This is topic Dogs running with coyotes in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000113
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 19, 2003, 06:48 PM:
Tom Moore (22-250)told me a couple of weeks ago that he had called in a medium size black and white dog that came in with a coyote. The coyote hung back while the dog approached and sniffed the speaker, hiked his leg and departed with the coyote. Anyone else observed coyotes and dogs hunting/running together?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 19, 2003, 07:23 PM:
Rich Higgins,
I once killed a coyote that followed a black domestic dog in to my calls, but never gave it much thought. There were a lot of stray dogs running around in that area anyway, and I have seen plenty of evidence that coyotes often show no fear of domestic dogs. Not unless they are being chased by hunting dogs anyway. I have never seen any coyotes actually running with domestic dogs or hunting with them though.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 19, 2003, 07:37 PM:
Well then,this is what makes these boards so invaluable to everyone. I have always believed [assumed]solely as a result of my own thinking and not from any learned source,that coyotes would automatically kill any domestic dog, other than one so large that they couldn't ? Is this not the case ? Semms odd, that something so wild would mix with something so contaminated by humans. Live and learn,this is really interesting.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 19, 2003, 08:59 PM:
Coincidence in my opinion, dog and coyote may have come to the call at, or close to same time, but I doubt they were running together. I have never seen dogs running with coyotes in all my time in the field, nor have I ever heard from one of my associates that they witnessed such behavior. Will be interesting to see if anyone here has seen them run together.
~Az-Hunter~
---------------------------------
"Most coyotes come to the call, in spite of the little tricks we use, not because of them"
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on May 20, 2003, 03:48 PM:
Back in about 1975 when coyotes first came to middle TN.I watched a coyote and a german shepard run togather for several weeks.The shepard was a female.They were always close to cattle.I removed the problem.This was the only time I have seen a dog and a coyote run togather.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2003, 04:11 PM:
I have to second what AZ said. I have seen coyotes respond and dogs respond, and they have never shown the inclination to mix, or even to wander over and exchange sniffs. In most cases, neither seems interested in closing ground after the other is spotted, maybe assuming the other has a rabbit cornered?
In those cases, I have to pick my shot on the coyotes before they flare off. In most cases, neither appears to be intimidated by the other, more like a professional courtesy. The dogs lose interest sooner.
But I haven't seen them running together, ever.
And at least half of these sightings have not been feral dogs, they appear to be reservation mongrels, and they probably get fed every day?
Other places, if you can believe reports such as above, they do mix. Not from what I've seen?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by sporterweight (Member # 189) on May 20, 2003, 06:00 PM:
Rich H,
I've called in a couple of neighborhood dogs probably everybody has.I figured they just didn't have anything better to do.There was a thread on another board of wild dogs coming to the call and some of the "results" of that were very controversial.I did a search and was amazed at the info. on domesticated dogs running wild killing livestock and attacking people.
I read where a man his son and another man went calling. A pack of wild dogs came in fast,the son got scared -didn't know what to do,long story-short the men shot the dogs off boy.
Another story of a guy pulling up to his mothers house.She had been fighting off a pack of wild dogs with a garden hoe for many minutes.
Has anyone on here seen a dog come in,in an aggressive manner? Sporterweight
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 20, 2003, 07:17 PM:
The few dogs I've called in were obvious pets. Never seen a "wild" dog. One of the pets I called in a few years ago, I really think his owner must be a coyote caller. That dog KNEW what I was doing and seemed as intent on the stand as I was. He came straight in to the caller, circled it till he got my scent, followed it straight to me and laid down next to me, facing the caller. He'd watch the caller, then look at me with a good happy dog face, then back to watching the caller. Got a couple yappers on that stand, and he kept looking at me like "ain't ya gonna shoot them sumbitches?".
Wish I could have taken that dog home with me...
- DAA
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 20, 2003, 07:55 PM:
I can only recall one instance when dogs and coyotes were together. This was in the late '70's and we'd had reports from cattle people that they'd seen this pack on several occasions and a couple folks had lost some lambs and ewes that were just run and killed, nothing eaten. Well, long story less long, we have a phrase for dogs that run with coyotes - fair game. We just happened to run the whole bunch out of a stand of sand plums one morning - two coyotes and five blue heelers. The coyotes let the heelers take the point while they laid back. We pushed them down a half-mile line and across a mile road into the next section without putting too much pressure on them. All the while, we set up four guys at the opposite end of the section, two on each side of the half-mile line, in ambush. Back the trucks up about a quarter mile to give them some comfort room and waited. Short story even shorter, four guys with M-1's and those new-fangled Mini-14's let loose with a lead barrage that Eisenhower himself would have been proud of. One coyote survived the initial volley and ultimately got away on us. Only one fella in the entire area raised heelers and when word got back to him that heelers had been taken running with coyotes, he denied knowing anything about them or missing any dogs. I just hate having to do the number on domestic/ feral dogs. It just pets me wrong for some reason. But, in this area, I've seen very few actual coyote problems, whereas I can tell you all kinds of tales about dogs taking calves and lambs, then the coyotes getting the blame.
Posted by jerry (Member # 195) on May 20, 2003, 08:38 PM:
when i was a kid growing up im mississippi , we squirell hunted every day after school . one day we were way back into the woods . a group of 4 dogs ran after us and tried to attack us , there were only two of us , and we had 22 rifles with us , it got ugly. my friend was bitten twice and we killed two of the dogs . this was in the 70's, and he had to get rabies shots , i was so sorry for him . it was an awful ordeal for a kid to go thru . as for dogs running with coyotes, i have never seen this . i have removed several feral dogs from ranches usually packed up and causing alot of damage . they run horses right thru fences , and seem to kill just for the sport of it . this is especially true with sheep . Jerry .
Posted by BCOK (Member # 181) on May 21, 2003, 05:10 AM:
My veterinarian, who runs lots of cattle, and I were discussing coyotes recently. He told me that his neighbor's dog was running with coyotes. He witnessed it and told the neighbor. The neighbor didn't believe him until they saw it as well.
A little while back I was reserching to find anything I could about coyotes and found (don't remember where) information about coydogs. To have part coyote, part dog some "running" together would have to occur, wouldn't it?
BC
Posted by BillfMO (Member # 192) on May 21, 2003, 02:53 PM:
As to the question: Do dogs run with coyotes? The answer is YES. When you will see this the most is
in the spring breeding season. Off spring of this is your coy-dog which makes a smarter animal as they seem to have the knowlegde of humans like your own dog. Most of this is feral dogs but it can be your's or your neighbors house or working dog. If it is someones dog they will only run with them to breed and then go back home. While the feral dog will stay for a longer time. What is really bad for the farmer is the feral dog pack as they will do more damage to his livestock than coyotes. Feral dogs are also harder to kill again because they know man's ways and are no afraid of humans they will not run in most cases they will attack. A friend of mine was tracking what he thought to be a coyote in fluffy snow to jump to put hounds on. He walked into a grove of tree to find 6 wild dogs coming at him. Luckly he was a very good shot he killed or knocked down 4 and the other 2 run. The hunting group later hunted them down and killed them also. But they had to do it by tracking and jump shooting them as their hounds would not or could not run them.
[ May 21, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: BillfMO ]
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on May 21, 2003, 04:52 PM:
Interesting subject, I have to agree with Az-Hunter and Leonard. I have seen coyotes and dogs come to the call at the same time before and they don't pay to much attention to each other as stated. I have never seen a coydog that I know of, I'm not to sure what one would look like? but I have seen wild dogs and they can be bad news, Good Hunting.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 21, 2003, 05:00 PM:
Every now and then, I hear a story or two about coyotes crossbreeding with domestic dogs. If this sort of thing happens for real, I wonder why I have never seen any real proof. I have killed probably several hundred coyotes and more than a few feral dogs in my time. They all appeared to be either all dog or all coyote. My coyotes and my dogs have been taken in Kansas, nebraska, wyoming, south dakota, Iowa and texas. No sign of any so called coydogs. I guess that these coydogs must be sort of like flying saucers. Some folks see em, but I never have.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 21, 2003, 05:58 PM:
I have never seen a pic of one,and yet I hear of them quite often.Is it possible people use the phrase inappropriately to describe a feral dog ?
Where I grew up in Tennessee,there was very occasionally a pack of wild dogs running through the area wreaking havoc on pets,livestock,etc.Usually they were dealt with quite swiftly by some hunter who happened upon them.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 21, 2003, 06:44 PM:
Seldom,
Danny B once called and shot a two headed coyote once, or at least that is the rumor. I'm pretty sure it is true thlugh because Danny would not lie about something that important. Well maybe he would? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Sorry seldom, I don't mean to shrug off your question. We do have stray dogs running in packs in some area's near Omaha-Council Bluffs area, and they do kill livestock.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 21, 2003, 07:10 PM:
Hey no harm done here Rich, don't apologize. I have seen two headed animals at the circus,and I believe in retrospect I was once married to one.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 21, 2003, 07:12 PM:
Rich
This isn't the best quality picture since it's a digital pic on a cheap camera taken of a TV monitor with the pic from a VHS tape paused, but it pretty clearly demonstrates what is, to me, pure coydog. It was posted on PM some time back, too. In fact, this one carried all the hair patterns and colors of a coyote, with all the structural features of a coyote. He was unusually docile and sat there panting at us until he was put down. We caught his sire within two hundred yards of this same point several days later - a black and white Husky that had been running feral in the region for the better part of a year. I've seen several others but this is the only one I have a picture of.
[ May 21, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2003, 08:43 PM:
I have been at this game for a spell, and have always heard about coydogs or so called wolf genes in coyote or some sort of bastard animal.
And, actually, I have regarded the claims much like those about flying saucers, or little green men. Not too believable. Especially since they always seem to originate back east where they don't know, and haven't a lot of experience with coyotes, in general.
So, this subject came up a while back, and I will relate what I said then, because it made me stop and think.
I think I know what a coyote looks like. I know how they act. A few years ago, I killed a coyote that looked 100% coyote, except when his tongue hung out. It was coal black, exactly like a chow, (dog breed) and his whole mouth was black. I have never seen anything like it before.
Then, when I was on that Tom Mix Hunt a couple years ago, I killed an animal that looked like a real leggy coyote with a summer coat. Don't forget, it was in January, and it snowed that morning; it was cold. He weighed over 44 pounds, and was very long, for a coyote.
I have a four inch suspension lift on my truck, and I stood on the open door, propped my elbows on the top of the door as I held the scale, with the hook in the hock, and I just barely was able to keep his front paws from dragging in the dirt.
But, this animal acted exactly like a coyote, and his color was perfectly coyote, it was just shorter fur; by quite a lot.
The only other thing was that his ears were larger than normal, errect, but they were black. I've still got them in my freezer.
So, those are the facts, draw your own conclusions.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 21, 2003, 09:03 PM:
Cdogg,
That blurry picture as proof reminds me of all those fuzzy and out of focus pictures of the Lochness Monster and Sasquach. LOL ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 21, 2003, 09:25 PM:
The coyote is capable of breeding with both domestic dogs and wolves and the resultant whelps are fertile. The New England coyote has been proven to carry wolf DNA, and the redwolf,canis rufus, carries coyote DNA. H.T. Gier, in his book "Coyotes in Kansas" reports to have successfully bred 22 litters of coyote/domestic dog(coydog) hybrids in the laboratory. New Hampshire biologists Walter and Hellenette Silver, conducting research on wild canine hybridization succeeded in breeding 80 assorted canines from coyotes from Co., Wi., and N.H. and domestic dogs. Both Gier and the Silvers report that the hybrid coydogs, like the coyote but unlike the dog were mon-estrus. However the hybrids came into heat 3-4 months earlier than the coyote and the pups were whelped in the middle of the winter. The male hybrid, like the dog, did not assist in rearing the pups. It was concluded that the female hybrid would generally be unsuccessful in nursing and feeding herself and the litter by herself during the winter months. Hope Ryden, in her book "God's Dog" shows a photo of a coyote/black lab cross. A domestic dog will screw anything with a heartbeat and most things without. It is the coyote that is selective. Biologists have found that during periods of population suppression or range expansion when suitable mates are unavailable, coyotes will sometimes lower their standards, kinda like closing time at the bar. This apparently does not occur in normal population densities, under normal conditions. Which is why I asked the original question after thinking about Tom's dog and coyote. Feral dogs are an entirely different subject. My BinL and I called in 2 medium sized dogs running with a coyote about 10 years ago in Rainbow Valley, Az. From an elevated stand we watched them come in from about 200 yards out and we then watched them for another 5 or 6 hundred yards as they departed, and they were definitely together.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2003, 09:01 AM:
Good stuff, Rich. Since you hunt very similiar area to what AZ, Danny and I hunt, I'm wondering if you have any supporting observations?
In other words, that event ten years ago, and the account by Tom, they should be worthy of note? And, more often, when dogs and coyotes both appear on a stand, the two groups do not mingle. Can you support that statement?
What I'm getting at, is that people form broad conclusions over small data. Coyotes breed with dogs. Coyotes hunt, and answer a call in the company of dogs. I'd like to put the reported incident in the proper perspective, that it's highly unusual.
Good hunting. LB
By the way, we need to explore this whole issue of DNA, and how it can, positively be identified as coming from one canine, or another. I'm skeptical.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 22, 2003, 09:44 AM:
Leonard, the proper perspective of the incident is indeed that it is highly unusual, for our area, and that is the point I tried to make along with the reason why it is unusual. Also why coydogs have not become a bastardized sub-species.Although that is the description and premise given by P.S.Gipson.of the evolution of canis rufus.Reports of coydogs are more common in areas of initial coyote incursion and less common in areas with stable populations, like our areas. There is a coydog at a house in the area of the desert we are moving to at the end of this month. When I have the time to knock on their door and talk to them I'll let you know how that one came about.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 22, 2003, 10:22 AM:
Leonard,if DNA says it's so,it's so.DNA can't lie.
DNA is a part of my field of work [albeit a small one because I'm not in research].
If DNA patterns lead to a certain conclusion,that is the conclusion,of that I'm certain.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 22, 2003, 12:25 PM:
I have read that even the common house dogs have some wolf DNA in them. Is this true? If so, does this prove that poodles interbreed with wolves?Hmmmm
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 22, 2003, 01:05 PM:
Rich,think of DNA as a giant tree.Each species has a common root,but many branches.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2003, 01:41 PM:
SE, don't be so sure. By the time they mash those strands and have a look, it can be a little like reading tea leaves. I agree with Rich Cronk. Of course, poodles have wolf DNA, so what? Separating wolf genes, chromasomes, or DNA from dog or coyote is a questionable science open to interpretation. If you don't believe it, watch dualing expert testimony in any courtroom.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 22, 2003, 02:45 PM:
Check out the credentials of some of the experts first! And remember that the defense never has the job the prosecution does,all the defense has to do is blow smoke and confuse with so called experts.
The problems you see in court arise because the experts aren't really experts. It has happened in this county and many others across the nation.For twenty some years one of the "expert" forensics pathologists in the area lied around the courtrooms of the state,collecting expert witness fees.Many times he never even did the testing he claimed he did,instead he fabricated it,falsely sending innocent people to jail. Instances like that all over the US doesn't help the credibility of the real experts.
Only certain parts of it are a questionable science, certainly the particular DNA that identifies many species is no longer in question at all.
I see where you're coming from, and while I agree with how controversial courtrooms make it appear,I can assure you that's really not the case. If it were, stem cell research and cloning would not be as advanced as it is today.
Just think,someday scientists may clone a "super-coyote" able to reach the speed of a jaguar and smell you from 10 miles away!
Personally I am against a lot of things they are doing with DNA and cloning,some things are better left to God.But it is a much more exact science than courtrooms seem to make it appear.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 22, 2003, 04:15 PM:
Seldom,
Checking the credentials of the "expert witness" is somewhat important, but even more important is checking to see who is PAYING said expert. A paid witness is going to say what you pay him to say. LOL Now I ain't picking on you Seldom. Jacking with you a little bit? Yes, but not PICKING on ya. I'm not saying that coyote cross breeding is not possible, just said I ain't never seen any real proof yet. I ain't never seen a two headed coyote either but I know that Danny shot one because he said so. There ya go Seldom, top that one if you can.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 22, 2003, 04:23 PM:
Not trying to top anything here Rich, just having a good time conversing with all of you,and you are dead on the money with the paying thing,too! Keep it coming and thanks for the chuckles!
I wasn't debating that coyotes and dogs could crossbreed though,I was debating that DNA research is far enough along that it can be used as a tool to conclusively prove it, one way or the other. First you have to find the pudding,in this case a coydog, before you can present the proof.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2003, 06:42 PM:
The one thing I believe about crossbreeding is in the case of red wolf and coyote. The red wolf may have been absorbed as a species in most of it's range because they are such a close relative to the coyote. I've seen them, they just look like nice size coyotes. The color is consistant with desert coyotes. Makes sense to me.
But, SE. When you think about the effort to map the entire human genome, and it still isn't complete. Do you think that anybody has funded a complete study of canines to the extent needed to prove the relationship?
For instance, I can see some psudeo-scientist attempting to locate African DNA in my background. Exact science or not, I bet the results would be inconclusive enough that our p-s would testify to it in court. I can hear him explaining that (for sure) there is some african DNA in my genetic makeup.
On the other hand, there is a lot to be said for acute visual observation. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that I'm a rather common and fair skinned northern european.
I have the same attitude about people swearing on a stack of bibles that the coyotes in New England have wolf DNA. Yes, I'm still skeptical.
Good hunting. LB
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 23, 2003, 01:04 AM:
Those are thought provoking questions Leonard !
It was all I could do not to start in on the African heritage thing,I'm a lot like Rich,I love to pick .
I think in certain species there are complete genetic maps already reserached and in place, the dog would most definitely be one of them, as would the frog.In that case, it's only a small step to the coyote. But this is conjecture, I've not read it.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 23, 2003, 03:46 AM:
Seldom.
Yes!! Dogs and frogs, that's it. I just saw my neighbor's dog running with a frog yesterday.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 23, 2003, 08:27 AM:
Dang, before you know it,there'll be black coated coyfrogs everywhere!
Rich Higgins, chime in here and back me up here anytime old buddy!!
[ May 23, 2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 23, 2003, 10:20 AM:
Sorry Seldom, you're on your own buddy. When Rich Cronk heads off on a flying saucer, poodles-wolves, and frogs-dogs tangent, you just give him his head and let him run himself out. Leonards comments regarding the accuracy of DNA testing are interesting though. I thought test results were certain. When announcing the results in a paternity case on the news some time back, I remember the lab tech stating the results were positive to degree of something like 2 billion to one?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 23, 2003, 10:54 AM:
Although a healthy sense of skepticism is always a good thing, I don't subscribe to the belief that all DNA research is "iffy" and subject to the whims of fat cat scientists living out of the back pocket of some anonymous special interest group any more than I go for the rantings of the black helicopter crowd. For the life of me, I cannot come up with a selfish and self-serving reason for confirming the ability of coyotes to interbreed with domestic dogs, unless the coyotes themselves took up a collection and paid off our geneticists to go public with the claim so they can expand their horizons and possibilities for the occasional coyote bootie call when "familiar" falls short of "strange". The "UFO" pic I offered is a far cry from the actual video itself and I may have to dub it onto my next video offering to Rich Higgins so he can see a real live coydog for himself and back me up. On video, there's no question. I also recall one instance where I was calling Russell COunty, Kansas, and was forewarned not to shoot the white coyotes. A group of four coyotes were well known as was their daddy, a big white german shepard. Anyway, I called one in and it was as white as the background of the "page" you're now viewing. In every other way, it was a coyote. And no, I didn't shoot. Local people considered them off limits and had I shot one, I'd probably not made it home in one piece. The truth is out there and it's running around on four legs and eating bunnies.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 23, 2003, 11:46 AM:
Rich H.,CDog,you are right on the money,DNA does not lie.I know that because I have to study and use some test methodologies [ever hear of Polymerase chain reactions on TV or the news?]which involve DNA replication. But the average layman doesn't know it, and you're hard put to convince them for the very reasons Leonard has mentioned, which would cause even Old St. Peter to be skeptical!
Nowadays scientists can take the tiniest fragment of anything, say for example a microscopic piece of freshly thawed mammoth hide, and through the use of "cookbook chemistry" they can cause it to be replicated over and over.They do this for many reasons, one of which is obviously so they'll have plenty of specimen to work with.
If Biologists start to tell me dogs and coyotes are interbreeding and they have genetic evidence,I'll believe them.
One more point I'd like to make based on something Leonard mentioned. He expressed skepticism at the accuracy of the testing. There is some room for human error occasionally I think, simply because dogs and coyotes are so similiar,for example.It'd be easy to get your DNA strands mixed up:^).
I remember several years ago there was an article or two in various outdoors publication type places [magazines and the Internet] about Mallard ducks and Black ducks interbreeding. I know this really horrified me, because I saw the combining of two distinct types into one,and I have always felt the black duck was much more wary and clever than the mallard.There was a brief flurry of writing on the subject,with DNA evidence,etc., presented, and since that time total silence on the subject.I suspect the reason all the furor subsided so quickly is because a human mistake led to some erroneous conclusions,and everyone retired in embarrassment.
CDog,interesting, the white dog story. Someone should have at least live trapped one of the pups and taken blood samples. It might have made them rich, who knows ?
[ May 23, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 23, 2003, 12:31 PM:
One of my daughters has a ghost in her house. She knows this for a fact because she saw it. Lance knows that there is a white coydog out there because HE saw it. I know that my neighbor's dog runs with a frog too. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 23, 2003, 12:50 PM:
I think you should too,Rich!
Say, I own some beachfront property in Arizona you might be interested in.....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2003, 03:43 PM:
Okaay, if I show my ignorance, I can live with it. OJ trial: they get a MATCH on DNA between blood samples left at the scene, and another sample, provided by the killer. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Prosecution testimony says it's about a two billion to one chance that the blood comes from OJ Simson....
This stuff is easy, MATCHING identical DNA, but happily, Johnny Cochran finds twelve idiots that refuse to believe the "evidence".
When we start comparing coyote and dog and/or wolf, there is not a perfect MATCH. As I recall, humans and the common housefly share about 95% of the same DNA. Chew on that for a bit.
Now, look me straight in the face and tell me that you can detect a small strand of similiar DNA that points conclusively to half breed, or quarter breed coyotes as parent; considering that dogs themselves have a hopelessly jumbled heritage.
So, if the two species can interbreed, and it seems that they can, in fact; then the genetic makeup must be pretty close, to start with.
So, where are we going to find the irrefutable proof lurking somewhere in several million pairs of code? A smoking gun that could come from no other source? I'm sorry, I do not think that both species have been mapped to the degree necessary to prove it scientifically. I wonder if they have isolated the address in the double helix that flags the animal as not being 100% mutt?
However, I'd sooner trust my eyes. I believe the white coyote story; that isn't the question. It's the scientific claim that supports the theory, that I question. (I'd have made a good OJ juror, I know)
Besides, as I've said before, science has made a fool of the citizenry many times in the past. I may soon renounce my membership in the Flat Earth Society.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 23, 2003, 04:05 PM:
Seldom,
I think that I am starting to get really upset now. I blame it all on you, Rich Higgins and Lance the writer. You guys know that me and Leonard are right about this coyote-dog-frog stuff and you just won't admit it. There is this thing that I turn in to when I get really PO,d. I turn in to a real monster, and that is a fact. It is starting to happen right now again. Awwrrrgggg!!!!
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 23, 2003, 04:22 PM:
Dang Rich,there's nasty,and then there is shagnasty, that is plumb tee-totally shagnasty.
That feller has either spent a large part of his life in prison ,or he's got elephant blood in him. As a matter of fact,he could be the missing link between mankind and the elephant man,and the reason for the existence of the "white elephant" I occasionally hear women talking about...
Leonard, we hold opposing views,no big deal.Enough money in this world can buy you anything,including innocence where there is none.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 23, 2003, 07:00 PM:
All right, Rich! Cool! You are walking, talking verification of Darwinian Adaptation. You've been straining your hearing to it's limits for so long that your ears rose to the occassion. They are further proof that bigger is not neccessarily better. I listened to the bark and howling wave files on your site today and it still sounds like Daffy the Duck getting run over by a firetruck. heh heh. Leonard you obviously know a great deal more about DNA matching than I do so try to explain to me, in terms that I can understand, how DNA testing is accurate enough to positively confirm the guilt or innoccence of deathrow inmates( the state is not willing to let those guys go free and expose itself to the inevitable lawsuit and huge settlement except when confronted with irrefutable proof, a very high standard which they obviously consider DNA testing to meet,)yet is not accurate enough to identify a seperate species? Inquiring minds.
[ May 23, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 23, 2003, 07:27 PM:
I guess Leonard and I subscribe to opposite philosophies regarding issues like interbreeding between coyotes and dogs. Leonard, on one hand, has never seen anything he thought looked like the merger between C. latrans and C. domesticus, so his fortress is built around the firm beleif that it doesn't happen, ergo, prove to him that it does. I, at the other end of the scale, have seen several critters that bore striking resemblances to both species - comparably similar to the phenotypical expression of my daughter showing her mother's beauty, cheek bones, and eyes, with my hair color, and until recently, my belly. I'm fairly certain that she's half me, half mom, and we can see both of us in her looks. I've seen half-breeds - even owned a thoroughbred coydog as a kid since the dam's owner found her locked up with a dog coyote - and in many cases, it's very easy to see both strains showing. My position is one that since I've seen it, and I know they exist, then someone is going to have to prove to me that they don't. Using the same DNA testing that some demand I offer as evidence that interbreeding occurs, I request that they show me that they don't. In that sense, until both of us are experts in DNA technology or until we can split the cost of the testing, we're at an impasse. Especially since all I have to go on is subjective opinion and anecdotal observation, same as Leonard. Dang! All this arguing and all we did was made four left turns!
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on May 23, 2003, 09:07 PM:
Most people view a fingerprint at a crime scene as solid evidence that the person matching that fingerprint was at the scene of the crime. That's commonly understood in society. When you start dealing with DNA, we are told that it is positive evidence but unless you understand DNA and learned about it, you are at the mercy of someone else telling you that it is positive evidence.
It certainly must be to release death row inmates but a lot of people do not understand it and I am one of them.
It would be a lot easier for someone to convince me that DNA was not solid evidence than it would be to convince me that a fingerprint was not solid evidence because I don't understand DNA. I learned about finger prints at a young age and nobody ever provided any proof to the contrary THAT I AM AWARE OF.
With DNA, I am just taking someone else's word that it is positive evidence and it probably is but I never learned that. That's probably the same reason that O.J. is a free man. Not everyone understands DNA.
As far as the original question, Like Az I have not seen dogs running with coyotes and neither has anyone else that I have corresponded with. Does it happen? I am sure it does in some places. Nothing surprises me with coyotes considering the many other ways they have adapted to changing environments. I can't think of a better place for it to happen than on the reservations where you have dogs running everywhere.
As far as having seen dogs crossing with coyotes. I have only seen one case that I would say was a dog coyote cross. There were three of them killed in a small area and they were all light red colored, bleached out coyotes. Different enough in color that they were probably crossed. No difference in any other typical coyote chacteristics as far as skull, ears, legs, etc.
I also killed an extremely long legged, long eared coyote similar to what Leonard described. It looked as if it was crossed with a greyhound. No pack of hounds in the country could catch it. It would literally leap over tall fences like they weren't even there. It ended up killing sheep and was finally shot with an airplane. It stayed in wetland areas in flat open country. I wish I had a picture of this coyote as it was truly unique.
The only thing that I can see that has changed with coyote appearance in some areas is the change of the eye color. More and more coyotes are showing up IN SOME AREAS with brown eyes as opposed to yellow. This was pointed out by Slim Pedersen and now lots of people are starting to pay attention to it.
In southern states such as Alabama, they have black coyotes. Yellow eyes and coal black. Some claim they are dog hybrids. Don't know if it's that or a recessive gene such as a red angus in black angus cattle.
Recent inovations in the beef industry are mapping individual animals by both nose prints and eye mapping. The eye mapping is interesting and like a finger print. Again, you are at the mercy of someone telling you that no two are the same.
As far as Wolf DNA, I was told that all dogs have wolf DNA in their background somewhere. Don't know if that's true or not that's just what I heard.
Interesting information you provided Rich Higgins!
~SH~
[ May 23, 2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2003, 09:17 PM:
Wait a minute. I DO believe in coydogs! I didn't; but I stuck my finger in the wound, so to speak, and what could I do but go along with it.
My reservation, (such as it is) is the scientific proof.
First of all, MATCHING sperm with a deathrow inmate is straight forward. You don't have to figure anything out, except that the two samples are identical.
In the case of a COYDOG, you have coyote DNA, You have feral dog DNA. And, you have an animal that appears to be alike both species, and yet a bit different.
So, you have three things that you are supposed to compare, NONE OF THEM IDENTICAL. Well, guess what? The only thing they can honestly determine is that they aren't, none of them, identical.
Now it gets subjective, folks. I'm not blind, and I'm not a blockhead, but I'm damn subborn about conceding a point that has not been proved. You do not demonstrate ignorance when you question theory. Rather, you have put the pressure on the lab boys to "show me the money".
You cannot win an argument by laughing at the dimwit that doesn't take your (half baked) data as truth. DNA is simply a buzz word. You run it up the flagpole, and everybody salutes it.
Oh yeah, there is "coyote" DNA in that animal, says the "expert". There may well be, but they are just guessing, like the rest of us.
Occasionally, we find that a scientist, here and there, is not wearing any clothes.
All I'm saying is that I do not blindly accept "expert" testimony. I remember one recent case where there was suspicion of foul play, and some blood was analyzed, and later found to be animal blood. Furthermore, they were not able to determine what animal the blood came from? It's my understanding that you can extract DNA from hair, saliva, as well as blood, sweat and tears.
If they cannot determine species of animal from DNA derived from a blood sample, it seems to me that they have a ways to go before I'm on board with their educated guesses.
Good hunting. LB
edit: Hey! Is that you, Scott? I talked to R. Higgins yesterday, and your name poped up, as in, where have you been lately?
[ May 23, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2003, 09:35 PM:
Which reminds me. We discussed this topic, me and Rich.
I remember speculating on WHY a coyote would associate with a dog? Or, why would a dog run with coyotes, or breed with one?
What if a coyote pup was run off the territory, and made friends with a stray dog? My guess is that it probably happens with young animals that don't know the difference. A lost dog with a collar might associate with other canines, since they both have a pack instinct.
Other than that, I can't explain it. Who wants to give it a try?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 24, 2003, 04:33 AM:
Ok since Wiley E is over here watching and observing, I guess that I will have to get somewhat serious for at least this one post. Let us take the case of that White German Shepherd that is supposedly the biological father of all of those white coyotes. If you draw some blood from the alleged father, and also draw blood from his alleged offspring then I believe DNA testing could probably detrmine whether or not the Shepherd is indeed the father. Do I believe that it is possible for dogs to interbreed with coyotes? Yes I do. If it does happen, it must be extremely rare though.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on May 24, 2003, 05:27 AM:
Leonard: "You do not demonstrate ignorance when you question theory. Rather, you have put the pressure on the lab boys to "show me the money"."
Leonard: "All I'm saying is that I do not blindly accept "expert" testimony."
AMEN TO THAT!
Recently saw National Parks employees use a scientific turd counting study to determine that they had 11 coyotes per square mile. Amazing! We have aerial hunted large blocks of "OPEN" land surrounding this same park on full snow cover and it always comes back to about 2 coyotes per 4 square miles IN THE SPRING. Had a chance to do some locating within the park and the territories were spaced out just as they are outside the park.
The point, scientific proof is not scientific proof until it's been proven. Sadly, some of it is viewed as scientific proof until it's disproven.
Same logic applies to theories on coyotes and coyote vocalizations that cannot easily be DISproven.
Leonard: "What if a coyote pup was run off the territory, and made friends with a stray dog? My guess is that it probably happens with young animals that don't know the difference. A lost dog with a collar might associate with other canines, since they both have a pack instinct."
That's exactly what I believe Leonard. In normal situations, it's extremely rare.
If someone turned loose a coyote pup that was raised in captivity, you have a different critter that "MAY" be more capable of breeding with a dog.
As with dog/wolf crosses, the question remains which wolf instinct is stronger, the instinct to breed a dog or the instinct to kill a dog?
When theories cannot be easily disproven, everyone's theory has merit.
~SH~
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 24, 2003, 05:47 AM:
Rich, I think if you go back to Rich H's first post regarding this,or one close to the first,you'll see that he stated from the git go that coyotes only breed with dogs when they are left with little choice,according to the source he was quoting, at least.
Leonard, hell yes,right on,I agree with you 100%, the ignorant man is one who doesn't question anything but takes it as Gospel just because it was written or said.
Let me try to expound upon the DNA question a little bit, not that I am by any means an expert,the experts are those weird guys doing the research [and believe me when I tell you, those extremely intelligent guys have some really odd quirks].
Somebody,I believe it was Wiley E, mentioned recessive genetics when he was speaking of coyotes and dogs,and he mentioned eye color and coat color as well. In order for a gene [which is nothing more than a large strand of DNA with dominant and recessive alleles at different loci along it's length] to be recessive, there has to be a dominant gene as well. This is how scientists can take a "coydog" [purely as a hypothetical example]and determine what type of animal it's parents were.They know ahead of time, through research,which genes are dominant and recessive in dogs,and which are dominant and recessive in coyotes. They can plot out, or predict,all the possible genetic combinations the breeding of a dog with a coyote will produce.
As an example,with blood types, if a type AB person has a kid with a type AB person, there are 4 possible bloodtype combos for the kid.They are AA,AB,BB,and AB.Draw a 4 square board and put AB on one axis and BB on the other,and you'll see what I'm getting at.There is a 25% chance that the kid will be type AA,a 25% chance that the kid will be type BB,and a 50% chance that the kid will be type AB.This is the kind of thing they use to determine parentage,etc., only in much greeater detail than I've gone into here.
Leonard,in the example you use with the animal blood, I'll bet they know the sex of the animal and a lot of other things, and it's hard for me to believe they don't really know what animal it was, I am questioning your information on that ?Maybe they are withholding that information as a way of catching the killer ? Remember there are thousands of animals out there, each with it's own specific "special" [as in specie-al]DNA, sometimes it takes time to match it up,but I'll bet they are just withholding that information from the public.
The example of the fingerprints was a good one, and I'd like to add that it is DNA,and nothing else, that gives rise to the FACT that each of us has our own unique set of fingerprints.
[ May 24, 2003, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 24, 2003, 06:46 AM:
Seldom,
Assuming that all of your information regarding DNA is correct. Since dogs have wolf DNA, wolves must have DOG DNA also. If dogs and wolves carry some of the same DNA, then coyotes probably have some wolf DNA also and etc. Now if you don't have DNA sample from alleged Father and DNA from alleged offspring, then how in heck are you going to really prove anything that we don't already know?
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 24, 2003, 07:20 AM:
Rich,look up the definition of coyote in Webster's dictionary, and then talk to me about wolves and coyotes again . I believe the definition begins- coyote: a small wolf....
Bet you guys didn't know you were actually hunting small wolves,did you ?
Dogs "descended" from wolves,wolves did not descend from dogs.How do we know this ? Just guessing I'd say it was by figuring out the genetic structure of unearthed early wolves.But that is all conjecture on my part,I'm not a nationally recognized authority on DNA,least of all the DNA of coyotes or wolves.You guys have a heavier word than I do on the subject of coyotes and wolves,I'm just a neophyte with a yearning to hunt them and learn as much as I can about them from you all.But I do know a little bit about genetics and DNA.
How do we prove that a "coydog" is in fact a "coydog" without the coydog or at least one of it's parents ? Hell Rich,you can't prove a monkey is a monkey, until you have what you think is a monkey, in front of you,to work with.If you've got no sample from which to collect DNA from, then you have no hypothesis for your question as to whether coydogs exist or not, other than your imagination or reported sightings.Most definitely, CDog or whoever it was that saw the white shepherd and the white coyotes, should have notified local biologists of the potential wealth of information available in that area.
However,I'm fairly certain Rich H's original post said that scientists had already studied some coydogs,thus recognizing there legitimate existence ?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 24, 2003, 08:11 AM:
I ran a search on hybrid animals. One site has photos of a coyote-Irish Setter cross, a wolf-German Shepherd cross and a coyote-Red Wolf cross.Unless this site is part of a vast, right-wing conspiracy designed to boggle your minds, the photos may be proof of a sort that coyotes can be a little slutty at times. Other sites have photos of whale-dolphin crosses, large cat crosses-lion-tiger, puma-leopard etc. Horse-donkey=mule. Cow-buffalo=beefalo etc. Whether or not DNA testing is accurate enough to confirm the existance of these animals I can't say, and if Rich Cronk has never personally observed them they probably do not exist. heh heh.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 24, 2003, 08:25 AM:
Seldom,
You are partly correct of course. Now once we have proved that we do indeed have a monkey in front of us, wouldn't we have to have his alleged daddy to collect DNA from before we could really prove that said monkey isn't a very close kin of Rich Higgins? But then we would have to get a DNA sample from Higgins. HEH HEH
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2003, 09:13 AM:
quote:
However,I'm fairly certain Rich H's original post said that scientists had already studied some coydogs,thus recognizing there legitimate existence ?
See, this is the typical mindset we are dealing with here.
I don't need a scientist to confirm what I see with my own eyes.
But, they throw some techo-garble at you and this is to be taken as beyond reproach.
I understand a little genetics, whether you use blood type or resessive eye color, or rows of corn on a cob. Genetic engineering is a subject of hot debate, especially in Europe.
But, inserting a pigfat gene into grape DNA is a whole different process than plotting out that whole series of code that makes all of us unique.
I believe Rich Cronk is correct to say that the wolf has dog DNA and the dog has wolf DNA. It sounds inaccurate, to put it that way, but it has to be true, if we are talking about specific identifiable strands of code.
Then SE tells us (stop the presses!)
we are dealing with a "little wolf" and we see that all canines are related, more or less.
That's exactly why I have a hard time accepting the ironclad statement that some scientist has wasted his time, and our money, attempting to prove that "a coydog has coyote DNA".
One of the biggest flaws in the process is when they attempt to prove a hypothesis without a controlled study. The scientist that believes he has a "coydog" will reach different conclusions than the skeptical scientist, unless they adhere strictly, to the scientific method. And this, of course would include other unknown samples and with those samples, they might just as easily "prove" that a control sample of coyote has dog DNA. At least, that's the way I see sloppy research as a matter of fact. Jumping to conclusions is just as tempting for these scientists as it is among we common folk.
I feel the need to restate this in a different way. Comparing apple DNA with another apple, especially from the same tree, is an understood process. The same holds true for oranges. It is when they attempt to find apple DNA in an orange or orange DNA in an apple that I need to see the data before I accept their word, based on a biologists credentials, alone.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on May 24, 2003, 09:23 AM:
Rich Higgins here's another status report you might find interesting on that dna thing.
status report 9/13-9/20/2002
http://westerngraywolf.fws.gov/
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 24, 2003, 10:16 AM:
Leonard, I never said Rich H's quotes from the book he read were gospel,I only said that early in this topic of current debate Rich H quoted from a book he had been reading, in which it was mentioned that they actually bred X number of pairs of dog and coyote.
Of course that doesn't mean it's true,and you're right again, there study could be full of holes because there control groups sucked,etc.Hell,there DNA expert could be some retard with false credentials, it sure has happened enough in courtrooms.
But that doesn't change the one FACT that I believe,and you don't.And that is that DNA science is an exact enough science to determine whether or not a coydog, who is present to provide the tissue required for DNA samples,in whatever form,is descended as a purebred species or a mixture as a result of the breeding of a dog with a coyote.
I didn't write the definition in Websters, I merely pointed it out to you, because Webster's is considered a reasonably respectable authority on the definition of words. If you wish to question there believability,that is your right and your perogative.
[ May 24, 2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2003, 10:32 AM:
Don't take it personal, SE. I'm not picking on you, and I believe a lot of the data. I found some interesting things in the Times this morning that have a strong support for some of the things I have written. I'm going to see if I can pull them up and post them? Stay tuned. LB
edited fo a typo
[ May 24, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2003, 10:53 AM:
May 24, 2003 E-mail story Print
SCIENCE FILE
Boxer Will Lead Pack in Genome Project
Sequencing will help scientists analyze other dogs and may shed light on human diseases.
Times Headlines
By Rosie Mestel, Times Staff Writer
The competition was stiff, but the winner is now in: A female boxer named Tasha has been chosen out of 120 candidate dogs to be the model for the sequencing of the dog genome, scientists announced this week.
Tasha was selected for practical reasons. Boxers have less variable genomes than other breeds and their genetic information is more easily assembled, said Kerstin Lindblad-Toh, lead researcher for the dog genome project.
The sequencing will be conducted at the Whitehead Institute/MIT Center for Genome Research in Cambridge, Mass., and is scheduled for completion in 2004.
Once Tasha's sequence is done, it will be relatively easy to analyze genomes from a wide range of dog breeds, Lindblad-Toh added. That will help scientists tackle all kinds of interesting questions, such as why mastiffs grow so much larger than Chihuahuas or why retrievers often have creaky hips.
"Sequencing man's best friend is kind of cool, but I think we will also learn a lot about disease," Lindblad-Toh said.
Because of inbreeding, many dog breeds have high rates of conditions such as blindness and deafness. Finding the genes responsible could shed light on the same problems in humans.
Scientists also said this week that they are close to completing a draft of the chimp genome and that a honeybee draft is expected in mid-July.
The sea urchin, too, is coming along nicely, with a draft expected by the fall. A chicken draft should be done by early 2004.
10:51 PM PDT, May 19, 2003 E-mail story Print
Chimps May Have Closer Links to Humans
AP Headlines
By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON -- It may be time to move over and share the human branch of the family tree with chimpanzees, says a researcher who has studied how closely the two are related.
Humans and chimps share 99.4 percent of DNA -- genetic code for life -- according to a team led by Morris Goodman of the Wayne State University School of Medicine.
"We humans appear as only slightly remodeled chimpanzee-like apes," said Goodman.
The study, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, proposes that chimps be added to the genus Homo, currently reserved only for humans.
It's an idea sure to spark renewed debate about evolution and humanity's relationship with animals.
The battle over whether humans are related to chimps, gorillas and other primates has raged since 1859, when Charles Darwin described evolution in "Origin of Species."
The dispute between religious and scientific factions got its greatest notoriety in 1925 when Tennessee school teacher John Scopes was convicted of teaching evolution.
It continues to this day. Kansas reinstated the teaching of evolution 18 months after the state school board voted to drop it from classes. Alabama's school board voted to put stickers on biology books warning that evolution is controversial.
Goodman's team did not address evolution directly but proposed that humans and chimps be considered branches of the same genus because of their similarities.
A genus is a group of closely related species. The human species, Homo sapiens, stands alone in the genus Homo. But there have been other species on the branch in the past, such as Homo neanderthalensis, or Neanderthal man.
Chimpanzees are in the genus Pan, along with bonobos, or pygmy chimpanzees.
Goodman's proposal would establish three species under Homo. One would be Homo (Homo) sapiens, or humans; the second would be Homo (Pan) troglodytes, or common chimpanzees, and the third would be Homo (Pan) paniscus, or bonobo chimpanzees.
There is no official board in charge of placing animals in their various genera, and in some cases alternative classifications are available.
"If enough people get agitated by this and think it's something to be dealt with, there may be a symposium that takes this as the central issue and determines if this is a reasonable proposal," Goodman said. "I think it's a reasonable proposal, of course, or I wouldn't have proposed it."
Richard Sherwood, an anthropologist at the University of Wisconsin, isn't so sure.
That chimps and humans are closely related and share a common ancestor about 7 million years ago is well known, Sherwood said, but that doesn't mean they belong in the same genus now.
Goodman's paper cites a proposal by George Gaylord Simpson that chimps and gorillas be combined in one genus; gorillas are in the genus Gorilla. Goodman says chimps are more closely related to humans than to gorillas and thus should be added instead to Homo.
Sherwood says Simpson made his chimp-gorilla proposal in 1963, and no one is arguing today to put both species in the same genus.
"To go hunting for an historical reference like that and then use it as the sole criteria for suggesting a major shift in primate systematics is difficult to take seriously," Sherwood said.
Reclassification of chimpanzees would cause major changes in the way anthropology students learn the relationships among various types of animals.
In their study, Goodman and colleagues compared 97 genes from humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, Old World monkeys and mice.
Genes from humans and chimps most closely resembled each other, followed by orangutans and Old World monkeys. None of the other creatures was closely related to mice.
Tracking mutation rates in the genes, the scientists estimate that the common ancestor of chimps and humans diverged from gorillas about 7 million years ago, and then separated into two species between 5 million and 6 million years ago.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 24, 2003, 11:16 AM:
Leonard, at no time have I taken it personally, it's been fun discussing it .If there were no differing opinions on these forums,they'd be no fun.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2003, 11:49 AM:
Two things:
First:
The sequencing will be conducted at the Whitehead Institute/MIT Center for Genome Research in Cambridge, Mass., and is scheduled for completion in 2004.
(all this speculation is a bit premature, I'd say)
Second:
Humans and chimps share 99.4 percent of DNA -- genetic code for life -- according to a team led by Morris Goodman of the Wayne State University School of Medicine.
(that leaves 0.6%, but a world of difference in that amount of DNA)
Now, in the case of coyotes and dogs and cross-breeding: Where are these statements of fact coming from, if the two animals are so closely related, (WAG 99%) and the study for just one animal won't be completed until some time next year?
I'm not saying I don't believe it. I'm saying that they definitely do not have the proof they have been tossing out to the public, as an article of faith. Get their ducks in a row.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 24, 2003, 11:56 AM:
Maybe they have been surmising, but stating it as fact? It kinda pisses me off, as I have always been taught that they had the dog,the frog,and the chimp down pat already.I mean,I was taught these things, I didn't just read them.
But maybe the article you're quoting is mistaken in some areas as well ?
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on May 24, 2003, 02:59 PM:
So....do dogs run with coyotes? LOL.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 24, 2003, 03:17 PM:
heh-heh-heh Good one,thanks for the chuckle
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2003, 04:19 PM:
That's Danny. I know because of the .
But he's right, where does all this tie in to dogs running with coyotes. I still haven't seen it?
Let's see, at least Wiley, AZ, Rich Cronk, Danny (onecoyote), and LB that have never seen a dog actually running with coyotes.
Several others have either seen it for themselves, or were told about it.
However, that's a pile of experience in the first group that have to say no to the question. That doesn't mean that the second group is mistaken. What it says to me is that's it's rare; very rare.
Good hunting. LB
[ May 24, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 25, 2003, 06:26 AM:
What the hell. I'll throw one more remark on-topic about my area. Houses popping up on every quarter section. City folks moving to the country where their dogs can be free!!! Rare is the day I go out that I don't at least see "farm" dogs running around having a great time. And they're in areas I know coyotes live. So, the opportunities for coyotes and dogs to get all chummy are everywhere, but they don't seem to do so. To clarify, I have seen what I feel are hybrids, but they're rare. If the two were crossing, this place would be crawling with hybrids and a guy'd have a hard time finding a purebred coyote anywhere. What's a curisoity to me is the apparant tolerance by coyotes for dogs to run around in the light of day, but come nightfall, those same coyote run ol' Shep back to the house and won't let him off the porch.
Scott's remark about what it takes for a wolf's drive to befriend a dog can override his instinct to kill the same dog got me thinking. Testosterone can be a wonderful thing. I can see it now. Wolf running to attack intruding dog. Wolf thinking, "I'm gonna kick your as... huh? What's that smell? Ohhhhhh, baaaaabbbbyyyy!!! Oh, baby. Oh, baby. Yeeeeeeeeeessssss!!!!! Now, what was I gonna do?!?!" I can see it happening if a wolf in estrus was to encounter a willing dog, and show me a dog that wouldn't be willing.
Sometimes I think coyotes act like they do just to get us talking. Either that, or they don't know what they're doing either.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on May 25, 2003, 06:32 AM:
Leonard,
I heard recently that some of the chimp worshippers conducted a study with confined chimps that had access to computers.
One of the chimps sh*t on the keyboard and another typed out a bunch of ssssssssssss's.
Hahaha!
REALITY CHECK!
What did these researchers expect?
As if the chimps were going to log on to www.cowchips.com and come up with some important revolutionary ground breaking theory on why cow chips flip over in the pastures. Hehehe!
I still laugh about that Lance!
"IT'S THE WIND DUDE!"
~SH~
[ May 25, 2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on May 25, 2003, 06:59 AM:
Another thing that has to be taken into consideration with this topic is the difference between adult and juevenile animals. As animals get older, their natural territorial and survival instincts such as mating with their own kind and seeking out their own territory becomes stronger than their need for playful companions.
In other words, a coyote that runs with dogs as a juevenile will probably change it's behavior as an adult.
Lance: "Testosterone can be a wonderful thing. I can see it now. Wolf running to attack intruding dog. Wolf thinking, "I'm gonna kick your as... huh? What's that smell? Ohhhhhh, baaaaabbbbyyyy!!! Oh, baby. Oh, baby. Yeeeeeeeeeessssss!!!!! Now, what was I gonna do?!?!"
Sounds like a shampoo commercial!
Lance: "I can see it happening if a wolf in estrus was to encounter a willing dog, and show me a dog that wouldn't be willing."
Then explain this,
"so, the opportunities for coyotes and dogs to get all chummy are everywhere, but they don't seem to do so"
and,
"if the two were crossing, this place would be crawling with hybrids and a guy'd have a hard time finding a purebred coyote anywhere".
Exactly, so why would wolves be any different than coyotes when they are both canids?
Can't have it both ways Lance!
Which is the stronger instinct of the two? The instinct to breed or the instinct to kill?
As you have accurately pointed out with coyotes, the lack of hybrids should prove in most cases what wolves would do too. Consider also that wolves usually travel in packs and all the pack members may not have the same level of testosterone.
It's not like female canids in estrous are difficult for "LONE" males to find either.
I would say that our observations of a lack of hybrids are not lying to us.
Go with your first instinct.
~SH~
[ May 25, 2003, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2003, 11:27 AM:
quote:
I would say that our observations of a lack of hybrids are not lying to us.
(hey, this quoting stuff is addictive!)
....lack of hybrids, and lack of "Dogs running with coyotes".
However, as they say; the girls all get prettier at closing time.
(I, however, have no direct knowledge?)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 22-250 (Member # 36) on May 27, 2003, 10:54 PM:
Sorry, I have not been reading the board recently; preparing for a spring hunt for bears. My son, Glenn and I were hunting in El Centro three weekends ago. On one stand, called in one coyote, which came hard to the electronic caller. Glenn was downwind of the caller by 30 yards and I was crosswind some 100 yards. The coyote stopped short of the caller and Glenn could not see the coyote because of a small sand berm. The white and black dog came right behind the coyote. The dog ran pass the coyote and the coyote did not have any problem with the dog that close.
The dog when to the caller, did a couple of circles around the caller, Glenn barked at the dog to get his attention and the dog quickly did his thing and ran upwind with the coyote 20 or so yards behind. Neither the dog or coyote saw me.
We got a really big Mexican coyote near the border at El Centro. It weight 126 pounds by a electonic scale.
Somehow, I have a photo of a black coyote, I do not remember how I received it. Do not know if a black coyote is the result of a dog and coyote mix or can if happen to coyotes.
[ May 27, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: 22-250 ]
Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on May 28, 2003, 06:00 AM:
The subject of coydogs was hashed and rehashed on another forum in depth. I spent a lot of time researching the subject. Without taking the time to look up the sources again, the summary is this:
Yes, coydogs do exist.
But.....
Several factors come into play considering the increased development of a "race" of coydogs. The most important are:
1) coyotes, both male and female, come into season and are capable of breeding just once a year, in early spring.
2) female domestic dogs come into season every 2-3 times a year- depending on age and individual dog. Males are in season 24/7.
3) Coydogs inherit the once a year "season"- but by a strange quirk of fate- the timing changes- and female coydogs come into season in mid fall.
So- the above are facts. Look them up. Google is a good source.
(I forgot to add that since the female coydogs is bred in mid to late fall- she would be whelping her pups in the dead of winter. Raising such a litter by herself would again be almost impossible.)
You can easily see WHY coydogs, while fertile, seldom make the leap in rebreeding back to wild coyotes past the first "accidental breeding".
Another interesting point is that most studies on coydogs found that they occured primarily when the coyote was expanding his range into new areas. And that too makes perfect sense.
Another main factor to keep in mind is that rearing coyote pups successfully is a dual effort-most successful family groups consist of a mated pair raising the young. Coydogs males, at least according to all the research I have read, never have this trait of hunting for and caring for pups.
While the studies I have read may have differed on many things- all were consistent in the above conclusions and the following one:
While coydogs do exist, the chances of them remating are slim, and if bred the chances of rearing pups are even slimmer- and then the next generation would face the same odds.
So while a dog might run with a coyote occasionally here and there- 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of the coyotes out there are pure coyotes. The guy that tells you he traps more coydogs than "real" coyotes should be taken with a very small grain of salt.
To get any sort of dog percentage dna in yotes, you would have to have continous rebreeding, inbreeding if you will, among the coydogs and real coyotes- with fresh dog genes being introduced constantly, every 2-3 generations.
[ May 28, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: trappnman ]
Posted by randy moose merta (Member # 145) on May 28, 2003, 09:14 AM:
As a life long trapper I too have heard of the Coydog all of my life. However I have yet to see one myself. I know of some big time trappers here in the midwest that target coyotes. I will contact them to see if they have any information or pictures on the Coydog. I believe that there is Coydogs around but just have not seen any for myself. A good friend of mine JerryJoe Barnett should be able to put me on the trail of some photos and stories of the elusive coydog. randy
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on May 28, 2003, 09:52 AM:
Good post T'man!
Nice to see the myths busted with facts.
~SH~
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 28, 2003, 10:52 AM:
OK guys,
What the heck is that big gray and white critter that 22-250 is leaning over up there in his picture? It don't look like any coyote that I have ever seen. A feral dog maybe?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 28, 2003, 11:31 AM:
Well Rich, since it's only 126 lbs. maybe it's one of those Cheewaawaa kiyotees as Bill Martz calls them.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 28, 2003, 12:32 PM:
Call me a skeptic.....but that thing doesn't look like it has assumed room temperature, appears to be his grossly overweight spayed female husky lying by his side? As to the matter at hand, I think we can reasonably agree that, no, dogs do not run with coyotes, and coydogs are an urban myth, with the extremely rare documented case being the kicker. Just to many of us with countless hours in the field having never seen one. As an aside, has any Arizona fellas ever spotted an oppossum in Az? Thats yet another critter Ive never seen here, but have had a guy swear he has seen them in the southeastern mts of Az. Im a third generation Arizonan, who has been prowling the desert and surrounding mts. with first a bb gun then rifles since I can remember,and Ive never witnessed coydogs, black cats, mex wolves,spotted cats or opposums. I have to trust my eyes,logic and experience concerning these matters, and chalk some of these sightings up to a continuance of urban myth.
~Az-Hunter~
-------------------------
"Most coyotes act alike"
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 28, 2003, 12:36 PM:
If you want possums, we got'em here.I'll sell you some if you're interested, or trade some for some coyotes,your choice ?
Possums have been on the earth longer than any other living creature,if you can believe scientists
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 28, 2003, 01:36 PM:
Az-Hunter,
You are probably correct about that thing being a spayed Husky. I was thinking maybe a cross between a Husky and a fat sheep. You have never seen a possom? Just think of Jay Nistetter with a grin, and that be what a possom looks like.
Rich Higgins,
I don't know what Bill M. would call that thing, but chances are that he would be wrong again.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2003, 04:13 PM:
Since Tom may not notice the question, I heard through the grapevine that the pic is of his pet, 7/8ths wolf. Maybe the "Mexican" comment is in jest, as I think I was told that it is gray wolf? I don't know, though? Are gray wolves the exact same thing as Lobos?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 28, 2003, 04:39 PM:
Where's your sense of humor ,Guys? Tom sent me a similar photo some time ago and I asked him to post it here. Thought you guys would get a kick out of it also. BTW, it isn't a husky. And "grossly overweight"? Easy with the adjectives, Vic. I've seen photos of you.{insert smilie)As you wish, Vic, I'll call you a skeptic and you are mistaken in "I think we can reasonably agree that, no, dogs do not run with coyotes, and coydogs are an urban myth, with the extremely rare documented case being the kicker........ I have to trust my eyes, logic and experience concerning these matters, and chalk some of these sightings up to a continuance of urban myth". I don't know who the "we" is you refer to. It certainly isn't the several members here who have personally seen coyotes with dogs, black cats, and coydogs. As an aside, what is your take on the black coyote in the photo Tom posted? These may be an "urban myth" to a city slicker but they certainly are not rural myths. As to the spotted cats, Az Game and Fish felt it was neccessary to print in the Az G&F Regulations a caution that spotted cats are protected in the state of Arizona. I have personally never seen a melanistic phase of big cat, nor a jaguar or ocelot, nor an atom. It is possible to believe in the existance of some things without personally witnessing them. It's a big world out there outside of Sierra Vista.
Posted by 22-250 (Member # 36) on May 28, 2003, 05:52 PM:
The big coyote is actually by my pet wolf "Kila". She is eight years old and still keeps up with my wife and thoroughbred horse for a daily walk of two to three miles. Her walking stride is equal to the horse's walk stride. From that point of view, I can see how a wolf can easily travel a 10 to 15 miles and return to back to the point of origin in one night.
The wolf-dog breed does not act as a dog, they act as a wolf. They are very sly and always manage to sneak to the rear for their investigations of new people and other animals. Wonder how much dog traits are past along to a coyote?
For the dog and coyote portion of the post, that story is correct. I do not know if I should have shot the coyote to prevent the interbreeding aspects. Or should I have shot the dog? If I was in Utah or area that had sheep, I would have shot the dog. On that specific day, there were several factors that I choose not to shoot either one.
1. the trip was for my son to do some shooting,
2. it was really late in the season,
3. the area we were hunting was the desert next to large agricultural areas – no cattle or sheep in the area (also no houses in six or seven miles}
What are you thoughts if you saw a dog and a coyote together? Would you shoot? If so, which one first?
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on May 28, 2003, 06:06 PM:
I just clicked on to Coyotesareus.com.
Yall won't believe what those flea feeders are talking about. Most of the Coyotes agree that they have all seen a white man, A black man, And several have seen red men. Now the entire pack has one hemmed up against a ditch bank. Because he clams to have seen a yellow man.
The poor dog is posting DNA results, Quoting several internationally known scientist. And trying to post some pictures. He is losing fur faster than Purple's 220 can blow it off.
Now it has really hit the fan. They just found out one of the pack bread with a Quail.
Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on May 28, 2003, 06:39 PM:
The meaning of the black coyote is that it is a melanistic coyote- or simply put- a black coyote.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 28, 2003, 06:51 PM:
And the meaning of a white coyote that is not albino yet is pure white with no markings?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 28, 2003, 07:13 PM:
In my personal experience, it was a "No Hunting" sign. That black coyote pic looks to be a probable melanistic animal citing the darkness of the eyes. I was at a fur buyer's shop years ago when a guy brought in a black coyote. But it had finer fur with yellow tips and light colored eyes. The concensus then was coydog.
I think a lot of this debate should consider the local conditions. We have a LOT of dogs running loose and so, I'd be inclined to think that this creates opportunities. Having said that, I crossed the *** southwest of Cortez and found dogs running loose everywhere in an area I know has more coyotes than my township yet you fellas that live in the region say you just don't see them. You're secure enough in your observations that you don't even believe that they exist. I'll take you at your word.
The statements from earlier about the fact that hybrids enter estrus out of synch with coyotes and that this prevents next-generation breeding catches my eye. I find it hard to accept that this is a steadfast rule in hybrids when you consider the millions of genetic combinations that can occur in any cross breeding between the two. If this is, in fact, true, it would place the hybrid in estrus at such a time when coyotes are not, and when the dog or hybrid would (probably) be greeted with teeth and growls versus welcomed with open arms.
Looking at a union of the opposite aspect, female coyote and male dog, the possibility is there, but in most of nature, ultimate selection of a mate falls upon the female who must select for a mate that can hunt and provide for her and her offspring. A poor choice means almost certain loss of the litter and, thus, a failure to reproduce which is, in essence, the very reason for any of us - coyotes or people - to be here. I would think that a dog trying to breed a coyote bitch that is bonded with a male would result in a helluva fight b/n the dog and the resident male. I've been told that in coyotes, if a bitch is bred by one male, then is later bred again by a different male, the first males fertilized eggs will be resorbed and the new dog's embryos implanted, with the belief being that this is an ecological adaptation that"assumes', for lack of a better word, that the more "fit" of the two is the second one to breed her since he had to overcome the lesser "fit" male to even take his shot.
I guess a part of me is curious about how selective coyote bitches are. Would a male coyote, given the opportunity, be more promiscuous and nail any old domestic bitch that comes along than a bitch coyote that has a stronger instinctive drive to be selective for her mate and come pre-programmed through imprinting or whatever to have an image of exactly what her prospective mate should look like? And ol' Shep ain't it. There's no way to know what the parental lineage of any of the coydogs cited here might be, but it would be interesting to see if it's more often those randy ol' male coyotes grabbing a little strange while the bitches are at home being all puritanistic and such. No way to follow up, but it raises interesting question upon which we can speculate.
Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on May 28, 2003, 07:40 PM:
That would be..a white coyote. I have caught a white one with no markings that had the normal skin pigment and yellow eyes. It looked like pure coyote. Mn Outdoors mag had a picture of a local trapper that trapped 2 white ones a few years ago, and those also were basicly pure white and not albinos.
Are odd colored coyotes rare in your area? I have never caught a black, have caught 1 white and one blond, and catch red coyotes (some red fox red) every other year or so.
But these are just color phases (similar to black fox, cross fox, etc- all being phases of the red) not evidence of dog/coyote crosses (although certainly some could be, in rare, isolated cases).
Actualy a lot of research is available on this. A simple search of "coydogs" on any good search engine will give you hours of info.
Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on May 28, 2003, 07:45 PM:
If this is, in fact, true, it would place the hybrid in estrus at such a time when coyotes are not, and when the dog or hybrid would (probably) be greeted with teeth and growls versus welcomed with open arms.
Every major study that explored the coydog situation repeated this over and over. I never saw any information to the opposite. If I get time tomorrow, I'll post the study.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2003, 08:21 PM:
The issues keep multiplying, eek!
Good question, Tom. If I happen on a dog in areas that have no ranches, sheepherds, etc. I'll likely shoot it.
If I call in a dog(s), on a stand, and they act gamey, I ignore them. I won't bust a stand for a feral dog. They generally leave right away, so it has never come up that they were hanging around when I broke off a stand. In other words, they get a free pass, and I know that some are owned animals. If I have any doubt, at all, I won't shoot them. Coyotes, on the other hand, never get a free pass....what's that?
Color phases. Sure, I've seen a couple black coyotes, myself. Also a very pale silver gray, very distinctive. Saw one that was marked like a collie, brown white & black. Pure coyote, though. Saw a coyote that was black and brown, like a brindle. Another that was bright orange, I thought I'd shot a red fox, until I picked him up.
But, I went a long time without ever seeing anything that looked suspiciously like a "coydog". Then I saw one and had to alter my perspective, a bit.
The one thing I'm positive of, is that I have not yet seen a dog and coyote together .
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 28, 2003, 09:48 PM:
Rich......With a straight face you can tell me that neutered ole husky isn't overweight??????Come on now; maybe you city boys up in sunny Scottsdale think that a dog in that shape is "svelt", but down here in the country a little bit of jackrabbit chasing and that old dog would drop from exhaustion:) As an aside, Ive been on the atkins diet now for two months, and am down to a game weight of 208:) Yes, I believe in the rare, occasional, transient jaguar, they have been documented. No, I don't believe in black mt lions....they haven't been documented. Yes, I believe that coydogs occur thru rare sexual encounters between dog and coyote. Ive seen one that was claimed to be a cross....it was indeed marked like a coyote, but I don't know the truth. I think that answers your queries, as sarcastically as I think they were addressed, I don't think I implied otherwise in a previous post???? No matter, I hope this clears the misunderstanding up? Oh, the "we" I refered to, that would be used in the collective form, meaning all of "we" reasonable thinkers. I don't think the other "we"(those of us who haven't seen dogs running with coyotes) ever claimed that it might not rarely happen, only that "we" haven't seen it, thus forming personal opinions that "we", those with lots of time afield, had a common opinion of the matter. Whew! maybe "we" can put this to bed now:) Keep your A/C running buddy....gonna be a hot one up in the big city....I was going to post a pic of my trail dog, but upon reflection of previous post concerning overweight dogs, I might be accused of starving mine to death:)
~Az-Hunter~
---------------------------
"Not all coyote hunters witness the same amazing sights as other coyote hunters do in similar situations"
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 29, 2003, 06:05 AM:
Vic, nothing in response to the "city slicker" zinger? I thought that was an excellent tweak. Ah well. How much have you lost on the Atkins in 2 months? Pup lost a huge amount(something like a small human) and I have to lose about 15 lbs. Tyler is starting to hurt me in our sparring sessions and I need to increase my endurance and speed. I'll put my dog, Mattie, on it also. When she weas running free in Mo. she was lean and trim. She's lost her svelte, girlish figure lying around the house in Scottsdale. Thanks for explaining the use of "we" to me. I was beginning to think maybe you were pregnant or had been crowned King or Queen. Air-conditioning is going full blast. In only one day's time it was like opening a blast-furnace door. 109 on Tues. I see it was only 94 in Sierra Vista. One more plus for that area. I'll post a photo of the neighborhood coydog in a couple of weeks.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on May 29, 2003, 07:13 AM:
Getting back to the original topic of dogs running with coyotes and coyotes crossing with dogs.
I stated previously:
"As far as having seen dogs crossing with coyotes. I have only seen one case that I would say was a dog coyote cross. There were three of them killed in a small area and they were all light red colored, bleached out coyotes. Different enough in color that they were probably crossed. No difference in any other typical coyote chacteristics as far as skull, ears, legs, etc."
"I also killed an extremely long legged, long eared coyote similar to what Leonard described. It looked as if it was crossed with a greyhound. No pack of hounds in the country could catch it. It would literally leap over tall fences like they weren't even there. It ended up killing sheep and was finally shot with an airplane. It stayed in wetland areas in flat open country. I wish I had a picture of this coyote as it was truly unique."
In not wanting to get caught up in the quest to find something out of the ordinary, in both of these cases they could just as easily have been 100% pure coyotes.
The first could have simply been, as T'man pointed out, just a color phase, "recessive gene", "mutation", or whatever you want to call it. I may have gotten caught up in the hype myself and thought they were dog coyote crosses.
The only thing that I do know is that none of us had seen anything like these light red phased coyotes before.
The second coyote was just a freak. Leonard describes one very similar. I have also seen maybe a half dozen old dwarf coyotes that looked like they were missing a couple ribs.
All of the above mentioned observations may have been pure coyotes.
Hereford cattle used to do a lot of line breeding and Hereford cattle breeders would end up with dwarfs periodically. I can remember seeing some. These cattle weren't crossed with anything but other hereford cattle.
At the risk of being taken out of context, let me try to put into perspective the pool of observations that a person in my position can draw from. This is in no way meant to be boastful but rather just stating facts. Consider if you have 18 ADC trappers across the state and their combined total take for the year is 4000 coyotes. Now figure that most of them will probably be employed for over 30 years. That's 120,000 combined coyote observations in 30 years. We have annual meetings and guys will bring in pictures of freak coyotes all the time but I can't remember seeing any pictures of what I would consider coy/dogs other than the ones that I mentioned.
Now consider the sharing of information between different states. Now consider that most of us keep in contact with the private sector and the large fur buyers. Consider also that I have hunted in competitions in numerous states where we had 150 - 250 coyotes laying on the ground for the whole world to see.
When you roll it all up, that is an incredible pool of coyote observations to draw from to pick up on any rarities such as coy/dogs.
I can't speak for anywhere else in the U.S. but in SD, ND, WY, MT, NE, MN, IA, UT, & CO, these coydogs are virtually non existant.
I could pick up the phone and call 3 large fur buyers in this state alone and come up with far more than 100,000 coyote observations.
Consider Dan Hehehe and Leonard and all their years of competition hunting and all the coyotes they have seen strung out during their hay days.
A friend of mine shot a coyote once with the entire bottom jaw blown off. This coyotes was licking corn out of cow dung to survive and it was the fattest coyote I have ever personally witnessed. The point is that there is a lot of correspondence on the topic of coyotes and if coy/dogs were anything short of virtually non existant in these states, they would be showing up more regularly and they simply are not.
I am not going to rule out the possibility that coy/dogs do exist in some areas, at the same time I am not going to rule out "literally" hundreds of thousands of actual coyote observations that would suggest otherwise in this area.
The more I think about it, the more I think a lot of this is just color phases because I have never see any structural changes to indicate crossing. If you simply look at crossbreeding different breeds of dogs and look at all the structural changes that take place wouldn't these same structural changes have to take place in coy/dogs? Think about it! Most of what we see that are labeled as coy/dogs do not have any distinguising features other than different color phases.
The increased change in coyote eye color from yellow to brown still remains a mystery to me. I cannot explain that one.
~SH~
[ May 29, 2003, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2003, 10:08 AM:
Interesting commentary, Scott.
I have seen photos of animals that exibit dog characteristics, and observed dogs that were marked a lot like a coyote.
What really set me in a dither is the sincere claims of DNA proof. Maybe we shouldn't revisit that, but I still say it's easier to make the claims than actually produce the data.
I really feel that the "climate" does not favor coydog crosses, in certain areas. Mexico would be a good example. A lot of coyotes, and a lot of stray dogs, and no blatant examples of mixed animals. I think there has to be extenuating circumstances, or it just ain't gonna happen?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 29, 2003, 10:53 AM:
Leonard,when did anyone say they had DNA proof of coydog existence? My argument was simply that with specimen to work with,DNA could be used to prove whether or not a particular animal was coydog,and you have called that into question with a couple of articles you've posted,which,using your method,can themselves be called into question ?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2003, 12:10 PM:
SE, I didn't have you in mind, please don't take offense. I went back and found the first reference to "DNA".
posted May 21, 2003 09:25 PM by Rich Higgins
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The coyote is capable of breeding with both domestic dogs and wolves and the resultant whelps are fertile. The New England coyote has been proven to carry wolf DNA , and the redwolf,canis rufus, carries coyote DNA . H.T. Gier, in his book "Coyotes in Kansas" reports to have successfully bred 22 litters of coyote/domestic dog(coydog) hybrids in the laboratory.
Now, I'm not picking on Rich, either. Far from it, he's a good friend. I'm just saying that DNA is a buzzword, and tends to be misunderstood by almost everyone.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 29, 2003, 02:16 PM:
Leonard,what we have here is a grand case of Leonard bias,operating full tilt boogie !!
Now I haven't taken offense at all,and I know you weren't pointing at me, and my question was not meant to imply that,either. So please,don't you take offense either.But, what I see here is a post by Rich H, of an article claiming to be able to prove certain canids carry certain types of canid DNA.
On the other hand, you have posted a couple of articles stating that canid DNA research is not advanced enough to tell things like that. The way I see it,you haven't proved the first guy wrong by posting one or two articles,all you've done is present two articles that have an opposing,skeptical view,much like your own view.
Where does the bias come in ? It comes in when you scoff at any article or anyone that states DNA reserach is advanced enough to identify parentage or canid lineage, claiming you don't know whether the authors are experts or not, there is no proof of there credentials,etc. Then,in almost the same stroke, you post two articles which say DNA research isn't far enough advanced to prove such things, and present it as gospel!
Where is the proof,who is right and who is wrong ? I sure don't know. But I do know you have to apply the same set of rules to any articles you may use or dismiss to support your own views.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2003, 03:16 PM:
Just go back and read what I wrote, SE. I'm skeptical, that's it. I don't roll over and play dead when someone utters the magic words: DNA. And, I didn't do a hell of a lot of research, it just so happened that I read those two articles in the morning paper. I don't have the time to do a search. I express opinion, I don't crusade. And it matters not, if someone agrees with my opinion.
For anyone who has been around for a while, they might remember that I'm especially hard on junk science, results of questionable research, government funded "studies" which always require additional "study". Sucking at the money teat. If you wait, there will soon be another "study" that completely contradicts the previous. I'm tired of personal bias manifesting itself in grant work and labeling it as Revealed Word.
As a for instance: Mathematics is a science that doesn't leave much room for divergent opinion. I wish some of the other disiplines were more reserved in their pronouncements. Especially the field of biology. Maybe it's the engineer in me?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 29, 2003, 03:27 PM:
Leonard, I understand your skepticism,and in some areas I agree with it.I just think it's wrong to tear down supposed "junk science",by using even more "junk science" to do so.
Mathematics is a precise field,much of it man made, and it has no real life in it.It is not subject to disease or mutation, and therefore it's not on the same level as biology.
Any variable in mathematics is usually introduced by man [with the exception of some variables within physics,which is a form of math].
Biology has many more variables than mathematics, most of which are introduced by man only by accident, or in a controlled experiment.The majority of the variables in biology were put there by another life form,or "nature",which is only another word for biology.
It takes longer,to make an exact science of something that was not made by man, and is not completely understood.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2003, 05:26 PM:
quote:
I just think it's wrong to tear down supposed "junk science",by using even more "junk science" to do so.
You see, SE, you make my point for me. Thank you!
I'm advocating nothing. All I have to do is find opposing data, which there is, in abundance. And, I'm not in position to know which opinion is junk science, and which isn't.
All I know is that there isn't basic agreement on some of these subjects; I have no crystal ball.
There is much documentation on sloppy research.
Contrad(f)iction in terms:
Tobacco Industry Research.
How many scientists, for how many years, testified before congress that cigarettes didn't cause lung cancer?
In a word: credibility.
In the final analyisis, you have to sort the BS for yourself...unfortunately.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 29, 2003, 05:56 PM:
ok,so once again, we disagree in our views on some things .Sure you can find opposing views on anything, I'm not arguing that.That doesn't mean one view isn't true, however.That was my point.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2003, 06:48 PM:
Rich H: Anyone else observed coyotes and dogs hunting/running together?
Answer: No. Called coyotes. Called dogs. Never together. (Sorry, I misunderstood the original question. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2003, 07:04 PM:
Vic, I have to tell you that I read your theory about opposums in Arizona several years ago. I won't say that I spent much time researching, but I have not seen one. Before you called attention to it, as well as after.
Maybe it's just too damned hot for them? It does seem unlikely that they walk around your state to get to Texas or California, but I can't argue with your statement.
I know this much. There are plenty of them around here. For quite a long time, I had one sleeping in my garage. I knew where he sacked out, didn't have the heart to disturb him. I think they do quite well within the confines of civilization.
I got it! Too many coyotes, they wiped them out!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on May 29, 2003, 09:47 PM:
This is an interesting thread even though it may have gotten a little sideways from where Rich Higgins intended for it to lead. So I will say upfront that I personally have not witnessed coyotes and dogs running and hunting together.
I would like to SPECULATE on the sidebar topic. I believe that is entirely possible that each one of us could have killed a coyote dog hybrid somewhere along the line and not known it.
In biology class did you ever discuss the dominant gene table and demonstrate how you can cross a white flowing plant with a red flowering plant of the same species and still end up with just red flowering plants as offspring? It turned out that the red flowering trait was dominant.
This link better describes the process than I ever could only they use seeds as an example.
http://www.biology-online.org/2/4_crossing_over.htm
If we were to assume that the coyote being of pure heritage were RR in that scenario, and the dog having the dominant traits bred out of it rr. According to that document wouldn’t it be safe to assume that it would be at least the second generation before we would be capable of recognizing a hybrid by sight alone? Even then it is required that two hybrids mate to see traits that soon. If the Rr mated with a RR the coyote dominance would still prevail in that litter. Providing that I understand that mess correctly anyway.
So, that leads me to ask, Has anyone woke up one morning to find their prized bird dog has just given birth to a litter of coyotes????
[ May 29, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Bryan J ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 30, 2003, 04:15 PM:
Leonard, did you see the article in today's paper "DNA on envelope touting bogus lawsuit leads to arrest over 11982 rape-murder." ?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2003, 04:32 PM:
No, Rich, guess I must have missed it? Does it have a bearing on this question before us?
Just trying to figure it out, I'd say that matching a rape-murder sample with DNA taken from an envelope is a simple process. Identifying patterns in billions of code and comparing it to some other sample, is another matter.
Hell, I don't know? Maybe they can sequence it well enough to identify segments from different species?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 30, 2003, 04:40 PM:
Wiley, your and your fellow trappers finding of very rare occurance of hybrids in the original range of coyotes is in keeping with the results of the studies both Trappnman and myself posted citing the majority of reports from areas of initial expansion. Regarding the brown-eyed coyotes I came across this in "Coyotes and Related Canis in the Southeastern United States" by P.S.Gipson. Coats of most of the wild canids taken during the Arkansas study were typical salt-and-pepper gray. Pelt coloration varied from spotted, to rufous to almost pure black. All coyotes and coyote cross red wolf hybrids examined(even black specimens) had the original agouti banding on the guard hairs. Dogs and some dog hybrids did not. Pale, golden-brown eye color was typical of animals identified as coyotes or coyote cross red wolf hybrids. The eye color of other canids ranged from golden-green to blue and deep brown. Brown eye color was associated with dog or part dog specimens".
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 30, 2003, 08:51 PM:
Hard to say LB, Ive never before heard anyone I hold in regard, say they have seen possums in Az? Maybe you remember the guy, James Thomas, he is the fella that claimed to have seen a myriad of critters Ive never laid eyes on in this state. I used to call bullshit on him constantly, but after meeting the guy, and talking with him, I came away with a different perspective. He was possibly the most knowledgable guy Ive met pertaining to things concerning trapping and hunting. So...who knows, maybe Im not as savvy about Arizona wildlife as I think I am? But; Im sticking to my guns, no possums here, and dogs don't run with coyotes, and coydogs are as scarce as ocelots, and no one is gonna snap a pic of a black mt lion, because there ain't no such thing! Now to the matter of coyote over population in Az, not sure where you keep getting that idea? No more, or less here, than in any other western state I can think of? Maybe we just don't have as many guys out there bangin' at them 12 months a year?
~Az-Hunter~
---------------------------
"Most coyotes act the same, most of the time,in most situations"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2003, 09:12 AM:
You're right about James Thomas, he's genuine article. In fact, I think I was there when you met him? I miss him. He seems to have dropped off the face of the earth, since he moved to Virginia? Something about cockfighting, as I recall? But, I didn't know that he claimed to have seen 'possums in AZ? As I said, it doesn't seem logical, on the one hand; but (by God) I haven't ever seen one, "RK" or otherwise.
Have not seen coyotes running with dogs, we agree on that item. Coydogs scarce as ocelots, that's at least the case. The black lion question, my money is on: it doesn't exist, until I see one; no fuzzy pictures, either.
Now, as to the coyote population in Arizona, don't be so modest! I have spent a lot of time hunting contests, and it's almost a cottage industry, planning a hunt where it's difficult, (but not impossible) to hunt in Arizona. Why? Because it is always the most productive, even if it takes hours to get there, and thereby shortens your hunting time. Eight hours of daylight hunting in Arizona will , (more than likely) beat ten hours of hunting in neighboring states.
You are to be envied, so don't play your hand too innocently, you sly dog!
Good hunting. LB
PS ...and if the population around McNeal is suffering, you have only yourself to blame!
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on May 31, 2003, 10:18 AM:
Az: "No more, or less here, than in any other western state I can think of?"
Az: "Maybe we just don't have as many guys out there bangin' at them 12 months a year?"
Which way is it?
If you don't have any more or less coyotes in Az than in any other western state, then whether or not they are hammering on them 12 months of the year in other states is a moot point isn't it?
Maybe AZ doesn't have a need to hammer on them 12 months of the year like they do in other states where livestock losses are higher and recreational hunters are not trying to build shrines honoring the coyote.
Have a good one!
~SH~
[ May 31, 2003, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2003, 12:24 PM:
Meow!
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 01, 2003, 05:16 AM:
Bryan's post is dead on the money here,another good example he mentioned is the black tongue of the chow.
Honestly speaking,according to the latest science, if your favorite bird dog did give birth to coydogs,in some instances you wouldn't know by sight !
There would have to be some outstanding visual evidence that immediately caused you to think in that direction.For example, the pic Rich C posted of himself [?] earlier, leads me to believe that Elmer Fudd is one of his distant ancestors ?
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on June 01, 2003, 10:08 AM:
In retrospect the bird dog question was answered before it was asked. In that scenario, the tramp would likely gather her sample and go in search for the next donor. Poor question sorry.
Look guys I’m just an average coyote caller in a very large room listening to a conversation between several men that have forgotten more about coyotes and coyote behavior than I will ever know. I assume you have the opportunity to examine more coyotes in a week than I do all year long. You may be able to recognize subtle differences in markings on coyotes. Some of the traits described in the study, I don’t believe would be recognized by the average coyote hunter. (me) Spots, chow mouth, green or blue eyes, yes. Small variations in guard hair, color, and pale eyes possibly not. I’m not implying that this happens all the time and I don’t disagree with the findings of the study posted by tappman or AZ-hunter. The only issue that I have is the heritage of the donor. I believe that the individual parent will affect the appearance of the hybrid, and a cross, depending on the donor, possibly would not give any outward appearance at all.
The Chow mouthed coyote fits that scenario perfectly, and leads me to believe that in a coyote chow cross, the only visible traits would be a black mouth. Using that study I would assume that if a brother and sister got together, 1 out of 4 of the pups would have a normal colored mouth. Also if one of the offspring from that littler got with a full blood coyote the chow mouth would only be present one out of four of the pups.
AZ-Hunter, I agree, busting coyotes 12 months a year would affect the numbers comparison, in the fall.
As for the possums, I once saw a Raccoon without hair on it’s tail. LOL!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2003, 12:07 PM:
That was my animal that had the "chow" mouth. Sometimes I wish I took more pictures. That mouth was so black it looked almost purple. It was a female, by the way. Picture perfect stand, she was somewhere out in the sage flats, came in within a couple minutes. I killed it right in the middle of an abandoned ranch, possibly a hundred years old, within yards of an old west cemetary. Large cottonwoods, nice seep, ½walls of stone buildings, etc. Nearest ranch was a few miles, and the nearest thing that would pass for a town was possibly twenty miles in either direction?
Is this the sort of conditions that would lead to a crossed breed animal? Could be? I don't know, but it looked exactly like a coyote until that tongue flopped out.
Good hunting. LB
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 01, 2003, 12:17 PM:
Damn! and to think of all the hours Ive spent traveling to New Mexico and Texas seeking coyote rich enviorments, when I had the high numbers in my back pocket:) Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence ain't it? In the right habitat/locations, Az does have some fairly good coyote hunting, but by no stretch has the numbers like NM and Tx does, fact not fiction. I will extend an open invitation for you to come on out LB and we can wack a few come fall. I know you must be tired of searching the shrinking predator habitat of Kalifornia, hell, any place would be better than there!.....even the few scattered dogs we have here in Az.
~Az-Hunter~
---------------------
"Most black mt.lions act the same, in most situations,most of the time"
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 01, 2003, 12:26 PM:
LB.... Might there be another explaination for the color of the mouth...maybe something in its diet? Did it appear to be the pigment of mouth skin, or possibly dyed a dark color from something it had eaten a lot of???? Out here, I would hazzard it had been gorging on tuna(prickly pear fruit), but not sure what it could have been in the area you were hunting? Rough place for a chow dog to be running around searching for a bitch in estrus to poke? My money would be on a chemical reaction to a food source, or its color, rather than having been bred to a chow....but Im stubborn on these matters anyway:)
~Az-Hunter~
---------------------------
"Most coyotes act the same, they can't help it,they are coyotes"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2003, 01:06 PM:
Yeah, about half of New Mexico is very decent, you can decide which half. Never got past west Texas, and it's good; behind closed gates, which I can't access, for the most part. I only know what I know, and that you could just as easily drive west. I have an idea that we could get you a little excited?
Good hunting. LB
PS, any experience in Sonora or Chihuahua?
PPS no chance of stained mouth and tongue. For one thing, it was way north of any prickly pear, or berries. And, I know what a chow looks like, my son has one.
[ June 01, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on June 01, 2003, 11:13 PM:
Leonard, I’m not an expert on this kind of thing I just paid close attention when my biology teacher asked what color of flower do you get when you cross a plant (they might have been sweet peas) with white flowers with a plant that has red flowers. I said pink and then candy stripe and I was wrong on both counts. The topic interested me because at the time I was raising and breeding hogs. It helped me notice patterns to select breeding stock.
To come to the assumption that your animal is a cross, I had to assume that the black mouth was not a natural recessive trait in coyotes. If it was, with the experience and cross section on this board several people would have harvested an animal similar to that one, you probably would have taken several yourself. I don’t think that is too large of a leap.
As for opportunity for the deed, It could be possible that someone didn’t have the hart to put the animal down after he started acting up and taken him to the county and hoped the ranch near by would take him in. That kind of thing happens around here all the time. They usually end up getting put-down the country way.
You have ruled out the staining possibility, It could have been a mutation that you prevented from spreading, or a cross. I guess the only way to know for sure is to do the cross in a lab somewhere, but from the information available to me and the way I understand that study, I’m leaning towards an isolated rare incident of a chow-coyote cross.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 02, 2003, 01:25 PM:
I have personally seen and taken several black coyotes. In all cases they were regular coyotes taken while calling fresh burn areas. I have seen them rolling around in the charcoal and soot and ashes. Burn areas are goldmines for all critters, prey and predator alike.
Opossum? Thank's Rich. That mean's I am protected here in AZ. I did see one dead in the road up towards Camp Verde Vic. Only one I've seen in AZ.
Do coyotes co-mingle? I can't think of any reason why not. I had a Carrie Blue that co-mingled with coyotes quite often. Tore him pretty good. By the time he got all healed up, he'd go co-mingle some more.
Higgins, call me up tonight about Saturday. Will need to be at my place around 9'ish?
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 02, 2003, 09:12 PM:
"Most black mt.lions act the same, in most situations,most of the time"
Vic, never say never. Albinism and melanism can occur in just about any species. Visit any pet shop and check out the reptile section. Nature permits it, breeders propagate it.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 03, 2003, 01:33 AM:
here here,if nature will permit things like my ex-wife to exist,anything is possible.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 03, 2003, 04:57 AM:
Wait until I inform my friend Coycaller that his black tounged registered Laborador had to be crossed with a stinking CHOW. LOL Here all of this time he has been thinking he owned a purebred.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 03, 2003, 11:29 AM:
no way it's purebred lab,not if it was black tongued.I bred labs for duck hunting as a hobby off and on for 20 years.Only raised and sold a few litters,but I read a lot about bloodlines and many things labrador in order to make a sound judgment when buying pups for myself .
By the way, the labrador has another example of genetics gone ape within it's ranks.That is the chocolate lab. No one had even seen a chocolate until about 15-20 years ago.IMHO the reason it came into existence is because someone bred a chesepeake to a lab and registered the litter as Labs.Now they are a part of the labs make up,even though they look and act a bit different,and you must breed chocolate to chocolate in order to get one.
[ June 03, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 03, 2003, 03:51 PM:
quote:
you must breed chocolate to chocolate in order to get one.
No, thanks! I'll have a yellow, please.
As far as black mouths, I have always thought of chow mouths as quite distinctive, including the tongue.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on June 03, 2003, 04:48 PM:
If anyone wants to stock Opossum I will make you a deal you can not refuse.We have plenty of the over grown rats.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 03, 2003, 04:59 PM:
Yeah, I second that! Around here, they make great speed bumps. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on June 03, 2003, 05:30 PM:
They make pretty good shoelaces in a pinch,too...g-hog is better though
Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on June 05, 2003, 05:49 PM:
black tongue meaning not purebred? LOL Come on guys- the ole "black tongue mongrel" theory is just that- a theory. Put it next to the "pink nose" threoy meaning mongrels. Truth is- if you have bred many dogs, you know black tongue and pink (some call them butterfly noses) are just recessive traits that show up periodically.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 05, 2003, 06:01 PM:
trappnman,
Here awhile back I was thinking that I liked you. Now I am sure of it. Black coyotes, white coyotes and black tounge in pure bred Lab. Recessive traits all.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on June 06, 2003, 09:43 PM:
T'man,
Remind me to show you the white pr. dogs at the entrance to the Badlands National Park. They are the Black Tailed Pr. Dog species with white fur and brown eyes. They are not albino. Recessive genes just like the red angus in the black angus breed.
~SH~
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on June 08, 2003, 10:35 AM:
CDog, I totally agree with you on your statement about feral dogs killing livestock and coyotes getting the blame. In California, as in most western states, feral dogs are fair game. Though I have never taken a feral dog, I have called in several. I have a problem shooting one because in the back of my mind I keep thinking it might not be wild and might be someone's pet chasing rabbits or something. Getting back to coyotes causing problems with livestock, I have said this before. I'm sure it happens but on the rare side, that a coyote will kill cattle(calves)but sheep are another story.Kinda reminds me of being in Idaho a few months back, everyone blaming the wolf for the decline of all the big game animals. It's true a wolf will take an elk, now and then, but I doubt it's the mainstay of their diet. These people who say the wolf is the only cause of game decline don't take into account disease, loss of habitat, weather conditions ect. Oh well. Good Hunting
Posted by 22-250 (Member # 36) on June 17, 2003, 07:16 PM:
Question for the professional ADC people. If you are conducting aerial gunning and you see a dog or a group of dogs in area where the nearest house is 10 miles away. Do you shoot the dog or dogs just like coyotes? Same question, this time the dog or dogs are in area with sheep, where sheep has been killed recently?
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on June 18, 2003, 12:07 PM:
.22-250,
Dogs are handled on a case by case basis. Usually it involves the sheriff and calls to the neighbors to determine whether or not the dogs are truly wild.
When you are dealing with feral dogs, you are dealing with a touchy situation that has to be handled respectfully. Yes, I have shot some dogs but not before going through the proper procedure of determining whether or not they were someones's pets. I have seen some bad dog situations with neighbors dogs that were not staying home.
One yipper,
Is 52 verified calf kills in one spring "rare"?
My dog complaints are far more rare.
The calf situations are more "opportunistic" than sheep but they do occur. Had a guy call me yesterday that has argued for years that coyotes wouldn't kill calves. Now the sky is falling. LOL! Calf kills are quite common in areas where the coyote population tends to have more older adults and less younger coyotes.
It's usually not too difficult to tell the difference between a coyote kill and a dog kill. Usually dogs will run the hell out of the cattle and tear at the hide of calves as compared to a typical coyote killed calf that was found and killed by the coyotes when the cows went to feed and water.
~SH~
[ June 18, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on June 18, 2003, 12:55 PM:
Wiley,
Have you noticed whether or not, even after the older more mature coyotes are shot that the group of coyotes left ,still tend to be hard on the calves.
later pup
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 18, 2003, 04:26 PM:
Scott, is that 52 dead in a pasture? That's not open range conditions, right? What was the time span? LB
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 18, 2003, 05:46 PM:
Scott was that 52 calves in one spring on one ranch or your area or for the whole state of South Dakota? There is no doubt that coyotes will kill calves but how widespread of a problem is it in your area. Like I have told you before. I hunt on over 100,000 acres every year and on dozens of different landowners. I tell them that if they have any problems at all with coyotes to call me if they let me hunt during the fur season. None have ever reported to me a calf kill in the 10 plus years I have been hunting on them. They see them a lot of course but have never had a kill to my knowledge. This is not a very good test plot but I would like to know why there are not more kills. Is it because of the numbers of coyotes I take or do the ranchers keep a closer eye on their calves? I have heard that some coyotes are just prone to this kind of behavior and that may suggest a more aggressive bloodline? Some areas seem to have a chronic problem with coyotes even though the populations are not what you would conceder high.
If the 52 “verified” calf kills were in you’re your area how many acres do you cover and approximately how many calves are born there each year. Also do you think that if overall population control was increased or decreased it would have an impact on the numbers of calves killed a year or do you think it is just a “coyote or coyotes” problem rather than a population problem? One last thing before you get dizzy. LOL Of the 52 calf kills can you attribute a percentage of those losses to some form of neglect by the rancher? I have heard stories of very lazy hired hands or the ranchers kid not being responsible. As you know first calf heifers need to be watched like a hawk because of calving problems and sometimes abandonment. In a big calving pasture if you miss an orfand calf for a day the calf is very vulnerable. What’s the scoop?
Q,
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on June 18, 2003, 07:01 PM:
Danny, In much of the Idaho backcountry where wolves were released elk are the main food source for wolves. Rabbits, mice and the occasional 80 lb. deer just doesn't feed a dozen wolves like a 400 lb. elk. Most of the wolf country here has low deer numbers anyway. The elk is the most numerous large animal and wolves prey on them the most. Of all the wolf kills I have come across I would guesstimate 80% were elk and the rest were deer.
I was reading a study the other day about wolves and elk in Yellowstone. The study went two winters. The first winter there was 46 calves per 100 cows in December. By May there was 3 per 100. The next year there was 38 calves per 100 cows in December and by may 9 per 100. the study showed that elk made up 88% of the wolves diet. The elk calves were the most heavily preyed upon for all age classes of elk. Considering there are other large animals like bison and moose in Yellowstone wolves still prey heavily on elk.
I agree there are many factors that effect game populations but in parts of the west the wolf is definetly a major factor also.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on June 18, 2003, 07:09 PM:
pup: "Have you noticed whether or not, even after the older more mature coyotes are shot that the group of coyotes left ,still tend to be hard on the calves."
Rarely! The older adults are the ones with the most confidence. Once they are out of the picture, the ones that replace them are "USUALLY" less confident and "USUALLY" less aggressive as far as killing calves. There is exceptions to every rule with coyotes but usually the older ones have the confidence and agression to get the job done on calves but seldom younger coyotes.
LB: "Have you noticed whether or not, even after the older more mature coyotes are shot that the group of coyotes left ,still tend to be hard on the calves."
Q: "Scott was that 52 calves in one spring on one ranch or your area or for the whole state of South Dakota?"
Sorry guys, I should have explained myself better AGAIN. 52 calves was within one spring, a few years back, prior to the mange. This was just in the 3 county area that I am responsible for. That was 52 confirmed "REPORTED" calf kills in about 5000 square miles. Since that year it dropped to about 30, then to 20, then to about 5 since the mange hit them so hard and fur prices climbed a little creating more adult mortality.
Wow, where to even start on the whys and hows of calves killed by coyotes?
Here's some of the variables:
1. Older coyote population due to a lack of hunting pressure
2. Calving in rough country where coyotes can sneak in and out as opposed to flat open country where coyotes get chased by "MAD COWS".
3. Adverse weather will create short bursts of coyote predation
4. Natural prey availability
5. Management practices such as feeding cows away from where the calves are bedded.
6. A cow with a set of twins.
7. A cow that has a difficult birth and is partially paralyzed.
8. Who calves first in the area and pulls the coyotes from their neighbors. By the time some guys get to calving, there is enough natural food available.
That's just a short list of the variables that contribute to legitimate calf kills off the top of my head.
Let me address something else here and that is whether or not I would have a potential bias. Many has been the time when I have proved a coyote's innocense by pointing out where calves died of natural causes and simply were consumed by coyotes. I feel I have a responsibility to be honest with producers regardless how upset they are and I do.
Q: "None have ever reported to me a calf kill in the 10 plus years I have been hunting on them."
That's not surprising. I have many producers that never have calves killed, producers that have calves killed just about every year, and those isolated one shot situations.
Q: "Is it because of the numbers of coyotes I take or do the ranchers keep a closer eye on their calves?"
Could be both or a combination of the reasons mentioned above. Your killing out the resident adults that are replaced by migrants certainly helps the situation.
Q: "I have heard that some coyotes are just prone to this kind of behavior and that may suggest a more aggressive bloodline?"
Nope! This is a natural survival instinct that we are talking about here. Coyotes are opportunistic and the older and bolder they are, the more they recognize and take advantage of these opportunities. Coyote age is a major factor in legitimate calf kills.
Q: "Some areas seem to have a chronic problem with coyotes even though the populations are not what you would conceder high. "
Those areas may simply create more "opportunistic" situations.
Q: "Also do you think that if overall population control was increased or decreased it would have an impact on the numbers of calves killed a year or do you think it is just a “coyote or coyotes” problem rather than a population problem?"
I would say a population of older coyotes has as much impact as anything. If there is more older coyotes, there is more "opportunistic coyotes".
Consider that my peak was also at the low of fur prices which correlates with an older population of coyotes. Mange and higher fur prices have both contributed to the reduction of calf kills in this area.
Q: "Of the 52 calf kills can you attribute a percentage of those losses to some form of neglect by the rancher?"
Not usually! Some of my worst coyote kill cases involved some of the very best managers AND COYOTE HUNTERS that I know. It's simply a matter of opportunity and "opportunists" coming together at the right place at the right time.
~SH~
[ June 19, 2003, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on June 20, 2003, 09:28 PM:
I don't know about all this stuff. They have statistics on everything but old predator hunters. Did you know that drunk drivers kill 250,000 people every year and Another 250,000 die from smoking, another 50,000 die from 2nd hand smoke. It's hard to get through this life without being hit by a drunk driver or dying from someone smoking. Hey, I've made it to 60, I wonder if someone was pulling my leg about all those stats lol? Just funning.
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0