This is topic When camo has value and when it doesn't in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 31, 2003, 06:32 AM:
The topic of camoflage always seems to bring out a diversity of opinions. I think it's another of those topics with opinions that vary from area to area.
If you are filming coyotes, there is no question as to the value of camoflage to keep them in close.
If you are hunting coyotes in heavy brush where a coyote can easily see you before you see them and where your head has to keep turning from side to side to cover the area, there is no question as to the value of camoflage. In most cases you are sitting up in heavy cover rather than prone which also creates more need for camo.
If you are hunting coyotes in open prairie type country the way I do, the value of camoflage is very limited.
What becomes far more important in open country than camoflage is your amount of movement.
The best camo pattern that I have ever seen for a particular situation is total white on snow cover. Under this situation a coyote or coyotes will have a line on the sound and when they don't see anything due to everything being white, they keep coming, and coming, and coming. Its very hard to stop a coyote to handle them properly if they can't see anything and you can't stop them.
I started wearing a dark glove for this very reason and simply wave at them to get them to stop. Barking or "whoofing" at them wouldn't do it if they couldn't also see something.
Under most non snow situations, I usually wear a Predator camo top, no face camo unless I am calling in heavier cover, and blue jeans. If I need to stop a coyote I can turn my head to the side and allow them to see something or I can kick a leg out to the side. If they see some movement they will usually stop. If they don't see anything they will usually keep running which makes handling more difficult.
I also set up in such a way that I have a place that they would naturally stop at to survey the situation. Having open country to call in also gives me more opportunity to use sounds and volumes that also help in setting the stage for handling the coyotes.
As far as I am concerned, many of the camo patterns that are commercially available are just a gimmic to sell more camoflage. So many of the patterns create a dark blob on a light background.
In my opinion, the ultimate camo pattern would be to duplicate a hen pheasant or hen mallard. They are invisible in many cover situations when they're not moving. Black blotches over a light background.
A tiger has black vertical stripes to match it's environment.
If I could pick one camo pattern to use for every situation under the sun it would be Predator's snow camo. Even in dark environments it's the black bars or black blotches and light background that creates the best breakup in most situations.
For a military sniper or filmer, guille (sp?) suits are invaluable, for the coyote caller in open situations that I call in, it would be overkill and would create more discomfort than any value it may offer.
For areas of heavy cover, it may be just the ticket.
I still haven't found a pattern that I like better than Predator.
My point is to consider that there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to camoflage.
I tried to offer not just an opinion on what works for me, but more importantly, why it works for me in the situations that I call in.
~SH~
Posted by LionHo (Member # 233) on August 31, 2003, 08:20 AM:
If I were to plunk down a big chunk of change on a better camo wardrobe, first thing would be to try to find a good breathable waterproof snow pattern set of bibbies and a hooded jacket, something I can strenously hike in and not work up a sweat. Haven't found what I am looking for yet. Can anybody point me in the right direction?
Got away from wearing blue jeans in the field. Maybe mammalian predators can't see color, but I find that the scrub jays and acorn woodpeckers can and do, mobbing and squawking and busting me in the forest when I hike into my stand. The other reason I don't wear them much: Cotton Kills. Majority of people that die of exposure were wearing tight (wet) blue jeans.
For snowless conditions, I wear military BDUs, and find that they're usually adequate to call stuff in real close when topped with a headnet and gloves. Almost always set up in the shade, against a broken pattern backstop.
While I don't fidget much, I've also found some netting as a screen in front of me to help with hiding movement. The netting weighs next to nothing, rubber-band it to my tripod. I go for no-muss no-fuss, and this works well. A good screen with lousy camo is superior to better camo, IMO.
Controlling movement and not presenting a silhouette seem much more important than pattern. Most of the time I can use the terrain as camo. But since I do photography, I want critters to be almost on top of me to fill the frame (have to think like an archer). Rely on terrain to funnel them in as much as or more than relying on what I am wearing. Tendency is to keep calling from the same productive stands, year in year out, ignoring others that might work for longer-range hunting pursuits. But I'll concede that better camo might mean I could set up in more spots.
Call me a stick-in-the-mud but I'm still frankly a bit leery of 100 different whiz-bang camo patterns. Not that they don't each look good, amazingly good, or wouldn't work well in the specific environment they were made to represent. But if I buy into the idea of "perfect match" camo, frustration would be that around here the terrain and cover vary so much from ridgeline to canyon bottom to chaparrel that matching with specific camo would mean 3 wardrobe changes in a half an hour's hike.
I too have called yote's fox and particularly bobcats amazingly close with very little camo. So I'm sort of a minimalist. Have recently seen some pin-on leafs recently that seem more appealling to me than sweating in a ghillie suit. Most versatile camo would allow a change in set-up from stand to stand, is why I'm leaning toward finding a set of lightweight collapsable screens, rather than perfect match clothing for a dozen scenarios.
Until somebody comes up with a chameleon suit...that I'd buy in a heartbeat. For those spring days when half your stands are next to a snowy patch, and half of your stands are in new growth. One stand is backed up to pines, another to oaks, and a third to a rocky outcrop (Heck, they can make cheap sunglasses that change color, why not camo?)
LionHo
"So there I was, armed with nothing more deadly than a camera, taking only pictures and leaving only footprints"
[ August 31, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: LionHo ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 31, 2003, 09:07 AM:
Scott,
I can honestly say that I agree with pretty much all you said. Especially the part about movement being paramount for ensuring concealment. I don't think there is a pattern made to hide some of the guys I've seen fail at calling coyotes. I preach to them that camouflage is a way of life, not a wardrobe. Scanning with your eyes rather than turning your entire head. Keeping your hands in front of your face from the time you start to the time you move to shoot or leave. Many guys don't like shooting sticks, but I use them almost religiously now. Not so much as a bench from which to shoot, but to keep my gun out of the mud and because they hold the rifle half-way up in the first place. I find it very easy to ease the butt end of the rifle into position while just pivoting the forearm/ barrel end when using my sticks. Binos are another area where a lot of guys screw the pooch. Aside from obvious safety issues, consider the amount of movement it takes to shoulder a rifle and use your scope to glass a prospective target versus slipping one hand down your chest and raising a small pair of binoculars.
When to get the gun into position. Where do you start? I don't know about most of you, but as soon as I have a visual on the coyote, I take the first opportunity to shoulder my weapon, then let the front end rest in the sticks. I do my best and set myself up to increase the chances that my target will approach from straight out front. Looking down the bore of a shotgun or rifle offers a very small profile. I've spent thirty minutes-plus working a coyote in with my gun up, watching him bare-eyed over a scope rather than through it. If nothing else, that time frame allows your heart to settle to a mild roar and helps you regain control of your breathing to effect a better shot. Admittedly, this type of set up is far more feasible for me in farm country where I have small tracts of cover to which I call, compared to you guys in wide open country where you can set up and expect approaches from 360-degrees. The downside of these short-range situations is that you have to sneak in very quietly and be well concealed because they're right in your mustache from the get-go - not 600 yards or a half-mile away.
I've got a buddy that uses Predator (looks better without the "o") for bow hunting and it's good stuff. Personally, I like the Natural Gear once my grasses and rangeland have gone dormant for the winter. I don't hesitate to dig into the tub in my toolbox where I keep every flavor camo I own, then mix and match tops and bottoms to coincide with the area where I'll be hunting. Classic example here where snows are often no more than a skiff is white sweat bottoms over my coveralls with my natgear or woodland camo tops. Sit on the snow with my back against a round bale or hedge tree. By planning ahead and layering your clothes the best you can, you can almost achieve that chameleon ability with little effort.
I like that dark glove idea. Good one.
Ghillies are just another tool for me and I use it when it's warranted. In your wide open country, I agree that they'd lend very little to a prone shooter making shots over hundred of yards. But, a lot of my spots are small, tightly confined and with very brief strips of open shooting area between me and heavy cover. One example that comes to mind offers me about forty yards of clear ground betwen a small cedar tree and a heavily overgrown forty acre tract of locust and hedge trees, sumac and sandplum, and bluestem grass. A major coyote pocket for me -always has been, took five out of it last season alone - but when they pop out, they're right on top of me and moving. With the ghillie, I slip up the backside of a hill, over a sheepwire fence right where this cedar sits, back into the bush and I'm in the driver's seat. At thirty yards and less, I've yet to be busted by a coyote in my ghillie and this is a prime example of one situation where I wouldn't NOT use it.
So, as you say, "I think it's another of those topics with opinions that vary from area to area", and it's important that we share our personal experiences so we can help one another understand the challenges we each face that are unique to our immediate area. I know that "listening" to you other guys has really opened my eyes to being versatile and thinking outside the box when it comes to calling coyotes. The tricks of the trade you and others have shared in the past always make me a little better at this game.
Posted by jerryboy (Member # 231) on August 31, 2003, 10:39 AM:
Hey Guys, Whats a good winter/semi-snow camo for -10 below 0? I see alot of good snow camo but they don't look so warm. In deer season here, everyobe swears by the carhardts,but they are a joke IMHO,they are insulated,but with a 15 degree drop when the wind blows.Cuts right to the bone in Late winter here in In.
And how about boots? I have bought $160 Boots that were supposed to be the best arround.What a joke,after an hour,of wading through snow,crusted snow,they all have failed me.I use wool next top my skin and all.Haven't found a warm boot yet.Any help or suggestions are apprecialted. Jerryboy
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 31, 2003, 04:22 PM:
Jerry boy,
Let me give you a tip that you can sink your teeth into. I don't really think it matters what snow camo pattern you buy. I like Predator but what's important is that you buy a light yet big pair of coveralls that you can slip over whatever else you want to wear.
I will never buy another pair of insulated camo coveralls as I would much rather adjust my clothing underneath it. I like wool sweaters in the winter but haven't found the right wool pants yet.
Good post Lance!
I have a friend who made a pair of beaver chaps with the fur out and when he went to saddle his horse, the horse wouldn't have none of it. Thought he was a tree munching sasquatch.
~SH~
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 31, 2003, 04:34 PM:
Jerry,
When I'm not calling in the winter, I hoof mail on foot for Uncle Sam. My Postmaster thinks I'm nuts because I just love the cold weather - colder, the better. I've learned, from necessity, to layer my clothes the right way. High end polypropylene longhandles against the skin - sometimes two sets. Thinsulate over that. Any other layers I want and on the top, goretex or any type of rain gear or its equavalent that will keep the wind from penetrating. Thinsulate balaclava in the real cold and a thick pile bandana or neck gator to keep me from losing body heat through the neck hole of my tops. I always wear a thinsulate or better lid atop my balding head and those thinsulate gloves that look like they're knitted and are like mittens, but the part that covers the fingertips opens and folds back to expose all my fingers. If it's really cold, and we have windy cold days with wind chills in the -50 range at times, I keep a couple of chemical warmers in my gear bag and place them on the back of my neck beneath the bandana.
I'm a tightass when it comes to boots. I've tried a lot of boots and just don't care for the high-dollar ones that I've seen. Instead, I've kept a pair of medium priced leather with thinsulate liners, at least a size too big for me, and I wear good wool socks in them. When working the mail, I just wear waterproof leather footwear and galoshes. Keeping those feet dry, either from snow, water or perspiration is the key to keeping those tootsies warm. And if your feet are warm, it's a lot easier for you to stay warm, too.
Maybe it's because I'm either too dedicated or too stupid to know when to call it a day, but I've seen fairly hardened guys throw in the towel because of the cold when I was just getting started. And as of today, I've still got all my fingers, toes and various other dangling parts. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by jerryboy (Member # 231) on August 31, 2003, 04:47 PM:
HAHA, Good info men. I was told last tear to put the Wool against your skin. I read it a month later in a 50s book of wilderness survival. I put the wool socks on first, then 2 pairs of nice knit hunting socks and it made a world of difference. I would love to find a one piece jumpsuit in snow camo. Where can I find Predator wear? Thanks, jerryboy
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 31, 2003, 04:54 PM:
http://www.predatorcamo.com/
I can see the benefit of the wool being against the skin. No matter how technologically advanced any brand of thermal material might claim to be, the secret behind their effectiveness has everything to do with the ability to trap air between the outer layers and the skin. Be it a polar bear or a whitetail deer, these animals have hollow hair. Coyotes and foxes have guard hairs to keep the finer underfur dry and that underfur traps a static layer of air over the animal's body surface. The body heat increases the temperature of that air, as it does the air inside a deer's winter hair. Thus, the secret to staying warm, be it with wool or any other material, is to effectively trap layers of air between the layers of clothing. The benefit of wool as you mention is that it'as good at wicking sweat and heat-robbing moisture away from the skin.
Posted by John/Alaska (Member # 25) on August 31, 2003, 06:35 PM:
Wiley -
Good question. I agree most types of camo make the hunter appear as a blob. The why of it is as far as I know is that the patterns on most camo are way way too small to break up ones background much from a distance. I learned this when reviewing a military study on camo patterns. Was real interesting viewing their various examples. totally rearranged my thinking on camo and the why of it.
That said I still usually wear camo especially when hunting in the spruce forests around here. I wear camo as everyday wear anyway because most of my coats and sweatshirts are camo patterned. No one cares as we do dress a bit weird here anyway. The tourists stare at times but who cares? I tell them I can disappear at any time this way because I'm invisible! LOL
Now when hunting in snow which is a major part of when I hunt predators I do agree that snow camo is the ticket. I usually use a light white cover over my other clothes. I use anything from cheap oversized painters coveralls, snow poncho to some neat whit camo coats that I've aquired over the years.
Now Jerry has raised questions about cold gear. Well let me put my 2 cents in. Most of my fur hunting is done between 0 & 35 below (the -35 is usually my cut off point). For boots I love my bunnys which I wear with a pair of dacron socks covered by a nice wool sock. Keeps me warm for a good long time. Only draw back is the weight of the boots. Hunting from a truck not a problem. Off my sno go not a problem except if I break down several miles in it can be tough walking out. On snow shoes they can be heavy!! I'm trying some 125 below rated boots this year. They are about a third the weight of my bunnys so we'll see. For the price they had better work! LOL
For pants I usually wear my fleece lined jeans. I only put on thermo underwear (pants) when it is 30 below or colder. The jeans are fine in the -20 to -25 range where I might sit in a calling stand for 45 minutes. Heck my face usually freezes first! Oh and sometimes I cover the jeans with my white painter pants. Now when riding my sno go which is kinda like being in the wind I will wear my rain pants over my jeans as they are wind proof. And they are camo (woodlands or something) for moose hunting but do work well in that capacity and are not too stiff. Still experimenting on this though!
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on August 31, 2003, 10:53 PM:
I once wore a wool sweater against my skin with a pair of overalls on top. At the end of the day I had darn near worn my nipples off!!!!! I don't think I've ever felt such an intese pain before. OUCH!!!
My 2 cents...no wool on skin!!!! Ouch, it hurts just remembering!!! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
P.S. ...except socks, I always wear (only) one pair of wool socks!!!
[ August 31, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 01, 2003, 09:29 AM:
The subject of effective camo is many faceted. I was reading this and reflecting on my motives and requirements. The comment about realistic photographic patterns bluring into a solid form at distance made me think of something.
Generally speaking, I don't find that coyotes in my areas are searching at those distances. Other places, I suppose it saves energy if they could spot and identify the source of a sound from hundreds of yards distance. But, that blob doesn't seem to be a major threat, and the effectiveness of the camo (for me) comes after (he) has closed the range, and is beginning to search for his quarry.
Therefore, wouldn't it be nice to see a pattern where it covers the long range requirements, and at the same time, has a secondary pattern, within the pattern, that causes you to blend in; as the realistic patterns are supposed to do for us.
I don't know? There may exist such a pattern? That new stuff the Marine Corps is using seems a step in the right direction?
Hunting on snow, I don't wear white, never have. I find that by the next day, solar has made a dent in the snow that covers brush, and I regard myself, (in some sort of camo pattern) as just another bush? Coyotes don't seem to spot me, unless I'm vocal when they are looking directly at me.....
something I don't like to have, happen?
Movement. The subject of another thread, all by itself. Just as some feel that camo is overrated, others think that movement is overrated. All I can say about that is; I turn my head, when it suits me. Staring straight ahead, you will miss animals, standing there, needing reinforcement; or a bullet. Whatever works, right?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on September 01, 2003, 04:28 PM:
I have used expensive camo and cheap military camo.I do not see any difference.Keep your movement to a miminum and you will take fur home.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 01, 2003, 08:39 PM:
Wiley E said: "If you are hunting coyotes in heavy brush where a coyote can easily see you before you see them and where your head has to keep turning from side to side to cover the area, there is no question as to the value of camoflage. In most cases you are sitting up in heavy cover rather than prone which also creates more need for camo.
If you are hunting coyotes in open prairie type country the way I do, the value of camoflage is very limited."
--------------
I know that Wiley has likely called more coyotes than I ever have, and I know that he is very good at what he does. I have seen him in action, so I really do have first hand knowlege that the man does in fact know a thing or three about coyotes. My problem is that I am having a bit of trouble understanding how a coyote could see me easier when I am backed up into a small cedar or bush than he could if I were laying out there on a barren hillside. For one thing, this arthritis in my neck will not allow me to call in prone position. I would think that camo would be more important out there on a barren hillside than it is when backed up against a tree or bush. Hmmm, maybe I will figure out that mystery someday.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on September 07, 2003, 11:18 AM:
There is a camo company in Buffalo Wyo. that makes a pattern called Everywear West. Best stuff I've used. Predator runs a close second.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 07, 2003, 03:18 PM:
Cal,
Found it at http://twomorrowssupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TMS&Product_Code=EW-Lined+Jacket&Category_Code=EWC
You're right. That's some good lookin' stuff. Might just have to pry the ol' checkbook open.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on September 07, 2003, 07:05 PM:
In the midwest, Predator has been working real well for me. I do alot of setups in some wide open area's. Corn and soybean stubble, open grazed down pastures and cut hay ground. It seems to blend in good under most of the surroundings. I seldom go prone unless I'm really worried about my silhouette on the skyline.
When my calling partner tells me that he couldn't see me at 150 yds, untill I got up to leave the stand, I know it works. I have alot of confidence in it.
Dennis
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