|
Author
|
Topic: My odd philosophy, humanizing coyotes
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted September 11, 2003 10:06 AM
I mentioned one day that I called in a bachelor herd of 17 bulls (they ran off 5 others in the process). It was wierd that they came running toward my van where I had just bugled using my Higgins howler. Those bulls ran thru the meadow right towrds me. My thought is that it never occurred to the knuckle heads that a human made the bugle. Once I was seen, they were leary to come too close because a humean was there, but I am sure they were convinced there was an elk over there somewhere.
Therefore, once a coyote has made you. I don't think it ever occurs to the coyote that a human made the distress noise. I think the coyote really believes there is a rabbit over there, but they won't come any closer because he has just made a human o'er yonder.
If you could read a coyote's mind, do you think he'd understand that a human had just made the call? Or do you think he believes there is a coyote or distressed critter o'er yonder, but refuses to come any closer do to the human nearby?
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 11, 2003 12:43 PM
Interesting point. And, I agree.
I think the coyote believes he heard another coyote or a distressed rabbit, and the human is murdering it.
That's all they need to know. Prove me wrong.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
|
posted September 11, 2003 01:56 PM
Well, the first time I would think the coyote would probably think it was a rabbit doing the screaming. But, if you believe in educated or call shy coyotes, wouldn't you think the second time it happened, the coyote would be thinking that the man was making the rabbit noises?
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 11, 2003 02:48 PM
Oops, sorry, Dennis. I assumed there wouldn't be a second time.
But, seriously. Have we not concluded that a coyote is incapable of deductive reasoning?
coyote thinks, same thing:
"hmm, that human sure likes rabbit":
time 2, through 10.
Maybe not?
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted September 11, 2003 03:05 PM
Coyotes are, IMHO, as close to being able to rationalize a given situation as is any animal beneath us humans. But, having said that, I don't necessarily believe that coyotes become call shy in the sense that they are unwilling to respond to the sound of a dying rabbit. Hesitant...maybe. Unwilling? They'd starve to death. The determining factor in this scenario is probably the presence of the human, either visually or olfactorily.
Keep in mind that in the course of their daily lives, coyotes hear hundreds, if not thousands, of bunnies and other critters pitch a ghost. They may learn from the experience of encountering a human being the first time around then modify the way any subsequent approaches are made, employing more secure methods of evaluating the supposed free meal, i.e., circling to catch the "rabbit's" scent, versus running headlong into the fray. Although I think there are a fair number of coyotes who lack the aptitude to save their own butts in a tight situation, and are thus eliminated through the gene pool either by you, me, a truck on the two lane or an ACME missile, there are those at the other end of the spectrum which you see that just look like they're thinking things over. When you watch their mannerisms and body language as they approach, you can tell which ones are mulling things over, and which ones are just cruising along thinking "Kibbles and bits! Kibbles and bits". Whether we actively acknowledge these individuals or not, each of us can recall an approaching coyote which prompted that little voice in the back of our head to tell us to stay very, very still and not make any unnecessary moves. With some coyotes, you can get away with "stuff". Others are very unforgiving. And those, not to humanize them or be anthropomorphic, are the coyotes that have the capacity to learn from experience and modify their behavior to further benefit their intentions. They're the survivors which challenge us in the late season and which constitute our version of the "Booner". And they're the ones that keep most of us doing this crazy business.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted September 11, 2003 06:18 PM
"coyotes don't think, therefore they ain't" ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Is that what you mean Leonard?
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
|
posted September 11, 2003 07:18 PM
Yotes do not have the ability to think or reason, humans are the only specie capable of being stupid and we do it very well.
A yote cannot think " I heard a rabbit squeal and got shot at" can they associate a Boom with a bullet? NO.
But responding to a sound and not getting to eat it, why would they come back again? To hear a big boom? I think, not. Are they able to hear and say last time I heard that nothing was there to eat, just a big noise. Yes. They also do not get mad, or happy. They just live and eat.
Being far ahead of humans in what is important, all animals are.
Someone will say the ability to create, or Art separates us. I say the ability to draw a picture that is "almost as good as the real thing" is a gift, but is it an advantage in surviving? No. Art strokes the ego of humans that is all, prove me wrong, show me an animal impressed with an oil painting. Above or below animals? Humans, in my opinion, will never reach the level of the "lowest or most base animal". what ever that is in your imagination. Imagination is the only advantage mankind has. As weak and stupid as we are there must be God, or we would never have survived. I defy you to cite a single thing man has done to improve our world, not improve mans place in the world, but to improve the world. We are our own worst enemy.
not trying to be a downer but a realist.
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
|
posted September 11, 2003 10:21 PM
Bofire, I was with you right up to the last paragraph. I think I understand where you were trying to go with that, but I think you are just a few degrees off true North.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted September 11, 2003 10:42 PM
uhhh, hello, excuse me, sorry to interupt here, but are all humans supposed to be impressed with oil-paintings?
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
|
posted September 12, 2003 06:23 AM
I dunno, maybe I am just a little depressed with the world today.
Nasa, I have no problem with a few degrees off, or not expressing myself well, Most of the time I am at least half a bubble off.LOL Brick shy of a load, not a ful deck etc.
I guess ya gotta wonder about a guy that would rather call yotes in the snow and cold than lay on the Beach in Mexico!
don't take me too serious.
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
trappnman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 168
|
posted September 15, 2003 06:08 AM
quote:
[color:red]Have we not concluded that a coyote is incapable of deductive reasoning?[/color]
Have we?
A tower is built along a ridgeway where coyotes run. They are shot at from this tower for a priod of time.
The coyotes, after a period of time, change their routes so they no longer go past the tower.
Now- I don't think the coyotes think " jeepers, I think humans are shooting .222 at us and are decimating our numbers- perhaps we should take the more scenic and much safer river route..."
but I do believe the think this route= danger.
And to me, thats learned reasoning, and learned reasoning is deductive reasoning.
--------------------
Your American Heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
Posts: 40 | From: Mn | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
|
posted September 15, 2003 10:29 AM
Trappnman,
Thinking is having an idea or a thought. Reasoning is drawing conclusions from these ideas or thoughts.
In order to reason, a thing must first be able to think. You and I both agree that coyotes cannot think, so if that is the case, they are incapable of reasoning of any kind.
You used reasoning in your post to explain why the coyote avoided the tower. The coyote used association.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
|
posted September 15, 2003 11:15 AM
Where did the idea come from that coyotes or for that matter any animal, do not have the ability to think. Not trying to be argumentive, but that doesn't make sense to me.
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
|
posted September 15, 2003 04:40 PM
Greenside
In order to answer your question, I consulted the highest authority on the subject. No, it was not JH.
Jude 1:10
Yet these men speak abusively against what they do not understand and what things they do understand by instinct. Like unreasoning animials, these are the very things that destroy them.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 15, 2003 04:52 PM
All well and good, but what does JH think about this subject?
Trappenman, where does the term, "conditioned response" come into play? And does it negate a thought process?
I admit, sometimes they sure look as if they are considering possibilities. I give the coyote high marks for intelligence, so he must be "learning" something; at least. Of course, a slug can learn to avoid the salt.....
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
trappnman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 168
|
posted September 15, 2003 06:22 PM
conditioned response. Very good. Fine, fine line.
What about this- coyote finds the one hole in otherwise miles of fences woven wire. Persistance of course? but why?
Or put a dogs toy in one roon with 2 rntrances- stop access to one- and he''l race around to the other side to gai naccess>
Hmmn... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I don't for a minute think coyotes can reason from point A to B to C. But I really wonder at times about patterns and habits that revolve around.
Wiley must really be busy with his house to keep out of this one. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Your American Heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
Posts: 40 | From: Mn | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
|
posted September 15, 2003 06:53 PM
Well, I'm not sure they can think in terms of yesterday, today or tommorrow, like humans can, but it seems to me that a coyote that's been called in by a human, with call in mouth, and then shot at and missed will probably not show up tommorrow under the same circumstances.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
|
posted September 15, 2003 06:59 PM
I agree Trappinman, it is a hard thing to understand.
I guess this might be it: can ya teacha yote math?
Does that make a yote stupid? Is there Reasoning we do not understand? If we cannot understand, are we stupid, or them?
Yotes aint stupid, neither are Turkeys, but both will come to a call, I think they'll repeat, some have for me.
hmmmmmmmmm, is paranoia living your entire life as a hunter or huntee? Maybe Hamlet should have said. "to eat or be eaten" is it better to die "food" or to die cause of no "food"
Phisophically yern
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted September 15, 2003 07:39 PM
Jude 1:10
Yet these men speak abusively against what they do not understand and what things they do understand by instinct. Like unreasoning animials, these are the very things that destroy them.
R Shaw, perhaps the coyote has been impossible to destroy, as a species, because it is not an unreasoning animal?
Further consider the universal esteem accorded the coyote by admirers and enemies alike because of it's remarkable adaptability.
"The higher the intelligence of any species, the more variations in behavior among its individuals. The degree of their uniformity is in ratio to their stupidity."
IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted September 15, 2003 09:59 PM
"unreasoning animals". That doesn't mean all animals are unreasoning, it only means the "unreasoning ones" you know, like bobcats!!!!!! "hee hee snicker snicker LOL LOL"
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted September 15, 2003 10:10 PM
Here's a question: In this scenario is the critter thinking or reasoning? Both? Either? None?
When you are walking about in the wilderness and a coyote, deer, or whatever, spots you - That critter can either jump up & run or lay perfectly still to avoid being seen. How does he decide which? I think he (reasons) decides whether or not running will increase his chances of being seen versus hiding.
Also, have you ever noticed how a bunny in tall grass will only move while you are moving and once you stop moving, he does too? It is very true. I have experienced that many times.
My vote is for animals thinking! My domestic cat rubs up against my leg when he's hungery. Call it a learned response if you will but what about the first time he tried it to get my attention? He had to think of a way to get my attention. And do you really think it was instinct that taught him???
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
trappnman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 168
|
posted September 16, 2003 06:14 AM
Heres another scenerio:
Last fall, thought we had a collared coyote that was dead or the collar had slipped off, as it was giving off a mortality signal for several days.
Deer hunting was on.
We followed the signal through a small valley- with fairly thick brush on the sides. We had spotty snow. At the end came to a big brush pile- signal right inside. All of a sudden, as we got to with in 50 feet- the signal became active and srated moving. We had jumped the coyote. We then tracked it through the radio- and found all he was doing (this was an alpha male) was circling the side hills around us- playing keep away from us. We never saw him 1 time in about 45 minutes of goofing around with him. This "valley" was perhaps 200 feet across with side hills about 1/2 of that, maybe 1/4 mile long. Open fields above the valley.
Conditioned response? Reasoning? Luck?
--------------------
Your American Heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
Posts: 40 | From: Mn | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
|
posted September 16, 2003 06:18 PM
Trappnman
In my opinion the scenario you described above is really no different than the one with the tower. Except in this case there are several towers in the form of tree stands and ground blinds. All manned by members of the Orange Army as I like to call them. If a coyote ventures into the open fields he gets shot at.
In my area, during deer season, coyotes lay low in places just like you described. They become very nocturnal. It usually takes a couple of weeks after deer season before calling becomes good again.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted September 16, 2003 09:52 PM
Trappnman,
I think you had yerself there a "thinker"!!!!
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
trappnman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 168
|
posted September 17, 2003 04:19 AM
Me Too! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
--------------------
Your American Heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
Posts: 40 | From: Mn | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
