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Author
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Topic: What's the more "authentic" sound?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 27, 2003 03:53 PM
Talked to Rich Higgins yesterday, and guess what?
We disagreed!
Basically, he claims that he can tell that sound is coming from an electronic speaker; and maybe he can? Presumably, even the WT? So, that's why he uses hand calls, it's more realistic.
But, wait a minute. Hand calls, using plastic, metal or a latex reed is "more realistic" to a coyote's ears?
Are all predator calls at least a little artificial? Unless you are strangling a rabbit with your bare hands, any method you use, tape, digital, or a variety of hand calls; it's not genuine sound, and yet, it attracts coyotes.
Are coyotes (that) discriminating? They know a sound is not a natural sound, but reproduced in some way?
So, explain all those dead coyotes.
What do you say?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 27, 2003 04:15 PM
Yep, we disagreed and we're doing so again. You've presented what I said out of context. This one, as you've posted it, is going to generate a lot of flack and I ain't taking the heat for it. What I told you is that I have 3 E-callers and don't use any of them for a variety of reasons. 1. I like to play the music, be a musician and not be a disk-jockey. 2. I don't like packing the weight and the hassle of the set up. 3. I can tell when the sound is playing through a speaker, including the 2 WTs I've called over, and I'll bet money a coyote can too. As I said to you, this is not an issue to YOYs in Sept. or virgin eared coyotes that just slipped over the border in southern Az. But I'll wager money it will make a difference to a coyote that has prior experience with crackly speaker sounds. The fourth reason is that no E-caller has the versatility needed to drag call shy coyotes out of the brush one ear at a time like hand calls and howlers. Plain and simple.
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted June 27, 2003 05:29 PM
Oh Boy. The SHTF. Which is more authentic? I think you meant realistic. Either way Memorex gets my vote. If you're asking if a coyote can tell the difference, the answer is... I can't even believe you asked that question. Not only no, but hell no a coyote can't tell. If you're asking if an e-caller will call more coyotes. The answer is... Doesn't it depend on who is using the callers (both E and none-E)?
My personal opinion for what it's worth and maybe nobody cares, but the electronics are great for beginners who want to kill a coyote. They're great for an expert who wants to kill a coyote. They're terrific for camera work and somebody who wants to sit back and film. Are they as good as hand calls? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Realistic sound doesn't even play into the equation. Does a flourescent Rapalla look like a shiner? An e-caller can't work and coax a coyote like a hand call can. I don't care if it can play 200 sounds at once and serve hot coffee out the side.
With that being said... It does not matter. The game is to call in a coyote to you. The thrill is diminished when you ambush a dog going to a record player. The best stories are the ones where the desert poochie is running at your nose to bite it. Why... I remember one time a couple years ago when this big ol male coyote when running at my 8-track player... I mean it was such a thrill... I mean you should'a seen it! That player was crappin' all over itself and danged if a battery didn't pop a seal. How boorish is that?
Are we killin' or callin'?
Edited because I misspelt a word and forgot to say something else.
[ June 27, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 27, 2003 05:39 PM
Well, I wouldn't want you to take any flack, I didn't take your comments "out of context", intentionally.
Okay, you stated your position.
Question: is a coyote just as conditioned to a Circe Jackrabbit, played badly; as to 101C played on a crackly speaker? Perhaps they shy away from both? Perhaps neither? YOY, and virgin border animals don't come to your sounds? Previously called animals can only be fooled the next time by hand calls?
I think it all has a place, electronic and hand calls. If your machine doesn't have the versatility you require, supplement it with your appropriate hand call(s).
Okay now, no flack directed at Rich!
Good hunting. LB
edited for a misspelled word. Please excuse.
[ June 27, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted June 27, 2003 06:14 PM
RH: "3. I can tell when the sound is playing through a speaker, including the 2 WTs I've called over, and I'll bet money a coyote can too."
"?"
~end of flak~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 27, 2003 06:33 PM
All right, both of you guys are just plain evil.
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted June 27, 2003 07:35 PM
Coyote #1:
Hey! I hear a rabbit in distress!
Coyote #2:
Whoa there you ol flea bag. That sounds like a WT Caller. Yep. That’s what it is alright.
Coyote #1:
I hear tell they offer true digital audio quality playback devices specially designed for outdoor use. They also boast the world's largest library of studio-grade recordings of North American mammals, owls, hawks, falcons, eagles and birds and such. They even claim that All vocalizations are digitally recorded and digitally processed (DDD). Why…With their tools, they say you will get closer to the animals than ever before. Whether you're a hunter, a photographer, a birder, a wildlife biologist or a naturalist, their product will significantly increase your chances of viewing success. We need one of them.
Coyote #2:
Yep! They are a group of digital engineers who actively participate in wildlife calling who were frustrated with the ineffectual and obsolete technology used in today's typical wildlife caller, so they decided to bring wildlife calling into the 21st century by integrating solid state audio equipment and digitally recording the largest library of CD-quality North American mammal and bird sounds in the world. With their knowledge of electronics and animal vocalizations we don’t stand a chance.
Coyote #1:
I heard that some of their customers include Disney, Motorola, Soundelux, Warner Brothers, USDA Federal Trappers, US Forest Service, US Geological Survey, Canadian Wildlife Service, Australia Zoological Agency, Australia Department of Parks and Wildlife, Zoo's in the US and abroad, UK DNR, landfills in the US and Canada along with many hunters, photographers, biologists, and nature watchers worldwide.
Coyote #2:
The rated sound quality has a frequency response of 20HZ to 20Khz at 16 bit resolution.
Coyote #1:
If we could figure out how to dial a telephone we could call (603)898-4194 and speak directly to the owner and he’s play us some pretty sample sounds.
Coyote #2:
Sure am lucky you have a trained ear.
Coyote #1:
It’s those damned hand calls that keep me fooled. Hey! Let’s go cruise US-80 for some road pizza.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted June 27, 2003 08:45 PM
I can't see how a hand call could ever sound more like a distressed rabbit, than an actual recording of a distressed rabbit.
They work, and they work well. But the only way you are going to tell the difference, is if you've heard a distressed rabbit. And the one that sounds just like it, is obviously the recording.
They both have their place, but for those us less socially inclined. ( I call by myself a lot ) You will kill a lot more coyotes with an Electronic, than you will with a hand call.
Coyotes come in better when the sound is continuous. If you keep starting and stopping the calling, ( Or changing sounds ) the coyote is going to get suspicious, and circle. Many times leaving before you even see him.
It all boils down to what you want out of a hunt. If you want a social event, take your buddies and a hand call. If you want to take home a lot of dead coyotes, take the electronic.
Tim
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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jerry
Knows what it's all about
Member # 195
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posted June 27, 2003 08:51 PM
I will admit the best call i own is the squeaky door hinge on my jeep . i guess it could be an e. caller , the jeep does have a battery ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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heck yeah Ill take my wife callin, when she learns how to skin a coyote.
Posts: 30 | From: washington state | Registered: May 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted June 27, 2003 10:20 PM
I have to say I call a lot more animals with hand calls.I call by myself most times and I can move a lot faster and get more stands in with em.But Im very comfortable with them.I like using ecalls also but mainly when Im trying to create a specific scenerio as in pissing off coyotes with greyfox and rabbit sounds in the summer or whatever.
I use my ecaller mostly for calling grey fox actually.
I really dont think the actual sound makes a huge difference cause every rabbit sounds different anyway.I personaly think a good caller can impart a lot more realism with handcalls as far as cadence, squealing, high/low pitches,etc than can be acomplished with ecalls because it can be done instantaneous and at will during the sequence.Sometimes just a small pitch change or a little squeal in the sequence is all it takes to bring a dog thats hung up.I also like to use a realistic cadence, I dont call continuously.I think a lot of people try to do this with handcalls and get winded so badly they shy away from them and never learn to use them very well so they think an ecall is the only way to go for them.
Im typing in my sleep so Im probably not making sense, goodnight. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ June 27, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted June 27, 2003 10:29 PM
Tim, I call exclusively with hand calls and I hunt alone most of the time. Percentage wise how much better do you think I would do if is switched over to an e-caller and why?
Thanks.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 27, 2003 10:33 PM
I didn't try to engage the question of who's got the better method. Obviously, it's personal choice, and that's good enough for me.
What struck me was the theory that a recorded sound of an actual rabbit in distress could be detected because of the electronis "sound" of the speaker. And, if I didn't get it right again, please correct me, Rich.
So, I'm thinking that if they can notice the metalic sound that you get from a speaker, then why couldn't a coyote detect fake distress cries made by a plastic hand call with a vibrating metal reed? It's not a natural sound. It's an imitation, a mimic.
And, of course, how we use a hand call has very little to do with accurate rabbit sounds. I've heard dying rabbits, and my hand calling doesn't sound like the real thing; at least to me?
Please, do not project heat. I'd feel somewhat responsible, should a certain party develop a case of the vapors. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted June 27, 2003 11:34 PM
Leonard........Your a flagrant provocatuer.... one of your better qualities I might add:)
~Az-Hunter~
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"most predator hunting board members act the same"
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted June 27, 2003 11:54 PM
Higgins....I'd be careful If I were you. Every now and again you have some kind of retarded Freudian slip of the tongue, and make mention of lop eared, virgin eared coyotes, slipping thru the border fence to be called by us nimrod hunters....or thats how it sounds. It always gives me pause, because of the implication our coyotes are easier than your coyotes....whats up with that?I watched the video remember....and I can tell you I saw way to many chimney tops, backyard fences, garbage cans, and people watching from their lofts while you huffed and howled at coyotes that are obviously one step away from domestication. Im not sure if it's a fair evaluation of call types when including those backyard, garbage eating coyotes in the equation:) Maybe the tinny sound of garbage can lids banging together would be more productive than either mouth or electronic calls? You could still be the closet musician you fancy yourself, only play the symbols instead of the sax:). Of course....this is all in fun, and we don't wish to get Leonard in any hot water for stirring the pot:)
~Az-Hunter~
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Most urban coyotes act differently than our wild southern arizona coyotes"
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted June 27, 2003 11:57 PM
I could say some things, but I don't want to get into this. Except I'll say this much hehehe. Guys that take big numbers of animals don't use hand calls, take it from there guys lol. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted June 28, 2003 03:48 AM
Good post Jay!
If you compare someone who is very good with a handcall to someone with an electronic call, the advantage of the electronics is generally three fold:
1. Getting the focus off of you and onto the caller which is typically placed away from you.
2. Having at your fingertips a diversity of realistic sounds for different situations. Granted, when compared to someone who is very good with handcalls, this advantage is certainly minimized.
3. Those "handcallers" who think continous calling is a ticket to their success can limit their hand movement, spend more time looking, and not have to wear themselves out calling continually.
In Rich H's defense here, I can also say that I doubt that I will call many more coyotes with the WT over what I have always done with hand calls and other vocalizations.
On the other hand, I also believe there will certainly be advantages to getting the sound away from you and taking the focus off of me that will offset the inconvenience of packing the equipment and charging batteries.
Moving the focus also becomes more important in heavier brush.
I don't know whether a coyote knows the difference between someone that is good with a hand call and/or vocalizations as compared to the sounds of an electronic call but I seriously doubt it makes a difference to most of them.
Few coyotes will refuse the right sounds with either system. Those that do refuse probably have reasons unrelated to the sound.
Had quite a discussion with a respected calling friend recently on the topic of how many sounds were really needed to kill 95% of the coyotes. We both felt that virtually every coyote that is callable could be located, called, handled, AND SHOT with probably 6 - 7 different sounds.
Dan Hehehe: "Guys that take big numbers of animals don't use hand calls, take it from there guys.."
Kicking the antpile again huh? LOL!
~SH~
[ June 28, 2003, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted June 28, 2003 05:51 AM
Wiley
What's your opinion on the WT howls for locating purposes? Sound OK or would you prefer one of the howlers or voice?
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 28, 2003 10:00 AM
You know, Dennis. Some of these questions are almost classic. Down wind/up wind, hand call vs electronic, etc. The one that flummoxes a few of us is "locating" by howling.
Scott does that, but I don't, generally. The word itself is a bit confusing.
Consider. You are standing in the middle of a twenty mile stretch, without a clue. You howl and wait for a response. If you don't get one, you move, and repeat. If you get a response, in the form of a howl, you go there and set up.
In Scott's method, he has a clue, and a direction. The howl is initially an attempt to get the coyote to come to him, (ie: hunting) as much as an attempt at "locating" the animal.
Regarding the method of calling, howler, WT or voice; you know what he's going to say.
When I howl, it is never an attempt to "locate" coyotes. I'm hunting coyotes and I expect them to come running into my setup. If he is way over yonder, I pretty much ignore him. I go where the road goes, I will not traipse hither and yon, miles from my vehicle.
So, some of these descriptive words can miss the mark, and it's natural that some clarification is in order.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 28, 2003 10:17 AM
Scott, to answer for Danny. I believe what he meant was from a left coast perspective, and the fact that we wind up with a significantly higher body count than other parts of the country. But, this is due to the fact that we are night hunters, as much as that we tend to favor electronics, with "spot" application of hand calls. What that means is that I might use a hand call for a total of five minutes on a twenty minute stand. He hunts the same way, in that regard.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted June 28, 2003 12:36 PM
Q,
With an E-caller, you can spend 100% of your concentration on a stand looking for an incoming coyote.
When the coyote comes in, he is not going to be looking at you, his concentration is going to be on a bush 25 yards from you.
Ever have a coyote come running around the back of the bush you were leaning against and scare the crap out of both of you?
With an E-caller, he would have run right past you, and not seen you when you jumped out of your seat.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted June 28, 2003 01:11 PM
Az-Hunter,
Rich just doesn't understand how much extra trouble we have to go though to call with a Spanish Accent so those coyotes will understand us.
While I was out this morning, I had the chance to latch onto a Jackrabbit and listen to a few of his screams. ( Purely for purposes of scientific research only ) Jay Nistetter happens to make the most beautiful music I've ever heard on a call. But that Old Jack didn't sound anything like Jay, or myself, or anyone else I've ever heard.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 28, 2003 01:49 PM
Yep, I got sideways in hurry on this one. Carlson, quite honestly I didn't even think about you. I had in mind one of Steve Craigs posts about N.W. dispersal flow and how he had called a huge amount of virgin-eared Mehican co-yo-tes. in your area. But I don't mind if Freud doesn't mind. BTW, if your in the mood for a bit of irony, look up nimrod in your dictionary. Carlson: "I watched the video, remember?" Actually I didn't know that you had. You e-mailed me requesting a copy which I immediately sent to you. You did not acknowledge receipt or say thank you, which probably was a minor oversight, so you're welcome. Your tone is faintly disparaging, so if you are in any way dissatisfied with the raw, unedited footage that I sent you I will gladly refund your money. Oh, wait. It was free. Never mind. Carlson since I never set up any where that I don't expect a coyote to respond to, I have never called in my closet. heh heh. If you took umbrage with my post and felt it was directed at you, please be assured it was not. I am sure you are very skilled and talented in the manner in which you play your E-caller. If ever you decide to enter the state calling championship, I am confident you can climb onto the platform and push that button with the best of them. And having seen your demonstration of handcalls on your video, I understand why you use an electronic caller. All in fun. Hope no one gets the vapors.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 28, 2003 01:56 PM
Scott: "We both felt that virtually every coyote that is callable could be located, called, handled, and shot with probably 6-7 different sounds." On a thread sometime ago you warned us that you would occasionally drop a gem if you were not careful.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 28, 2003 02:16 PM
And, there you go. I have seen children honk on a call and attract coyotes and bobcats. Basically, it doesn't matter what you use, it all works. We are having fun, splitting hairs, and revealing personal preferences. But, that's what we want to hear, because there IS no answer. Opinion is the currency we go by, around here.
Rich, sorry about AZ poking at you. I'll scold him via e-mail!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 28, 2003 02:38 PM
Robb Krause and I were out this morning calling coyotes to the camera with a large yellow rubber ducky. Worked better than a scratchy, crackly speaker. heh heh heh
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