will not stray too far from the herd. This holds true whether they are calving or not. Of course, I'm no expert by any means.
Leonard-Are you ready for January 4th?
Posts: 298 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted December 20, 2004 01:35 PM
Cold calling all the time. My circumstances of hunting opportunity don't allow for anything else. That is, I get to go hunting on a Saturday, I usually have to drive at least two hours to get to the area, often longer. No chance for locating ahead of time.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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INDIANADOGCALLER
PAKMAN
Member # 472
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posted December 20, 2004 02:42 PM
A little locating and a lot of cold calling. I use deer season and days when I can't hunt to locate good areas where coyotes are calling home this year. When the wind and weather finally cooperate, I try to hit the "hot" spots first, then find other areas. If the guy I hunt with the most and I finally get a night where we can hunt all evening, we will usually head out mid-afternoon and do some "quick scouting" by driving around to our spots looking for signs or dogs out sunning and then go back after dark to call. Snow's moving in. Should be some good nights ahead.
Posts: 8 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted December 20, 2004 03:20 PM
Both!
I do my locating before I start hunting, most of my locating is done in the spring and summer. I spend my early fall trips out scouting areas that I got vocal responces in during the sping and summer. Also keep good notes on all these things...sign,tracks,vocal responces. I will use deer season and turkey season as means of scouting to.
I will start off my calling season hunting areas that I have pre-scouted. Keeping good records of how often I call them and what goes on during the calling trips. I save my best places for fur season though. We have alot of Goverment land here so there is always new areas to hunt so I do my share of cold calling to, anytime I see a good area I will call it and check it out for sign at the same time.
We do alot of night hunting here to so I also get alot of vocal responces at night and that helps keep good tabs on new areas to. Most of the time if I get a responce in a new area, I will come back during the day and check this area out and call it. If I know a little about the area and I think I can make the stand in the new area at night with out spooking the coyotes I will.
So, I gess I do a little of both scouting and cold calling. I dont mind to cold call here in the East. The way the land lays and the terain help out alot with picking my stands anyway. I haft to hunt the thick cover and edges to kill coyotes so that has alot to do with the areas I call.
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2004 03:46 PM
I'm all for locating, all that scouting stuff, whenever it's possible.
What I had in mind is: where a hunter uses a lone howl for as long as it takes, and wherever it may be; until he gets a vocal response , and a fix on the location. Then he approaches that location from a downwind direction and sets up as close as possible, knowing with certainty that coyotes are very close, which requires much stealth, especially visually, but also silently.
A lot of guys do this exclusively.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2004 03:58 PM
And, by the way, I only locate when I'm drawing a total blank, while cold calling, and seriously need to find out where the coyotes are hiding.
In this case, I attempt to do a group howl or something other than a lone howl; something that will make them respond, including a siren.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted December 20, 2004 04:08 PM
I cold call too, but usually know there are coyotes in a given area, either by past stands, or areas I have been looking at to find tracks and scat.
I don't use vocalizations at all in my method, I generally know they are in an area, and don't feel the need to howl and bring attention to my location. I use a bit of stealth, not much, in getting to my stand, then use distress sounds.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 20, 2004 05:16 PM
I rarely howl to locate while calling. Coyotes respond vocally only approximately 40 percent of the time anyway. Approximately the same percentage respond with approach depending on time of day and season. Worse, howling informs all coyotes within hearing that an intruder is in the area and puts them on the alert. Hard to sneak in on them when they are watching out for you.Good way to get busted looking for a stand. I much prefer to set up on sign. Even in areas that I've called coyotes in before.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2004 05:30 PM
Something else, Rich. As has been mentioned by (I believe) Varmit Hunter, for instance. In some areas, they clam up, not much in the way of a vocal response, if at all. Sure, they may howl whenever they have a mind to howl, but we are talking about techniques. What is the likelyhood that a coyote will answer your solicitation. You say 40%. I think it may be dependant. Some conditions, they are very vocal. Some parts of the country they are virtually silent, maybe howling at the moon, or as I said before, at a siren or trail whistle.
But, take Scott Huber, for instance. Guess what he does. Where is he, anyway? Hanging out on Trapperman, or what?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 20, 2004 06:13 PM
If a guy were to rely solely on locating coyotes through howling in my region, you'd never hunt at all because you just cannot get them to talk much, if at all, around here. I can recall only three instances when I triggered a vocal response. In contrast, I am always amazed when I think back to hunting the Nebraska sandhills or the hill country of eastern Colorado at how easily we coerced the resident dogs to speak up. I've heard both Cronk and Brad H state the same thing about the coyotes in their agricultural areas.
I cold call exclusively and choose my setups based upon several different things. First, thirty years-+ of hunting coyotes in the same four county area either by calling or coursing hounds. Second, our area is fragmented tracts of coyote-type habitat with huge open expanses of winter wheat and plowed ground in between. It's much easier for me to set up looking directly at the very spot where the coyote will be, if not emerge, rather than run the risk of having them appear from enywhere in the 360. It takes me a few setups to adapt and modify my mindset when I'm smack dab in the middle of everything-looks-the-same type open country.
I'm forced to deal with literally dozens of farmers and livestock men in securing permission to hunt enough ground to last me all fall and winter, usually about 20-22,000 acres, minimum. I stay in frequent contact with them throughout the summer and fall to keep track of where they're hearing the group howls in the evening, surmising that these are reasonably secure core areas. By educating them about what kind of information I need to hunt later, they've all become pretty good at being my extra ears and by hunting season, I have a pretty good layout as to where packs are hanging and where they aren't. Correlate their first-hand account with the evidence of tracks and scat, I'm all set up to be all the more frustrated when nothing shows up. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I guess that's why they call it hunting and not killing.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 20, 2004 06:16 PM
Oh, and Rich, I've always surmised/ wondered if howling frequencies would be directly proportional to coyote densities, but we're currently at the highest densities I've seen in a decade and mum's the word, especially in the early morning. I guess Scott was right: Only the yippers know for sure, and they ain't talking.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 20, 2004 06:19 PM
Scott is still occassionaly harrassing the heathen antis on the beef board. Spends any free time working on his house. I talk to him occassionaly. We had a good discussion about intergradation of subspecies two weeks ago. I asked his permission to cut and paste the E-mails on your board and he agreed. My computer ate all of it last week. too bad.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2004 06:27 PM
quote:
intergradation of subspecies
If it might be anything similiar to the domestic dog, I can guess the answer. Still, it's too bad they gave you that computer without a license to operate.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted December 20, 2004 06:51 PM
If I were to use howling to locate coyotes here then all my hunting would be done at night, a day time responce here is very rare! Very rare! At night though is a diffrent game.But at night in this area it is almost a waist of time to try to move in close you will get busted almost every time.
I do know a couple guy that use this method to call 100% of the time. They dont even carry a destress call. They kill alot of coyotes and I would love to spend the day hunting with them or night for that matter, just for the experence!
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 21, 2004 03:34 PM
I guess I don't have to mention the annual dispersal, and general migratory patterns in each specific area.
I believe that entire populations of coyotes can move en mass, distances of twenty or thirty miles. This can raise hell with your scouting.
I have seen the time when there may be a valley, miles in length, and ALL the coyotes are bunched at one end. This can make cold calling very discouraging, unless you start in the right place.....AND STAY THERE!
But, my point is; you can save a lot of unproductive time by doing some real time locating. Just another tool in the shed.
I can sometimes guess where the coyotes are, like right at the snowline. Weather plays a part. After a heavy snow, I can count on the coyotes being down out of the hills and in the flats. A few honks on a howler may confirm this.
Coyotes are not tied down in specific places, sometimes you have to look around. Sort of like: are all the fish at the head of the dam, or at the inlet?
These things are not graven in stone, but it pays to be aware.
All that is well and good, but mostly, I cold call. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted December 21, 2004 04:10 PM
Leonard brings up a good analogy between hunting and fishing. When looking at a lake, and where you should be throwing bait, you can always figure, 90% of the fish, are in 10% of the water, you just have to find that particular 10% of the water. Same holds true for coyotes I believe. Find the 10% percent of the country that you want to call that holds coyotes, and cold call your heart out. No need to howl,yowl,yip,yap or coax estrus chirps.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 21, 2004 04:38 PM
The ranks of new callers are growing in leaps and bounds. Those 90% coyotes are going to be hearing Azhunters favorite tune, Cottontail 101, day after day and soon they will no longer respond. Howls, yip, yaps and estrus chirps will be among the sounds that do work. Forty years ago cottontail and jack distress calls were all that were needed to call coyotes in droves. Today call manufacturers offer a very long list of distress sounds to allow you to choose something the coyotes in your area haven't heard repeatedly.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 21, 2004 04:46 PM
Hey AZ. I think it would be nice if you weighed in on that thread about hitting a running coyote.
edit:
http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000032
I would like (and so would everybody else like)
to get your take on what's involved, what you try to do, or even if you don't know; it's all instinctual, or automatic. Don't be modest. Give us your best effort.
Good hunting. LB
[ December 21, 2004, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted December 22, 2004 07:35 PM
Finding that 10% of the country, that holds the most coyotes, is the hardest part of sucessful coyote calling. Thats the true "hunting" part of the equation. I understand the theory of those attempting to intergrate other sounds or coyote vocalizations into their hunting stradgey.
Ive seen coyotes come to the call, using sounds other than prey distress, but not near as often as when using prey distress. I don't believe they will ever become educated to, or shy away from, answering to prey distress sounds.
It can't be any other way, they are predators which feed mainly on rodents and rabbits. They are what they are, and most likely won't be changing their habits for the next thousand years or so.
Im not a believer in the "new sound" theory. Meaning that if I mimick an arctic vole in distress, the coyotes in my area will become more aggressive and hurried in their charge to the call, than if I was using my ole cottontail 101 sound. I don't think they know the difference between a jackrabbit or a cottontail or a packrat. I believe some coyotes are more excited by a high pitched sound like a cottontail, and some are turned on by the deeper, raspy sound of a jackrabbit. Probably more an individual thing, or short term memory of the last thing he sank his teeth into, and the sound it made as he grabbed it in his jaws.
Other sounds and vocalizations have all been proven to work at times, and are an interesting aside in the big picture of predator calling. For day in day out predator calling, I believe that prey distress is still the number one producer for most callers, in most parts of the country. I just don't believe that coyotes will ever become wise or educated to, and not respond to good prey distress sounds.....do you?
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 22, 2004 10:10 PM
Yeah, I agree. That's the name of the game. The problem is when a population get's educated, or a specific individual. Then, vary the presentation, like when retrieving a lure. We don't have to "match the hatch" as a fly fisherman might do. A snowshoe hare call will call coyotes in Mexico. There is a lot to be said for talent while working a call. I believe a good caller can make sounds that attract a predator better than a rank amateur. But the rank amateur will call coyotes too.
Now, do we ever need coyote vocalizations? I went fifteen or twenty years before I took howling seriously. But, get away from prime hunting, like down where Vic lives, and it seems to work. About like a "confidence decoy" in a raft of ducks. Also, they seem to come to the distress call a little more cautiously, if they believe there is another coyote in the vecinity. But, when distress and coaxing aren't working, a lone howl can be the charm.
I don't know about howling without mixing in distress. Sure, it works, but if I left any call at home, I'd rather use a distress all day, than be without it.
Can't stress enough. Call where they are, not where they ain't.
Good hunting. (from San Rafael) LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 23, 2004 05:13 AM
Vic, Leonard explained it a little differently than I would and probably a little better and I think he hit it dead on. Heavy pressure is the culprit. Prime calling areas are a limited resource and any within a two hour drive of Phoenix are being hammered. Traditional sounds and basic techniques done sloppily by dilettantes are what coyotes are learning to avoid.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 23, 2004 07:42 AM
Leonard said,
Also, they seem to come to the distress call a little more cautiously, if they believe there is another coyote in the vecinity.
Good point, and one of the things I appreciate most about using howling versus stand alone distress calls. I can't speak to anyone else's personal experience, but by opening with howls, I seem to encourage any respondants to move in from downwind. Furthermore, they do respond more cautiously, thus slowing down the evolution of the stand and reducing the number of "Holy shit!" shots.
Just a couple weeks ago, I set up on the side of this hill and the only place I didn't have a good view of was a little bowl thru which I made my approach. I decided to stay off the howls for this stand since I'd been leaning on them pretty heavily on earlier trips and I wasn't two minutes into things when a coyote come charging in on me at my 9 where I can't shoot (shoot left handed) and skidded to a stop less then fifteen feet away while I was right in the middle of a series of squeals. At that point, caught with both hands up to the elbows in the cookie jar, all I could do was say "holy shit" as that coyote turned inside out and ran out his own bunghole getting away. You can tell the older coyotes by the style of their escape. Young ones run off standing upright at a pronking gait until they get a ways out, then they turn and look back. (They always do!) This guy was dragging his belly on the ground with his ears laid back and all four legs out to the sides like boat oars just going like hell to stay low and get back to where he came from in one piece. I gave him a "1" for sneaking up on me like that (if ya know what I mean) and a "10" for style in going away.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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