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Author
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Topic: Black Coyotes
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted November 29, 2004 08:49 PM
Maybe it's just me. But I keep seeing more and more posts about people killing black coyotes. Either while hunting, or trapping.
It bothers me to see this. Why is it that I never hear and old hunter or trapper talking about killing one?
Maybe an evolutionary change that is bringing more and more of them out?
My fear is that most of these black "Coyotes" wore a flea collar last summer.
I've seen a few black coons, but then for several years, I took 300+ each year, I found striped and white coons too.
Does the number of black coyotes taken in the last few years bother anyone else?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 29, 2004 10:02 PM
I don't know? Black and white, same thing. I've seen a couple blonde coyotes and two black coyotes. Didn't get to kill any of them.
Re-tread story. We (and this was in Monitor Valley, Danny) were driving along and this good size dust devil was working our way.
So, we halted, and waited for it to do what ever. It started following the edge of the gravel road, toward us and when it was about one hundred yards, we started cranking up the windows, and suddenly a coyote jumped out of a culvert, all dazed and confused.
I made a move for a gun, but for some reason my partner stopped me, claimed it was a shepard dog: we had passed one of those strange looking wagons they live in, just a ways down the road.
I disagreed, and we argued as the dust devil left us, and suddenly, that coyote noticed the truck and made body language.
Suddenly, my partner grabbed the same rifle that he had stopped me from using, and killed that coyote; right now.
That was about the prettiest coyote pelt I have ever seen. Actually looked like one of those Collie dogs with three colors, black and tan and white; very distinctive markings.
He had killed plenty of coyotes, but we both agreed that this particular one deserved to be mounted, and that's what he did. Made up into a real nice rug.
As far as Monitor Valley, last I was there, a couple years ago, didn't see many coyotes, mostly pronghorns. Thirty years ago, there were never antelope in that valley, but I have to agree, it's suitable habitat. And, the hills around there, especially to the east hold plenty lion.
Good hunting. LB
[ November 29, 2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 30, 2004 04:58 AM
That's just one more thing that I'm confused about. I've never seen a black coyote. I do have a photo of a solid white coyote that I took a few years ago. These strange color phases seem to be more common with the eastern coyote. Tom Bechdel has a few pelts that he uses in his seminars and three of them I would never guess to be coyotes. One is solid black, as black as a labrador, white throat patch. Tom said DNA tests came back 100 percent coyote. I would like to talk to an old furbuyer. Is this a relatively recent phenomenon, or have they been seeing these pelts forever?
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Jeff Thomason
Knows what it's all about
Member # 440
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posted November 30, 2004 08:00 AM
I was thinking about this guys. Maybe there have always been this many different color phases, but since this sport has grown to be so popular, maybe we are just seeing more dogs in general. Also Technology helps a little on this subject. If somebody killed a black one in Oklahoma, then I might never hear about it. But thanks to great websites like this one, we all get to hear about it. Just my 2 cents, But I could be way off the mark. Maybe there are more now than ever before.
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Texas Predator Pursuit
Day/Night Hunting Video w/50 hunts
www.texaspredatorpursuit.com
Posts: 43 | From: Texas | Registered: Nov 2004
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted November 30, 2004 10:16 AM
I've been lucky enough to see several black coyotes both in the wild and in taxidermy shops. Even called in and shot one a few years back. Got it on video too. However I have never seen one in West Texas or ever heard of them anywhere else but in the East. Something else I have noticed about Eastern coyotes is greater variance in colors from one to the next. They vary somewhat in color out West but not to the degree that the Eastern coyotes do. I wonder if this has anything to do with maybe being a hybrid coyote/wolf or hybrid coyote/dog. I have seen videos and pictures of wolf packs with many different colored wolves in a single pack. My theory is that it is just a seperate subspecies of coyote and that this is just one of its features that seperates it from the other subspecies. I know that it has been proven that dogs and coyote have produced "coydogs" but I tend to believe this is a very rare occurance and probably happens in areas where coyotes are just expanding into new territory and the coyote numbers are low, such as in their expansion East. I honestly believe where there is an established coyote population not much if any cross breeding occurs. Call it a hunch. None of the black coyotes I have ever seen had any characteristics that were not totally coyote only their coat was a different color. I have also seen many black squirrel's, are we to assume that they are a cross with a black cat? These color phases are in my opinion just that. Lots of other species have color phases that are more predominant in certain regions (ie. black bears, jaguars, and leopords).
Just my .02 worth
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted November 30, 2004 10:41 AM
I just sent a pic of a black coyote to Leonard to post here for me. It was taken by a friend of mine from indiana. Tim also knows this guy as Bob Wendt a live trapper from Indiana. Bob caught two of these black coyotes on the same day at the same location just about 3 or 4 weeks ago. He has taken 20 coyotes from this location so far to date. Only two showed the black gene. He sold both of these coyotes to a taxidermist for $175 each. Coyotes do have color phases. Just like red fox do. Racoons do too. So do squirrels,rabbits,mink,otter, beaver, and a bunch of other animals. I have taken coyotes that looked more like a red fox than a red fox does. I have taken both red coons as well as jet black(Fisher) coon. It is only a gene that is throwed to produce a particular color phase. Cross a red fox with a silver fox and and you get a Cross fox. Breed the Cross fox back to a red and It may only throw the Silver fox gene and produce only one Silver fox pup, or none. Yet 3 generations later produce a whole litter of Silvers and Crosses from a pair of true reds! Breed one of the Cross fox back to a Silver and you may get all Reds again with no silver or Crosss! Nature is truely amazing. I hope the pic comes out.
steve
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Blak coyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 415
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posted November 30, 2004 10:59 AM
Steve,I seen them pics,pretty cool.Your also right about colors,and actually there are roughly 43 different colors for Red fox,rangeing from plain old red fox to a gunmetal blue called a saphire,I have worked with AI breeding with redfox and you can get alot of amazing colors this way.In the wild it's basically what you described.I think some of the other colors may happen in the wild,but due to complications due to the mutation they dont survive long enough to grow up.
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Bad dog no biscuit
Posts: 22 | From: N.E.WI. | Registered: Oct 2004
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted November 30, 2004 11:38 AM
I once saw a nature show that was talking about color phases of farmed furbearers.
They found that diet had some effect, but that stress and aggression had a greater effect on coloring.
In cages that were more isolated the colors were more like in the wild, but in cages that ajoined and with mostly male foxes, color phases became more "pied" and widely variant.
And that happened without the introduction of genes from outside the usual pool.
They found they had similar results with farmed mink as well.
The eastern coyote seems, to me, to live a higher stress lifestyle. With more interaction with humans, pets, and civilization in general.
Pehaps it's this stress/aggression?
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted November 30, 2004 12:43 PM
Byron. I strongly agree with you about our Coyotes down here. I have seen packs running together that do look like Wolf packs.
The pack across the road has a red one, And one that is almost pure white. I have never seen a black one. I see a lot of chocolates just like a Lab.
Do you remember were my two story trailer was?. I got a call last night from a 72 year old rancher that really knows Coyotes that lives in that aria. He said he saw a Coyote that will go 80 pounds. He put both his cow dogs on it. They both had to be stitched up. As soon as this wind lays I am going to have to go take a look. He is seldom wrong with his information.
Orange County was one of the places they traped the last of the pure Red Wolfs. I think they may have missed one.
Ronnie
[ November 30, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: varmit hunter ]
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted November 30, 2004 01:08 PM
Ronnie
Hope you get him. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Predator Down
Knows what it's all about
Member # 453
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posted November 30, 2004 06:01 PM
I have seen several black coyotes and even had my wife tell me of a place where she saw one on her way to work. i did not kill but a buddy did and it was caught on film and will be on our video when its done.
Posts: 10 | From: oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 30, 2004 07:11 PM
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, PD. Glad to have you on board.
I'm sure we all look forward to the release of your video. Why don't you put a link to your website in your signature?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted November 30, 2004 07:42 PM
I once called and saw a black coyote for 2, 3, or 105 minutes.... not sure exactly how long because I would have bet my paycheck that it was black and it had a normal gray one about 40 yards in front of it.
I was lucky enough to wait out the gray one and shoot the black one at a very close range.
After shooting it I was not as impressed by its' color as I was by its' teeth.
It wasn't exactly black and it wasn't anything but a coyote... based on appearances only. It was a female and I have pictures of her laying beside a "normal" gray female coyote.
Shot in Feb. a couple of years ago - she's about 2/3 the size of a normal female, very dark in color, has black legs like a red fox, every other physical feature you could ever name 100% coyote.
Color too dark for a normal coyote and teeth too big for her yap, beyond that she sure looks like a run of the mill coyote. Right after daylight on a fresh snow she sure looked black, tho.....
Methinks its' still just a coyote...
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 30, 2004 09:32 PM
This is what Steve Craig sent, I don't know if it's supposed to be alive, or what. Let's have him explain it......
[ November 30, 2004, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted December 01, 2004 05:49 AM
Thats a heck of a picture Steve.
I have never seen or heard of a black coyote in this country, although I do know a trapper down by Douglas took a white one a few years ago. I seen several pictures, and I wouldn't define it as a albino, but it was pretty white.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted December 01, 2004 05:55 AM
Thanks Leonard.
Again, like I said in my last post. Bob Wendt from Indiana, a live market trapper, caught 2 of these guys on the same day at the same location. He took 20 coyotes off of this one hog operation. He has been trapping this location for 8 or 10 years and the most he ever caught was 8 in one season. Then this year 20 and 2 of them were black. He said he sold them both for way too little money at $175 each to a Taxidermist. He was offered as high a $500 each after he had already made the deal with Taxidermist #1, but being the standup guy he is sold them both for the $175. He caught the entire litter and both blacks were big pups. The parents were normal colored coyotes.
Tim,
He caught them not far from your old stomping grounds. Mine too for that matter.
Steve
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted December 01, 2004 06:10 AM
Cal,
This is the first true black coyote I have seen. I have never seen a live white coyote, but have seen a strecthed and dried one though. I saw first hand this past August in Wy., Bob Wendt catch about 20 Cross fox there. I even helped him load those suckers on his trailer for the trip back to Indiana! Amazing number of Crosses for one location for sure. I have taken several albino coon in my life. Pink nose and and toes and all.
Steve
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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brent Saxton
unknown comic
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posted December 01, 2004 01:49 PM
Gang! Now thats pretty!
I been hunting a black one here...solid black! And it is running with a red and blond femal. I have only called this area once sofar this year. I called it early in the year and havent been back yet. They are seen regularly by the land owner. I was standing on his front porch talking with him and they crossed a fied in front of us! I cant get back in there calling till after deer season! Im hoping none of the deer hunters kill them, I want them on video! I will be back in there in a couple weeks. They were both large coyotes (body size).
My qestion is what kind of pups did they have? Will they be diffrent colors or regular color? Anyone know how this works?
Brent
[ December 01, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
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Blak coyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 415
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posted December 01, 2004 10:44 PM
quote:
By Keekee:My qestion is what kind of pups did they have? Will they be diffrent colors or regular color? Anyone know how this works?
They can have both.There pups even if there normal colored can throw black.Because they carry the gene,and it's a greater chance for the normal colored to throw black if they breed with a black gene carrier if they themself carry the gene.
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Bad dog no biscuit
Posts: 22 | From: N.E.WI. | Registered: Oct 2004
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