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Author
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Topic: Hunting East of the Big River.
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted March 09, 2004 08:42 AM
Hunting East of the Big River.
First off, I'm no expert, and never claimed to be. But I have been blessed with a good memory, I can recall both what has worked for me, and what I've been told has worked for others. I've had the good fortune to be able to sit in the presence of some great hunters and listen to everything they had to say, questions not only of my own, but of many other hunters around me.
I’m starting this thread mostly as a response to some questions brought up in another thread. These aren’t new questions. I’ve been hearing, and asking the same ones myself for years. I don’t have any definitive answers to offer. Just the opinion of myself, my observations and the opinions and observations I’ve gleaned from others over the years.
There are three large differences I’ve noticed over the years, between hunting coyotes East and West of the Mississippi river. These are differences in population densities, size of areas hunted, and for lack of a better word, Visual differences.
The population density of both humans and coyotes is inverted from the Western States as compared to the Eastern States. In the West, human populations are rather sparse, as compared to the East. That’s not to say you won’t find huge tracts of open land in the East. They are there, but due to the enormous number of people living in the Eastern States, those open tracts of land are few and far between. On similarity of the people living both East and West, nearly everyone with a rifle has the same reaction to seeing a coyote. If they see a coyote, they shoot at the coyote. It doesn’t take a coyote very long to figure out, the secret to survival is to stay out of human sight. That is a feat easier to accomplish in areas of low human density.
A coyote is going to react to every distress sound it hears. It may not always respond, and go to the sound, but it will react. A coyote that has heard the same sound recently and responded only to get shot at may react by moving in the opposite direction. While a coyote that hasn’t heard that sound lately, and doesn’t associate it with gunfire, will readily approach what sounds like an easy meal. The biggest lesson here is practice your shooting. Shoot from hunting positions, the best way to screw up hunting for yourself and other hunters is to shoot at and miss the coyote.
Some coyotes will react simply by staying put. Listening to sounds and weighing their options. They may have just eaten a big meal, and are too full to want anything else to eat. They may have run all night and are too cold and tired and only want to rest at the time. Or they may simply to be too scared to want to expose them selves. These coyotes can still be called, they just take a little longer and a little more effort on the hunter’s part. Coyotes are social animals; they like to be with others of their own kind. A few barks, yips and howls associated with coyote feeding and socializing with others can draw even the full, weary and scared coyote out of the brush to join his companions. One of my personal favorite ways to tweak a coyote’s interest is to throw a few fluttering bird sounds into the mix, twenty minutes into the stand. It seems to add justification to the coyote as to why that rabbit has been screaming for so long. A coyote listening to a rabbit scream for 20 minutes or so can’t help but be curious. Now he hears what he believes to be a young predatory bird, getting whipped on by the same rabbit he is trying to kill. Curiosity may have killed the cat, but it also is the demise of many coyotes. He may respond to steal the food from the bird, to stop the fight and end the ruckus or simply to watch what is going on. The key is tweaking the coyote’s natural hunger, curiosity or social desires.
Now that the coyote is heading your way, we come to what I believe to be the biggest problem of hunting coyotes in the East; seeing the coyote.
This can be broken into two categories; problems with the terrain, and having your eyes accustomed to finding game. Problems with terrain can many times be overcome simply by a change in the hunter’s position. Accustoming one’s eyes to locating game is something that only comes with time spent looking. It’s easy to spot a coyote standing 100 yards out in the middle of the Alfalfa field. But the coyote you need to find is the one standing behind the bush 10 yards outside of the field, or trotting down the ditch two feet below the surrounding ground level. If you are not in a position to see these areas, you are not going to find the coyotes. The problem is if you can see the coyote, they can see you. Electronic calls really shine at this point. They focus the attention of the coyote away from you. Movement is your best friend, and your worst enemy. Movement of the coyote is your best way to find him, however a coyote’s eyes are much better at detecting movement than are human eyes. Many eastern coyotes have justified fear of exposing themselves. When he stops to check for safety before committing himself to the open, he is looking for movement. If you move, he will leave and you may never see him exit.
Nearly everyone who reads me speaking of movement knows full well I am talking about everyone, but them. They know they hold completely still all of the way though a stand. You want to make a bet? Take a video camera out, set it up on a tripod fifty yards from your seat and film yourself for a morning of hunting. You won’t believe just how much you move. A good way to practice holding still is to put your back against a tree and try keeping both shoulder blades touching it for a full 30 minute stand. After a few hundred trees, it will become second nature to sit down and not move anything below your shoulders.
My next topic is travel. How often have you read of Leonard, Danny or any other Western hunter driving to a different state to hunt? It isn’t because they don’t have coyotes there close to home, but they know that other places have higher coyote densities. One of my personal favorite spots to hunt here in Arizona is a two hour drive on the highway. Yet I was up and outside at 1:30 this morning, running the coyotes away from the house so the dogs would shut up and I could get some sleep. 5,000 acres is a lot, if you have to pay the taxes on it. But in terms of hunting area, it’s not much. Look for new places to hunt, places that are out of the way and not easily accessed. Visit with farmers in the next county. If you are from the city, do your best not to act like it when you talk to folks who live in the country. If a farmer let’s you in behind his locked gates to hunt, stay on the roads, don’t take target practice with in earshot of him. All those shots will worry him. If you kill a coyote, show it to him. He will respond by telling his neighbors and opening up more areas to hunt.
I’ve quite a bit more to write on the subject, unfortunately, it’s time for me to go to work. The high price of gas is making it harder and harder to fund my coyote hunting. I need to hit the lottery. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I’ll work on a part 2 tomorrow.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted March 09, 2004 11:18 AM
Tim your right on the money. I didn't read your post until after I posted about the same thing in another thread. FWIW, it made a lot more sence the way you wrote it.
Good Hunting
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted March 09, 2004 12:59 PM
A great lesson Tim; Look forward to the sequel. thanks.
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted March 09, 2004 03:51 PM
Tim,
I am reading two different threads on this same subject. And I appreciate the info. The biggest difference I get out of your reply is pressure, and I believe that most eastern coyotes recieve more pressure just like you stated due to more people being around, and that MOST western coyotes don't recieve that kind of pressure, but some do. There are places in Wyoming and western South Dakota and probably several other states that have been in the sheep business for generations. And those generations of coyotes are completely different than the atypical definition of "western" coyotes. They are almost completely nocturnal. They howl very rarely, and only in the dark. They rarely respond to distress calls and usually if they do it is a sneak and peek type of deal. They are almost impossible to trap or snare. And I know for a fact that they teach their subsequent generations the same habits. The only way that some of these coyotes get killed is tracking and hunting from the air on fresh snow, and they are succeptible to calling during denning season if you have dogs and are close enough to their den site. I don't think that the type of intelligence that the eastern coyotes are credited with has any thing to do with a different type of coyote. We have them here too, in places. I think we agree that it is a learned behavior for the most part. But there are obviously some other differences though. Crow Woman pointed out some major differences that I didn't know anything about. In some habits and size factors, and vocalizations. So I am still learning. One thing that I do also know for a fact is that every year there are a lot of "western" coyotes and fox live trapped and shipped to PA. for the hound and horse clubs. I'm sure that alot of it is not legal, but it happens. So some of our strain of coyotes is getting in there for sure.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 10, 2004 08:17 PM
Cal, I've read that the present coyote population in Florida and So. Carolina are the descendants of coyotes imported by houndsmen in those states. I've also read (Systematics and Ecology of the Eastern Coyote)that the nomer Eastern coyote was originally applied to the large coyote that displayed some wolf characteristics and emigrated from Canada to the New England States. This is the animal all the legends evolved from.
I agree with you, Cal, human densities and subsequent control pressure on the coyote shaped and formed the survivors into an entirely different animal than the ones predator callers see running in to their stands with such enthusiasm. Broken terrain and thick cover make calling them more difficult as well.
I speak with Sheri often and a topic that absolutely fascinates me is the difference in coyote vocalizations between the coyotes on her farm and the coyotes I have encountered in sixteen states. I've encouraged her to write an article for publication on the topic and hopefully it will appear soon. ch
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted March 11, 2004 04:24 AM
Not that MO is east of the river, but these are my opinions based upon my experience.
I have hunted in MO,Tx,and AZ this year and can see no difference in the intelligence of coyotes east v west. And I use the word intelligence loosely. To me, the coyotes reacted to the sounds the same in AZ as they do in MO. The big difference is the stands. The very worst stand in AZ is 10 times better than the best one in MO. By stand, I mean able to approach your calling spot silently and undetected. Able to see long distances and your sounds are reaching places where a coyote could be resting or hunting.Also, the stand provides scattered cover which allows the coyote to approach with confidence. Most of my stands in MO allow you to see a coyote at 100 yards. Sometimes much less. I use squirells and birds to tell me when a coyote is on the way and from what direction.
And, as Tim said, there is a population difference. The entire season in MO, I could carry all the coyote poop I found in 2 cupped hands. In TX and AZ it would have required a wash tub.There is plenty of pressure here, but most of the time the coyotes are just on edge around trucks. Even with that fear, sometimes you can call them from your truck or when you can't get the vehicle completely hidden.
In the past 20 years, I have seen no difference in how coyotes respond to my calls. Years ago they seemed easier to call, but there were more of them. In the past, I have averaged 1 coyote seen per 7 stands. This year in MO I quit counting after 100 consecutive stands without 1 coyote spotted. It really didn't matter after that.
I started using howls the past 2 years and I am still in preschool with this sound. However, to me they seemed most effective during November and February. To be honest, prey distress worked just as well in February as howling. I would use one or the other on a stand and the number of coyotes called were almost equal.
Thinking about howling and breeding season reminds me of a story about a group of turkey hunters at camp the night before turkey season opened. They were all practicing with their calls, giving out the most sexy mating yelps each could muster. When they had finished, one of the old men turned to a young boy on his first hunt and asked him to give it a try. When the boy had finished the old man chuckled and said, Son I don't know about the mating call, but you sure have that feeding call down. The boy looked at him and said, That gobbler I am going after in the morning is too old for sex, but he has to eat sometime.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 11, 2004 07:47 AM
I have never hunted east of Colorado, that's as far "east" as I care to venture. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
But, from the perspective of a westerner, the problems of the easterner are sometimes a bit difficult to fathom.
Out here, we look for sign , we look for habitat , we look for density ; and that's where we invest our time and energy .
One thing that Sheri said was about the lack of rabbits and the type of distress calls she uses. Since she had few rabbits, she tended not to use rabbit distress. I see very little relationship between the numbers of prey animals available, and the effectiveness of the distress sounds. There are many other factors in your sound selection, besides tailoring the call sounds to the available diet. It can be as simple as using a unique sound, such as a "javelina" distress sound in Pennsylvania. It can also be just as effective to use jackrabbit sounds where they do not occur.
Distress is distress. To illustrate, only, and NOT to make me seem any smarter than other people, let me share this.
I remember what Lochi told me when I got to Africa. Jackals were different, you had to do this and that.
We watched his method for about three stands and (I think) changed his way of doing things forever. African predators have never heard a jackrabbit squeal, but they were interested, all the same.
He used a remote controlled decoy at night, with motion (and noise) and tried to call these animals to locally recorded sounds. His procedure was to walk his decoy and speaker out about 100 yards from the vehicle. This meant that the predator's eye focus was on the sound, and it was difficult to pick up shine, from the vehicle, instead relying on picking up the body of the animal as it approached the decoy. And, at this point, he would activate the motor, and the "decoy" would spin at a rather high rate of speed, (making a whiring sound) with the intent of luring them closer yet.
Remember, all of these methods, he had probably read about, at one time or another. All had been used with success.
I showed him that his jackals would approach the vehicle, without polluting the area by walking around in the dark, and they (jackals, like coyotes) were not selective in the authenticity of the distress sound. Also, the eyes would be focused on the light source, which was the same as the source of the sound. An important concept, if you want to pick up that shine as soon as possible.
I can say this without fear of contradiction; that motion is not a requirement, at night. Motion might even be debatable on day stands; at least as it applies to coyotes; other than multiples? Cats, maybe it's more effective to use some motion?
I could go on, such as his belief that jackals could not be called on day stands, but I think I have illustrated the concept as well as can be expected.
Neither Lochi, or the vast majority of eastern hunters are unskilled , but it helps to see things from a different perspective.
Many eastern coyote hunters come out west and score. But, the second half of the equation is to apply what they learned to local conditions. That needs to be done, wherever you are.
I admit, I wouldn't know what to do if I didn't have access to public land. I have no concept of the various problems faced by eastern predator hunters, but I think I could adapt once those problems became apparent.
Visibility is a big thing, and if the cover is tight, as it is across much of the eastern U.S., then I would consider firearm alternatives and prudent volume control. On the one hand, you need to get their attention with high volume, but once you get it, you still need to coax them into shotgun (type) range.
You are swimming upstream, back east. The quarry is more timid, there is less animals, (quantity) the cover is confined, plus things I haven't thought of, yet. So, to score, an easterner would need to adjust his style, as opposed to what we do out here, and that's exactly what they do. No magic formula. Unfortunately, there is no substitute for abundance.
I think Tim has a very good perspective, since he has lived, and hunted both sides of that river.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 11, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bluetrapper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 288
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posted March 11, 2004 03:07 PM
I agree with Tim for the most part.I've just returned to predator calling and trapping after a 25 yr. absence.It has changed some since the 70's.Rarely will a coyote stand and look at you when you drive by now,I killed 15 to 20 a year that way in the 70's.
I called in Colo.this Jan.as well as here in Iowa.They just plain come in faster and with less caution in Colo.In most cases here in Iowa they won't come in to shooting range unless they have some cover to do it in.I firmly believe they almost always respond to distress or coyotes sounds.Tim hit on what I believe is the biggest problem we have here .That is getting set up in an area that has coyotes,then find an area that gives them some cover to come in,but doesn't inhibit your ability to see them.Then of course the wind needs to be right.If you can get all of these factors working for you then you've got a chance.I believe that if there are coyotes in the area I attract them in 90% of the time.I also believe that 90% of the time they get down wind of me and I never see them.In Colo. we didn't have alot of luck but do to the set ups I don't think a coyote got down wind of us.
I also believe Cals post on coyotes that become almost totally nocturnal and that they watch other coyotes and learn from them.I've witnessed old females digging up traps (very carefully)and another coyote standing off and watching.I don't believe however that there was ever a coyote born that I couldn't snare.That just amounts to getting them to go thru the area you want to snare them. Bluetrapper
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M.J.D.
Posts: 21 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Weedwacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 329
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posted March 12, 2004 09:47 AM
I'm new to this board and relatively new to coyote hunting, but I think I have one item to add to the list of Eastern calling problems. Getting permission on private property is the biggest barrier I have had to overcome in my area. The average parcel size in most rural areas within a hundred miles of me (Northern IN/Sounthern MI) is probably less than 70 acres. A farm with 2000 acres or more is considered HUGE here, and most of those tend to be open croplands. There is just not enough time in a season to be able to get on enough places to hunt this country like it should be hunted. The best wildlife habitat has often been sold off in 50 or 60 acre parcels to people from outside the area who show up in November to deer hunt. Most other good ground gets the hunting rights leased to out-of-towners and often the owners feel they better not let anyone else on for any type of hunting. It's a constant struggle and I've basically come to consider it a part of the hunt. You guys that hunt out west should picture the areas you hunt being chopped into parcels of various shapes and sizes from 5 to 160 acres, each belonging to various people, some who live 150 miles away. Under those circumstances how many coyotes can you shoot in a season without trespassing?
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Weedwacker
http://pub119.ezboard.com/bindianapredatorcentral
Posts: 34 | From: Angola, IN USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 12, 2004 07:18 PM
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, weedwacker. Glad to have you on board.
As I mentioned, I wouldn't know how to deal with access, if I didn't have so much BLM land available to me. It's got to be a challenge.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bluetrapper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 288
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posted March 13, 2004 02:38 PM
Weedwacker,
We don't have quite the access problems you do but they are getting worse.I'll offer a couple of ideas.I can gain access to most any area here by letting the owners know I can help control the predators.I usually hunt and trap an area.Do what was said in an earlier post,show the owner the predators you kill.You also have to develop a relation ship with the owner so he knows he can trust you. Tell him everything you plan to do.Don't target practice on his land and don't bring anyone with you .You might bring a partner latter after he trusts you.I own several hundred acres and it seems every time I allow someone to hunt they bring a partner then in a week the partner shows up on his own and trespasses and I have to run him off.Another thing that I do on a couple of places owned by absentee hunters is offer to watch over the place in the off season particularly the weeks leading up to the seasons they will come and hunt.I don't mean to stand guard but tell them you will drive by occasionally. Bluetrapper
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M.J.D.
Posts: 21 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bluetrapper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 288
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posted March 13, 2004 02:43 PM
R Shaw
I live and hunt about 80 miles north of you. I agree with most that you said in your post.E mail me and I'll offer a couple of things that have helped call in more coyotes to shooting range. Bluetrapper
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M.J.D.
Posts: 21 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 13, 2004 04:01 PM
Bluetrapper, post it here rather than E-mail. Share with all of us.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 13, 2004 06:08 PM
Weedwhacker,
I can empathize only too well with what you describe. The nationwide explosion in trophy whitetail deer numbers in the wake of the implementation of the Farm Bill and CRP in the early '80's has triggered a groundswell of interest by elitists who lease and lock. Not to jump up on my stump, but this is an issue that is BIG in Kansas these days and one of the reasons I miss a lot of sleep at night.
Rarely do I find a new landowner that can understand just what calling predators is about. They're cocnerned that my intrusion on their land will prove to be a disruption to all hunting, not realizing that most experienced callers can enter, call, and exit without stirring up anything if they don't shoot. Rarely do I even bump a pheasant from its bed if I watch myself. Those that have granted me access are almost always certain to follow in kind next year.
BLM would be a God send for me. I spent the better part of a week talking with landowners this year and got 57 signatures worth 19,000 acres. And I burned that much up pretty fast this year. By comparison, a guy I hunted with made one phone call in his area and had 50K acres. Damn!
One of the good things about KS is our liability protection for private landowners. I didn't really appreciate this until a trip to Michigan a few years back. I took my calls in hopes of calling a critter for my g-friend's brother-in-law. We must have talked to twenty people and couldn't get permission from a single one because of their concern that we might get hurt and sue them. In Kansas, as long as you don't request anything in exchange for permission to trespass (i.e., fees, barter), state statute holds you immune from liability for injuries or death that occur while hunting, fishing, trapping or any other outdoor pursuit. This law is to encourage private landowners to allow people on their land and it worked pretty well until lease hunting came along. Times have changed.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2004 06:19 PM
Lance, I thought that "lease" stuff was only in Texas? Just goes to show that any bad idea catches on quick, especially when it shuts average guys out of low impact access.
The lawyers win another one and everybody runs scared.
PS ditto on what Rich Higgins said. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted March 13, 2004 06:31 PM
There are lots of 80-300 acre farms that are bought for the soul purpose of deer hunting. Several right around my house. These nonresident landowners are only around during deer season and sometimes for spring turkey season. I am not a deer hunter and I can't wait for the season to end. It usually takes about 2 weeks for things to return to normal around here.
It would be next to impossible to keep track of who owns these farms. A few change hands 2-3 times a year. After deer season has ended, I just pull up to the gate and go hunting. Leave my truck in plain sight and if someone is waiting for me when I return, I take my ass-eating. Never received one yet.
I have lived on a farm all my life and I know most of the farmers in the county. I do ask permission from them and have never been turned down. I am talking about coyote hunting. Some lease their land to deer hunters and these farms are off limits until after the orange army has returned home. I don't hunt around their cattle and never drive-in if it is muddy. I basically treat their land and property with respect. Some farmers want to go along and are always welcome.
I know that a lot of times , I am guilty of trespassing. But if there are no cattle, frozen gound, and the fact that I am not trying to kill someones 170 class buck, what is it hurting? I own a few acres myself. If I looked out my kitchen window and saw someone calling a coyote, I would be happy for them. Not jealous. And, in my opinion, it is jealousy that causes most of the disputes when it comes to hunting and the land we hunt.
I really don't think anyone owns the land anyway. We just lease it for the short time we are on this earth.
I will now prepare for the dogpile.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2004 06:41 PM
Don't worry about getting beat up, you made sense to me and if somebody doesn't agree with you, they can politely say so, and leave it at that.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted March 13, 2004 08:14 PM
Randy, No dog pile but it sure doesn't work that way here. Trespassing is illegal and fairly severely punished here. Not to mention that if you get caught you have made an enemy out of a rancher and he will not forget your name. I grew up on a ranch not far from here and my family and myself are fairly well known and so I don't have alot of problem getting permission to hunt if I am just out for some fun, and I do a little contract denning still for some guys so I get paid for some work here and there, but I hear every year of guys from town sneaking where they don't belong and it ruins it for a lot of other recreational callers. We have some public locally too so anyone that really wants to hunt can do so legally, but the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Also most ranchers realize that most recreational callers do more harm than good as far as actual control. They educate far more than they actually kill and thats not good when one of the educated ones start killing livestock, and someone else has to come take care of that problem coyote. He is already wise to calling and much harder to kill. Now I know that most of the guys here are better hunters than most, but we are a small minority compared to John Q. Coyotecaller. Anyway, back to the main subject, I'm not a big landowner here, but I think trespassing is wrong, no matter what the circumstances.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2004 09:51 PM
Excellent job of getting your point across, Cal.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 14, 2004 06:22 AM
Randy, I agree with you, but I don't want to spend the limited time I have here on earth in the county lockup . Sadly, this whole TX lease thing is relatively new to Kansas and the guys that use it and have the money for it are well-known for overkill as far as getting even for trespassing. Heck, my neighbor got into a verbal pissin' match with one guy and is now looking down both barrels of a felony threat charge. Oops! Around here, you trespass and 9 times out of 10, you'll see the owner's truck go slowly by, followed several minutes later by a game warden or sheriff's deputy. Rather than an ass-chewing, you get advised of your rights. There is no gray area. Landowners are too jumpy about confronting strangers for fear of retribution or injury. Our part of the world is crawling with mobile meth labs and some of these guys are "hiding" under the guise of redneck hunters.
To me, getting permission is paramount. Because of leasing, middle-class guys are being forced onto smaller and smaller marginal areas where leasing does not occur. More and more of these guys don't bother asking and it's becoming more irritating to landowner. They don't oppose hunting or support leasing. Heck, they don't even like posting their ground, but they do, because they like to know who is there and why. For me, I don't want any
landowner besmirching my name at the local Co-op in front of his colleagues because it would only take one time. And I, too, was raised here, lived here all my life, went to shool with their kids, church with their parents, and dated their daughters in some cases.
On the up side, I have a lot of these guys that lease or guarantee their places for deer hunting who advise the leasee or hunter that I am allowed onto that parcel for coyotes and bobcats after deer season is closed and that they are not to disturb me. The down side, I'm ass deep in deer mounts and don't have any time to call until the heads are caped and salted. Oh, well.
not dog lilin'. You just have a pretty good situation goin'.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 14, 2004 06:40 AM
....anybody want to talk about locked gates on public land? That's a problem I see, sometimes when coming in from the back side!
Know what it's like to have to turn around and drive fifty miles in the wrong direction, on a ¼ tank of gas?
These guys usually own three acres of frontage, or run a few cows on open range.
Access is a big problem, everywhere. And, it's not getting any better.
I like the Kansas plan.
AZ has state trust lands. Your only requirement is a hunting license.
There is room for more inventive solutions.
Land; they aren't making any more of it.
Well, if they are; in Hawaii, maybe?
Good hunting. LB
edit: I'm wondering about all that forest, back in Pennsylvania and Maine, for instance. Do they worry about who owns all that land, or if it's some big Corporate ownership?
In the Owens Valley, here in California, the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power owns all the land around the Owens river, three hundred miles away. They prohibit overnight camping, but everybody ignores it. LB
[ March 14, 2004, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bluetrapper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 288
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posted March 14, 2004 07:19 AM
We have opened several topics here all very important to the future of predator hunting and hunting in general.
Trespassing is trespassing and it can't be tolerated. As a land owner in the past I didn't get to excited when I witnessed a hunter on my land.Landowners didn't care as long as it wasn't deer season.The problem now is the slob hunter and as I mentioned in an earlier post the hunting buddy coming in on his own.I don't let predator hunters in as I want to keep my own for myself.(I wouldn't care if they didn't do such a good job of educating the coyotes, I do enough of that myself.)
I know what Cal is talking about in the west.On an elk hunt in Colo. 20 yrs ago I couldn't believe we couldn't cross the fence to retrieve a bull elk that jumped the fence and died.The guy I was hunting with not only was afraid of arrest but also being shot at.
As far as coyotes becoming educated and becoming stock killers,that rarely happens here or farther east they just rarely prey on livestock.Once in a while they will take a sheep or a baby calf but that is rare. When they become educated they just get hard to call. Bluetrapper
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M.J.D.
Posts: 21 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bluetrapper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 288
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posted March 14, 2004 07:53 AM
Rich,
The first thing I do is use howling to locate them.There isn't coyotes over every ridge or in every creek bottom.I use a rally group sound but usually start with a single howl first.I drive the roads at night doing this.It is very rare to get a howl responce in the daytime and rarely just before daylight.The responces I get are in the quiet areas (creek bottoms , brushy draws ,timbers etc. away from houses or buildings).I firmly believe that if I'm in one of those good areas and don't get a responce then they just aren't there. I use a e caller with plenty of volume and studio grade sounds.I'm not very good with a mouth howler but I believe the studio grade sound and the volume make all the difference.Now there is no guarantee they will be in that area when you go to call in the morning but after a while you will know the area's they like to stay in during the day and you can save time by hunting areas they rarely use during the day.
Unless they are young and haven't heard the cottontail distress much they will respond with extreme caution or not at all so I use other sounds. As mentioned in an earlier post it is natural for them to respond to any distress the trick is to get them to come into shooting range.
As I mentioned in an earlier post I believe the biggest problem I have here in Iowa is to get set up in the best possible place that is wind,open enough to see them except with some cover for them to come in and not let them get down wind with out getting a shot at them first. I try to get set up as high as possible. Bluetrapper
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M.J.D.
Posts: 21 | From: Iowa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted March 14, 2004 08:35 AM
One thing I forgot to mention. I know that in many states land has to be posted to be considered trespassing. Here it doesn't work that way. Nothing has to be posted. It is the hunters responsibility to know where he is and whos land he is on. I think thats the way it should be. Otherwise you get too much of the "oh, I didn't see the sign" BS. I lease several big ranches for the big game since I am an outfitter here, and trespassers are a constant problem during big game seasons. It's funny though, once you get a reputation for turning guys in and prosecuting, the word gets around and the trespassing slows or stops. Believe it or not our biggest problem is locals and not out of state hunters. Probably runs about 80% vs 20%. It can be the pits when you catch someone you know, or their kids. It's made even worse by the fact that you know that they know exactly where they are and who they are on.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted March 14, 2004 08:47 AM
Untill I'm proven wrong, I think the biggest problem I see with the Eastern hunters is that they lose sight of the rule #1 of coyote hunting. "If you want to shoot a coyote, You have to put yourself in a postion to not only see the coyote, You have to be in postion to shoot the coyote." I"m not sure,but I think Bill Austin made that quote?
From what I'm reading on these boards, I get the impression that most eastern hunters are way so hung up on the concealment and movement issues that they are unwilling to compromise on what they feel(or have heard) is the perfect set-up. My favorite line is, "Be sure to take along a pruning shear so you can cut a hidey-hole in a bush" LOL
I make alot of setups in smaller, open pastures,hayfields, corn and bean stubble fields, surrounded by heavy timber and brush. Naked to the world, so to speak, and I'm still able to get the job done. Just watch your silhouette and if that's an issue, go prone. If your reasonably camouflaged, slow deliberate movement can be to your advantage. It will hold a coyote,that's on the edge, long enough for you to shoot him and if you can believe this, at times it will even draw him out of the cover for a better look. Most of the time they think your just some big fat blop out in the middle of the field. By the time they fiqure out your a man, they should be dead.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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