This is topic Access to Public lands in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 14, 2004, 05:03 PM:
Cal, while I think your description of trespass was a good one. It's to far fetched to resemble an argument about trespass for hunting. I don't think Leonard, Rich or anyone else wants to go though your back yard. Or even have to pass with in a quarter mile of your house. The places they are referring to are places that a rancher owns a couple of hundred acres, and leases several thousand acres of public land. The little piece of private land just happens to be between the public lands and a public road and has the only road giving access to the public lands. Ranchers in this area at least, have the bad habit of locking off that road denying access to public lands to everyone but himself. To follow the example Leonard gave, I think you need to travel 50 miles of rough public land, get down to your last quarter tank of gas, only to find some self serving prick from out of State has locked the gate between you and the public road. I'm betting when you hit that gate, you'd use a key similar to what Rich or I use. I believe a person has every right to ask for no hunting on his private land, and his request should be followed. But to deny the public access to public lands is wrong.
Buying a hunting license in Arizona, gives you the same rights to trespass on State Trust lands as does buying a grazing lease. As along as I am not destructive to his private land, why should I not be allowed to cross it and hunt the public lands on the other side? One place that comes to mind close by has a strip of private land, 50-100 yards wide between Several sections of State trust lands and the public road. That private strip of land is several miles long, and contains half a dozen access roads to public land. Is it right for him to lock off those roads and keep it all for his private use?
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 14, 2004, 05:33 PM:
It's the same argument the west over. The same thing that you describe happens here too, Tim. But I still have to stick to my guns, private is private. If that land was mine I would feel that it was my right to not let anyone on it that I did not want to be there. And I think my comparison is correct. I'm pretty sure that you and I would get along fine if we ever met and I would probably be welcome in your back yard and you in mine, but that would be our choice. But someone that we didn't want there we would either remove ourselves or call the police and have removed. I would never want to have to allow access to my land for someone I didn't know or didn't want there. My opinion is that it is the governing body of the land, (state or federal) that should be responsible for supplying access to the public in these cases. Whether that is by buying easments or creating roads that do not cross private. Using myself and Wyoming for an example, if I knew of a large tract of public land that was landlocked by private that I wanted to hunt for whatever reason, say there was a monster bull elk there, I'll guarantee I can hunt it. If I want to bad enough. I'll hire a SuperCub to fly me and my camp in, or figure out a legal way to get there on horseback, or whatever it takes. It can be done. But back to the original argument, I do not feel that it is the landowners responsibility to supply me access. I don't care if it is a johnny come lately out of stater, or a ranch family that has been there forever. Whatever they own and came up with the money to buy is theirs. I just can't see the difference between country and city limits. If you own it you ought to be able to control access as you see fit.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on March 14, 2004, 05:38 PM:
Tim, that is exactly the case in CA and in CO. Those are the only States where I have encountered that same problem.
There are many instances where the ONLY access to public land is by a road thru private property. Most times, the road is open, but fenced on either side.
The problem arises when the land owner gates and locks that access road. That is illegal. His property deed states he must provide easement to the public lands thru his property.
I've never used the "emergency key" to gain access, but I've had that gate locked after I went in lots of times. I always carry a few rounds of AP egress insurance for just that situation.
When I find a locked/gated easement I give the location to the F&G main office and then hound them until the locks come off.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 14, 2004, 06:10 PM:
Let me clear this up a little. I have not, would not use a loud key to GAIN access to public land. I would continue on to the next stand. I contact AZF&G the next day and report the violation. I have used the key three times in the last four years to LEAVE public land and get back on the highway.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 14, 2004, 06:44 PM:
Cal,
I'm glad you didn't take that as a personal attack, I didn't mean it that way. I just wanted to use the example you gave to show a different side of the table.
I only have 80 acres here, but I have two roads that run down two sides of it. One is completely on my property, the other runs the boarder, and is rarely used. I could legally lock off the one, it's used a lot by people who would rather drive across my cattle guards than open and close gates. But I cross other peoples lands from time to time, so instead of locking it off, I keep it graded. As long as people stay on the road, avoid making big ruts and don't throw out trash, I can't see any reason to not allow people to cross. In fact, I've only had problems with vehicle trespass once. The fellow that owns the grazing lease next to me decided to go off the roads and drive up 60 yards from the back of my house. My wife went out to see who it was and asked why they were driving though us and they responded, "Little lady, you'd best just get back inside the house and mind your own business" We had a good little nose to nose talk that afternoon and I think he now knows where his cattle are allowed but he is not, along with a few things to never tell another man's wife.
My point is, locking off that access doesn't do anyone any good. The conscientious hunters don't go there any more, but those who are going to tear up roads ( US Border Patrol comes to mind ) and those that litter and shoot up windmills and water tanks ( slob hunters and smugglers ) are still passing though, while there are no honest people there to report what they have seen.
I can see, not allowing people to hunt or camp on private land. But what harm is there from allowing people to cross private land, a reasonable distance from any dwellings. As long as they are only passing though, to gain access to public lands that they have as much right to enjoy as anyone else?
As far as I am concerned, anyone who locks the public out of public lands should not be allowed to use that land either. If you want to lock off your land from the public, go right ahead. But at that point, the public should have the right to lock you off of public lands. If a Rancher can't share with us, why should we be forced to share with him?
Edit:
Rich, Same here. I'd never use a "master key" to gain access, and rarely would use one for exit. It's only used as a last available option.
[ March 14, 2004, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Tim Behle ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 14, 2004, 07:09 PM:
I'm a public land hunter. So I sure comiserate with the situation of being locked out of public land. But, I can give you one very good reason for not allowing people to use a road across your ground to gain access to public ground. If you let them do it long enough, and later decide, for whatever reason, you don't want that road open anymore, or for that matter don't want that road to EXIST anymore, you may find yourself being slapped with a public easement and basically not having control of that roadway and a setback either side of it. At that point, you've lost control or your land for good. Seen it happen. And when it has happened, you can bet your behind that all the neighbors took notice and stopped allowing access through their land immediately!
Like I say, I'm a public land guy. Spent a week up in Cal's area last summer. Never seen so many "No Tresspassing" signs in my life. Nothing I hate more than a No Tresspassing sign. But I always, and I mean ALWAYS respect them. Experienced exactly what was described above - travelling hours of rough trail on public ground only to have to have a couple hundred yards of "No Tresspassing" ground force me to back track. Happened several times until I finally just gave up and headed for open ground a few hundred miles west. I don't plan on ever going back to that country, for that very reason.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 14, 2004, 07:09 PM:
Yeah, as far as that goes, I have never gained access, by force. The example I gave is real. And, this stuff happens, when you least expect it, and can least afford to turn around. Then, if you are sure of your situation, do what you have to do, and close it behind you. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
It seems to me that in many cases, the rancher or his hand is having the usual trouble with the jerks that never close a gate behind them, figuring that they will be right out, but they never do. So, they lock it up to teach a lesson. They may think protecting their stock is more important than allowing access.
Given a choice, I won't force the issue, but it pisses me off probably as much as the lessee.
Truthfully, I see this situation much more frequently in Nevada than anywhere else.
Again, I'm not kidding about the fifty miles, sometimes it's a lot more. But, I do cut the chain leaving as much as I can, and avoid damaging his lock.
I'm never looking for trouble, but open range is just that.
Good hunting. LB
edit: didn't see Dave's post, as we posted at the same time. I just wanted to add, for Dave's benefit. Remember, partner, at least they did POST it for you! As has been mentioned, they do not HAVE TO, legally. And, I have a small problem with that. Especially adjacent to BLM. LB
[ March 14, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 14, 2004, 07:21 PM:
Well, This is a good debate.
Nasa made the point that they MUST supply an easement, and if that is the way the contract was written when sold or if there was an existing easement that is true, but much of the landlocked public here, there is no easement and never has been so it should not be up to the landowner to supply that easement.
As far as your situation Tim, thats great, and very nice of you. But what I can see wrong is that once you open a place up for access like you talked sooner or later the bad stuff WILL happen. 80% of the people will abide by staying on the road and etc. but some will not. I have seen it time and time again. If not property damage then it will be a deer shot or something. When my dad was still alive our family ranch was pretty large and intermingled with public and there is a public access road that winds through some private. There was a group of hunters that decided to use an old homestead cabin that we stored cake in for firewood. They cut a wall apart with a chainsaw and packed it to their camp. The cabin was on private and their camp was on public. The current big deal that I run into is big game. I manage the land I lease for trophy class animals. I control how many bucks are taken and of what age class, and due to that there are big animals. The Game and Fish here sells licenses. That is their sole function as near as I can tell because they don't manage anything. They sell too many permits for the public land and it gets over hunted. Therefore since I manage my lands and have quality animals I'm considered the A hole because I won't let non paying hunters come shoot all my big deer. If I did they would do exactly what they do on public. They would shoot everyhting they could until it was all gone. I don't have anything landlocked by private except a few state sections, but I'll guarantee that if I allowed access to those parcels of land some of the deer on the private that I lease would get shot by someone crossing. The temptation is just too great for some people.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 15, 2004, 05:10 AM:
Cal, your last sentence reminds me that the deer decoy that various game departments use to nab road "hunters" probably originated in Big Piney, Wy. I remember reading in the early 80s that a rancher with a sense of humor, who witnessed road hunters shooting from the road, threw a deer skin over a 50 gal barrel, stuck a deer head on it and placed it behind some sagebrush a ways from a dirt road intersection on his property. By the end of deer season the barrel looked like a sieve. Wy Fish and Game jumped on it.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 15, 2004, 02:30 PM:
I recall a time when I was younger and long before leasing and no hunting signs became the rule rather than the exception, it was rare to be excluded from access to ground for many, many miles. Farmers and ranchers let me and my buds on everything. Well, one of them changed his ways. Clear out in the toolies, he had this great pasture for fishing and calling and a friend of mine drove clear up there, like forty miles one way, only to find the gate locked. He didn't force access by cutting the chain or the lock, but he got even. He put his lock on the chain so the landowner would get up there and, himself, be locked out. Not the right thing to do, but had to give him credit for creativity.
On another note, I feel really bad for you guys. All that public ground and you find yourself looking at a locked gate. I'd be willing to be Master Lock Corp. has doubled their assets in my county alone. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ March 15, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 15, 2004, 04:35 PM:
Lance, a locked gate is the exception, rather than the rule. And, it isn't any of my business, if it's private. But, that's the thing, some of these locals think they own the whole friggin county.
I have a great deal of sympathy for Cal and his efforts, and I know there will be those that will pot a nice buck driving through an easement.
But, as the man said, it's a good debate, right?
Now, around here, those nice bucks might prefer to stay on the private property, but the deer belong to the people, and if one should leave the friendly confines, that's fair game. I don't know where they migrate to or from, in Cal's areas, but they may not be resident throughout the season, unless I don't know very much about mule deer?
Hypothetical situation. Let's say Rancher Bob has 80 acres fronting a good graded county road, and he has a road through his property that accesses National Forest or BLM. Ol' Bob doesn't like slickers driving through his property to get to the public land, so he locks the gate every time he passes through.
Let us say that the Ranger over on the other side locks his gate so that those dudes don't drive through, discover Bob's locked gate and have to turn back. Of course, the unintended consequence is that Bob can't pass through and get to the public land, for reasons known only to him. Should he squawk, or cut the lock?
I have heard that open gates in eastern Wyoming get closed after they trap enough goats for paying customers. I'm sure it's completely legal.
Good hunting. LB
PS Cal, just having a little fun with ya!
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on March 15, 2004, 04:42 PM:
We run cattle on public land, there is always a bad apple that makes the rest of us look bad. We pay a fee to be out there with cows. Hunters including myself just pay a state lic. & tag fee. So please don't take it out on the cows, if you have enough time find out who the bad apple is and report them to their range conservationist. However, one year we got looked in by the forest service, during a december cow hunt. There is no master key for the new forest service gates. A long walk and a phone call, nearly took an act of congress to open the gate to get the truck out.
It is also true about the easment on private lands. There was a motorcycle trail that ran along an old fenceline on the back pasture, a few years later an ATV trail, then some guy drove it in a jeep, then 4x4 trucks started taking the path, 5 years later the county made us move the fence 33 feet so they could pave the road.
Posted by tonlocus (Member # 254) on March 15, 2004, 05:43 PM:
There's nothing worse than driving 20 or 30 miles of the nastiest, rock infested, bone jarring POS forest trail only to get to a locked gate when you're 2 miles from the main road. Personally I don't think any continuous road from a government owned road (city, county, state, or federal) to another government road should be restricted. Whether it goes through private land or not. If it's got a public in it needs to have a public out. They don't show no trespassing signs or locked gates on any of the topo maps that I have. They do show continuous roads though. And if the USGS says there's a through road on its map then I expect to be able to go "through".
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 15, 2004, 07:06 PM:
Locked gates on public land are the norm here.
Many times we can't even leave the paved road.
They are often listed on topo maps, but new "suprise gates" screw us all the time.
When a logging lease goes in, a gate goes up, and usually never comes back down... not some wimpy chain link thing either.
Twelve inch steel main posts, sometimes eight feet tall, are filled with concrete, with a rail running well off each side (or huge rocks are piled alongside) to prevent motorcycles from going around.
Hinged on one of the massive posts, is a 12" x 12" steel I-beam, which forms the gate. Some of the old gates are two pieces of railroad track welded flat sides together.
The lock is inside a pipe, inside a pipe, and requires two hands... one to lift/tip the lock up and the other to put the key through a hole in the side of the pipe.
To shoot the lock off would be nearly impossible... many gates show signs of people's failed attempts to use the "hot key".
Nothing short of a cutting torch and a lift truck is getting past one... if you cut it off it'd be too heavy to move.
It used to be a gentleman's rule, that if you saw a truck parked at a gated spur road, you did not hunt it... "nope, somebody's already got that one, we'll go on up the road a piece" my dad would say.
A spur road might go 1/2 a mile or it might go 13 1/2 miles.
Anymore long logging truck trails are being gated, and permits are being sold at extremely high prices for the combination/right to get in.
Krusty 
[ March 16, 2004, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 15, 2004, 07:20 PM:
Actually Leonard you have a great point. Here if not for the conservation efforts of private land owners and outfitters, there would be very few big deer and antelope taken. The tracts of public get hunted hard and they will kill anything from spikes on up. If not for some of the deer that we let mature moving into these areas very few mature bucks would ever be taken on public land. And I don't mind that a bit. Now I am just talking about this portion of eastern Wyoming that has large amounts of private land.
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on March 16, 2004, 03:19 PM:
Hey Cal
Just read an article on your elk becoming paralyzed, I hear your up to 300 in the last month and know one knows why. I hope this doesn't effect your hunting. I hope they can figure it out.
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