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Author
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Topic: Barking Coyote, won't come in
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Rich Higgins
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posted December 21, 2003 02:35 PM
Everyone has had it happen, and you wonder just what they are doing out there. Are they frightened? Are they nervously pacing about while barking. Tyler filmed one last Wed. evening that came straight in toward the call and stopped 100 yards out and began baking which soon escalated to threat bark howls. The beauty of this stand was that Tyler was lying prone on top of a two story rock with a loudmouth caller at the base, and to his right Mattie was loose and guarding the rock. Tyler was able to see down into the chapperal from his elevated position and film the coyote. Over a period of twelve minutes the coyote began barking in the direction of the caller. After a few minutes Mattie bawled at it and the coyote began the threat bark howls. This continued for a couple of minutes and then the coyote sat down on the game trail it was on and continued barking. The light was fading fast and as it began to get dark, eleven minutes after the coyote first barked, it stood up, stretched it's back looong and low, raised it's left rear leg and stretched it way behind it, stood up, walked forward three steps, squatted and dumped. It obviously did not have to go because it strained for 30 seconds or so in order to lay that little present. It then turned and walked a couple of steps up the hill away from the camera, stopped and scratched/pawed/kicked dirt in the direction of the scat and the call, then trotted off.. A lot of attitude from this little guy and very entertaining.
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted December 21, 2003 04:13 PM
Rich, sounds like you are(at least Tyler) is getting some great footage.
It is always interesting to watch God's creatures and try and understand them.
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted December 23, 2003 07:16 PM
I think is last actions conveyed the true meaning of his vocalizations.
Ronnie
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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jerry
Knows what it's all about
Member # 195
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posted December 25, 2003 03:16 PM
Rich , Curt and i were on a stand one morning , this female coyote started with a warning bark shortly after we started callin . Felling we had already been BUSTED , and having nothing better to do we started returning her scolding back at her . I was seated about 50 yrds down wind of Curt , and a lil in front of him . After both of us both blowing our howlers with threat barks back at her she came in . Curt took her at about 20 to 30 yrds as she was making her way in behind me .Both of us were amazed this coyote came in , as we had always been told that once you get a warning bark you may as well move on , I have used this same technique several times since and have been rewarded with fur . it doesnt always work , but once in a while it does . What do you make of this ??? thanks , Jerry .
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heck yeah Ill take my wife callin, when she learns how to skin a coyote.
Posts: 30 | From: washington state | Registered: May 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 28, 2003 11:36 AM
Jerry, barks are as misunderstood as most coyote vocalizations. I read and hear a lot of contradictory information about barking and none of it is new. In 1819 Thomas Say gave the coyote the scientific name Canis Latrans, barking dog, because he felt that defined the coyote more than any other quality. Yet in 1825 Missouri posted the first bounty, five dollars, on coyotes and the intense pressure that that large sum of money generated drove the coyote into silence and a nocturnal behavior. No howling, no barking. Apparently barking is not the coyotes defining quality.
In the 60s and 70s Texas denners would scout for denning areas from horseback with their dogs. The coyotes would intercept them and bark to decoy them. The denners would backtrack to the den and remove the pups. The coyotes soon stopped barking at intruders.
Even the great communication researchers Camanzind and Lehner place a too narrow focus on barking.
Camanzind(1974) defines barks within the context "interspecific agonistic encounter" and function "alarm and challenge". Personally I know that coyotes will bark at each other (intraspecific) and will do so during play, not just as an alarm or threat function.
Lehner(1976) also defines barks within the context " long distance agonistic (threat) alarm of low to medium intensity." However Fox(1971)found that coyotes bark to co-ordinate hunting movements. And Tembrock(1965) hypothesized that "frequency, duration and repetition of canid barks determine the information transmitted, and amplitude and frequency may also be important."
Theberge found that these same qualities transmitted a wide variety of information by wolves during howling sessions.
If Tembroke is correct then it would seem that barks convey a lot more information than alarm and threat and they would be both intraspecific and interspecific. This information is probably useful when considering the type of statements you refer to by other callers. I.E. barking coyotes have busted you and you may as well break stand and move along. This just isn't true. First I don't know that 'warning' barks are actually warning anyone or anything. They may be responding to an unknown sound in the same manner my dog will when it's too lazy or timid , at that point in time, to approach and investigate. Coyote communication is graded, so raise the stakes a notch, as you did, and increase the intensity of your barks to a higher level. If they still don't approach, move in on them or at least change position to a closer area and begin calling again. We will approach them in full view by disguising our human form. We are in the process of videoing our "ugly cow" approaching coyotes now. We have moved in on barking coyotes that came in to the calls and then moved off and began barking by zig-zagging in on their position. As long as we don't move directly at them they sometimes let us approach fairly closely. Doug aka vintagemxer posted photos on this board last year of us doing this while calling with him. We use the same technique on coyotes threat bark howling at us. Dr. Sceery, in his very good video on howling, said of the threat bark howl "when I hear this sound I get pretty upset, get in my pickup and drive at least five miles away--" That is not the case with us. The same technique will often work on these coyotes as long as we don't further alarm the coyote. A coyote that is willing to invest this kind of emotion in an encounter, rather than just retreat, is probably within defended territory. Granted,
I have moved in on those coyotes and listened to their howls recede into the distance, but usually they will stand their ground and, given the right sounds, even coaxed in.
There is only one way to learn for certain how the coyotes in your neighborhood will respond after barking or howling. You seem to be onto it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 28, 2003 12:21 PM
Well, I'll tell you what, Rich. I'm not so much a student of the coyote behavior, in general, as yourself.
I do have a lot of emperical data, or experience that seems to support what Ed Sceery had to say.
Namely, (and specifically) when calling at night, using distress sounds, and getting a bark or howl or any vocal, in response. It's like a disease, it spreads, from one stand, to the next, and the only way to defeat it is as Ed suggested, drive beyond the coyote's ability to communicate or relay the alarm. Five miles would be a minimum.
But, if we ignore the vocalization, and attempt to call them into shooting range, it usually amounts to a waste of time. They almost never look at a light when the bark, or howl. I don't know the why of it, but it is extremely difficult to pinpoint their location, other than by sound, for the direction, and volume, to determine distance.
Yes, we can eventually get them within range by moving a short distance, or shutting down and waiting. It's usually more economical to move out of range of their communication. In other words, they don't seem to relay the warning, automatically.
My impression is that they put neighboring packs on notice, and when we begin a stand, they suddenly understand the reasons why they received a warning, and light up. This is a pattern that I have witnessed many many times.
I can also add that it is primarily a nighttime phenomena, aand it seems to have something to do with moon phases, or light shyness, or mysterious conditions that we will never understand. Of course, there are times when they know you are there, a careless sound, stray wind currents, poor lighting techniques, and other giveaways.
Daytime, my guess is that it's primarily visual. They saw you drive in, they saw you set up, they see your truck, and lastly, they don't see any reason for the distress? This is why I don't put a caller out where they can comb the entire area from cover, and decide that it doesn't add up, and they aren't going to run out and expose themselves, when there is no accompaning visual.
All guesses, but food for thought?
Rich? Scott? Anybody?
Good hunting. LB
edit: by "no accompaning visual" I mean that they don't see anything, including a possible hiding place; which is why I try to place the source of the sound under brush, or any type of possible hiding place. They don't seem to question the sound if it's coming from a cluster of brush out in the middle of a bare patch of ground.
[ December 28, 2003, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32366 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 28, 2003 12:53 PM
Leonard, this night time hunting is out of my element. It is a different ball game from daytime calling. I do not know how you could move in on barking coyotes at night without alerting them to what you are. It can be done in the day. Coyotes barking DO alert all coyotes within hearing and as my post said those barks have the potential of conveying a great deal of information. What you are overlooking is the situation as Jerry described and as I described. A coyote barking does not neccessarily mean that you are identified as a human or that it is ratting you out to all it's friends, family and neighbors. I have set up stands and had coyotes bark that could not possibly have detected me. Perhaps they had prior experience with a similar distress sound, perhaps even in that area. Loud bird or rodent distress, extended over a long period of time cannot be common in nature. They are almost always quickly killed by a predator. This type of sound would be easily recognized by a coyote that had experienced it before, and coyotes do teach others by example and coyotes are capable of observational learning. Just one possibility. It does not mean that a barking coyote signals a death notice for your stand, in the daylight. An enterprising caller can work around a barking or howling coyote. A contest or fur hunter probably would not be inclined to spend the time.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 28, 2003 04:18 PM
Rich, I was not overlooking anything. I was attempting to add to what Ed Sceery had to say on the subject, but do it in a supportive way, with something with which I am very familiar. Night hunting.
And, specifically, vocalization commencing AFTER you start the stand.
Coyotes barking in the daytime are not as large a problem, it seems to me. They can be suckered from a variety of motivations, but none of them are guaranteed to work 100%.
Of course, the group yip howl at dawn is usually not considered a negative, as far as I'm concerned. What the studies say, I don't know? When I hear it, I anticipate action, and it usually doesn't take very long. But, that vocalization seems to occur during setup, before I start calling.
I absolutely believe in the phoenomena where the coyotes seem particularly (collectively) silent, either regionally, or seasonally. For instance, they don't howl as often on a new moon, and for many hours after aerial bombing, or mining explosions. What is your take on silent coyotes?
Good hunting. LB
[ December 28, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32366 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 28, 2003 07:05 PM
Leonard, concerning group yip howls you said
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But, that vocalization seems to occur during setup, before I start calling."
Do you think your activity elicits the howling or do you think it coicides with the time of your setup?
Phillip Lehner(1982) and Kathleen Fulmer(1990) conducted research into the characterization of coyote vocalizations in response to playback. They learned that coyotes will absolutely go silent during certain social seasons, especially denning and pup-rearing seasons when they try to maintain a low profile and not draw attention to the denning area. But what makes the issue even more confusing is the fact that the researchers have determined that there is as much variation in howling WITHIN seasons as between seasons.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted December 28, 2003 08:38 PM
I can attest to the silent treatment fellas. I started at first light, in a far away place that usually has lots of vocal activity. I covered many many mile this morning, making maybe six stands, and never once, heard a yip,yap or a howl.....dead silence, and gawd was it cold, my finger tips still ache, got down in the mid teens believe it or not.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted December 28, 2003 11:40 PM
I used to believe that when I heard that "warning bark" I might as well pack it up. Not anymore. The game has just begun. I've found more often than not that the coyote or coyotes can still be called. I'm speaking of daytime and if you haven't been totally, visually, busted. I agree with Rich about the coyote starting the so called "warning bark" for other reasons than suspecting human activity. There seem to be several triggers that initiate that type of vocalization.
I notice silent periods through the year. Lately I have found the coyotes to be very vocal. Probably because I howl more this time of year and they are not in the low profile mode for the moment. This mid morning, about 10:30, had 2 very vocal groups yapping back at me from quite a distance. I split the distance between one group and howled again. I was immediately answered from nearby and exchanged another series of howls with them. Started the e-call and had an aggressive hard charger literally pick up my caller.
Another stand, later in the day, I had a couple distant groups howling. What's this mean. Lonely? Territorial? Dunno.
In the words of a respected coyote hunting sage..."they are just a dog". ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 29, 2003 06:25 AM
I want to hear about the coyotes reaction to a Foxpro in his mouth.
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted December 29, 2003 09:44 AM
Rich,
I would like to know what you mean by observational learning.
Are you trying to say a coyote can sit back on a hill and learn something simply by watching?
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted December 29, 2003 10:04 AM
Rich, it was funny as heck. Wish I had it on tape. As fast as he picked it up he spat it out with that "oh sh!t" look on his face. He then tried to make a lightspeed exit as I am whooping like crazy trying to get him to stop. He didn't stop and I took a shot as he was cruising through the sage and missed. He was trying to make it edge of the canyon he came out of. The second shot found it's mark fortunately before he made it.
I got a camcorder for X-Mas from the wife. It's not as nice as the one you fellas use. It is a sub $500 JVC mini DV. I've read mixed reviews on it. I'm hoping to shoot some video. Had a lot of stands that would have been great on tape this year. Need to find someone to hunt with to share shooting and camera work. If it works out ok I guess I can upgrade the camcorder later.
Take care, Curt
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted December 29, 2003 10:43 AM
I too would like to know more about totaly silent coyotes.
I think that the few we do have here, were forced into silence, and a fully nocturnal lifestyle.
What effects do lion and bear populations seem to have upon vocalizations of coyotes?
What effect do coyote vocalizations seem to have on bobcats (will it really scare em away)?
Curt,
Brad H has mounted his video camera on top of his scope, and it produces an "I am there" view for his videos (not unlike your "the shot" pics) that really give an understanding of that particular stand.
It shakes a bit on the recoil of the gun, but I believe he used a 300mag for some of the filming and the camera was still running... even though the coyote was not (usually, eh Brad? lol).
Maybe on the days you hunt alone you could use a system like Brad's.
He also uses the video camera as his high powered, wide open country, spotting scope... a little camcorder with a screen would be awesome for that, and that might suit your wide open part of the world as well.
Jeff 
[ December 29, 2003, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 29, 2003 04:29 PM
quote:
Do you think your activity elicits the howling or do you think it coicides with the time of your setup?
I'm sure that they aren't responding to what I'm doing. As I wrote; they generally come in soon afterwards.
I also think that it definitely coincides with the time, (crack of dawn) while setting up the first stand of the morning.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32366 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 29, 2003 05:34 PM
Leonard, I asked the question because coyotes will group-yip howl in response to a possible intrusion. It is a territorial claim and one function is to communicate the packs location and minimize contact with intruders, a form of passive avoidance. If you move on their position and return a yip-howl or group yip-howl you will usually crank the intensity up a notch and elicit threat bark howls. As long as you don't use something that will alarm them most any sound will bring them on in.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 29, 2003 05:45 PM
Randy, I remember your position on coyote intelligence and learning ability from a long discussion on this board within the last year. Very conservative. I'm not. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
To answer your question; yes, to a degree. You do not need to hit a coyote in the head with a hammer to make it fear you and your hammer. It can learn to fear you and the hammer by watching you hit another coyote in the head. Anyone disagree? How about this then-- the coyotes pups can learn to fear you and your hammer by picking up on moms fear and reactions to encounters with you and your hammer.
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Crow Woman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 157
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posted December 30, 2003 02:08 AM
excellent Rich! When I'm just on my farm hunting, that is why alot of my calls have become obsulete... the coyotes have been there, done that and they ain't going back for another round. Almost always, there has been another coyote hanging up in the scrubs while I've taken the first one-first see, out.
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Sheri L Baity
Lord, Please give me peace, because if you give me strength, I might beat someone to death!
Posts: 720 | From: Covington | Registered: Mar 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted December 30, 2003 04:14 AM
Krusty, thanks for the info. I'll have to give Brad a call and pic his brain on what kind of mount he has set up. The camera would make a great spotting scope.
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted December 30, 2003 04:25 AM
Rich,
I respect your knowledge of coyotes. I read and reread your posts and have learned a lot, especially the ones concerning howling. But I do disagree with you from time to time.
I have 3 dogs that follow me to the highway every morning. One morning one of the dogs was hit by a passing truck. The other two dogs saw Max get knocked into the ditch and they heard him as he yipped his way back to the house carrying a back leg. That was over two months ago and Max still gets nervous by the highway. Some mornings, he will not set foot on the blacktop. The other two are in the middle of the road showing no concern and waiting there turn with a truck.
Say I have a trap set for coyotes and mom and her pups approach.The pups show interest. Now mom has had a bad experience with this particular lure or particular location or both. She warns the pups away by exhibiting fear and nipping at them. They leave the area. Now I'd be willing to bet that the first time ole mom isn't around , I would be able to catch one of those pups.
I am on a stand and two coyotes come running in. I shoot the close one. The other coyote sees his buddy tip over and beats feet in the opposite direction. I quickly switch to coyote distress or coyotes fighting over food and the coyote stops or sometimes actually returns . Now I am not saying this is how it always happens, but it does happen.
I believe most animals must experience situations, good or bad,first hand in order to learn. They need to live it for themselves. Hell, my own kids were that way.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 30, 2003 01:33 PM
Hey Randy, if we all agreed on everything there wouldn't be much discussion on this board.
Comparing your dogs behavior or intelligence to a coyote's isn't realistic. Both are canids but of different species. It would be like comparing humans to chimpanzees. Both are primates but of different species. There is enough variation within species. They all have their Albert Einsteins and Forrest Gumps. Any of your dogs named Forrest?
Observational learning is well researched and documented. Probably the most publicized is the blue tit and robins and the milk-bottles event in Britain in the early 20th century. Milk was delivered to doorsteps all over Britain on a daily basis. Some enterprising little bird learned how the lids were removed. Soon little flocks of blue tit were pilfering England's milk. Bottlers began sealing the lids with foil. Soon the birds learned to open the foil. Soon after ALL the little birds learned to do so simply by watching it done.
Crows, Ravens and coyotes ability to learn simply by observing is well documented. Marc Bekoff has done a substantial amount of research in this area with the coyote. I do not believe any hammers were involved. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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tonlocus
Knows what it's all about
Member # 254
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posted December 30, 2003 04:22 PM
Rich, had I only known you were such an encyclopedia of coyote information I'd of paid more attention to you in the past. Really, I'm impressed.
Posts: 76 | From: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Dec 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 30, 2003 05:03 PM
S'all right, Tony. I've been married a long time. I'm very comfortable with being ignored.
I hang out here because there are at least a dozen members here that can hold their own with anyone on any board. The amount of knowledge available from these guys is amazing.
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted December 30, 2003 07:22 PM
Actually, I thought about calling one of my dogs Forrest. Named him Rich instead.
Just kidding.
Randy
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