This is topic Looking for someone who uses solunar tables in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 28, 2004, 07:50 PM:
Not saying why, but I want to "speak" with anyone that uses and likes them for predator hunting. Anyone?
[ August 02, 2004, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on July 28, 2004, 08:47 PM:
I dont use the solunar tables, but I do use and hunt by the moon phases. Still working on the theories at this time, but there is a patern that has been developing. Especially on certain species.
Steve
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2004, 08:50 PM:
Dittos, what Steve said.
I find the Solunar tables most helpful, after the fact.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 28, 2004, 09:00 PM:
Yeah, I agree with both. I gave the solunar tables a good shot for a time but the coyotes didn't read the same tables that I did and I could see no relevance. Moon phases are a different story. I believe they have a profound affect on coyote behavior, I do not believe they have any influence on coyote vocalizations.
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on July 28, 2004, 09:40 PM:
Y'all have any routinely logged data to back up these profound affects that you notice or anything from the scientifc literature to support it ?
What all behaviors are the profound affects you see and does these behaviors even truely matter to a joe-average yote or bobcat caller trying to call one in ?
Before y'all ask, no, I aint got any significnat amount of logged data or scientific literature to say they dont matter significantly. Which kinda puts us in the same rowboat, only Im on the bow and you the stern.
Problem with looking at tables and things after the fact is it tends to only be done when you do really good or you do really bad, and not all the time, which aint a fair way look at it.
Seems to us round here that theres bigger influences on the yotes to worry about than the farmers almanac or moon phases being a primary influence to calling success
Now I aint from Missouri but you still gotta SHOW ME. heh heh.
Thank ya kindly.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2004, 11:56 PM:
Well, El Paso is a bit skeptic, which is fine. Been there, done that; a time or two.
I knocked my head against the wall, swam upstream for many years, but the patterns became clear to me, and that's the only one I know that needs convincing. Besides, free advice is worth what you pay for it. If you want the actual data, well...
There will always be the buck or the lunker shot/hooked at high noon, and all the other oddities that can and will happen, if you spend enough time in the woods.
My first conviction was that night hunting predators was, by far superior, under a new moon.
DAY hunting, my feeling is that both extremes full moon and new moon are the best, give or take a day or so either side.
Can you kill a coyote at any other time? I guess so, but I'm looking at the exceptional days, the days when they are really running strong.
I don't think there is much question that fish bite some days, and don't bite much on other days.
I feel that it's the same with predators. Weather always plays a part, but when all the indicators are there, it makes for some exceptional hunting. The moon is a factor. I'm convinced of it.
Good hunting. LB
edit: rereading the above post, a couple words caught my eye: "joe-average caller". As always, go hunt when you can. I've been known to hunt on bad moon phases. As the man said; it's better than working; right? But, if you are looking for the best odds for success, pay attention to the moon phases. If you can go hunting any day next month, but only one day, I'd suggest either a new moon or a full moon.
[ July 29, 2004, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on July 29, 2004, 09:09 AM:
Talk is cheap. Lets see the math. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Ol grandad used to say ya shouldnt try to pass off art, for science. Im willing to believe if you can demonstrate a clean method of data gathering, and can show me the numbers.
Right now it sounds like another one of the opiates that folks use to make themselves feel better when they feel the need to explain things that they cant, which is what makes most of us human. Expected.
Im purdy sure at some points in time Rain Dances and Virgin Sacrifices were all considered major influences also (not on yote calling). Im giving that as workin example I aint being rude or nuthin. Im sure we could do the math there too, and therd be argument.
I would like to know how all the other varibles are eliminated, so that you KNOW with reasonable confidence and competence, that the only affecting difference is the moon phase or solunar table, and to what extent it is important.
How do you measure true success ? Total numbers killed ? Total ones that you SAW ?
If I kill 5 yotes instead of 2, that seems purdy big difference. If 20 yotes heard me, when the 5 came in and got killed, but on the trip wheres I got 2, only 4 yotes were able to hear me, now which is more successful response rate. In real world, How do either of us KNOW how many yotes DID hear us. I dont think the yotes sit next to the same tree all day everyday, they move around and some get removed. Listening for howls probably only gives a feller a rough estimate at best.
The more variables, means that you gotta do more testing. I just aint convinced that enough clean data has been gathered and logged without a fella trying to use data to prove what he WANTS to believe.
Like I say, were in the same rowboat, since I aint got the numbers to prove the opposite. My talk is just as cheap as y'alls I spose.
Thank ya again.
[ July 29, 2004, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: elpasotbagger ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2004, 11:00 AM:
When it comes to Blackjack, everybody has a fool proof plan....that won't work.
Whether you are discussing the stock market, or Astrophysics, some can read the tea leaves, and some will want proof, upon proof, upon proof, and then it becomes a waste of time, for everybody.
Consider: figures lie, and liars figure. A column of data can be presented in such a way to prove both sides of an arguement.
The word is; Enlightenment, Grasshopper. Sometimes no amount of "proof" will convince. You can either accept what others have to say, or pursue your own theory.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on July 29, 2004, 12:07 PM:
"Salvation" for sale... ?
Well y'all just shored up my current position on the subject right there, thanks for the patient and polite indulgment.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 29, 2004, 12:29 PM:
ElPaso, you made some good points and it's obvious that you've spent some time with John Alcock's text(biology degree?) but this is where you jumped the track.
"The more variables, means that you gotta do more testing. I just aint convinced that enough clean data has been gathered and logged without a fella trying to use data to prove what he WANTS to believe."
You see my goal is not to determine proof that something works but rather to determine if something works or not regardless of the proof.
If you flip heads 100 times in a row you would be a fool not to bet the farm on the next toss despite the fact that statistically you still have only a 50-50 chance. It's working for you today.
If over a period of many years it becomes apparent that one fourth the number of coyotes come to the call on the day after a full moon than normally respond the day after a new moon then a solunar table, a research paper or a biologist's model that contradicts my experience will have little credence in my area at this particular time. I much prefer the personal observations of hunters with long experience to the crunched numbers of anyone else with unknown agenda.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2004, 01:08 PM:
Well, yeah.
The thing is, I'm more interested in hunting coyotes than logging data. No amount of scientific data will convince me that high noon is the best time to hunt coyotes. I'm not suggesting that such data exists, but if it did, and didn't square with my own observations, I wouldn't give it much validity; at least for my purposes.
On the other hand, the scientific community is just as guilty of attempting to "prove" their preconceived concepts.
I have read stuff from the academics that I do not agree with. If you want to become completely jaded, watch the endless parade of "expert" witnesses, for the defense and the prosecution, in a court room; contradicting each other. It gets ridiculous. The lawyers shop around until they find somebody to swear on a stack of Bibles that black is white.
If you want to know something about hunting coyotes, for starters, talk to coyote hunters. Sure, you will get different opinions. As the jury, you still need to separate the wheat from the chaff.
That's as clear as I can be, and you can be assured that I have some experience with the subject.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 29, 2004, 01:22 PM:
Personally, I think the theory is very sound and valid, when it come to animal movement and activity. The problem is that it might only be 10-15%(if that) of the puzzle or the success equation. You can't expect to call coyotes under a primary solunar period if your calling timbers and the coyotes are actually,1-2 miles away, in the corn. Try to control the varibles that you can, and I think in the long run it will pay off.
Dennis
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on July 29, 2004, 03:32 PM:
If you want data get a copy of...Factors influencing the efficiency of fixed wing aerial hunting for coyotes in the western United States..Hunts conducted during a new moon killed significantly fewer coyotes than hunts conducted on quarter or full moons with full moons being the best.Findings on this factor also are consistent with odservations of the success of calling and shooting coyotes for livestock protection;animals are more responsive to calls during days of a full moon...This was collected by WS pilots in five western states.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 29, 2004, 03:41 PM:
Rob, Where might a guy get a copy of the information you are talking about? I'm always impressed and amazed with your knowledge about where just about anything ever written about predators can be found.
Thanks
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on July 29, 2004, 04:03 PM:
Rich Higgins said,
If over a period of many years it becomes apparent that one fourth the number of coyotes come to the call on the day after a full moon than normally respond the day after a new moon then a solunar table, a research paper or a biologist's model that contradicts my experience will have little credence in my area at this particular time. I much prefer the personal observations of hunters with long experience to the crunched numbers of anyone else with unknown agenda. (end)
If some fella has that information logged down, and they have hunted at all (or at least randomly across) moon and solunar phases with equal effort over time, and recorded all of it equally as well, and theres a repitive linear correlation shown, then I would like to see it. If multiple fellas from different areas want to show that data, all the better.
If the effect is so profound, there should be a linear correlation easily demonstrated on paper. So, lets see it. Otherwise is just Raindancing.
Historically relying on eyewitness testimony (possibly relating to personal observations of hunters ?) is prolly even more dangerous than the trial experts as noted by Leonard. Memories get fuzzy and selective. Like mine did on Sample size required and the number of variables, and I thank ya for catchin that.
"The rooster crows so that the sun will rise." This is what Im tyring to avoid. I am interested to say what else y'all have to say, since you know what I think now, Ill keep from hogging all your space.
[ July 29, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: elpasotbagger ]
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on July 29, 2004, 04:05 PM:
"Factors influencing the efficiency of fixed wing aerial hunting for coyotes in the western United States."
Thank ya much, Ill check it out
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nwrc/is/02pubs/maso021.pdf
http://www.coyoteaction.org/coyote/coyoteresearch.htm
Leonard and Rich Higgins aint gonna like this.
BEGIN
Hunts conducted during a new moon killed significantly fewer coyotes than hunts on conducted on quarter or full moons. These differences may reflect the realative success of night hunting by coyotes (skip) Resulting in more daylight hunting by coyotes and consequently increased vulnerability to aerial shooting.
(Skip) Consistent with observations of CALLING SUCCESS during days of a full moon.
END
interesting in that it contradicts y'alls results ?
[ July 29, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: elpasotbagger ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2004, 04:47 PM:
quote:
My first conviction was that night hunting predators was, by far superior, under a new moon.
DAY hunting, my "feeling" is that both extremes full moon and new moon are the best, give or take a day or so either side.
I tyhink you better reread what I said. I said that the first thing I decided was that night hunting under a new moon was significantly better. Then I said words to the effect that new moon and full moon were good times to hunt in the daytime. I am not sold on that. But I normally hunt full moon and new moon and have done well. Other factors may be at work, such as weather, such as....a lot of variables.
But, again. That published data refers to arial gunning, WHICH IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN CALLING COYOTES. They may be out there, but not inclined to answer a call, but easily spotted from an airplane.
But, again. That published data refers to arial gunning, WHICH IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN CALLING COYOTES. They may be out there, but not inclined to answer a call, but easily spotted from an airplane.
I actually see nothing that refutes my words. While Rob's data is always welcome, and I am too amazed at some of the things he finds; it's too late in the game for me to change my concepts based on information from people who may, or may not know anything about hunting coyotes from the ground.
Goodf hunting. LB
[ July 29, 2004, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on July 29, 2004, 05:18 PM:
Leonard I don't doubt your findings at all I know you do alot of night hunting and that's a whole different ball game...I've never hunted at night so I don't have a clue..and I can't comment on the study cuz I don't keep track of that stuff..I just go callin when I get the chance...I posted that study so the members could kick it around
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2004, 05:44 PM:
Rob, I realize that, nothing I say should be taken as a reflection on your contributions, which are substantial, and appreciated.
What I might point out is that I live in the city, and always plan a hunt around the best night hunting, which, for me, is a new moon. When driving a considerable distance, I also hunt the daylight hours, and have a lot of experience hunting daylight, under a new moon.
If, however, I plan a day hunt, I usually try to coincide with a full moon, all things being equal; and completely forget hunting at night. It's not because the coyotes are not active at night during a full moon, but because they can see you so easily, and are extremely wary.
But, you can't put these animals in a box and tie it up with pretty ribbons. Compared to virgin sacrifices, the considered opinion of a veteran coyote hunter is a little more reliable.
For a number of years, I have generously offered the best advice that I am capable of offering. Look around, and see exactly who is contributing information of value, no strings attached. Really look hard at some things said by folks that know what they are doing. Actual, usable, valid information is slim pickins; usually for fear of contradiction. That bothers me not at all. But for those that DEMAND some kind of proof, be thankful for the free advice.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 29, 2004, 06:29 PM:
I'm gonna toss a thought in here about the issue that EPTB has brought against Leonard's firsthand experience. And to properly appreciate my contribution, I'll refer, though not by author or title, to a study conducted during my college days by my advisor that found that small mammal movements were significantly less during times of both full and new moons. They didn't correlate these findings so much with solunar factors. Rather, they hypothesized that the mammals were aware that under the full moon, they were more visible and, thus, more vulnerable to predation. Under a new moon, in no light-type conditions, same thing, because they felt, the rodents were unable to see comfortably enough to move freely about without feeling too vulnerable. However you want to look at it, I don't see that these hypotheses are too far of a stretch and they do make sense, consistent with their findings. What in the hell does that have to do with Leonard's findings?
teabagger's references are relative to aerial gunning success - a far cry from calling results. The plane is, in effect, going to the coyote, compared to calling the coyote to you. Coyotes don't have to be hunting to be vulnerable to aerial gunners. They just have to be within sight.
Now, Leonard's experience tells him that night hunting under a new moon is a good time. I can see that. Low prey movement periods would lead the coyote - the ecological economist from hell - to forego any long hunting ventures simply because the food just ain't there to be got. Why waste the calories looking for what ain't there? On the other hand, if a free meal presents itself, why not get it done? Coyote still gets just as hungry every 24 h in the dark as he does under a quarter moon. It's just that the opportunistic side of the beast comes more into play on those dark nights and it strikes me as strategically advantageous for the experienced caller to exploit that motivation. In other words, the coyote may not be hunting because it's not to his advantage to do so, but if given the chance, he'll eagerly take free food. Just my .02.
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on July 29, 2004, 09:17 PM:
Show me the money.....and then I will show you the math.
I tell my students that pay VERY good money for the knowledge I have, to keep what THEY have payed for to themselves. It is to their advantage to do so. After all, I payed for some of that knowledge from other hunters and trappers over many years, and it was ALL money well spent. Personal instruction does pay for itself. Maybe at some point in my life I will begin to release some of that information that makes me a good living, because as a fellow gets older, he wants to leave something behind. It is the reason I am writing my book on calling lions. The book is on hold at this time due to a change in course , to do a video, to begin filming in approximately 3 weeks. The release date is not available at this time. I have all but stopped my GUIDED hunts, as I only consentrate on doing INSTRUCTIONAL hunts. This is where my true joy comes from, and that is seeing a student call up his first lion, lynx,bear, bobcat or even a coyote or fox. So, my video will be an instructional type video as well.
Looks like I got off track from my original thought. Sorry Leonard.
My point was that.....you get what you pay for. It is just a simple question of deciding what it is worth to you. There is nothing free in this life. I know what I can do under certain moon phases and with certain species. It happens over and over too many times to not look hard at the why. Some individuals are always wanting something for nothing, and if they dont get it( or cant do it themselves) then it just cant be done. I have seen this mentality rear its ugly head for more than 30 years. Just because they cant do it, it just cant be done. It just boils down to being ignorant. Nothing wrong with being ignorant,,, it just means you dont know enough about a certain subject...AT THIS TIME! Sometimes the why is not what we should be asking. Sometimes we just need to accept the fact that you can call lions(on a consistant basis) at 12 noon when under a full moon phase. AND, you can call more coons under the 1st and 3rd quarters at night than you can under the full or new moon. The why is not important. The fact that someone found out this happens more often than not, is what needs our attention. It is then up to us to put it into practice. Then the WHY comes into play! WHY can this guy call more coons than me and WHY can he call more lions than me? At that point in time, he may have/want/or need to buy the video, buy the book, or take instruction and he will then learn the WHY. BUT, anyway you cut it, he will have to pay his share. All real knowledge comes at a cost. We just have to decide if, to gain more knowledge, we are willing or want to pay for it. Some never do and end up staying on the outside looking in.
FWIW
Steve
Posted by keekee (Member # 367) on July 29, 2004, 09:57 PM:
I read this thread several times and agree with alot of what has been said. Here are a few things that I have found over the years....
When you ask for loged data, I started logging data on my lap top several years ago..(For deer Hunting...During bow season) I loged weather, the date, moon phase, Air temps, location, stand and hrs spent in the stand, and numbers seen.) After a couple years of review I found that weather seem to play a big, big part in the movements of deer. The air temp and weather...wind, rain, snow, or fronts moving in and out seem to have alot more effect on the deer movements rather than the moon phase, But....This did not figure the moon phase on the rut! I believe the moon phase plays a big part in when the does come into heat and he buck movement peaks out. I just used this data to track movement. It did increase around the rut, to a great extent. But overall...the weather seemed to play the big part in the movement early and late season.
At the end of last year I started tracking the same data on my lap top for predator hunting. Im tracking...weather, air temp, moon phase, stand location, number of stands, numbers seen, numbers shot, vocal responces, date and time of stand, I spent most of the season seting up my data tables. I have two hunts on the logs now. One is a night hunt and one day hunt. It will be very interesting to see how this turns out. I also make notes on every sheet on the table, number of hunters, ect.
I also just started a log for my scouting. I use it when im out locating at night or on scouting trips and put the same data in it.
I will say that in the past I have always done better at night on a new moon, during the day hunts I dont know if I could say it made alot of diffrence. At night....The moon plays a big role and make a big diffrence. I am looking forward to seeing what the data will say. All in all...would I say home from hunting just because the moon wasnt right...NO, But if I can plan a hunt with the moon in my favor I will! I think there are alot of factors that play into it. And Weather is a big one along with the moon phases. And alot of other things, but I can tell you this, if it gives my an edge to hunt on the new moon then I will try to hunt every new moon I can!
Kee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 30, 2004, 10:09 AM:
Thanks, keekee,
I think (perhaps) you said it better than my lame attemps? I agree with your conclusions, and it bothers me not, that you cannot document it ten ways from Sunday.
But, Lance. Are you getting any leads. I know we are getting a little sideways, here.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 30, 2004, 11:13 AM:
Have I been that obvious? LOL There's something to gleen from everyone. You just have to look thru a lot of oysters sometimes to find a pearl.
I'm just interested in someone that's kept their data and correlated it with the tables. I start each season with good intentions of making my efforts part of a bigger, better examination, and maybe these types of boards would be a great venue in which to get a dozen guys keeping the same data over the span of the year. But I can honestly say that the only table or chart I use to determine the best times for me to hunt is the calendar at work that shows me my days off and annual leave.
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on July 30, 2004, 12:56 PM:
Leonard didnt you read the article ?
""Our findings on this factor are consistent with observations of the success of calling and shooting coyotes for livestock protection, animals are more responsive to calls during a full moon"".
Sounds like calling to me ?
also you said that the full and New moon was your best. The article said that Full and Quarter moons were better and that New moon was worst, theres the contradiction to your findings.
If Chopper Shooting is so much different and means nothing, than pony up your data. "Trust me" and "Cause I said so" dont cut the mustard to the independent thinkers. Sorry if that riles ya.
Steve Craig,
Thank ya for the defensive sales pitch.
Im not sure anyone here asked "why", I just asked yall that had a firm opinion, for a source of data that has been cleanly collected without bias that shows a significant difference in relation to moon phase and calling/hunting success to back up your claims.
Keekee, when you say 2 hunts, y'all mean two seasons or two episodes ? Sounded like two episodes. Hope you stick with it before you make too many prejudiced decisions. Good luck with that, more power to ya and Lance too.
Thank ya again.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 30, 2004, 01:59 PM:
EP, I just took a look at my troll IP list and thankfully, you are not on it. I don't think I can help you any further, perhaps another member can figure out what you are driving at?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on July 30, 2004, 02:02 PM:
elpaso....
As for having a strong opinion, many people have strong opinions based on their experiences. This does not mean that they have recorded their experiences in order to statistically prove that their opinion is right or wrong....
As for the solunar tables... I don't pay much attention to them... I start when the sun rises and quit when it gets to hot or the sun sets... on average I get a shot at one coyote per 4 stands, sometimes better, sometimes worse... but at the end of the season... it averages out to about 25% of the stands produce a coyote... sometimes a shot, sometimes not...
I look at hunting as a sport, not a scientific or marketing event that needs to be stastically correct.... If I waited for the right stats, I would probably never leave the house....
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on July 30, 2004, 04:01 PM:
Leonard, I would really like to say something here, but on second thought it's best that I don't. I'll just say I back you 100% when it comes to hunting under a new moon at night. The only reason I say that is because we probably have 80 years combined experience hunting at night. I wonder how many the other fella has? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
He sure does know how to use words though ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on July 30, 2004, 10:04 PM:
I have read all of this twice and decided to throw my findings in for what it's worth. I discovered last year that both my old and new camera automatically record the time and date on every frame of footage I have shot. I realized this would be a wealth of information. I made some charts, got all my tapes from over two years of calling (90% daytime). I could not find one shred of evidence that the moon phases or position had any real effect. I did call in a few more coyotes on days following dark nights but not enough to stay at home on days following light nights, and I had a couple of real good days following full moon nights. I want you to keep in mind that I'm not just a weekend caller. I hunted most every day that the weather would permit. My findings show that you can definately not call them sitting on the couch, and thats a fact, and I didn't read that in no book. I have heard and read all kinds of theory's from so called experts and wanted to believe that there was some kind of magical time to call. I will admit that my data is not conclusive and should not be considered scientific, but for me I have not found one shred of evidence that the moon has any effect on whether a predator will respond to a call on that particular day or not.
As for night hunting. There is no doubt that if you are hunting from the back of a truck/van that you will do better on dark nights. They simply aren't as spooky for some reason or can't see the vehicle as well. Here in East Texas it is very thick and I used to hunt quite a bit at night on light nights leaned against a tree in the woods just as I would in the daylight. I would call sitting in the dark. The leaves on the ground are like corn flakes piled 3-4 inches thick so you can track an approching predator with your ears from quite some distance. When they would come to within shotgun range we would light them up and shoot. We loved hunting full moon nights because we rarely had to turn on a light to shoot. I honestly believe that it is a combination of too many variables ( Moon light, moon phase, temperature, wind conditions, food availability, hunting pressure, temperment of that particular animal that is within ear shot, and I'm sure there are other variables) that determine good days from bad days. I for one am thankful that there is not a magic answer, because then where would the challenge be?
This was free, and if you don't like my findings, well, you got what you paid for .
Good Hunting
Byron
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 30, 2004, 11:28 PM:
I wouldn't contradict any observations or convictions by anyone who states his case, and appreciate what has been offered. All a guy can do is say what he thinks; that's all I expect from any man.
But, I thought of something. When we talk about "common knowledge", being what it is, and all.
I spent over ten years as Hunt Chairman of the California State Varmint Callers Association. I can say this with certainty. If I tried to schedule a Championship hunt on anything but a new moon weekend, I be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.
That's how strongly folks out here feel about moon phases, and I'm not making this up; ask Danny. Danny and I have been in the same organization for a long time, and going back even further, lived in the same town and went to the same high school at the same time....but, he wouldn't lie for me.
As a historical fact, we always (40+ years) have scheduled night hunts on a dark moon, and day hunts on a full moon....
and weekend hunts; combining both night and day hunting, on the new moon! We are pretty sure of what we do and why we do it. You can accept that information, or not.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on July 31, 2004, 08:16 AM:
If you scheduled most of you hunts around certain moon phases, it would stand to reason that you would kill more coyotes around those moon phases. Leonard, I agree whole hardely that dark nights are the best times to hunt at night from a vehicle. People hunt the dark moons because they have an advantage in that you are less likely to be detected by the coyotes. You can just get by with more hunting from a vehicle on dark nights. It is easier to pick up their eyes, and harder for them to see you. I don't neccessarily believe that the moon has any measureable effect on how well a coyote will respond to a call. There are just to many other varibles that I feel would have more of an effect. I don't believe that most predators can be that finicky about when they respond to a ditressed animal. In one of the studies on deer movement I read they tracked the data they optained from the Boone & Crocket record books. If you just looked at the data on the surface it would appear that evenings were the best time to kill a trophy animal closely followed by mornings. Mid day was the worst time. But further analysis pointed out that the overwhelming majority of hunters never hunt during mid day, but the ones that did had a dispaportinate amount of success. They proved that,in fact, mid day was a very productive time that few hunters take advantage of. I don't remember the stats but it was something like 15% of those animals were taken at mid day when less than 1% of the hunters are in the woods (85%-99%, or 15%-1%)Which ratio do you like best?. A lot of what we do as hunters is based on tradition and some is based upon creditable proven tactics. I honestly believe there are lots more constantly changing factors that have a stronger influence of animal behavior than the moon. Just think about how many times you've had all the stars lined up in your favor, and conditions were perfect and yet you still got skunked. It still happens to me, and I'll bet it still happens to ya'll. I have also called coyotes in places I had little hopes of seeing anything. In my simple minded way of thinking about things, a coyote is a coyote, and he being an opportunistic creature ain't listening to a call and say well the moon ain't right I think I'll sit this one out. I watched a special on the Discovery Channel about the moon and it's effect on people and their moods and behavior, and I would expect that would have same effect on animals as well. I just believe it is very minimal. People, by nature are going to try and find the easiest way to do anything, and some are just plain looking for an easy way out. I have found that there ain't to many easy ways out. If a guy has limited time to hunt he might consider these factors, and plan around them. I have in the past, but inevitabley we can't control or predict the weather and this is the factor that most definately has the largest effect on success.
Byron
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on July 31, 2004, 08:33 AM:
Byron. Thanks for taking the time to go through that much video. I also agree with you. I have killed them on every position the Moon can be in, But I never killed one off the couch are at the key board.
Living were you get 120" of rain a year. I pay more attention to weather conditions than anything else.
There is one thing I do know for a fact. I will kill far more Coyotes mousing in the hay fields. The day after the farmer cuts his hay, Than I will the day before he cuts it.
Ronnie
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 31, 2004, 11:22 AM:
Just to clarify some concepts, if it's possible?
First, we are dealing with something that is harder to quantify than simply counting animals. It's easier to look at it from the standpoint of fish in a pond. There may be 100 bass in a pond, but you spend all day tossing crank baits, and you get one hit. Those fish, they are still there next week when the moon is in a different quarter, and you may find that, with the same lures, you limit out in an hour....same weather conditions, for the sake of argument.
Well, those coyotes are still out there, every day you go hunting. What influences the response, everything else being equal? Of course, the weather, as well as a bunch of other factors that we are not here to address, at the moment.
As Byron said, there are specific reasons why night hunting might be more successful under a dark moon. Maybe it's not some switch in his brain? Maybe it's the prey species? Maybe it's the fact that they are more vulnerable, because they can't see the hunter as well as when there is more moonlight? But, they are still there. Just as 100 bass can watch that bait, and ignore it, the coyotes in that area can be receptive to a distress, or howling, or they can put us on ignore.
The same thing applies to day hunting. It may be that the night time movements are so risky, under a full moon, that a poor coyote can't snag a rabbit. Therefore, he might be a little more hungry, come sun up. Hence, daylight stands are more productive during a full moon phase. The coyote has to try a little harder. All of my suppositions here are for example, illustration only; not agrument.
The point is that we may not know the exact mechanism; only that a "motor oil" worm worked last week, and not the week before.
I can say this, there are times when the fish are not biting, and there are times when the coyotes are not running. It's not as obvious as black and white, but I can see that coyotes, as a group, are willing and eagar some days, and other days, the hunting isn't as good.
Ask any cop. Does the moon exert influence on humans. Are there more wackos and murders and brutal mayhem under a full moon? Most of them will say: without a doubt.
The attempt to prove that hunting is better, during certain phases of the moon is going to be a hard sell, for some. For others, it seems to work, for lack of a better reason, why the fish are biting at a certain time, and why they are not, at other times. Why every coyote runs straight in to the call, some days; and other days, they are cautious, and circle down wind, way out there. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
For those that expect proof, before they believe this, (or) deny the relationship, I have only sympathy.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on July 31, 2004, 12:17 PM:
Let me try and clarify my post. I have lots of data collected and logged, and can't for the life of me find where the moon has any major effect on what the day holds as far as coyotes being more receptive to calling. Every time I thought I would see a pattern arise, it would be shot out of the water by them eagerly responding on day's when they were supposed to be ignoring the call. The fishing analogy is a good one but fish are also influenced by other overidieng factors such as weather fronts, water temps, barometric pressure, human pressure, and competition. My only point is that so far my experience, and data suggest that the moon is only a factor I consider when hunting at night. Not because the coyotes are more receptive because of the moon, but because I have the advantage because of the dark night.
Steve, I'm curious to here what your data says. I'd be willing to pay . Glad your putting a video and book together.
Byron
[ July 31, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 31, 2004, 01:01 PM:
Okay, let us all clarify our clarifications, lol.
First, an observation. Byron's data deals with successful responses. It doesn't show a lot of blank stands, which are also statistically important.
But, here is where I risk our readers looking at what I will say as bragging, or self promotion, or worse.
I am certain that there have been days, in my career, where I have called and killed more coyotes than all but the very best. These days, and those nights are memorable.
I'm not talking about seeing a half a dozen coyotes, and for various reasons, killing half of them. What I am talking about, are those times when I see 40 or 50 animals, and kill half of them. Those times when every stand produces multiple response, and more than one dead animal. Some hunters never see this, in a lifetime.
Again, Danny knows what I'm talking about.
You have to draw some conclusions, from epic events.
For those who weren't there, they are not able to put those results on paper for the purpose of everybody understanding a great mystery. Perhaps they decide it's the area, it's the season, it's the weather, it's cosmic energy, whatever?
My personal collective memory bank is sure of (only) a few things. And one factor that I cannot dismiss is the influence of the moon. Perhaps it is faith alone, I can't say, but it works for me and I could care less, how many agree with my conclusions.
I only offer them for consideration, I gain nothing. Others may gain some insight, or in some cases, all it does is put a target on my back. But, again, I'm not afraid to state my beliefs and opinions, at risk from those that take detail out of context, twist certain words and quote them back at me, etc.
I won't back down from my opinion, which is consistant, in my mind, but contradictory, to others with certain motivation. Those that state their views are vulnerable. Those that spend their time dissecting other people's comments, without sticking their own neck out are (essentially) intellectual cowards, in my book.
Oh well, I tried. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 31, 2004, 08:17 PM:
A new twist, on an old addage, might prove fitting in this donnybrook; " I never would have seen it, if I hadn't believed it"
Ive experienced more memorable days, where the coyotes hammer the call, during weather changes, ie: morning after a good storm, rain or preferably snow, or before a front moves in.
I have payed attention to the solunar tables some over the last couple of years, and it's been hit or miss. Some days at 1PM to 4, Ive had good response.....just like the tables said I should have. Other times, it's just as I would expect at 1PM......nothing:)
So damned hard to qualify anything dealing with hunting. Every minute of the day can reveal something different from the last minute or day or week. "All things being equal" is a tough qualifier to make prior to throwing out a theory, because all things are so seldom equal.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 31, 2004, 10:53 PM:
I don't really pay much attention to the solunar tables. What I said at the top was that I sometimes look at them after the hunt (after the fact) and see where some major or minor periods coincided with what actually happened.
BUT Vic? A donnybrook?
For those who have not been active on the internet for very long, some of the most brutal exchanges you have ever witnessed occured on a message board that few ever heard of; SPORTING ADVENTURES. That was before the Coyote Gods, before the dearly lamented Shade Tree, before Posse Country, and before Predator Masters and Huntmasters.
I suppose it was entertaining, if you like that stuff, several weeks of mutual insult, but it involved three people that are still around, these many years since. On the one side you had Big John Henry and his sidekick; who's name excapes me at the moment? On the other, was poor little me. Typical Internet disagreement, extreme ranges and subcalibers.
The funny thing is, after a grudge lasting several years, two of those guys get along very well, I'm happy to say. I like him a lot, glad to call him a friend. The big man is still sore.
Yes sir, that was some feud. Was it not, Mr Carlson?
This too, shall pass.
Good hunting. LB
[ July 31, 2004, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on July 31, 2004, 11:03 PM:
Maybe I need to clarify again Leonard. My data has plenty of stands that didn't have a response. I said in my first post on this topic "I want you to keep in mind that I'm not just a weekend caller. I hunted most every day that the weather would permit". We had plenty of stands that weren't productive, and they were figured in to my conclusions. I can certainly appreciate what your saying about sticking your neck out. Believe me if I weren't completely confident in my findings I certainly wouldn't bring it up on this board. This board has some of the most experienced coyote hunters that have access to a computer. The last thing I would do would be to put some half baked idea out as fact. I for one was stoked when I first read of solunar tables and moon phases. I thought finally I had an explanation as to why some of my best stands wouldn't produce when all the conditions said it should. It's got to be the moon was my thoughts. I hunted religiously by the moon for quite some time and guess what. I killed a lot of coyotes at those times. I also got skunked on those prime times. A friend of mine would call whenever he could and was killing a lot of coyotes on day's the moon was all wrong, It forced me to reconsider my new found theory. I have a farm and ranch construction business and do almost 100% of my work on farms and ranches. I also have been granted access to hunt most all of the ranches that I do work on. In the cooler months we will most every morning call a stand or two on the way to work, or when we get to work. This is just how we start the day. In the evening we will usually make a stand or two on the way home. Also I grew up out in the egde of the Texas panhadle working on large ranches and have maintained good relations with those landowners. I would routinely make three day weekend coyote killing trips out there during the fall and winter. I to have had days, that if I were to tell about, most would call it BS. Some of which were on days that the moon watchers wouldn't have even bothered. One of which happened last year on an 27 section ranch that I had never previously hunted. We killed 19 coyotes and a bobcat during daylight hours on film. I would estimate we called in well over 50. This was one shooter and one on the camera. If both of us had been shooting we would have easily killed at least 10 or so more. According to the experts and the moon we should have stayed home. I'm glad I didn't. My point is this.
I'm not asking any one to back down from there hard earned opinions, and I have no motivation to change anyones mind. I'm simply stateing that these are my opinions and observations. Simply put, give me a nice day with a light wind and I'm gonna give it my best shot regardless of where the moon is and at what phase it is because my experience shows that a coyote will do what a coyote will do when and if he feels like it regardless of the moon. This is day hunting. Night hunting is all together different. Dark nights give you definate advantage if your hunting from a vehicle. Not because it has some influence on there behavior, but because they are more vurnable to the red light and it is harder for them to detect you.
Leonard I respect your conclusions and hope you don't think I'm trying to prove/disprove anything.
Good Hunting
Byron
Posted by bcott (Member # 344) on August 01, 2004, 06:07 AM:
I call coyotes whenever, and wherever I can. I figure the coyote is ALWAYS hungry, and concerned about incursions into his area by other predators. Therefore, my biggest problem is to get him to hear the proper music. Of equal importance is to be calling in/from an area that he feels safe enough to venture into. If I fail in either of these two critical areas I probably will not see a coyote. I have not done any predator calling at night since the early sixties. Therefore my comments are about daytime calling only.
I do not think that predator calling is any more compllicated than that. I KNOW that the coyote is a simple critter, and it embarrasses me at times to be "outfoxed" by something that does not have a logic section in the brain....
Therefore if I do not call in a coyote it is something that I have done incorrectly, or wrong, as the coyote cannot change his mental program.
[ August 01, 2004, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: bcott ]
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on August 01, 2004, 08:13 AM:
bcott. Well said.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 01, 2004, 09:05 AM:
quote:
Leonard I respect your conclusions and hope you don't think I'm trying to prove/disprove anything.
Thank you, but no, I didn't think you were giving me any static. I'm just one of you guys, not the last word on all things pertaining to predators. And, by the way, I don't hunt every day, wish I could. I envy those that can.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on August 01, 2004, 09:23 AM:
I messed with the tables for awhile. My results were much the same as others here. Sometimes there appeared to be a pattern. Other times things worked out just the opposite. Anymore I pay no heed to tables or moon info regarding calling in the day at least. Basically what Byron said is identical to what I've experienced. (except the 19 coyotes and a bobcat part. Still waiting for that day. That would be awesome. ) I also agree with those that said night hunting is more productive (from the visibility standpoint) on a moonless night. It gives the caller an obvious advantage.
Anyway the tables are bunk in my opinion. So is the no success calling during the day after a full moon theory I used to live by. After reading through this thread yesterday, I went out calling at 10 AM with a video cam in hand. About 90 degrees out. 20 mph wind. Shouldn't have called a thing. Made 4 stands and called a double on the second stand (about 11 AM) and got about 15-20 minutes of great footage of some territorial response. Called a single on the third stand (almost noon) and got some good footage of a coyote working the Foxpro and a Decoy Heart.
By all rights it should have been a lousy day. And this was in a spot that is close to town that gets hammered by callers. Go figure. I have to agree with those that said just call when you feel like it and you can't call anything from the couch. My opinion is a guy is going to miss out on some good calling days if he lets solunar tables or moon data dictate when he hunts.
Good hunting.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 01, 2004, 09:36 AM:
Curt, do you know what time a major solunar period occured yesterday? I suspect you had a south moon in that 12:00 PM time frame. Hmmm
Dennis
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on August 01, 2004, 10:19 AM:
Now I have gone and done it. Yesterday the peak started at 9:30 AM, And toped at 1:45.P.M.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 01, 2004, 10:38 AM:
Yeah, thanks, Curt. Ammunition for both sides is hard to do, on purpose.
Good to hear from you!
Good hunting. LB
edit: By the way, if the misspelled word in the heading bothers anyone, a point of information. It is not possible to edit that subject box, so be careful.
[ August 01, 2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on August 01, 2004, 10:41 AM:
Yes Dennis, it can be chalked up as one of the times the solunar table actually coincided with a productive day. I was using it as an example regarding non productive day calling after a night with a full moon however. Believe me, I can rack up a truckload of non productive days that the tables say should be productive. Not a problem. LOL!
Over the years there has just not been enough consistency to take any stock in solunar tables for me. In fact I'm going bear and cougar calling in a few minutes. 1:46 to 2:52 should be dandy. Want to make a little wager I come home empty handed? LOL!
Good hunting
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 01, 2004, 10:44 AM:
Same old story, Curt. You can't call 'em if they are not there. Find out where they are, and you got yourself a slam dunk lion.
Good hunting. LB
edit: oops! just noticed a new member post!
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, bcott. Glad to have you on board. LB
[ August 01, 2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on August 01, 2004, 10:51 AM:
Afternoon Leonard! Must have been typing when you posted. You are right about the "ammunition". LOL!
Good info in this thread. Reading about the exploits of you and Danny is a little humbling though.
Take care, Curt
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on August 01, 2004, 01:46 PM:
Thank y'all for your continued input. Nice to see folks get bold with information thats maybe not as welcome to be heard as other information. Seems to me this has been a purty healthy excercise, for all involved. Makings of a good BBS.
Its amazing to me how many "myth-conceptions" gets passed around as gospel to be worshipped, and are then re-passed around by the choir, without the congregation willing to question its origins, but as weve seen here, when you do question, you get called a heretic for going against the grain (or for asking too many questions) of the church elders. (or in this case, a troll ?) Such as it was with Raindancing and Virgin Sacrifices too I suppose.
Leonard said
""it's too late in the game for me to change my concepts based on information from people who may, or may not know anything about hunting coyotes from the ground.""
Thats precisely why I ask for data on loose concepts, when hearing Firm Opinions from the internet. Can you really blame a fella ?
Tom Bagger
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on August 01, 2004, 02:10 PM:
I for one, am not sure I'm glad you asked the question . I can't find where I put my charts I made. Now I'm gonna have to start all over, and this time I have another years data to recover .
Byron
[ August 01, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 01, 2004, 04:58 PM:
"Ask any cop. Does the moon exert influence on humans. Are there more wackos and murders and brutal mayhem under a full moon? Most of them will say: without a doubt."
----------------
You hit the nail squarely on the head that time Leonard. Does it effect coyotes in same manner? I hardly ever hunt at night, except for a couple of times with Murry Burnham. I remember him telling me that you have to take advantage of the shade on full moon nights because coyotes can see you better at that time. Makes sense to me.
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on August 01, 2004, 07:34 PM:
Well that pink fuzzy solunar sweet spot didn't pan out for me today. Found some good fresh sign to call on but nada. Will give it another go next weekend early in the morn and bring a e-call with.
Take care
Posted by keekee (Member # 367) on August 01, 2004, 08:23 PM:
All I have is two hunts (not two seasons) on the laptop now. It should be interesting to see what all the totals are at the end of this season. Plus it will also be nice to look back at how many days I hunted and how many stands I make during the season and how many predators respond and are shot ot missed. Plus how or what the moon phases was at the time. Also weather at the time. I couldnt believe how mant hrs I spent in the deer stand during several bow seasons. (now I know why the wife ask me who I was when I came home...lol)
Kee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 02, 2004, 12:26 AM:
El Paso~
See this is part of the problem. I did not call you, or anyone else a troll. I said I looked at my list of IP addresses, to see if yours matched, kinda like a finger print. I said your IP didn't match the numbers on my troll list. Mild suspicion, perhaps, but not an accusation.
And, yes. The conversation is entertaining, and sometimes, accidentally informative.
But, you are not sticking your head out, nobody knows your theories. You are not afraid of being sliced and diced, are you?
Good hunting. LB
PS Excuse my ignorance, (never mind)
[ August 02, 2004, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 02, 2004, 10:01 AM:
I thought a t-bagger was a golf caddy? Who knows....anyone have any hard data on the origins of the word, no wild ass guesses or theories, but hard,scientific data:)
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on August 02, 2004, 10:51 AM:
Tea Bagger: Person that secures tea leaves inside nylon / mesh based bags. The bag is then secured and a string attached so as to allow the user to properly steep the tea once the bag has been placed in hot water.. Tea Bagger...
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on August 02, 2004, 12:54 PM:
Leonard,
Nice to see yall are not above name calling. Im gonna like it here.
If you want to gets down to brass tacks, I did take a stand, I challenged you to provide solid data. Therefore implying you dont know what youre talking about, even though you might think you know. Still waiting on that data.
While y'all may feel courageous for sticking your neck out, frankly your last post hit the nail on the head, its not courage, its ignorance.
See, Im smart enough to realize that there is no significant basis to declare one right over the other, there fore taking a stand is, as you have said, ignorant and is not courageous at all. Smart enough to know, that I dont know, and apparently you dont either, only youre not smart enough to know it.
I also like how you waffled over the inmportance of Statistical significance. First page you said statistics mean nothing "liars figure, figures lie", second page you were givin ol Byron the business because you thought his method was not "statistically significant". Make up your mind yet, or maybe youd like to get into politics ?
Take a pill already. Its just yote hunting, it aint Rocket Surgery.
Tom Bagger
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 02, 2004, 02:20 PM:
After sharing your thoughts, I can see how you'll make lotsa friends. And Norm, that wasn't the definition for teabagger that I had in mind. Not even close.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 02, 2004, 02:46 PM:
The only stand I have taken is that I believe something. That is not ignorance. You may as well demand proof in the existance of a Supreme Being, it will gain you no more. I said I wasn't interested in providing proof, I was only offering my personal method of reading tea leaves, as it were.
What you want (iron clad proof) is patently ridiculous, considering the variables. We may as well keep searching for Weapons of Mass Destruction.
As far as stating your case, all you have to say is that you have no intention of believing anything. So, any attempt is a waste of time. I have said, several times, that it does not interest me to try to persuade you, I'm just sharing my ideas, which you can label as bunk, if you choose.
You keep refering to being persecuted with name calling, but I want to point out that you have received a large measure of patience. As you probably know, I could very easily vaporize you and all your comments, but don't like to do it....which isn't a threat, by the way. Ask anybody how tolerant I can be to your form of entertainment.
It has reached the point where I sincerely have to wonder if your motivation is such that you won't be happy unless you can continue to stir the pot? No, you have not stuck your neck out, an inch. I still don't see anything constructive coming from your direction.
By the way, if it helps, I will apologize for the tbagger mention made by others, I have (just this morning) learned that it is (can be) an impolite comment.
Please think about the value of your next post. You don't have to agree with anybody, in particular, but I for one, find your tone (attitude) to be irritating.
Just thought of something. As a fun experiment, go into the blackboard and see how much rope he allows you. And, be sure to give the King Hell Dictator my regards.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on August 02, 2004, 03:51 PM:
Leonard, you called him a "t bagger", and didn't know what t baggin is? Thats funny?
elpasotbagger,
You might want to think about changing your screen name if that offends you. Just for the record, where do you stand on the topic, and how did you come to your conclusions?
Vic, I just read your post again and just caught on to this sentence " I never would have seen it, if I hadn't believed it". That slipped by my febble mind the first time.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 02, 2004, 04:06 PM:
Byron, this is getting contagious! I DID NOT CALL HIM ANYTHING, I ONLY ASKED WHAT IT MEANT, AFTER READING ANOTHER POST.
I'm not pointing fingers, you have to go back and verify. LB
edit: you can start looking for this: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, that's funny. Second, I can laugh at it because that's what we call them here, too. Third, criticism about what we call cow farmers from a guy that has "tea bagger" in his name, if that's what I think it means. Hrumph!
[ August 02, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on August 02, 2004, 04:23 PM:
Never look at tables.I look out the back door If it's not raining too hard and if the wind is not blowing too bad I hunt.
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on August 02, 2004, 05:19 PM:
My apologies Leonard.
Byron
Posted by crapshoot (Member # 225) on August 02, 2004, 06:21 PM:
Here in Sin City, T-Bagging is a phrase used by prostitutes and will cost you a pretty penny to have it performed.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 02, 2004, 07:28 PM:
I heard it used today in reference to a rasslin' move. Who knew!!!
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 02, 2004, 09:49 PM:
He signed off as Tom Bagger and I assumed he was a turkey hunter. I have no idea what t-bagging is. Have to ask Anna.
Interestingly, this weekend both Murry and Gerald stated in their interviews that they have little confidence in stands on fullmoon days. They both prefer dark of the moon for daytime hunting. There is a combined total of a hundred years of calling experience. How's that for LINEAR CORRELATION?
Experienced callers can look at new territory and decide if it looks "coyotey" based on the knowledge they have accumulated over many years of observation and experience. They do not require biological survey models to make the determination. They do not need to dance in the rain. They do not need to sacrifice endangered species.
I know positively that if I hit EPTB in the middle of the forehead with a ballpeen hammer, his eyes will blink. I can draw on years of experience with impact trauma, as any teen-age boy can, to make that determination. Perhaps EPTB would require repeated raps with the hammer, over an extended period of time, observed by objective researchers, all duly catalogued, noting any and all variations and having the results published before he would admit before the fact that he will surely blink when he gets rapped with the hammer. One can only hope.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 02, 2004, 09:49 PM:
Well cripes,
I go to Mexico and spend a few days drinking tequila and singing with the Mariachis and miss out on all of the fun.
I've got to agree with the Boss on at least 50% of this one. If you plan a big hunt around anything but a new moon, you are screwing up. Day or night, doesn't matter. New Moons produce the best.
But if opinions are still allowed, the only things Full Moons are good for is hunting at night, over snow. I still kill a few coyotes during day hunts after a full moon, but I always seem to do better after a dark night. ( heavy cloud cover can make a full moon better )
As for the moon's effect on people, Several here who know me and my family have heard me talk of the troubles with my oldest boy. It's a wonder we both survived his teenage years. With out exception, every time I told him to get out of my house, or got a late night call or a visit from the Police due to him, was during the period of a new moon. ( and yes, I've had enough opportunities to draw a conclusion )
But can someone send me an email and tell me what the hell a t-bagger is? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I always thought it was a non-drinker who wanted to give me hell for enjoying a cold beer. Is it worse than a Lawyer?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 02, 2004, 09:57 PM:
on the way....
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on August 03, 2004, 05:39 AM:
Rich,
When you come to Michigan it's going to be the two days after the full moon when we hunt. Should we just stay home then. You will be arriving on the day of the full moon, ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
we better be careful at the airport!
Leonard,
I'll take one of those emails too. Call me uninformed I guess.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 03, 2004, 07:08 AM:
If someone would be so kind, I'm real curious to know what a t-bagger is too?
- DAA
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 03, 2004, 11:39 AM:
well, so far, nobody has convinced me that the solunar calendar doesn't work. Maybe at the end of this month, you'll find me out in the Dakota's, in the mid-day heat, shooting coyotes.
Actually, I think even the awareness of the solunar charts is just part of being tuned-in to what's occuring around you. Paying attention to some details, such as are the cattle up or bedded down, farm dogs sleeping on the porch or up and running,farm cats out hunting and birds singing can be indications of what game animals and predators are also doing. Even if it's keeping you hunting that extra hour or two before breaking for lunch, might very well pay off in the long run.
Dennis
BTW: I just saw on Bob's, board that Bearmanic called in a bear about 3:oo PM on Sunday. Probably would have been about 5 hours before dark? Not exactly nocturnal.
[ August 03, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 03, 2004, 12:17 PM:
I like your post Dennis. Nice approach.
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on August 03, 2004, 09:08 PM:
I'd have to say that nothing has been said to convince me that the solunar tables do work. Couple years of following them pretty religiously tells me how much faith to place in them though. Would have missed out on some outstanding hunts if I had stayed home waiting for the handful of prime days to come along.
Still say the best course of action for a fella to take is to throw that solunar table and quit trying to find excuses not to hunt. Then walk out the door and go calling. I promise you will get more critters than pondering the workings of the cosmos. (Heck, maybe I should check my horoscope before I decide to hunt too.) LOL!
As far as daytime bears go, nothing unusual about that. Seeing bears at anytime of day is pretty common around here. They are pretty much all taken during the day aren't they? Don't know of a lot of states that allow bear hunting at night.
To each his own though. Not being independently wealthy, and having a family, my spare time is limited so even if there was something to the sun and moon mojo, I would disregard it and hunt anyway.
Good hunting
Posted by elpasotbagger (Member # 349) on August 04, 2004, 08:12 AM:
See if this applys here at all:
Two rednecks decided that they weren't going anywhere in life and thought they should go to college to get ahead. The first goes in to see the counselor, who tells him to take Math, History, and Logic.
"What's Logic?" the first redneck asks.
The professor answers by saying, "Let me give you an example. Do you own a weedeater?"
"I sure do." "Then I can assume, using logic, that you have a yard," replied the professor.
"That's real good!" says the redneck. The professor continues, "Logic will also tell me that since you have a yard, you also own a house."
Impressed, the redneck says, "Amazin!" "And since you own a house, logic dictates that you have a wife."
"That's Betty Mae! This is incredible!" The redneck is obviously catching on.
"Finally, since you have a wife, logically I can assume that you are heterosexual," said the professor.
"You're absolutely right! Why that's the most fascinatin' thing I ever heard! I cain't wait to take that logic class!!"
The redneck, proud of the new world opening up to him, walks back into the hallway, where his friend is still waiting.
"So what classes are ya takin'?" asks the friend. "Math, History, and Logic!" replies the first redneck.
"What in tarnation is logic???" asked his friend. "Let me give you an example. Do ya own a weedeater?" asked the first redneck.
"No," his friend replied.
"Fag! Queer!"
alrigth back to business.
Leonard said:
""Please think about the value of your next post. You don't have to agree with anybody, in particular, but I for one, find your tone (attitude) to be irritating.""
I TOLD YOU THE WORLD IS FLAT !!!!! OFF WITH YOUR HEAD IF YOU SPEAK AGAIN
Still havent seen any data, just heresay which it sounds like it breeds to additional heresay without real independent objective observation. Lot of defensive talk from folks that seem to have made this a personal matter. If the observations are so profound and obvious WHERE IS THE DATA that correlates? Should be a slam dunk, but there is no data... hmm?
I asked a simple question, made my case, and have taken a lot of flack from some of ya, including physical threats (suspicious only, of course). Copernicus probably had the same problem.
Main problem Im seeing, Seems to me some of the folks around here are capable of dishing it out, but cant seem to take it ? Pretty sad.
As far as being a T bagger (using the Boudoir Dictionary that seems to dominate some minds). Im just one of you guys, so I guess y'll are a bunch of T baggers too.
I say Good Day to You
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on August 04, 2004, 08:26 AM:
eptb;
If you need data to use as the basis of when to go hunting....May God help you...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2004, 09:42 AM:
Look, elpaso,
You have not stated any case that I can figure out. Telling us that you demand facts and data to support whatever position the other members may take, is not a "position" in and of itself.
Your previous post was so full of faulty logic that I have not bothered to disect it line for line. My opinion has never ruled these pages, and I resent the implication that this is nothing but a means to flatter my ego with stooges that agree with me, on all subjects, or on any subject. The entire membership is insulted.
ie: The world's flat~
You have yet to state a position on any subject, other than ridicule those that have an opinion.
So, I'm saying it now. If it walks like a duck; or a troll.....you get the idea.
You need to enter a self imposed banishment. I'm proud to say that I (actually) don't have a list of banned members or IP addresses, so don't make me start one, okay?
I feel that we have lost a source; albeit one with a troubled soul. I think you have some knowledge that would benefit our members, but the cute crap is wearing thin. Just go find some place else to stir the pot. On your honor; no parting shots, no long good byes. Suck it up; just leave. You won't be missed.
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