This is topic Semi Autos-wave of the future? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 03, 2004, 11:07 AM:
Recently read an article in T&PC that suggested that semiautos might take over bolt guns as weapon of choice, within ten years.
Curt? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on April 03, 2004, 11:24 AM:
LOL, I read that too Leonard. Probably not much danger of that. Heck, one more gun rabid president and they will be collecting them probably. I'll be surprised if it's legal to own one in 10 years.
Like the guy in the article said, a semi auto is handy when you need them. Most of the time a bolt does just fine though. Love those bolts too.
Take care, Curt
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 03, 2004, 01:50 PM:
I have never had much interest in a semi-auto,for a calling rifle.With well placed shots a single shot or bolt does a great job.I think if I knew I had the extra shots at just a trigger pull away, I would probably rush shots and end up costing myself coyotes,but that's just me.I see that they are becoming very popular though and can see the advantage that people are trying to take advantage of.But I have used bolt action for so long I would feel lost without it. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on April 03, 2004, 01:51 PM:
get a single shot... though I am considering the semi auto like Byron's if I can get it in a .19-223; Off to the gun show to do some searching...
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on April 03, 2004, 02:53 PM:
I love my AR's, but my first consideration is accuracy. I used bolt guns for years and rarely felt under guned. Since I have swithed to an AR I have been able to capitalize on several situations that would have left bolt guns sucking hind tit. I still love my bolt guns, but alway's take an AR calling. Some guys I know use them as crutches for poor shooting ability. They take the spray and pray approach. This has given semi-autos a bad rap with some, and rightly so. Semi-autos are in no way compensation for poor shooting. A single shot rifle in the hands of a good shot is better than 20 AR's in the hands of poor shooters.
Just my opinion .
Good luck at the gun show Norm.
Byron
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on April 03, 2004, 07:41 PM:
For 58 years I have been a bolt gun man. Building many myself. Had one of the top names build me three 1000 yard guns. Anything that was not a single shot, Or bolt was blasphemy to the hunting world.
Then I saw a Clark Custom Gator. The first five shot group went .344". I put a Bushnell Holo II sight on it. This rifle is made totally in house by Clark. Absolutely no recoil. Bullet holes just appear were that little dot is at.
My wife has a master left eye, And has trouble with scopes. So being the kind of feller I am. I gave it to Her.
Now will the few people who know the true story, Just stay quite?. PLEASE
Ronnie
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on April 04, 2004, 07:22 AM:
well, hopefully you instructed her to shoot right handed with her left eye closed versus shooting left handed and a blouse full of hot brass....
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on April 04, 2004, 11:54 AM:
I have seen times when a semi auto would be handy.Give me one precise shot anytime.I do not see this red neck goning to a semi rifle.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2004, 12:33 PM:
Tell you what. I'm no redneck, but I feel the same way. For many reasons.
But, I tried it. Didn't work for me. Then I figured out the problem, and did something about it, but I still was not impressed.
The problem? Scope mounted too high. If you sight it in for 50 yards, it's a couple inches off at 100. If you zero it for 100, same deal.
So, you dump the first coyote at 50 yards, the second takes off. Now, by the time you get on him, between brush, etc., he's at 100 yards, and you have to allow for that. Goes over his back, and he's running faster now. Now you are guessing the holdover for 143.5 yards, doing the best you can to track him ducking and running, and deciding on the proper lead. Requires a lot of estimating, especially compared to a bolt gun, where the point of aim hasn't changed measurably, for all practical consideration.
So, get a flat top. Now you have the awkward loading, as you exit the vehicle, the noise factor, unless you try to do it quietly, and then you worry that it didn't lock up properly... so you take a peek. More noise.
Then there is the UNloading, dropping your precision handloads in the mud, or, (hopefully)snagging them out of mid air. Removing the magazine and replacing the round in the magazine, checking for dents and gouges, etc.
But, for combat; boy, am I ready!
(no offense, all you affectionados) Just having a little fun at your expense. As they say: different strokes....gotta have something to talk about, right?
Good hunting. LB
[ April 04, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on April 04, 2004, 06:09 PM:
No offence taken Leonard. Some like chocolate, some like vanilla. It's not my fault you bolt guy's are stuck in the dark ages ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
. In deffense of the AR's, if you familarize yourself with them, they can be loaded and unloaded very quitely, and without dropping a round in the mud. I can do it blind folded, standing on one leg, drinking a beer. Also my rifle is dead on at 50, 1 1/4 high at 100, and dead on again at 200. It does shoot 2" low at 15 yards. Even bolt guns sighted the same way will shoot low at that distance. I see what's really going on here though "It's a EBR thang" ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
.
For what it worth, I don't care if you chunk rocks at em as long as you have fun.
Byron
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on April 04, 2004, 06:35 PM:
Ditto on that Byron. Easing the bolt ahead and then using my thumb on the forward assist to fully engage the bolt, the AR can be loaded as quietly as a bolt rifle. You can visually see the bolt is engaged.
With the flat top set up I don't notice any trajectory problems. Leonard , you are right about the carry handle mounted optics. It does some weird things and I would not want a hunting rifle set up that way. I have a couple A2s with iron sights/carry handle and they stay that way. No optics. But the flat tops are just like any of my bolts trajectory wise.
The AR or semi auto has allowed me to do some things I can truly say I could not have done with my bolt. It's not often enough that I'm suggesting anyone changing over from a bolt to an AR. Some folks don't care for them and I respect that.
This goes for a shotgun as well. I know pumps are probably just as quick but I prefer a semi auto shotgun too. When two coyotes get in close, it's nice to just put the bead on them.
Byrons last sentence sums it up well. Although guys using a 22 LR for coyote hunting does make my arse itch a bit.
Good hunting
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 04, 2004, 07:03 PM:
For what it's worth, put me down as another guy who doesn't like anything AR.
For those of you who use them, don't tell me how you can close them quiet, show me. Better yet, show all of those guys who hunt with them how it's done. They sound like a dozen car doors being slammed at once. While you are at it, you might teach a lot of those guys that if they can't hit a coyote standing broadside at 25 yards, those next half a dozen shots at a running coyote are going to be wasted too.
My biggest complaint is aesthetic value. If I am seen carrying a rifle in the field, I want people to see me and know am a hunter. Therefore I carry a hunting rifle.
The AR type rifles look exactly like what they were designed for. Not a rifle designed for hunting, but a rifle designed for killing people. Public perception should be important to all of us, and that's not a perception I want to be associated with.
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on April 04, 2004, 07:50 PM:
So you are saying you like chocolate I guess Tim. I respect that and I agree with you about guys spraying the countryside with lead. I could easily live with a 5 round clip.
As far as loading quietly, the lesson above is self explanatory. You have my permission to pass it on to the less informed. LOL
The aesthetics you mentioned that you don't like however make it the rifle I find ideal. The ergonomics suit me. I don't like the black color and usually change that. If I'm running into people where I hunt, so that I have to worry about what gun I'm carrying and my "image", I haven't driven far enough. I haven't had a negative experience regarding using an AR for hunting except maybe a rancher or two wanting to shoot it and tying me up for a little while. Most of them do mention that they hate those evil sniper looking rifles though. LOL
Good hunting
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on April 04, 2004, 08:15 PM:
I don’t like the idea of having to aim low to hit something. If I need to compensate it will only be in terms of hold over. Some guys like to sight their rifles in for a specific point blank range depending on their target. In our case the coyote.
Say the coyotes kill zone runs 7 inches at its very maximum vertical point. Conservatively we should probably go with a 5 inch zone to allow for a little shooting error. If the center of Byron’s scope (line of sight) is 2.5 inches above the center of his barrel and his vital zone is 5 inches he will need to sight his rifle in at 253 yards to have a maximum PBR of 292 yards. (If he is shooting a 55gr BT at 3150 within my environmental parameters.)
In other words if he sights this load in at 253 yards it will not drop below 2.5 inches until after 292 yards and will not raise more than 2.5 inches at all above his line of sight. Theoretically speaking with out shooter error he could center up on coyotes out to 292 yards and kill every coyote he shoots at.
My rifle shoots the same bullet at 3900fps and with a 0 at 200 yards the bullet never goes above .70 from my line of sight. If I centered up on all my coyotes I would be good to 275 with that zero. If I sighted my rifle in for a 5-inch kill zone like Byron’s I would have a maximum PBR of 339 yards with my zero at 292 yards. You have a 47-yard advantage with the swift over the 223 but the AR has the swift beat out in the “fallow ups” department.
Damn Tim! Didn’t get any last night either ehh. LOL I am a bolt fan myself but I am probably going to put together an AR this summer sometime just to have one. For a coyote rifle I think a guy just needs to be disciplined a little on the trigger. If you go into it with the one shot one kill mentality the fast fallow up shots won’t be necessary but will always serve as a nice insurance policy. LOL Sometimes I wish I would have had a shot gun and sometimes I wish I had a machine gun but most of the time my bolt gun does just fine.
If anyone wants to know there point blank range or bullet drop let me know and I can run it through my program. All I need is the bullet, the bullets velocity and sight height above the center of your barrel.
Environmental parameters include. Temp, elevation, humidity and barometric pressure. An average anyway.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 04, 2004, 08:32 PM:
The ARs are a piss poor platform for a hunting rifle. They balance poorly, mount to the shoulder poorly,have an awkward butt stock design for scoped sighting. They were made for iron sighted shooting and are screwed up in that area no matter what you do to them. Ive put thousands of rounds thru a dozen different ARs and M1As for three gun shooting and sniper matches, and love them for what they are, useful tactical rifles, meant to be shot with iron sights, and able to place hits with reasonable accuracy under field conditions. What they aren't; is graceful,tasteful, useful extensions of the shooter in hunting situations.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on April 04, 2004, 08:40 PM:
No body got any last night I guess. LOL Hello AZ, I missed you at the shindig in Silver City. I figured you were out chasing cripples you shot with your HMR or something. LOL It is good you got to see your boy though. Hope you make it next year.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on April 04, 2004, 11:45 PM:
Not trying to get anything started, but I believe bolt action rifles were originaly designed for battle rifles to replace single shots, then later adapted for sporting use. Kinda sounds like what's happening to the AR as we speak. Ar's were desinged to fit a certain criteria needed for battle. Accuracy, reliability, rugedness, simplicity, fast target aquisition and a whole list of other things that are all an asset to the predator caller in some way or another.I'm infinately familiar with my AR and it comes to my shoulder like greased lightning, painting an X over what ever I looking at. If it didn't I wouldn't carry it. I also think that is a very tasteful, useful, looking rifle. Most people that hunt these days shoot repeaters for that all important follow up shot that is sometimes needed. I like my repeater to be a self loader. I could care less what anybody else uses, but I find it ammussing when someone has such stong feelings about what someone else uses simply because he don't like it. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Good Hunting
Byron
Edited to say: Quinton, I got plenty last night . The kids were at grandmas .
[ April 05, 2004, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Swift One (Member # 330) on April 05, 2004, 01:36 PM:
quote:
My biggest complaint is aesthetic value. If I am seen carrying a rifle in the field, I want people to see me and know am a hunter. Therefore I carry a hunting rifle.
The AR type rifles look exactly like what they were designed for. Not a rifle designed for hunting, but a rifle designed for killing people. Public perception should be important to all of us, and that's not a perception I want to be associated with.
It's views and perceptions like this one that fuel the gun control nuts. A hunter that agrees that an AR is desinged for killing people and not hunting. WOW. The Bushmaster Varminter IS NOT desinged for killing people, it's desinged for varmint hunting with the semi- auto fan in mind. The semi auto fan that would like a more accurate Semi automatic hunting rifle. I agree that taking a fully automatic rifle out hunting is over doing it by far. But, come on. I have NEVER been looked at funny for taking my Mini with pistol grip Choate stock out in the field for hunting. I have been out with folks that have had ARs and they have NEVER been looked at funny either. It's a personal preference- that's all. Let's all understand that there will always be a personal preferance.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2004, 05:57 PM:
Remember, nobody's bad mouthing your woman, we are only stating personal preference in a hunting arm; wave of the future, etc.
It's mostly a Ford/Chevy deal.
But, in all honesty, I can't warm up to the assault rifle as a coyote rifle. Tim and Vic said it all, for me.
And, Swifty, they do look at you funny, you just haven't noticed. (just kidding!)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Tackdriver (Member # 203) on April 05, 2004, 07:26 PM:
I really dont like semi's much.
But being the open minded feller that I am, I must say that a Correctly Equipped AR, has certain good qualities.
Recently I saw Shaun's AR-15 in 17 Remington.
Now everything about that rifle was geared toward calling coyotes and hunting.
And it was a fine shooting rifle.
No flash hiders, handles on top, funny forends or collapsing stocks.
I wont give up my bolt guns soon. But Ill not laugh at the AR guys either.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 06, 2004, 12:17 PM:
Well since this is being referred too as a choc-vanilla thing. I'll throw in my $.02.
“Assault weapons”. Someone might argue back to a slingshot and a rock, David and Goliath, I suppose. As far as aesthetics go. It is hard to beat a M98 (or any of the clones such as Winchesters, Rugers, Remingtons, etc.) that has been sporterized, polished, rust blued, and inletted into a piece of English or Turkish walnut. Then add 24 lpi checkering, plus a hand rubbed oil finish. I have to spend many days to shape, sand, checker, and finish one, to make it look really nice too me.
I shot my 1st m16a1 at Camp Pendleton, and have been hooked since. Of course now I am limited to an AR15. I have two and I still like them. Plus I am going to have one like Shaun’s soon. I like both semi, and bolt rifles. It doesn’t bother me if Norm likes his single shot TC or Victor likes Calhoun’s CZ bolt, or whoever likes what. Kind of reminds me of the hunters who argue “tradition over modern” whether it is compounds and longbows or black powder and center fire cartridges.
Coyote season ended for me a while back, and Spring Turkey opens in a couple of weeks. I like my auto loader 12 ga for that too.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 06, 2004, 04:19 PM:
I have a question for our members.
Exactly how often do you need the instantly chambered second shot?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 06, 2004, 06:29 PM:
Not very often I suppose, since I use a single shot and have no plans to replace it as my primary calling rifle with one of my repeaters. My BinL and I called in 12 plus coyotes at one time, they came in spread out a little but still in one mob. We could have used a good full-auto then. We took three coyotes out of all those in front of us . We both shot 223 Contenders.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 06, 2004, 07:33 PM:
Well, Yeah. If you want to put it like that.
Another rarity that I'm fond of mentioning; the stand where I killed 6 of 9 coyotes, armed with a bolt action. All but one were within 75 yards. After the first three, I was single loading.
(and no, I probably couldn't do it again?)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 06, 2004, 07:44 PM:
Probably, 90%+ I could use a single shot.
And some of the time I could use iron sights. But I never do. Another topic maybe?
Posted by bucksnort (Member # 202) on April 06, 2004, 08:07 PM:
A semi........would be a waste of ammunition for me, as I normally miss the first shot, and miss the second about 90% of the time, and well.........it has been more years than I care to count on the third shot.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 06, 2004, 10:33 PM:
Leonard, I can't even imagine how you did that. I remember you telling me that the coyotes came in together rather than singly over the length of the stand.
Hell of an achievement.
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on April 06, 2004, 11:18 PM:
No one can love a fine bolt action more than I do. I have spent ridicules hours building them. Also spent ridicules amounts of money having some one else build them.
I am going to pick the best gun to do the job I have in front of me. A year ago. That would not have included a AR type rifle.
Byron, And I are faced with Coyotes crossing pipelines, And logging roads surrounded by dense cover. When I discovered I could have a rifle that could shoot 3/10" groups. Put a sight on it that lets me shoot right handed, Left-handed, One handed. Even upside down, And the bullet hit were the dot is looking.
Well this old dumb Texan ain't going to ruin that Dog off cause of the way he looks, Are the name some people call him. He's got a place around my barn.
Ronnie
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on April 07, 2004, 07:28 AM:
OK, I'll confess to having one. I bought it last fall, and had a purpose in mind when I did. I go to a few contest hunts, and last year at Rawlins we had a situation. We had located several coyotes together and knew we were apt to have multiple targets. My partner had a Benelli Super and a bolt gun, and I had a bolt gun. Long story short we killed two out of four because they skirted us at 60 yds. I shot the first with my rifle, as planned, and as soon as my first shot went he was free to empty the Benelli. Now, this guy can shoot, and hit every one of the remaining coyotes but at that range it wasn't enough. He got one more on the ground and the other two were packing some buck shot, but since we had set up to get them close we were in a situation where they were out of sight shortly. Anyway, back at the check in a friend from Colorado was showing me a new DPMS and I thought that it might be the ticket for that situation, so I bought one. And I think it will work great for those type situations, but I still would want one partner to have a bolt gun along in a contest situation. But if I'm just out calling by myself or working a little this summer, it will be with a bolt gun. I did pack that AR this winter and it is a handy thing to have along. I jumped three cats one day and shot two of them, and had a cat pull out as I was driving up to a set, and the AR saved the day. To me it is a special pupose weapon but I'll keep mine.
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on April 07, 2004, 09:02 AM:
No matter what forum a guy visits this issue always comes to the table. Compound bow vs. Recurve. Flint lock vs. Percussion cap. Bolt action vs. semi-auto. For me I have them all and hunt with them all. It makes life more interesting. I'm kinda like the boy in the ice cream shoppe, gotta try all the flavors. As for the AR guys I hear ya, and for the bolt guys I hear ya. I can't knock down either one. I just love to hunt.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 07, 2004, 04:30 PM:
Rich, thanks for asking. As I said, I love telling the story.
We were set up on the edge of a pile of gravel, and I parked on one side, and climbed to the top. From there, I could see all of a small pond, surounded by a mud flat, and beyond that mixed brush, creasote, mesquite and cholla. In other words, typical southwestern.
It wasn't real early, the sun was directly behind me, and fortunately for me, high enough to shine directly on the mud below.
My son had set the caller at the north end of the pond and walked around to cover our flank, to the north.
It didn't take more than three minutes, and they started single filing out of the brush, from the left. I let them all get right out in the open, the lead dog was perhaps twenty feet from the caller when he stopped, and I shot. And missed!
They didn't know which way to go, a regular Chinese Fire Drill. The sun was right over my shoulder, and the shots were producing an echo, bouncing off the water. Never seen such a confused bunch of coyotes, probably never will, again?
The shooting was routine chip shots, except for that lead dog, which I caught sneaking off, but he was in the open space under a large mesquite. Just luck, I saw him moving through the brush, but he stopped right under that tree, and I didn't wait.
When I first talked about it, on line, I had this guy, Gary Staddler call me a liar; said it was contrary to coyote nature to bunch up like that. Which pissed me off, of course. I asked my son about it, next time I saw him.
He backed me up 100%, except for one thing. He thought he counted ten?
Can't forget something like that. It was extra special.
Good hunting. LB
PS Oh yeah, forgot. Had one runner we didn't recover.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 07, 2004, 10:29 PM:
Ya know Leonard, I dream about things like that at night. Used to dream about women-- bummer.
Isn't that Gary Stradler, the one that posted the photo of the 7 or 8 foot coyote? Glass houses.
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on April 08, 2004, 03:04 PM:
On another board I'm known as an anti-? (What, at the time it didn't make sence to me either), more than once I've even been called anti-gun due to my attitude on the good ol' AR (What?). But I have to admit that over the years I've turned into an automatic man myself. When heading out hunting I automaticly grab one rifle, on stand I automaticly load my rifle, after the first shot I think calming thoughts while automaticly loading again, when I leave the stand I automaticly unload and when I get in the truck I shift the automatic transmission into gear and automaticly head for the next stand where I grab the Ruger #3 single shot and automaticly do it all over again.
(Edited to add some minor wording or clarification only)
[ April 09, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: MJM ]
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