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Author
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Topic: Coyote on coyote violence
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 29, 2003 05:35 PM
In the most recent issue of Cabela's Outfitter Journal, Judd Cooney opens his piece by describing an incident where a single coyote approaches a four-pack who are eating from a carcass. The four coyotes do the meet and greet during which they violently attack and ultimately kill what appears, from his description, to be a nomadic individual. I don't doubt that coyotes can be violent toward one another, but what I've read and seen seems to have been more about individuals who failed to get a half-dozen subtle hints about leaving and failed to do so, or who had committed some major infraction as far as pack etiquette was concerned. We don't know what the history may have been between this pack and the poor unlucky bastard that came toe to toe with them as Judd looked on, but has anyone here ever witnessed an all out unprovoked attack between coyotes likes this that resulted in the death of the underdog?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted October 29, 2003 06:22 PM
I've had and known of several coyote caught in traps to be killed by other coyotes. I've had a few younger coyotes killed in the fall soon after season opened, and at least one older coyote killed right after the first of the year.
A few friends have told me of similar experiences. I thought the younger ones were killed by their buddies for acting odd, the older one was probably seen by others as a chance to finally whip up on the old alpha who had given them so much hell all of their lives.
I know when you put a dog on a chain for the first time in his life, you have to watch him and protect him from other free roaming dogs until he learns to accept the chain and quit fighting it. As long as he struggles with it, other dogs see it as an opportunity to whip up on him.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 30, 2003 03:39 PM
Doggone it!
I need to be a little less quick on the trigger. I never see this sort of behavior. They run in and, BANG-FLOP.
Well, plenty of time for that stuff, when I hang it up, right Danny?
Good hunting. LB ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32362 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 30, 2003 05:21 PM
I have dozens of study reports by dozens of different researchers of both exploited and unexploited populations and nowhere, in any of them, has anyone reported a fatality from an agonistic encounter. I have watched large aggregations work a deadpile many times and have never seen anything more than the normal agonistic continuum of body language. Mostly defensive threat and aggressive threat. I did get to see a hip slam once but there was no biting. Sometimes there were as many as 16 counted coyotes in there. D.A.Danner did a two year study of coyotes on the FICO feedlot next to the Santa Rita Experimental Reserve. Radio collared and ear tagged coyotes as well as transients would form aggregations that totaled as many as 27 coyotes. Never did he report even a single roll-in-the-dirt dogfight. Mr. Cooney has been around for a great many years and I would never imply that he was a little reckless with the truth, but what he describes is not normal behavior among coyotes. Wolves kill other wolves, wolves kill coyotes, coyotes kill fox. Coyotes can be ornery and a little testy with each other but they don't kill each other under normal conditions.
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted October 30, 2003 08:10 PM
Interesting story. I read it somewhere else: A couple of years ago, possibly in Outdoor life. Initially my reaction was the similar to Rich's, still believe that it is a general rule. Rich, in any of the studies that you have read did any of them discuss what they felt was the main cause of death in unexploited populations?
Thanks again.
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 31, 2003 10:38 AM
Rich, He did state that this was the first and only time he'd ever seen such a thing in 30+ years hunting coyotes. Strange that this pack would "off" a stranger with no provocation, though. Makes me wonder if the victim wasn't more familiar to these others and this was just the culmination of a long history of encounters. The world will never know.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted November 01, 2003 07:13 AM
Maybe you ought to trash that compendium of ancient manifold data? This appears to be the second such thread pretaining to our little wild canine friends, that has stumped your standard stable of professorial pinheads from acadamia?
....Maybe ole Cronk was right.....I'ahh believe;thar is a little too much "book learnin" a goin' on here:)
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 01, 2003 09:51 AM
So, Vic.
About how many fights to the death have you seen that have gone unnoticed by those pinheads?
For me, there (undoubtedly) is much that I have not personally witnessed. As I said before, I'm hunting coyotes, not studying them. Different thing.
Are you going to pay us a visit, the weekend of the 15&16? I hope you do; I'll even hold your coat.
.....what ever happened to Rich Cronk? Anybody seen him around?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32362 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted November 01, 2003 10:11 AM
Leonard....Ive seen many hundreds of fights to the death, thats coyote against bullet though:)I have spent not one minute observing a gutpile from afar to watch the manifold social intercourse of our amazingly cunning canine friends. like you; Im busy hunting. But if no less than Behle says he knows of it,and some of his huntin and trapping buddies, you can take that to the bank, he wouldn't lie if you had a gun to his head....good enough for me. As for the pointy heads; to cryptic and mysterious for my taste, try to wade thru one of those disertations that gets paraphrased on these boards. Enough to put one into a boredom induced coma. I hope I can get some free time to pay my respects to the California coyote gods, but I have a client who dearly wants to get a nice little cows deer buck. If I can get him to tag out early, I will make it a point to get by to see you, Danny,professor higgins and the rest of the gang. You ought to have a good time, with Bruce and Tim.....how could one not, have a good time!
[ November 01, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 01, 2003 10:28 AM
Yeah, but you have to balance the cornpone with the hard data, once in a while.
Else, how would we know (?) there are seventeen different "subspecies" of coyote, all with different dialects, naturally.
California coyotes seem to wiggle their hips a little faggy, but otherwise, similiar. Same with the prey. I've noticed that your bunnies talk funny.....
Good hunting. LB
PS you didn't answer the question. Think about it, okay?
Okay, you answered, appreciate that. But, on this side of the river, we spell it Coues Hope you score.
[ November 01, 2003, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32362 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted November 01, 2003 11:28 AM
Let me clarify again, the only times I've known a coyote to get killed by others, was when he was in a trap. It's just like a dog the first time he gets tied up. He will fight against it for a while, and while he is fighting it, you have to watch out for him or other dogs will attack him.
I don't know why it happens, and it's pretty rare to find one killed in a trap. You are a lot more likely to find one killed in a trap from being shot. I had an Archery hunter one time demand I pay him back for three expensive arrows he ruined while taking target practice on a trapped coyote. Ruined the pelt completely.
I'm like the two of you when it comes to hunting coyotes, I only pay attention to their behavior long enough to get a clear shot. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 01, 2003 12:12 PM
Tim, if you think I doubted your statement of fact, you are inferring something that I did not imply. Lance and I discussed normal coyote social behavior as it applied to the scenario outlined by Mr. Cooney. Coyotes do not normally socialize with traps on their legs. Do not let Vic guide you someplace I did not mean you to be.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 01, 2003 12:51 PM
Albert, I'm sorry, I just noticed that the post in answer to your question about cause of mortality in unexploited populations never showed.
Dr Crabtree studied the Bison Peak pack in Yellowstone for five years. The alpha female was killed by a lion at age 13. The alpha male was killed by a snowplow. The only other cause of mortality that I read prior to 1995 was due to starvation during deep snow. Since their reintroduction in 95 the wolves have reduced Yellowstones coyote population by 60 percent.
Dr Camenzind studied the coyotes on the National Elk Reserve in Wyoming from 1971 to 1976 and the only deaths he reported were from an outbreak of canine hepatitus and one tagged coyote that was killed by a hunter outside the reserve boundary. Dispersal maintained pack numbers.
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted November 01, 2003 01:53 PM
Rich, Do you think the Yellowstone population is really lowered of just moved. I think they just move ahead of the advancing wolf population. Which means that all of our coyotes are headed for Nebraska, and that is what Quinten has been killing. Those are actually Wyoming coyotes in those pictures, they just moved to Nebraska to get away from the wolves.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 01, 2003 02:01 PM
That's a thought, Cal.
When you think about it, can't feel sorry for the poor decimated coyote population. They always seem to know what to do, where to go and wind up on top.
But, to think that Wascal, Quinton is having all the fun, don't seem right.
Okay, we're jealous, I admit it. Wish we never drove all those coyotes out of California, in the first place. Insult to injury, they grow bigger!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32362 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted November 01, 2003 07:05 PM
Leonard....Yeah, you caught me in a spelling error, but it seems thats the only way I can MAKE someone pronounce Coues correctly....don't know why that is either? Same problem guys have with the pronunciation of Sako, they always seem to use"Say-co" instead of the correct Sock-o. Just my odd quirk...always wonder if they waddle up to the counter at Taco Bell and ask for a Take-o instead of a Tock-o? Ive all ready got my deer out of the way, took a small eater last week, little 2X2, must have weighed all of 50 pounds field dressed, thats the beauty of our little whitetail, not hard to pack out:) My guy obviously wants something better than that, so I'll be beating the brush looking for something of merit. Hope to drop by your camp, share a whiskey, a smoke, and steal a rib or two from Bruces smoker. Have a good hunt, just don't cross over I-10 to murder any more of our coyotes:)
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 01, 2003 07:25 PM
Cal, thanks for clearing that up. I wondered where the coyotes came from. Quinton keeps killing them and they just keep coming. Doesn't seem fair, they would have a better chance staying with the wolves.
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randy moose merta
Knows what it's all about
Member # 145
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posted November 04, 2003 04:30 PM
Last saturday I drove by my buddies home and spotted a couple of guys standing out in the back yard so I stopped by to see what was up. Well as luck would have it there was a guy from Georgia up in Indiana buying live coyotes to train dogs. One of my buddies had 19 live coyotes all together in a pen on a flat bed trailer. They were wadded up like a ball of yarn just looking at us. While preparing to transfer the coyotes to another holding pen my buddy pointed out a big male that was in the center of the big ball of fur. He told me that he caught that big male about ten days ago and had him in the holding pen when he caught another big male. When he put them in the pen with the others for transport the night before the buyer was to arrive the males fought sometime over night. The first big male killed the other one and ate him with the exception of his head and some hide. The next morning my buddy goes out and sees this bloody mess and the dominant males gut was stretched out beyond belief. He said he was looking at the male when the coyote starting puking the other coyote up.
We transfered 40 coyotes that day and sent them south.
Randy
Posts: 13 | From: chandler,indiana | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 04, 2003 04:50 PM
Geez Randy, that's a hell of a story. I'm going to print and save that one.
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted November 04, 2003 09:55 PM
Like... yuck. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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randy moose merta
Knows what it's all about
Member # 145
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posted November 05, 2003 04:29 AM
When you think of coyotes in a cage most would think of a massive ball of fighting. But not so. They just sit there staring as if they are waiting for the fence to rot away. We all have live trapped coyotes around here for long time and there is alot to see and learn. One thing about having alot of coyotes penned up is it sure smells like coyote. Whew talk about strong. Randy
Posts: 13 | From: chandler,indiana | Registered: Feb 2003
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted November 12, 2003 02:50 PM
Rich I have been thinking about this topic. I can recall reading in reasearch paper; (don't recall the author and too lazy to look it up). Where they sited two cases of neighboring packs visiting adjacent den sites and killing the occupants although in one case a lone pup survived. I realize this this isn't exactly the same but it does indicate that coyotes do occasionally kill each other. Any comments?
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 12, 2003 06:15 PM
Hi Albert, how you been. The study you mentioned is "Behavioral Ecology of Coyotes on the National Elk Reserve" by Dr. Franz Camenzind. He did report that in 1973, members of one pack were seen at the den of an adjacent pack. The den was unattended. The following year the pack that had lost it's pups visited the den of a different pack and a female is believed to have eaten one of the pups. One puppy did survive. Both incidents occurred in May when the puppies were only 4 weeks old. Both dens were unattended. Scott Huber, who has many years of personal experience observing coyote behavior, and has many associates with a great deal of experience, found that report difficult to believe because it is not consistant with 'normal' behavior.
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted November 13, 2003 09:07 AM
Rich,
Was the whole report, not normal behavior, or just the incident described?
Is there a way to obtain a copy of the report?
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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