|
Author
|
Topic: Hungry coyotes
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted April 23, 2004 10:12 PM
Jack's post to George in which he states that Western coyotes are easier to call because they are always hungry raises an interesting question.
How many believe that to be true? How many remember the stories of coyotes coming to the stand with a rabbit in their mouth? Or called in from melon fields with their tummies round and full? From mequite stands full of beans? Tyler and I have called many off dead piles, absolutely gorged, yet enthusiastic in their approach.
How many believe that hunger is the prime motivator to a coyotes response?
IP: Logged
|
|
Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
|
posted April 24, 2004 06:51 AM
I am not one to believe that the western coyote is easier to call due to hunger.
If one were to presume that the western coyote is easier to call, I would attribute this to the ability to hear the call. In the east the sound of the call does not travel as far due to the abundance of sound barriers. (e.g. big trees, rolling hills). Population factors impact the probability factors on response as well.
So why would an overstuffed coyote respond to a call? Why do we opt for dessert when overstuffed ourselves??
I believe this to be a factor of curiosity as well as territorial protection which will cause a gorged coyote to respond to a call not always hunger.
--------------------
Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dezertyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 176
|
posted April 24, 2004 08:13 AM
I'm know expert on this, but I've lived and hunted both east and western coyotes.
#1 The population density of the coyote here in the east. (a lot lower than the west)
#2 the food base for the coyote at different seasons of the year.
Summer; mice, moles, woodchucks, chipmunks, small game etc. We have a large population of turkeys, and I'm sure the coyotes key in on the nests and young, along with fawns and other new born.( we have very, very few rabbit anymore) at least here where I live.
Fall;Some of the mentioned above, (the ones that haven't gone in for the winter) Nuts, berries, anything that they can choke down (which doesn't leave much out)
Winter; is a different pattern, a lot of the rodents and small game are in hibernation, and after the snow comes and the first hard crust comes the mice stay under it were they are harder to get to. The sqirrels activity is low in the winter months, reds being more active that the greys. not that their gonna make a living on squirrils.
Winter in the east doesn't leave the coyote a wide choice in his food base.
I'd have to say the harder the winter, with deep snow and low temps is more favorable for the coyote. They eat on the sick and weak deer. You'll find more coyote activity in and around the deer yards in the winter.
This is what you'll find in the yards.
Back to the question Rich, are western coyotes just more hungery (espcecially the southwestern coyotes) I'd have to saw NO
As for the road kill, I've seen more in the west than here in the east.
Just my two penny;s worth.
Posts: 11 | From: Vermont | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dezertyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 176
|
posted April 24, 2004 08:15 AM
Lets see if this works  [/IMG]
Posts: 11 | From: Vermont | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted April 24, 2004 11:46 AM
Dezertyote, here's your pic...
I had written a big long post, but I deleted it... I'll just listen and learn...
Krusty 
[ April 24, 2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 24, 2004 12:04 PM
I recall a conversation I had with F. Robert Henderson many moons ago when I was just getting addicted to calling where he told me that they did stomach content analyses on SD coyote for two seasons and found that as high as 90% of all coyotes that came to the call had what they would consider to be a full stomach, and that none were emaciated, appeared to be starving, or had empty stomachs.
In my opinion, nearly all coyote responses are motivated by reasons other than hunger, including curiosity (the big one) and opportunism. I regard coyotes as having a higher level of aptitude than your average dog, and are thus, more curious. Something going on in their house gets their attention and I think they act on the compelling feelings to check things out.
We all know coyotes are opoortunistic as hell, and I think that any smart coyote will never pass up the chance to investigate and take advantage of an easy meal. In areas of high coyote densities, i.e., the desert southwest, the resident dogs know they better get on a good thing fast or miss out on the opportunity. Thus, the reason for faster responses in some areas which explains my reasoning that increased responses in high denisty periods is not necessarily proprtional to the higher number of coyotes. Eastern coyote densities are much less and I don't think the need for grabbing at every squeal is as necessary as out west. Opportunities aren't as emergent as they are for their western cousins. Also, the recent confirmation that those eastern coyotes carry wolf DNA contribute, in my opinion, to some of the behavioral anomalies compared to western coyotes. From a cost-benefit perspective - something coyotes are inherently good at assessing - winter coyotes in the east may not regard a measly little rabbit to be enough of a meal for them to waste the energy on its acquisition. As a pack, yarding deer are another matter and offer a LOT more energy. I'm only thinking of comments I've had about how eastern coyote depredate more on deer and larger game than they do on rodents/ rabbits.
As far as the original question and hunger being the onus for responses, no. If at all, <10% of the time. Just my .02.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted April 24, 2004 03:31 PM
Lance, many studies have been made of coyote diets, both scat analysis and stomach content examination. Several states and Canadian provinces have conducted the studies, New Brunswick and British Columbia, Maine, New York, Texas, Wisconsin, Colorado, and Oregon that I can remember offhand.
U of Co.'s Dept of Range Science conducted a study of suburban coyotes scat in and around San Diego.That was kinda interesting by itself.
The largest and longest study was conducted by the USDA beginning in the 1930s, continued for ten years and included the examination of 14,289 coyote stomachs from seventeen states. Fascinating and sometimes a little surprising to learn what was found in those stomachs.
IP: Logged
|
|
varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
|
posted April 24, 2004 08:13 PM
I called three Coyotes off one dead Cow. I also caught a Bass that had a live Snakes head sticking out of it's throat.
Fish are fur hunger is not the answer folks.
Ronnie
--------------------
Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
|
posted April 24, 2004 08:42 PM
My wife, like many wives, has a closet containing at least five times the amount of clothing I have. Where I have three pair of shoes(one pair of work boots, one dress boots and the obligatory tennis shoes)....she will have 15 pairs. The same runs true for all other forms of sartorial splendor. Yet, when news of the latest "white sale", or after Xmas sale, or catalog sales appear...she makes hot tracks to cash in on the bargains, she loves bargains. Coyotes, love bargains.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted April 24, 2004 10:46 PM
Vic, most would have simply said "greed". You give us Kipling. I have never seen nor heard it spoken so well. Pure poetry. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
IP: Logged
|
|
albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
|
posted April 25, 2004 12:54 AM
I'm going to toss something out here. I also believe that hunger is way down the list on why coyote respond. I friend of mine has suggested to me that he feels that the reason eastern coyotes are harder to call than western isn't so much related to population densitys( he feels that certain parts of the east have higher densities than people realize) but physiological(?). He feels that physiologically the eastern coyote is relutant to leave the forest. At the same time he feels that in the west that coyotes are conditioned to the open areas and therefore are quite willing to cross open areas where they can be readily seen. I hunt alot along the forest fringe and from what I see happening here I feel that this idea deserves some consideration.
When I am hunting along the forest fringe you have to find areas that allow the coyote to approach the call in cover and any coyotes you see will most likely to be in shooting rangee. They seem unwilling to leave the trees by much more than few yards. They seem to be quite willing to follow a treeline but will seldom stray more than a jump or two away from cover. At the same time if you travel a half hour from the fringe to more traditional western style cover it is quite common to see a coyote cross 800 yards of open field to come to your calling.
--------------------
for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
|
posted April 25, 2004 07:02 AM
Though I live in East Texas(Heavily wooded). My best hunting is in South and North Texas. So I can relate to East and West hunting in this State.
I have hunted from 14' tower blinds in the South Texas brush country. I have observed Coyotes circling a quarter of a mile before coming in many times. Now when I come back home I am faced with hinting pipe lines, And small pastures. Plenty of dense cover for them to circle and get my scent.
I think Eastern hunters are calling far more Coyotes than they realize. They just don't get the chance to see them. As you well pointed out the Eastern's have adapted to the timber. Being a Coyote we know the are going to take full advantage of the home court.
Ronnie
[ April 25, 2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: varmit hunter ]
--------------------
Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Terry Hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 58
|
posted April 25, 2004 11:39 AM
I will agree with Albert.The coyotes in the east hunt in the woods because they feel safe in thick cover.At dark they are a differant animal and can be seen in open pasture.If a hunter knows how the coyotes can be called across the open pasture without much effort.Early and late in the day.
It is about 15 miles from my house to the nearest town.Almost any day I go to town 1 to 3 dead coyotes can be seen on the side of the road.Does this look like we have a low coyote population?
The coyote population in the east is exploading.Most hunters in the east do not know how to hunt coyotes.
Posts: 132 | From: N. Middle Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
|
posted April 25, 2004 03:16 PM
Interesting Terry. My friends feels that there williness to leave the trees is as much the amount of available light as the cover. Citeing what you just said. Basically that they are quite willing to leave cover in low light conditions. This includes periods of heavy overcast.
--------------------
for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted April 25, 2004 05:15 PM
The fact that coyotes are primarily crepuscular would also influence the amount of sightings at those times. Also apparently whether you are armed or not plays some role in sightings. A rancher in MO told me that coyotes always know if there is a gun in his truck. They will come right up to the truck when he feeds his cattle if there is no gun, will not appear if there is one in the truck. Clever coyotes.
IP: Logged
|
|
Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
|
posted April 25, 2004 05:34 PM
Talking about sensing guns I have a funny story. Back a few years ago while denning for Natrona county, I had a sheepwoman losing lambs in the middle of the day, with guard dogs and a half blind mexican sheepherder in attendance, and she claimed that it was a coyote that had been in that area for a while and every time she had a gun it was only seen at long distance running or not at all, so she thought that this coyote could "sense" a gun. I was there at daylight and the coyotes were not near the sheep and not where I thought they would be so I picked a high spot and sat in to wait for the daylight killing. About 11 am the herder started for water with the herd and as I was watching them go along towards a rockpile I seen heads start popping up in the rockpile. It was the old ones and a litter of big pups and the herder was heading right for them. As they got there the old dog picked off a lamb as per daily ritual right in the middle of the whole works. I slipped into range, turned my dogs loose and all hell broke loose. My dogs, guard dogs, herding dogs, and coyotes in the middle of about a thousand head of sheep, with a herder that spoke no english. It would have been alot more funny to be watching than right in the middle of it. But I got the old dog and a couple pups killed and the bitch and a pup or two got away and I picked up the bitch and a pup the next day. Later I went and talked to the sheepwoman to explain what was happening and what all had went on. She was again talking about the merits of this particular coyote and how smart he was and how glad she was that I had got him. I laughed and explained to her that I was pretty sure that he hadn't "sensed" my gun but had "sensed" that 70 grain HP entering his rib cage.
--------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 25, 2004 07:20 PM
Ronnie, I agree with you, and it isn't limited to just the eastern range. Q and I got to talking about this very topic - calling more than you realize and not seeing them - on our hunt together last November. At the first setup, we called in a half-dozen that held up about 500 yards out. After some work, the smallest of the bunch peeled away and came in while the rest just sat, stood and watched. Since this ain't the first time I've seen this happen, it got me thinking, and of coure, I've brought this up and had guys relate their own experiences from the opposite direction every time. But, when relying heavily on prey sounds, I usually see one coyote come in, maybe two on a good stand. He comes in hard to moderately aggressive in their mannerism and, in my region, can show up just about any direction. If the foundation for the stand is howling and vocalizations, I'll often see 2 or more coming in at a casual gait and almost always moving downwind of me. Not always, of course, but often enough for me to list it under "rules of thumb".
Now, who knows what's happening for sure, but I think that the guys using rabbit squeals only see a fraction of the coyotes they actually have on the radar because of what I described - one comes in while the others lay back. Maybe the respondant is the dominant top dog, maybe he's the lucky low guy on the totem pole. I've seen both happen. But, nowadays, considering that 60-70% of my area coyotes can be assumed to be part of a pack (and thinking of them from that perspective), if I call "A" coyote, I always operate under the assumption that there are other eyes on me that I just haven't locked onto...yet.
Why might they do this? I dunno, but maybe it's because if all they hear is something in distress, they send in one guy to recon. If it's a hoot owl, he can handle it on his own and once he's finished with the ass whoopin', we can just take it from him. Easy meal - at least for all but the first guy in. Howl respondents, on the other hand, "know" that they're dealing with a coyote, or what they think is another coyote. And he's a mouthy interloper that nobody recognizes. Therefore, let's go do the meet and greet in numbers as a way to intimidate and drive away. If it's the right time of the year, maybe they'd rather head to their alamo and go to warning him and talking smack. Who knows. But, yeah, I believe that guys everywhere call a lot more coyotes than they see from their stand. Timber-rich areas like the eastern deciduous hardwood forests just exacerbate the problem with visibility.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
|
posted April 26, 2004 06:49 AM
Lance. I think you are right on the problem.
I have often wished they would make something like the Fish finder for us Coyote hunters. Not to help kill them, But just have a ideal how many have responded. Now how cool would a 2" Doppler radar look sitting on our heads.
Ronnie
--------------------
Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
|
posted April 26, 2004 02:32 PM
Sounds to me like the coyotes in MO Rich spoke about are already equipped with some kind of radar. The next generation of radar will detect if the rifle is loaded or not.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
|
posted April 26, 2004 03:04 PM
Randy, They got it. I wont it.
--------------------
Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
|
posted April 26, 2004 04:08 PM
I used to swear the crows back in Indiana knew the difference between a shovel and a long gun. You could walk with in 25 yards of one if you carried a shovel, but not get with in 100 yards if carrying a gun.
If the crows could do it, why can't the coyotes?
--------------------
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 26, 2004 04:29 PM
Ronnie,
Last year, Humminbird had a little fish finder for sale for the guys that fish from the dock or shoreline (aka, can't afford no damned boat) that consisted of a camera unit that floated on the surface with a remote control unit that made it putter all around in front of you with its camera pointing around under water. You motor around until you see a fish, then toss your bobber at it. How worthless as hell do you have to be to sit there with one of those things searching out a fish before you're actually willing to commit enough that you'll toss some bait? And to think, the last time I fished, I was so stupid as to just bait my hook and toss it out there just any old place. The magazine I saw it on had this guy with his son on a dock, all smilin' and stuff, as they reconned fish. And I thought the general idea was to get the kid away from the video games for a while?!?
Actually, those night guys like Leonard are probably using FLIRS equipment already and are too ashamed to tell us about it. Me? The highest tech I can afford is a good pair of wire rim glasses, and I can't hardly afford them anymore. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 26, 2004 06:24 PM
I don't want y'all to feel bad, and I'm not REALLY bragging, but I have a comment about calling more animals than you see.
I have a couple areas where I call in animals on every stand. On those occasios when I know they are THERE, but they don't show, it's a general condition called spooky coyote. I have to pull a few tricks out of the bag to make them poke their head out of cover, or step out in the open.
This is in what I would call fairly heavy cover.
I have discussed this phenomena before, and don't have any idea what triggers it, but it's a lot like fish biting, and then they don't bite.
Your guess is as good as mine? A change in the weather, atmospheric conditions, moon phase, or all of the above.
However, the point is that I agree. There are many animals called and not seen. That's understood.
While some parts of the country can blame it on forest and/or clearings, and others might believe it has something to do with hunting pressure, and still others, (in other areas), are sure it has something to do with certain vocalizations. All good answers.
Makes it interesting.
Now, many comments, above on motivation. What makes a coyote respond? Many examples of coyotes responding that aren't hungry. No quarrel. I've seen it, myself. But. I do believe that the colder it gets, as the season advances, and the scarcity of prey becomes an issue....they sure as heck ARE responding out of hunger. At least MY coyotes are hungry, under those conditions.
No "always/never" statement, but as a general rule, I think hunger is a prime motivation, particularly in the dead of winter.
It may be obvious, but nobody has mentioned this, up to this point, and I don't want the less experienced among us, to be mislead into thinking that coyotes are always responding out of curiosity; to a dying rabbit.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted April 26, 2004 07:34 PM
I didn't see any posts that implied that curiosity was the primary motivator.
This thread was in response to a statement that western coyotes are easier to call because they are always hungry and eastern coyotes are never hungry
To the confused:
Coyotes responding to prey distress are generally motivated by (in alphabetical order)
1.curiosity
2. greed (bargain hunting)
3.hunger
4.territorial/social concerns
5. X number of emotional and or instinctual triggers that "only the yippers know".
Still confused? Welcome to predator calling. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 26, 2004 08:17 PM
Alright Leonard, I'll give you the hunger motivation. In fact, I'll give you, oh,.. three days of it - January 17-20. Outside of those 72 hours, it ain't nothin' more than "Who the hell's makin' all that noise?!?" Bang! Flop. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
