The New Huntmastersbbs!: What's the more "authentic" sound?

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2003, 03:53 PM:

Talked to Rich Higgins yesterday, and guess what?

We disagreed!

Basically, he claims that he can tell that sound is coming from an electronic speaker; and maybe he can? Presumably, even the WT? So, that's why he uses hand calls, it's more realistic.

But, wait a minute. Hand calls, using plastic, metal or a latex reed is "more realistic" to a coyote's ears?

Are all predator calls at least a little artificial? Unless you are strangling a rabbit with your bare hands, any method you use, tape, digital, or a variety of hand calls; it's not genuine sound, and yet, it attracts coyotes.

Are coyotes (that) discriminating? They know a sound is not a natural sound, but reproduced in some way?

So, explain all those dead coyotes.

What do you say?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 27, 2003, 04:15 PM:

Yep, we disagreed and we're doing so again. You've presented what I said out of context. This one, as you've posted it, is going to generate a lot of flack and I ain't taking the heat for it. What I told you is that I have 3 E-callers and don't use any of them for a variety of reasons. 1. I like to play the music, be a musician and not be a disk-jockey. 2. I don't like packing the weight and the hassle of the set up. 3. I can tell when the sound is playing through a speaker, including the 2 WTs I've called over, and I'll bet money a coyote can too. As I said to you, this is not an issue to YOYs in Sept. or virgin eared coyotes that just slipped over the border in southern Az. But I'll wager money it will make a difference to a coyote that has prior experience with crackly speaker sounds. The fourth reason is that no E-caller has the versatility needed to drag call shy coyotes out of the brush one ear at a time like hand calls and howlers. Plain and simple.

Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 27, 2003, 05:29 PM:

Oh Boy. The SHTF. Which is more authentic? I think you meant realistic. Either way Memorex gets my vote. If you're asking if a coyote can tell the difference, the answer is... I can't even believe you asked that question. Not only no, but hell no a coyote can't tell. If you're asking if an e-caller will call more coyotes. The answer is... Doesn't it depend on who is using the callers (both E and none-E)?

My personal opinion for what it's worth and maybe nobody cares, but the electronics are great for beginners who want to kill a coyote. They're great for an expert who wants to kill a coyote. They're terrific for camera work and somebody who wants to sit back and film. Are they as good as hand calls? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Realistic sound doesn't even play into the equation. Does a flourescent Rapalla look like a shiner? An e-caller can't work and coax a coyote like a hand call can. I don't care if it can play 200 sounds at once and serve hot coffee out the side.

With that being said... It does not matter. The game is to call in a coyote to you. The thrill is diminished when you ambush a dog going to a record player. The best stories are the ones where the desert poochie is running at your nose to bite it. Why... I remember one time a couple years ago when this big ol male coyote when running at my 8-track player... I mean it was such a thrill... I mean you should'a seen it! That player was crappin' all over itself and danged if a battery didn't pop a seal. How boorish is that?

Are we killin' or callin'?

Edited because I misspelt a word and forgot to say something else.

[ June 27, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2003, 05:39 PM:

Well, I wouldn't want you to take any flack, I didn't take your comments "out of context", intentionally.

Okay, you stated your position.

Question: is a coyote just as conditioned to a Circe Jackrabbit, played badly; as to 101C played on a crackly speaker? Perhaps they shy away from both? Perhaps neither? YOY, and virgin border animals don't come to your sounds? Previously called animals can only be fooled the next time by hand calls?

I think it all has a place, electronic and hand calls. If your machine doesn't have the versatility you require, supplement it with your appropriate hand call(s).

Okay now, no flack directed at Rich!

Good hunting. LB

edited for a misspelled word. Please excuse.

[ June 27, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on June 27, 2003, 06:14 PM:

RH: "3. I can tell when the sound is playing through a speaker, including the 2 WTs I've called over, and I'll bet money a coyote can too."

"?"

~end of flak~

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 27, 2003, 06:33 PM:

All right, both of you guys are just plain evil.

Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 27, 2003, 07:35 PM:

Coyote #1:
Hey! I hear a rabbit in distress!

Coyote #2:
Whoa there you ol flea bag. That sounds like a WT Caller. Yep. That’s what it is alright.

Coyote #1:
I hear tell they offer true digital audio quality playback devices specially designed for outdoor use. They also boast the world's largest library of studio-grade recordings of North American mammals, owls, hawks, falcons, eagles and birds and such. They even claim that All vocalizations are digitally recorded and digitally processed (DDD). Why…With their tools, they say you will get closer to the animals than ever before. Whether you're a hunter, a photographer, a birder, a wildlife biologist or a naturalist, their product will significantly increase your chances of viewing success. We need one of them.

Coyote #2:
Yep! They are a group of digital engineers who actively participate in wildlife calling who were frustrated with the ineffectual and obsolete technology used in today's typical wildlife caller, so they decided to bring wildlife calling into the 21st century by integrating solid state audio equipment and digitally recording the largest library of CD-quality North American mammal and bird sounds in the world. With their knowledge of electronics and animal vocalizations we don’t stand a chance.

Coyote #1:
I heard that some of their customers include Disney, Motorola, Soundelux, Warner Brothers, USDA Federal Trappers, US Forest Service, US Geological Survey, Canadian Wildlife Service, Australia Zoological Agency, Australia Department of Parks and Wildlife, Zoo's in the US and abroad, UK DNR, landfills in the US and Canada along with many hunters, photographers, biologists, and nature watchers worldwide.

Coyote #2:
The rated sound quality has a frequency response of 20HZ to 20Khz at 16 bit resolution.

Coyote #1:
If we could figure out how to dial a telephone we could call (603)898-4194 and speak directly to the owner and he’s play us some pretty sample sounds.

Coyote #2:
Sure am lucky you have a trained ear.

Coyote #1:
It’s those damned hand calls that keep me fooled. Hey! Let’s go cruise US-80 for some road pizza.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 27, 2003, 08:45 PM:

I can't see how a hand call could ever sound more like a distressed rabbit, than an actual recording of a distressed rabbit.

They work, and they work well. But the only way you are going to tell the difference, is if you've heard a distressed rabbit. And the one that sounds just like it, is obviously the recording.

They both have their place, but for those us less socially inclined. ( I call by myself a lot ) You will kill a lot more coyotes with an Electronic, than you will with a hand call.

Coyotes come in better when the sound is continuous. If you keep starting and stopping the calling, ( Or changing sounds ) the coyote is going to get suspicious, and circle. Many times leaving before you even see him.

It all boils down to what you want out of a hunt. If you want a social event, take your buddies and a hand call. If you want to take home a lot of dead coyotes, take the electronic.

Tim

Posted by jerry (Member # 195) on June 27, 2003, 08:51 PM:

I will admit the best call i own is the squeaky door hinge on my jeep . i guess it could be an e. caller , the jeep does have a battery [Big Grin]

Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on June 27, 2003, 10:20 PM:

I have to say I call a lot more animals with hand calls.I call by myself most times and I can move a lot faster and get more stands in with em.But Im very comfortable with them.I like using ecalls also but mainly when Im trying to create a specific scenerio as in pissing off coyotes with greyfox and rabbit sounds in the summer or whatever.

I use my ecaller mostly for calling grey fox actually.

I really dont think the actual sound makes a huge difference cause every rabbit sounds different anyway.I personaly think a good caller can impart a lot more realism with handcalls as far as cadence, squealing, high/low pitches,etc than can be acomplished with ecalls because it can be done instantaneous and at will during the sequence.Sometimes just a small pitch change or a little squeal in the sequence is all it takes to bring a dog thats hung up.I also like to use a realistic cadence, I dont call continuously.I think a lot of people try to do this with handcalls and get winded so badly they shy away from them and never learn to use them very well so they think an ecall is the only way to go for them.

Im typing in my sleep so Im probably not making sense, goodnight. [Roll Eyes]

[ June 27, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 27, 2003, 10:29 PM:

Tim, I call exclusively with hand calls and I hunt alone most of the time. Percentage wise how much better do you think I would do if is switched over to an e-caller and why?

Thanks.

Q,

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2003, 10:33 PM:

I didn't try to engage the question of who's got the better method. Obviously, it's personal choice, and that's good enough for me.

What struck me was the theory that a recorded sound of an actual rabbit in distress could be detected because of the electronis "sound" of the speaker. And, if I didn't get it right again, please correct me, Rich.

So, I'm thinking that if they can notice the metalic sound that you get from a speaker, then why couldn't a coyote detect fake distress cries made by a plastic hand call with a vibrating metal reed? It's not a natural sound. It's an imitation, a mimic.

And, of course, how we use a hand call has very little to do with accurate rabbit sounds. I've heard dying rabbits, and my hand calling doesn't sound like the real thing; at least to me?

Please, do not project heat. I'd feel somewhat responsible, should a certain party develop a case of the vapors. [Smile]

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 27, 2003, 11:34 PM:

Leonard........Your a flagrant provocatuer.... one of your better qualities I might add:)

~Az-Hunter~

--------------------------

"most predator hunting board members act the same"

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 27, 2003, 11:54 PM:

Higgins....I'd be careful If I were you. Every now and again you have some kind of retarded Freudian slip of the tongue, and make mention of lop eared, virgin eared coyotes, slipping thru the border fence to be called by us nimrod hunters....or thats how it sounds. It always gives me pause, because of the implication our coyotes are easier than your coyotes....whats up with that?I watched the video remember....and I can tell you I saw way to many chimney tops, backyard fences, garbage cans, and people watching from their lofts while you huffed and howled at coyotes that are obviously one step away from domestication. Im not sure if it's a fair evaluation of call types when including those backyard, garbage eating coyotes in the equation:) Maybe the tinny sound of garbage can lids banging together would be more productive than either mouth or electronic calls? You could still be the closet musician you fancy yourself, only play the symbols instead of the sax:). Of course....this is all in fun, and we don't wish to get Leonard in any hot water for stirring the pot:)

~Az-Hunter~

------------------------------

Most urban coyotes act differently than our wild southern arizona coyotes"

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on June 27, 2003, 11:57 PM:

I could say some things, but I don't want to get into this. Except I'll say this much hehehe. Guys that take big numbers of animals don't use hand calls, take it from there guys lol. [Wink]

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on June 28, 2003, 03:48 AM:

Good post Jay!

If you compare someone who is very good with a handcall to someone with an electronic call, the advantage of the electronics is generally three fold:

1. Getting the focus off of you and onto the caller which is typically placed away from you.

2. Having at your fingertips a diversity of realistic sounds for different situations. Granted, when compared to someone who is very good with handcalls, this advantage is certainly minimized.

3. Those "handcallers" who think continous calling is a ticket to their success can limit their hand movement, spend more time looking, and not have to wear themselves out calling continually.

In Rich H's defense here, I can also say that I doubt that I will call many more coyotes with the WT over what I have always done with hand calls and other vocalizations.

On the other hand, I also believe there will certainly be advantages to getting the sound away from you and taking the focus off of me that will offset the inconvenience of packing the equipment and charging batteries.

Moving the focus also becomes more important in heavier brush.

I don't know whether a coyote knows the difference between someone that is good with a hand call and/or vocalizations as compared to the sounds of an electronic call but I seriously doubt it makes a difference to most of them.

Few coyotes will refuse the right sounds with either system. Those that do refuse probably have reasons unrelated to the sound.

Had quite a discussion with a respected calling friend recently on the topic of how many sounds were really needed to kill 95% of the coyotes. We both felt that virtually every coyote that is callable could be located, called, handled, AND SHOT with probably 6 - 7 different sounds.

Dan Hehehe: "Guys that take big numbers of animals don't use hand calls, take it from there guys.."

Kicking the antpile again huh? LOL!

~SH~

[ June 28, 2003, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on June 28, 2003, 05:51 AM:

Wiley

What's your opinion on the WT howls for locating purposes? Sound OK or would you prefer one of the howlers or voice?

Dennis

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2003, 10:00 AM:

You know, Dennis. Some of these questions are almost classic. Down wind/up wind, hand call vs electronic, etc. The one that flummoxes a few of us is "locating" by howling.

Scott does that, but I don't, generally. The word itself is a bit confusing.

Consider. You are standing in the middle of a twenty mile stretch, without a clue. You howl and wait for a response. If you don't get one, you move, and repeat. If you get a response, in the form of a howl, you go there and set up.

In Scott's method, he has a clue, and a direction. The howl is initially an attempt to get the coyote to come to him, (ie: hunting) as much as an attempt at "locating" the animal.

Regarding the method of calling, howler, WT or voice; you know what he's going to say.

When I howl, it is never an attempt to "locate" coyotes. I'm hunting coyotes and I expect them to come running into my setup. If he is way over yonder, I pretty much ignore him. I go where the road goes, I will not traipse hither and yon, miles from my vehicle.

So, some of these descriptive words can miss the mark, and it's natural that some clarification is in order.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2003, 10:17 AM:

Scott, to answer for Danny. I believe what he meant was from a left coast perspective, and the fact that we wind up with a significantly higher body count than other parts of the country. But, this is due to the fact that we are night hunters, as much as that we tend to favor electronics, with "spot" application of hand calls. What that means is that I might use a hand call for a total of five minutes on a twenty minute stand. He hunts the same way, in that regard.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 28, 2003, 12:36 PM:

Q,

With an E-caller, you can spend 100% of your concentration on a stand looking for an incoming coyote.

When the coyote comes in, he is not going to be looking at you, his concentration is going to be on a bush 25 yards from you.

Ever have a coyote come running around the back of the bush you were leaning against and scare the crap out of both of you?

With an E-caller, he would have run right past you, and not seen you when you jumped out of your seat.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 28, 2003, 01:11 PM:

Az-Hunter,

Rich just doesn't understand how much extra trouble we have to go though to call with a Spanish Accent so those coyotes will understand us.

While I was out this morning, I had the chance to latch onto a Jackrabbit and listen to a few of his screams. ( Purely for purposes of scientific research only ) Jay Nistetter happens to make the most beautiful music I've ever heard on a call. But that Old Jack didn't sound anything like Jay, or myself, or anyone else I've ever heard.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 28, 2003, 01:49 PM:

Yep, I got sideways in hurry on this one. Carlson, quite honestly I didn't even think about you. I had in mind one of Steve Craigs posts about N.W. dispersal flow and how he had called a huge amount of virgin-eared Mehican co-yo-tes. in your area. But I don't mind if Freud doesn't mind. BTW, if your in the mood for a bit of irony, look up nimrod in your dictionary. Carlson: "I watched the video, remember?" Actually I didn't know that you had. You e-mailed me requesting a copy which I immediately sent to you. You did not acknowledge receipt or say thank you, which probably was a minor oversight, so you're welcome. Your tone is faintly disparaging, so if you are in any way dissatisfied with the raw, unedited footage that I sent you I will gladly refund your money. Oh, wait. It was free. Never mind. Carlson since I never set up any where that I don't expect a coyote to respond to, I have never called in my closet. heh heh. If you took umbrage with my post and felt it was directed at you, please be assured it was not. I am sure you are very skilled and talented in the manner in which you play your E-caller. If ever you decide to enter the state calling championship, I am confident you can climb onto the platform and push that button with the best of them. And having seen your demonstration of handcalls on your video, I understand why you use an electronic caller. All in fun. Hope no one gets the vapors.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 28, 2003, 01:56 PM:

Scott: "We both felt that virtually every coyote that is callable could be located, called, handled, and shot with probably 6-7 different sounds." On a thread sometime ago you warned us that you would occasionally drop a gem if you were not careful.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2003, 02:16 PM:

And, there you go. I have seen children honk on a call and attract coyotes and bobcats. Basically, it doesn't matter what you use, it all works. We are having fun, splitting hairs, and revealing personal preferences. But, that's what we want to hear, because there IS no answer. Opinion is the currency we go by, around here.

Rich, sorry about AZ poking at you. I'll scold him via e-mail!

Good hunting. LB

[Big Grin]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 28, 2003, 02:38 PM:

Robb Krause and I were out this morning calling coyotes to the camera with a large yellow rubber ducky. Worked better than a scratchy, crackly speaker. heh heh heh

Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on June 28, 2003, 03:38 PM:

When I make a sound, And they come. That is a good sound.

When I make a sound, And they do not come. That is a bad sound.

This concludes my entire knowledge of this subject.

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 28, 2003, 05:57 PM:

I have used Hand calls,digital callers,and the 8 lbs monster E-callers all quite a bit while calling coyotes.They have all worked and have all called coyotes.Anymore I use hand calls 99% of the time.Why? you ask.SIMPLICITY.Plain and simple.I usually carry two distress calls Sceery's AP-6 and The AP-7.For calling coyotes I just don't see the need to locate the speaker away from my position.If I felt it was advantageous to rely on a E-caller I would.Those two hand calls along with the trusty Higgins howler is all I need to get a boat load of coyotes. [Big Grin]

GOOD HUNTING CO

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 28, 2003, 06:00 PM:

VH,
Brevity is the, uh, ah hell, I can't remember the quote, but you know what I mean. And Leonard, I have to find a way to use the word "provocateur" in a piece for T&PC. Cool word. Isn't that your middle name???

As far as quality of sounds b/n the two, I'd have to presume that the electronic stuff is better since it's the real deal. That's assuming that the coyote can tell the difference, and that he gives a damn one way or the other. I think we should be careful about subscribing to the line of reasoning that our perception of the sounds we create are the same as the coyote's. He may be listening for something entirely different. Who knows.

But, I will tell you my thoughts on e-callers. I have one (not a thought. An e-caller. Well, I have a thought, too. I think.) . It's in my office where I use it to hold down papers on the shelf next to my desk when the fan is on. It's pretty good for that. It'd also probably make a dandy anchor if I ever gave up calling for fishing. The battery went to crap on it four years ago and I haven't brought myself to buy another one, because I don't consider using it to be calling coyotes.

Anyone can hit the go button. Big deal. I've called coyotes with it and I considered the experience to be anti-climactic at best. What did I accomplish with that coyote? Not a thing. I didn't dupe him. The tape did. The speaker did.

I've gone from hunting deer with rifles to taking a half-dozen with a bow and arrow. Since I can't find an atl-atl to use, I'll probably go to a 9-iron because the challenge of shooting deer with a bow is here and gone. Same thing with calling coyotes. It isn't about shooting them that keeps me in the game. It's in the calling. Being able to call him in, fool him completely - that's where I get the rush that keeps me coming back for more. Making my own calls now has just taken things that next logical step for me. E-callers may be okay for some guys, but I find no sense of self-satisfaction in using them. To each his/ her own.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2003, 06:50 PM:

quote:
And Leonard, the word "provocateur" Isn't that your middle name???

Only my best friends call me that. Most of the other frequently mentioned middle names are unprintable. LB

Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on June 28, 2003, 07:13 PM:

I have a Johnny Stewart in the hall closet collecting dust, I hate lugging it around so I stay with the hand calls.

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on June 28, 2003, 09:13 PM:

Greenside,

The WT coyote group howls are very authentic sounding. Will they locate coyotes any better than a howler and/or voice howl?

I can't say at this time.

If I was to speculate, I would say that they PROBABLY would create better results for locating coyotes.

Why?

Because there is multiple coyotes howling at once. A single person howling cannot duplicate that sound.

I really don't know if it's an advantage or not.

Lance is correct on the difference between what sounds good to us and what sounds good to the coyotes. I have heard some of the most pathetic sounding howls locate and call coyotes. I would like to think that a better howl would do a better job but I can't say that for sure.

Rich Higgins has a very good sounding howl to me. Will it create better results than a poor sounding howl? I'd like to think so but I can't say for sure due to the results I have seen from pathetic sounding howls.

Only the yippers know and they're not telling!

~SH~

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 28, 2003, 10:13 PM:

The e-callers’ biggest advantages are that you can keep the machine away from you thus diverting the coyote’s attention away from your movement and in the case of the WT you have a wide variety of sounds available and some that can’t be accurately reproduced by a hand call. I can tell the deference between a hand call and the WT call when I am right next to it but I am sure I couldn’t 400 to 600 yards away where the coyotes would be. The distance the wind the rustling leaves, grass excreta all have an impact on the general acoustic qualities of sounds no matter what they come from.

Supposedly the better quality the sounds you have the more coyotes you will call? I can’t prove or disprove this but it sounds reasonable. Coyotes can hear sound frequencies that we can’t and that we can’t reproduce on a hand call. Statistically I don’t know if we will ever be able to determine if or how much of an advantage this is in and of itself.

The WT also has an advantage of offering vocalizations as well as distress cries that cannot be authentically reproduced by a hand call. You can get in the ballpark with some but others you can’t.

In open country I will be damned if I am going to expose myself to set up a call. Most areas I hunt I can see the coyote at least 300 yards out and sometimes more than a half of a mile. I call intermittently. I call and I look, call and look. I can get away with this because I shoot prone and can see the coyotes coming from a long ways off. If I were in a situation where coyotes would be constantly popping up 50 yards or less away I would need a change up.

You just have to learn how to hunt with a hand call differently than with an e-caller. If you hunt with and e-caller like you do with a hand call then you have little advantage other than volume, hands free operation and in some situations keeping your wind. In any event it is important to know where the coyotes are. I can’t understand why this is such an issue with a lot of people. I know in brush country where it is as flat as a pancake it may be tuff to determine if you don’t have a vocal on them but still there are many things you can do to control the situation.

In the country that Scott and I hunt we have a lot of structure for the most part and this structure can be used in many different ways to control how the coyotes respond and approach. When I work a section or series of them I know I can keep the coyotes in front of me in 90+% of the situations by using the geographical features as well as sound control to my advantage. It is all but a non-issue after the first stand. IMO people put to much emphasis on sound. They would be better served if they learned the “when, where, why and how,” of applying it. By using volume control and the natural structures of your hunting areas the right way you will kill more coyotes than the guy that sits next to a bush and turns on there machine full blast and waits for something to happen.

Most people only hunt coyotes during the fall and winter months. At least around here anyway. The long break the coyotes get in the summer months makes them a little more relaxed in their environment. That and a large percentage of the coyotes you will be calling to are going to be YOY in many areas. To call these coyotes takes a textbook effort and a little common sense. Killing them takes experience and talent. The better you can pick your stands and handle the many different situations the more you will kill. Often the ability to shoot quickly and accurately will make all the difference.

I don’t think sound quality gets to be that much of a factor until the coyote has been burned a time or two. Look at it this way. If you were walking down a street and you heard a woman screaming in a frantic voice for help most of us are hardwired to go and do what we can to help but some of us that are scared of the unknown would not. The thought of trying to determine if it is a recording or the real thing or not would not even cross our minds at that point. In other words the content would out weight the quality under the circumstances. We would either run to the woman or we would sneak around to see if the situation would pose any danger to our selves or we would just dial 911 and forget about it or if you were a coyote “bark.” If we as people wouldn’t try and decipher if the woman’s screams are authentic I doubt that a coyote has the thought process to do so. “We,” like the coyote would respond out of instinct in both situations. Our status and mind set at the time would dictate how we would respond. A young boy or a young coyote may just hang back and try and get a look at what was going on and then decide what to do. We will never know for sure why a coyote responds or doesn’t respond. We can only guess and try to make an appeal to the largest percentage of them on our stands unless we have inside information on a particular coyote that we want. I really think that when the coyote doesn’t respond to our calls it is not always the call that spooks them. There are 101 reasons why they won’t come but as callers we always seem to blame the call.

This is all pertaining to daytime calling. Night hunting is a different ball game. Coyotes use the cloak of darkness in their approach so daytime techniques are out the window.

What is better an e-caller or a hand call? It depends on how well you can use either one really. I manage to call in a few coyotes every year with a hand call. E-calls are too impersonal for my tastes and I think if I switched to one it would take away most of my sense of accomplishment. If I were an ADC professional I would use any and every tool available to me for an added advantage so until then I’ll stick to hand calls.

Q,

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2003, 11:00 PM:

Good post, Quinton.

Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on June 29, 2003, 07:36 AM:

Trying to be a bit more serious this morning.

As many of you know most of my calling is for calf killers. I like many of you feel the E-box to be very impersonal. It has to be part of my tool box, Because I may work the same pasture four times in one month.

This is were the E pays off big time for me. I have a CD that beats anything I have ever used hands down. It is CD of new born baby pigs squealing. I have Coyotes race to this sound the day after I have called them with a mouth call.

I can not debate the reason why. I can only report on what I have seen. Yes it works just as good even if there is not a pig for 200 miles.

When I really have to pound a pasture hard. I will use the E at half volume, And call loud with my mouth call. I know this is not news, Many of you do it. I saw it work for DAA on his great video.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 29, 2003, 07:39 AM:

And no one was offended or just plain pissed at ya for saying it. [Smile]

Ditto on what Leonard said.

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 29, 2003, 09:19 AM:

There's been a couple real good posts on this thread. One point that keeps coming up puzzles me somewhat, and that is the personal/impersonal aspect of how the sound we use to call the predator was made. Maybe I just look at it differently, but I could give a damn how the sound is made, it's just sound. As Leonard suggested, non-hunters,kids and grandmothers can puff on a call, and inadvertently call coyotes.It's not like you have to get up on a stage, as one fella suggested here, and have them qualify you "worthy" of sallying forth with an offical coyote calling card in your wallet. I have never looked at it as playing a musical insturement and possessing virtuoso skills. It's the reasonably simple task of pushing air thru a wood or plastic tube to approximate the sound of a critter in distress, or the barks and yips of another coyote....nothing personal about it. I can think of an easy half dozen different skills required for successful coyote calling, but how the sound is made is way down on the list. Im well aware of the "pride" aspect, but thats a bit disingenuous too, otherwise, a guy would want to spin the thread,and weave the fabric to make his own camo, leave the truck home and ride a mule, and dig a pit to lay in wait, and clench a bowie knife between his teeth th slit the old coyote throat!.....now THATS personal.
I used the mouth call for over 25 years before making the switch, so Im not a neophye at noise making. I like the electronic calls, their recorded sound IS a rabbit or rodent or coyote, not you or I trying to sound like one. Ive never felt you could call more coyotes with electronics, but I do believe you can kill more coyotes with their use. Im all for using whatever method you want, but yeah, I brsitle a bit when I read posts implying that the electronic is impersonal and somehow easier than mouth calls........it's not personal........it's just sound.

~Az-Hunter~

------------------------------

"Don't take yourself more serious than your subject"

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 29, 2003, 09:57 AM:

quote:
Ive never felt you could call more coyotes with electronics, but I do believe you can kill more coyotes with their use.

That's about where I'm at. LB

Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on June 29, 2003, 10:16 AM:

Whats the more authentic sound?

The one that sounds like the real thing!

I can only say that a live recording is as close to the real thing as most of us can get. The WT has that one covered better than any other unit on the market.

The most authentic sounding hand call I ever used was a Pied Piper short range call. It sounds as close to a real cottontail as I have ever heard.

Personally, for coyotes, I dont feel the reason a coyote responds is do to him being hungry and the reason hand calls, that dont really sound like a live rabbit, work as well as they do is because the coyote is coming do to several other triggered responces.

But what do I know.

I , like Vic, used hand calls for over 25 years on coyotes in the east before swithing to an E for the last 10 years or so, and then coming west and finding how easy western coyote are to call compared to those big Indiana coyotes. With the E, those big old Indiana coyotes are suckers now. Those live recordings DO make a difference in your KILL success, east and west.
FWIW
Steve

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 29, 2003, 11:05 AM:

Q said "I don't think the quality of sound gets to be much of a factor until the coyote has been burned a time or two." That is my contention, and that in heavily called areas it doesn't take them long to become discriminating towards the sounds that they will respond to. In these areas, if they hear a truck door shut, they can't know or care if it was produced by a Ford or a Dodge. They just associate it with the unpleasantness that follows. When they hear the snick of a safety they can't know or care if it was produced by a Remington or a Ruger, they just associate it with the unpleasantness that follows. When they hear the recorded dying screams of a rabbit echoing from a crackling, scratchy speaker they can't know or care if it emanates form a digitaly mastered WT or the half-worn tape in a 512, they just associate it with the unpleasantness that follows. Like Dennis Miller says "That's just my opinion. I could be wrong." Like Scott says "Only the yippers know and they're not telling."

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 29, 2003, 12:34 PM:

Cdog911, “And no one was offended or just plain pissed at ya for saying it.” LOL you spoke to soon. I can’t win for loosing. LOL

Some states think e-callers are too much of an advantage or not personal enough because they have outlawed them even for coyotes. I think Iowa is one of them. Calling with an e-caller is less personal than with a hand call and calling with your voice is more personal than with a hand call. Calling with a bunny and a pair of pliers would be the most “authentic” but not for me. LOL I once was out calling with an old “blown out” closed reed call and just as I would start to blow on it the damn thing would cut out. While I was trying to inspect the reed to see if their were any obstructions in it I looked up and saw a coyote standing in front of me 10 yards away. I have had several botched stands like this so I know that in a lot of situations the best quality sounds are not needed. Anyone with two minutes of OJT on a CritR call can call coyotes and yes the sound is just one piece of the puzzle. I have hunted over e-callers and CritR calls and I feel like I am more apart of the stand when I use hand calls. Weather I could kill more coyotes with and e-caller or not is immaterial to me at this time. I learned and was weaned on using a hand call and I skin plenty of coyotes with them. The way I hunt I think an E-caller would be more of a disadvantage because many days I walk 6 to 8 miles and some of my stands may only be 400 yards apart. The disadvantages of the e-callers would out weigh its advantages for my style of hunting. I am not willing to change my style of hunting to justify using an e-caller because of how efficient I am with out one.

In my country I don’t loose coyotes because I have a call in my mouth and not both hands on my gun. When I loose a coyote it is because I miss. Maybe once or twice a year I get caught with my pants down and get busted but just because a coyote sees you don’t mean you can’t kill him. A lot of wrecks can happen on a stand and you can still collect the coyote. That’s where marksmanship, thinking on your feet and properly handling coyotes will make up for other shortcomings or slip ups.

I shoot prone and 90+% of the coyotes I kill are looking right at me. I bark, whistle or what ever to stop them and when they look at me I shoot them. Their ears are telling them one thing and their eyes are telling them another. While the information transition is being maid I am killing them.

Q,

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 29, 2003, 01:02 PM:

Another very good policy statement, Q. You are mistaken about winning for losing; there is nobody dumping on you and I've read every word, pro and con.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 29, 2003, 01:13 PM:

Thanks, and you are right Leonard. That was probably a poor choice of words. AZ was just stating his case it was nothing personal. That’s the best any of us can do is state our case. LOL

Q,

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 29, 2003, 02:41 PM:

Q, I was absolutely not, addressing you personally. You are obviously in the philosophical camp I disagree with, but I wasn't shootin' spit balls at you, but rather, the collective thought of your camp. I have a high degree of respect for your abilities, I would be an utter fool to bad mouth your system....it obviously works, for you take an impressive number of animals each season. I don't think most of us who now use electronics, slight or denigrate the mouth callers, but I do get the feeling many mouth callers look down their nose at those of us choosing a different system. Im not sure why that is, but it filters thru the story line of post concerning the matter? I refuse to use the quote method of showing examples, I hate that! but I think it is common knowledge among us, concerning that particular division. Now....to post my answer to the question at hand....the electronic is the most authentic, it can't be any other way, it's inarguable....Ive never heard a mouth call sound as authentic as the digitally recorded sound of a given animal in distress, played thru an E-call. To state otherwise would be ludricous.

~Az-Hunter~

----------------------------

"The louder a man gets in an arguement, the less he is to be believed"

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 29, 2003, 04:08 PM:

Which begs the question: where does the "authentic" sound factor into the success or failure? Obviously, Quinton, Rob, Jay, Lone Howl, Higgins and let's see here....Utcaller, Cdog and many others use hand calls, and to great advantage.

Probably none of them would ever change, and yet, I really feel that numbers favor e callers? And, I don't think it's because of realism; crackly speaker not withstanding.

There's no perfect answer here, but it's fun to see the different points of view. I'll continue to use both, as I see fit.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 29, 2003, 04:22 PM:

That is a good and well-taken point AZ. I see exactly where you are coming from. I do not mean to belittle anyone’s accomplishments because they choose to use e-callers. I was just speaking for myself and my feelings and preferences about the subject. Right or wrong I just feel more accomplished by using hand calls. I can instantaneously change vocalizations when I need to as well as switch to a coaxer by simply changing my breath. It is satisfying to me to be able to control the coyote’s final approach by working with him directly and according to each situation. I feel I have much more control over the stand by using hand calls.

Like varmint hunter I too also hunt the same pastures 4 or more times a month. If I know there are coyotes in there and I am in the area I figure my time is better spent hunting them than driving 20 minutes to a new area. I don’t have the time or the resources to hunt that way. I just keep using change ups and calling from new positions and if the conditions are right for the area I will just spot and stock. I don’t belong to the camp that believes that they need to wait 6 weeks before they hunt an area again nor do I belong to the camp that believes they need to move at least a mile between stands. I just work with what I haveto the best of my ability.

I believe recorded sounds are indeed more “authentic” as far as “authentic” goes. No offence intended but that may be immaterial. The most authentic verses the most effective may not be the same sound? My #1 calling sound doesn’t sound anything like an authentic distress cry. I think Steve is spot on with his theory that coyotes don’t respond necessarily because they are hungry. I have called too many off of carcasses to believe that. I think the respond because of the excitement the call brings to them, because it is a genetic response and because they are territorial. Using distress cries will attract hungry coyotes though. They attract full ones so there is no reason to believe that they wouldn’t attract hungry ones. LOL

I have called in coyotes that came in close and was franticly looking around for the mouse or rabbit or what ever they thought they heard. I have called them in with a mouse squeak and had them all hackled up barking and raising hell. You will get different kinds of responses with the same call so that indicates to me that coyotes don’t respond to a certain call for just one reason. They will NOT respond to calls for just as many reasons as they would. It all depends on the mindset of the coyote at the time or his social states or your proximity to another territory or to a road or house or any other number of things that may turn him off.

I think any coyote out there can be successfully called but at the same time I think that every coyote cannot be called under certain circumstances. The more an area (or specific coyote rather) has been called the narrower your options become (For the time being anyway.)

To kill these coyotes you need to have something that other callers don’t have such as a wider variety of sounds to an extent. Sometimes the difference is night and day, LITERALLY night and day. The more sophisticated the coyotes become the more difficult they are to call and kill them. These educated coyotes (for lack of a better word) will respond readily to calls but only on their terms. You might have to be at the right place in their territory at the right time of the day using the right sound but you can call them. If you have a LOT of ground to work with then you are better off by taking the cream off of the top and forget about the rest. If you are out for fur or numbers you are sometimes just wasting time fooling around trying to trick a stubborn coyote into fireing range. Messing with these coyotes can be very fun, rewarding and educational. If you can learn to trick coyotes that have already been tricked a time or two you will be one step ahead of the local competition.

I usually hunt most every huntable day in the fall and winter so I have time to fool around with a lot of stubborn coyotes and find great satisfaction in whacking them. However I don’t mess with them during the first month or so of season because I am busy hammering the dumb ones. LOL There will always be tuff coyotes to call but the dumb ones don’t last long around here. By January they are for the most part in one of two categories. “Stretched and dried” LOL or dubbed educated by the locals. LOL

Damn! How did I get this far off track? Oh well.

Good hunting.

Q,

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 29, 2003, 04:36 PM:

I understand your position, Leonard. I've used E-callers extensively in the past. The 7 years in Calif. that I hunted exclusively with a bow, I used a moving decoy, a tape player and JS tapes primarily. Too much movement drawing the bow with their attention on me. Same in the heavy cover of Mo., besides three 45 minute stands back to back in a 40 acre compound will give my lips a charly horse. I have quite a bit of experience with both systems, enough to make a reasoned comparison. And I will remain in the ludricous camp. Hmmm, Camp Ludricous. I looked it up and Funk and Wagnal don't have a clue what it means either. But I like it. Leonard would you consider opening a private forum next to High Desert Callers for the Camp Ludricous members? happy face and 2 smileys

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 29, 2003, 06:28 PM:

Darn, Rich! Should have hollered beforehand, just took that one down. [Smile]

Boy some of these posts sure points up the different conditions in various parts of the country.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 29, 2003, 07:54 PM:

Q, don't take me wrong here, but if you are calling the same places week after week, to the degree than you "Need" the versatility in sound to keep the coyotes coming in, you are simply screwing yourself out of a lot of coyotes.

If you have a stubborn coyote that "needs" to be removed ( ADC type work ) then set steel and move on. Don't waste your time and a lot of energy trying to find the one sound that hits the curiosity button on that particular coyote.

If you are only moving 400 yards between stands, you need to consider using a little more volume.

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 29, 2003, 08:45 PM:

Thanks for the advice Tim. I will never say never when it comes to e-callers, as I like to keep my options open. I am stubborn and bull headed and when I find something that works it is hard to let go of even if I may call more coyotes.

Q,

Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on June 29, 2003, 09:04 PM:

Q,
Heres one more thought to through on the pile. Personality traits. I think its safe to assume that coyotes, as individuals, have individual personalities. Along with that comes personality traits. Why not? We all know domestic dogs have persnoalities.

Keep in mind Im not comparing coyotes to people, Im just pointing out similarities in behaviour. Weve all met the kind of person whose slow. Not mentaly, but just doesnt get in a hurry or excited about anything, has all the time in the world. Then theres the over anxious types, always busy and cant sit still. How about the kind of person whose always late for work, always behind, everything is last minute. Not to mention the person that stands 400 yds back to see why the womans screaming.

Education aside mind you, I can relate all of this to what Ive seen in my very limited experience. Reactions ranged from one extreme to the other in different, and same calling areas using the same sound. I know Im just complicating things more, but its a thought worth consiteration. One more thing to add to the fact that we cant pin point exactly why they come in.

Heres something I remember hearing on a Bill Austin tape. "If a coyote comes in to a rabbit distress on a given day, theyre all likely to come in to a rabbit distress that day."
"If a coyote ignores a rabbit distress on a given day, theyre all likely to ignore it that day."
Thats to my best memory anyway. It gets the point across. This theory has held up, for me anyway. I bring this up because a lot of my calling days have been blanks, and with previously sucessfull calls. Going back to the same area two weeks later a friend and I got six. They bit on everything we threw at them. Still assuming they were mostly YOY, all the responces differed.
Just a little more to chew on. [Wink]

Brad

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 29, 2003, 09:34 PM:

Leonard, Rich has a stellar idea concerning the new forum for members of camp ludicrous. I support him, and offer up the first nomination of him, as king hell dictator of camp ludicrous, it's a marriage of concepts and leadership:)

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on June 29, 2003, 10:10 PM:

Only one way to prove what works best. The losers buy the beer lol. Leonard, we know what works best, we have done em both. I tried to keep out of this one...but... I'm sorry....I just had to say something lol. I'll put money on this one..."if"...we can do it our why>>>>hand calls lose by a long shot. If you guys are honest about it, how many of you really sound like a real rabbit? hehehe not many. A coyote, bobcat, gray fox responds to most any crazy sound and you all know that. It's not about the real animal sound or using hand calls, it's about how many stands you can make in a day or night lol. The guy that makes the most stands in a (good area gets the most animals,) it's that simple....sorry, hehehe. Ok I'm ready for the bombs and PS, Good Hunting.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 29, 2003, 10:49 PM:

Vic, do not confuse the issue by changing the spelling. I like your first version and think it is more appropriate, so Camp Ludricous it is. I cannot accept the esteemed title "King Hell Dictator" as sole ownership has been granted in perpetuity to the originators, Vic and J-H. In Camp Ludricous the inmates shall run the asylum, a true democracy.

Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on June 29, 2003, 11:02 PM:

Danny,
Money is no issue. Come up here in the badlands and show me how its done and Ill buy all the beer you can drink. LOL I need a pro to tell me what Im doing wrong, or tell me theres no coyotes. 200+ sections of undeveloped cedar creek bottom access and nothing is showing up!!! WHAT THE HELL!? [Big Grin]

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 29, 2003, 11:25 PM:

quote:
200+ sections of undeveloped cedar creek bottom access and nothing is showing up!!! WHAT THE HELL!?

WHAT!!!!!!! [Confused]

I’ll see you in January!! [Smile]

LOL

Q,

Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on June 29, 2003, 11:41 PM:

Q,
No Sh**
Need gas money?

Brad

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on June 29, 2003, 11:43 PM:

AZ: "I refuse to use the quote method of showing examples, I hate that!"

I know what you mean Vic, it really pisses me off when people do that to me when there isn't a hell of a lot I can do about it. LOL!

Lighten up Vic or you'll blow a vessel!

RH: "Vic, do not confuse the issue by changing the spelling. I like your first version and think it is more appropriate, so Camp Ludricous it is. I cannot accept the esteemed title "King Hell Dictator" as sole ownership has been granted in perpetuity to the originators, Vic and J-H. In Camp Ludricous the inmates shall run the asylum, a true democracy."

LMAO!

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

Now I see where Tyler gets it!

I'm glad the testosterone is flowing in a different direction this time.

What does a membership to Camp Ludricous cost Rich?

Sounds like a fun place! Do we have to sit around the fire and sing the Barney song while blowing our howlers?

To the topic at hand,

The biggest advantage that I see personally in the E callers is to get the sound away from me in certain situations. Especially in heavy cover. I also believe there is going to be more volume in most situations with say a WT than a typical hand call and probably most howlers.

Hope that opinion wasn't too ludricous!

~SH~

Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on June 30, 2003, 12:24 AM:

I'd be willing to bet a lot of the stuff I call resembles Nebraska. The 6 coyotes came from the wide sage bottom cedar stretch. Now that I think about it, There's no individual whose knowledge surpasses my own. Around here anyway. When I ask a land owner if I can call, I get "Well, there was a government trapper here...No ones ever called here though. Calling? I don't know how that works." Or "What do you mean howl in?" Or "During that tournament there was some guys here..." Or "No ones ever asked to hunt coyotes. Do ya call'em or what?" And in prime country no less! I'm not kidding 200+ square miles.

Cal Taylor went to school here for 2 years but I think that's the time of year when he makes his money as an outfitter. So

Pro wanted. All inquiries concitered. [Smile]

You keep the furs, I get the knowledge

Brad

[ June 30, 2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: brad h ]

Posted by pup (Member # 90) on June 30, 2003, 07:41 AM:

This one will always bring out the opinions.

I like the fact (as others have mentioned) that the sound is away from you with the ecallers, getting the focus of the coyote some where else, but me.

I like the fact that I can make a quick change with the hand calls, without flipping through the channels.

I have a very dusty e-caller. I like to use the hand calls for different reasons.

The whole debate is Fords, chevys, etc. When used right they will all get you to town.

Now can the coyote tell the difference?

Who knows? Who will ever know?

later pup

Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on June 30, 2003, 08:28 AM:

I agree with ONECOYOTE , to get more coyotes, make more stands. I posted long time ago of my methods, call, drive about a mile, call, do this all day, all weekend, and you will get a good body count. I'm not a know it all- but the idea of walking 400 yards and calling seems silly, any coyote in half mile will come to distress sound, he might not come in, or you might not see him, but I don't think any of them ignores sound.
Richard Grantham

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on June 30, 2003, 09:40 AM:

Richard

No real argument here, it is a numbers game but it also is a game of percentages. In my area walking in to "some" stands can pretty much double the percent on coyotes shot per stand made. Less stands per day but the same number of coyote shot.

The main problem I have with large numbers of stands per day, is the private property issues. Sometimes it can take up to one hour just to locate the owner in order to get permission to hunt. It would be foolish on my part to take the time to get permission to hunt and then setup in a position to give me a lower percentage. I pay alot of attention to setups. If I need to walk 400 yds to put me in a postion to not only see but also to shoot a coyote, I'll do it in a heart beat.

When I'm out west with lot's of BLM and other public area, I pretty much start with the bump and run style of calling. If that's not paying off I'll start walking in farther to call.

OT: If the sound really doesn't matter, how many of you would end a calling series or howling series on a "sour" note?

Dennis

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on June 30, 2003, 12:15 PM:

brad, I can't do it my way where you're at. Whats a cedar? And whats a section? Man you guys talk funny up there lol, Good Hunting.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 30, 2003, 04:03 PM:

I'm keeping a mental count. It's a good thing that there are a number of ways to hunt coyotes, or this could be confusing.

I think we all know who refers to himself as the King Hell Dictator. AZ never used that title, did he? He just taught the big guy everything he knows, but not everything he knows. That's what a Guru's supposed to do.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 30, 2003, 04:10 PM:

By the way, we need to hear more from the "intermediate" type callers out there. Everybody can see that there is no consensus on what's real sounding, and what works the best.

So, for the neophite, or the guy that's just coming into his own: what's the best road, the easiest method? Has anything here changed your mind, or caused you to try something different?

If we aren't getting to this level of caller, we're just spinning our wheels, in some respects, don't ya think?

Good hunting. LB

And, nobody's going to put you down for your opinion, you can bet on that!

Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on June 30, 2003, 04:25 PM:

I have two e callers and they work.Almost all my coyote calling is done with mouth calls.Because I travel light.When I find cats its time for the e caller.As to which one is best thats a personal decision like a ford or chevy.

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 30, 2003, 05:05 PM:

Ive noticed a few comments made about the "weight factor" of the electronics. If you went hunting with me, you could honestly say there was a major weight factor involved. My particular machine with battery is right at 15 pounds. Thats a half a coyote in weight.....no wonder I don't tote many back to the truck:) If a guy is concerned about weight, there are a bunch of alternatives. My hunting partner went thru three different machines last year before finding one that suit him. Steve Taylor Outdoor products makes a very light weight caller, mp3 design, with fairly good battery life. The only thing we changed on the set-up was the speaker. It was much to big for the unit and sound, so we swapped it out with his old JS speaker, the short range model. This whole package fits literally in the back of a fanny pack. There are alternatives out ther other than the heavier models. Many guys are building their own from electronics parts houses, radio shack etc. Ive seen examples of units that were no bigger than two packs of cigarettes back to back, and thats with remote capability, electronics have come a long way.

Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on June 30, 2003, 11:30 PM:

Ok Leonard you shook me out of the shadows. LOL.

From what I have read and gleaned from this topic I have to conclude the following.

If you want to sound exactly like a rabbit, deer or what ever, with an occasional pop or crack play the e-caller.

If you want to present a realistic distress scenario with a variation of tempo, sounds, high lows ect. Use the hand call.

And then the possibility of calling with your voice, I seem to remember someone pitching his calls about the same time I was picking my first one up.

I imagine many coyotes have fallen to all three methods.

I believe it could be argued that each have there own degree of authenticity. Depending on what the individual caller desires and is comfortable with.

Although I strive to become more consistent, I usually don’t really care about numbers I’m there for the experience, I have practiced long and hard to manipulate the hand call the way I do. I feel a sense of satisfaction when I call ‘em close. I guess that puts me in the Camp Ludricous, LOL, but I can see the sense of satisfaction in fooling a coyote with the e-caller as well. After I downloaded the “you can’t do this with a hand call” from the dark side, I realized that I was using the e-call all wrong. LOL The biggest advantage I see to the e-call is the sound keeps the coyote focused away from me. It also gives the beginner confidence that the sound he is using has called coyotes before.

No matter which one or combination I choose if I set up wrong or where the coyotes are not, I still go home empty handed. Didn’t Purple 220 say “Set ups kill coyotes.” in another thread? Q mentioned using the lay of the land to manipulate the coyotes approach.

Has this thread changed my approach to calling? Not yet. It has given me some ideas for my next dry spell though. I will let the coyotes decide from there. [Smile]

Posted by yotecaller (Member # 179) on July 01, 2003, 04:57 PM:

I would say that I use hand calls most of the time because that is what I have been used too and it is so much easyer to set up.If I am targeting cats I like to use my FoxPro because I can`t call as long as I use to with my hadcalls.If I had a remote for my FoxPro I would use it more than I do now.And without the remote the only advantage an ecaller has is it takes the sound away from you and also you will get less headaches on a long day.Over all I will stick with the hand calls but I sure won`t throw away my ecaller.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 01, 2003, 05:24 PM:

Let's hear it for Camp Ludicrous!!! Is Camp Ludicrous anything like Camp Runamuck? Sounds like they run under the same rules. [Smile]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 01, 2003, 06:56 PM:

[Razz]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 02, 2003, 06:11 PM:

I have been busy as a fly on sticky paper for past week or two, but have found the time to read most of the posts on this subject. Some very good idea's have been presented already. Which sound is more realistic sounding? Well it depends. Let's take a grown cottontail rabbit sound for example. A good clear recording on tape, CD or digital machine and played over a good quality speaker will sound most realistic for the first dozen or so squeals. After that, the continuos squealing becomes less and less realistic because a real rabbit can't squeal for that dang long without a rest. [Smile]

Does a coyote really care if it sounds perfect or not? Usually NOT. Now if you don't kill the coyote when he comes in, he is gonna leave a bit smarter.

Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on July 03, 2003, 06:01 AM:

OK Leonard,

You asked some of us neophites (What the hell kind of word it that?) [Wink]

to chime in. It's my turn.

I use mouth calls. Someone in an earlier thread mentioned that coyotes can hear in a higher frequency than we can. Metal/plastic reeds might not reproduce a sound that is as realistic as an e-caller but it does produce more of that range that we can't hear. In fact, it produces the full range of sound that an e-caller speaker can't. Does that matter? Beats me.

I like it for the light weight, ease of use and ability to change tone and volume with a single breath. I can howl, scream and coax with the same call in my face.

Unlike Q, I don't call prone. I've got a bad neck so usually sit up. Sometimes right out in the open with no cover. I count on my camo and sitting still. And, you know what? It works. I don't have coyotes spot me and race off. In fact, they come in looking right at me. I don't move and they don't have a clue.

I generally hunt with a partner who I put out down wind. Sometimes the coyote will cautiously swing down wind because he feels something isn't quite right. Then my partner shoots him.

But, for the most part I hunt with a hand call because I like the feeling that "I" called him in. Any dummy can push a button on an electronic caller. (that one was for AZ.) [Wink]

I also think if a person is going to develop the needed skill and talent needed for using hand calls, then he damned well better shoot the best coyote caliber on the market, ie. the .17 rem. [Wink]

Later
Randy

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 03, 2003, 06:57 AM:

"I also think if a person is going to develop the needed skill and talent needed for using hand calls, then he damned well better shoot the best coyote caliber on the market, ie. the .17 rem."
----------------------------------------
Good one Buker!,
If you get a really small coyote in close enough, that little pop gun just might work for ya too. LOL [Smile]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 03, 2003, 08:53 AM:

Randy, your handicaps are well known to all of us that frequent the boards. Thanks for sharing, refreshing candor!

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 216) on July 07, 2003, 08:45 PM:

Ive called mainly in southern AZ but last two seasons made it up to Northern Az and New Mexico,terrain was much different but called in lots of coyotes they seemed to responed like a southern AZ coyote. I love to call in coyotes so I dont see anything wrong with being close to where the people are because thats where the coyotes are.

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on July 07, 2003, 11:28 PM:

Hawkeye, You said a mouth full. Yep, coyotes like to hang out around people. Southern Arizona is a good example. It's one of the most populated coyote areas in North America. You must understand, being from California as I am does not make me any kind of expert......but I have heard through the grapevine, Southern Arizona has tons of coyotes. I've also heard anything south of that is even better? One of these days I'm going to have to go down there and find out, lol. Good Hunting.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 08, 2003, 07:11 AM:

Danny,

I'm afraid someone has been lying to you. There aren't many coyotes at all down here. You can call for days with out seeing one.

You best bet is over in California or up North from what I hear.

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on July 08, 2003, 01:04 PM:

Tim, I've been lied to again? [Frown]

And just to think I was planing a trip down there this fall. Thanks, you have saved me some gas money. [Smile]

Up north you say, where up north? [Confused]

I need to find a place to call in a few coyotes. [Big Grin]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 08, 2003, 04:57 PM:

Well, I'll be hornswoggled! Folks ask me where to go, and I always tell them, McNeal, AZ. Go have your picture taken with a legend. And now you tell me the hunting's no good?

Where's a good spot in California, Tim? [Smile]

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 09, 2003, 06:41 AM:

Leonard,

The honest truth is that this valley is getting over run with coyote hunters. I know I shouldn't talk, as I just moved here three years ago. On some weekends you can go out, have a decent day of calling, and literally see more trucks full of coyote hunters than you will coyotes.

Nobody ever writes posts on the net about ho-hum days of calling. Days you can call all day and never take a shot. Everybody writes about those great days, when even a fart as you exit a truck will send a group of coyotes running into your lap. So every mid winter weekend, it seems half of AZ and Southern California head for Cochise county. Thinking they can kill 3 coyotes every time they blow on a call.

Vic has told me he has taken to traveling to do his hunting, I know I traveled a lot further last year to call, and am planning on doing it a lot more often this winter.

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on July 09, 2003, 11:27 AM:

Tim, I know what you mean. Many of the places I used to hunt are shot up by new guys that educate coyotes. Worse than that is the loss of habitat due to new housing tracts etc. I moved out to the high desert about 16 years ago, now half of LA is moving out here. It's enough to make you sick watching all the animal lovers building houses where you used to hunt and where the animals used to roam...... Makes no sense to me.
Tim, I've hunted all over the southwest in my hunting career. When I said what I said about southern Arizona, I was not thinking about the million new guys reading magazines and lurking on the internet. But I think it's already too late. Some of my favorite places to hunt in Nevada are history, either shot up by new guys or the government helicopter hunters got em. California is almost out of the question anymore; too many rules, loss of habitat and the loss of public lands. Can't hunt Baja or Sonora anymore either. So what's left? I got an idea, why don't we start telling people how good New Mexico is lol. Good Hunting.

Posted by bucksnort (Member # 202) on July 10, 2003, 07:01 PM:

Leonard,........Legend??????......You have to be kidding!!!!!!

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 10, 2003, 07:30 PM:

We wanted both Leonard and Bruce Kennedy, but the latter is nowhere to be found.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 10, 2003, 10:14 PM:

Rich,

I don't think Bruce is posting anywhere right now. But don't worry, if it's on any type of coyote board, he reads it. He's a hell of a good guy, and one of the few I know of who can stay pissed longer than me.

Danny,

Most of these new guys are gullible as hell, and New Mexico is still too close to me. I'd hate for them to get lost and end up here. How about we tell them about how great the calling is up around San Francisco?

How come we can't call in Sonora? I've been meaning to checking into the permits and going there myself since I moved down here.

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on July 11, 2003, 12:19 PM:

Tim, I have some kin that have a cattle ranch down there in New Mexico South of Animas. Lots of coyotes and most of it is private land that I can hunt, no newbies allowed lol.....You live by Vic and JH? Do you go hunting with them?.....Yeah, San Fran. The city by the bay sounds good to me, I hear the coyote population up there is huge. A guy can get 20 coyotes a day I was told by one oldtimer.
I use to hunt Mexico back in the 80s, mostly Baja. I hunted Sonora a couple times and it was awsume. It's hard to explane how good the predator calling is down there to people because they just don't believe you. It's also not cheap to hunt there, last time I went I think it was $350 for the Mexican gun permits and the Mexican hunting license. Now days I'd bet it's somewhat more and I'm not sure a guy can even hunt predators with or without out a guide?
Tim, just to give you an idea how good Mexico is if you don't already know. My old hunting partner Granville and I took 27 coyotes, five bobcats and five grays off one road in just a few hrs of hunting, could have taken alot more but didn't have the time. Another time in Sonora we only took 22 coyotes because the truck got stuck and it took hours to get it out. We probably could have doubled that number if we didn't get stuck. Many times we took animals in the 20s and 30s down there. Like I said, it's just to hard for some to believe, but it's true. If you really want to check into it, let me know and I'll tell you where we went. Good Hunting.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 11, 2003, 04:12 PM:

Tim, I used to go down there, and I know a number of guys that did. Guess what? Not any more. It's dangerous, and the unworkable red tape, and the regulations on body parts, and the guide crap, and the cost is prohibitive. You have to go see the Army and show them the guns and this could require several trips, before your trip. You need a broker, who wants money, and who can't get anything straight. No military calibers, and only fifty rounds per gun, and only two guns; period.

Get the idea? Everybody I know has completely lost interest. It's the drugs and all that stuff that really scares a guy off. They don't mess around. A friend of mine got out of there minus his Belgian Browning Superposed; a bribe, of course.

Not for the faint of heart. They interpret laws, creatively. All officials, all federales and all police are corrupt, if you are an American. Keep some money in each pocket and some more in your shoes. Whatever you pull out is what it's going to cost you.

It's a damn shame, but I'm not going back. Hunting, that is. The fishing is still reasonable, and absolutely world class.

Think it over carefully.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on July 11, 2003, 08:26 PM:

Leonard, it was a little scary back when I did it and there was always red tape. I also remember road blocks by the feds asking if you had drugs or guns, I would not go there any more either if what you said is whats going on, I don't put anything past them people down there.
the type of fishing I liked best down there was surf fishing. We caught white seabass over 50 lbs off the beach and yellowtail in the 20 lb class, plus lots of other fish, talking about fun. We fished from just south of San Quintin to Guerrero Negro about 500 miles down. Last time I was down there fishing was about ten years ago. I heard fisherman were getting killed and robed on the beaches at night, so I don't go anymore. Leonard, I think you told me you hunted in Sonora, were you hunting close to the Arizona border? We did and thats where we saw tons of coyotes, and you know why lol, to bad the truck got stuck.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 11, 2003, 08:56 PM:

Danny,

I'm about 5 miles as the crow flies from John-Henry's, and it's just a couple of more miles over to Vic's house.

John-Henry and I hunt together several times a year, we'd go more, but I'm not much into hunting with dogs, and he hates to leave home with out them.

The only time Vic and I went calling, was once last fall he took me up to a place to try calling a bear. We keep talking about going out, but like Leonard said in an earlier post. Once you show a guy a new area, you are pretty much giving it up to him. And I can't blame Vic for not wanting to give up any areas that still hold coyotes. I've got a few areas I've found on my own and won't hunt with any one but my kids there. One of these days, Vic and I will get together on a place well known to both of us, and run it out of coyotes on short order.

We both ended up with the same Honey hole, two years in a row, with out either of us knowing that the other hunted there until well after we quit calling.

I was headed for the Mexican Customs office tonight, parked the truck and started walking for the Port of Entry. Got distracted by a pretty Senyorita in the Barbershop and ended up with a crappy looking haircut and no information on hunting in Mexico. [Roll Eyes]

I've a couple of places I really like to call, literally bringing them across the border to the rifle. I just can't help but think if I could get just a couple of miles further South, how much better the calling would be!

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