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Author
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Topic: Dogs running with coyotes
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 19, 2003 06:48 PM
Tom Moore (22-250)told me a couple of weeks ago that he had called in a medium size black and white dog that came in with a coyote. The coyote hung back while the dog approached and sniffed the speaker, hiked his leg and departed with the coyote. Anyone else observed coyotes and dogs hunting/running together?
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 19, 2003 07:23 PM
Rich Higgins,
I once killed a coyote that followed a black domestic dog in to my calls, but never gave it much thought. There were a lot of stray dogs running around in that area anyway, and I have seen plenty of evidence that coyotes often show no fear of domestic dogs. Not unless they are being chased by hunting dogs anyway. I have never seen any coyotes actually running with domestic dogs or hunting with them though.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Seldom Ever
Knows what it's all about
Member # 185
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posted May 19, 2003 07:37 PM
Well then,this is what makes these boards so invaluable to everyone. I have always believed [assumed]solely as a result of my own thinking and not from any learned source,that coyotes would automatically kill any domestic dog, other than one so large that they couldn't ? Is this not the case ? Semms odd, that something so wild would mix with something so contaminated by humans. Live and learn,this is really interesting.
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One Shot,One Kill.
Posts: 293 | From: West Virginia | Registered: Apr 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted May 19, 2003 08:59 PM
Coincidence in my opinion, dog and coyote may have come to the call at, or close to same time, but I doubt they were running together. I have never seen dogs running with coyotes in all my time in the field, nor have I ever heard from one of my associates that they witnessed such behavior. Will be interesting to see if anyone here has seen them run together.
~Az-Hunter~
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"Most coyotes come to the call, in spite of the little tricks we use, not because of them"
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Terry Hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 58
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posted May 20, 2003 03:48 PM
Back in about 1975 when coyotes first came to middle TN.I watched a coyote and a german shepard run togather for several weeks.The shepard was a female.They were always close to cattle.I removed the problem.This was the only time I have seen a dog and a coyote run togather.
Posts: 132 | From: N. Middle Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 20, 2003 04:11 PM
I have to second what AZ said. I have seen coyotes respond and dogs respond, and they have never shown the inclination to mix, or even to wander over and exchange sniffs. In most cases, neither seems interested in closing ground after the other is spotted, maybe assuming the other has a rabbit cornered?
In those cases, I have to pick my shot on the coyotes before they flare off. In most cases, neither appears to be intimidated by the other, more like a professional courtesy. The dogs lose interest sooner.
But I haven't seen them running together, ever.
And at least half of these sightings have not been feral dogs, they appear to be reservation mongrels, and they probably get fed every day?
Other places, if you can believe reports such as above, they do mix. Not from what I've seen?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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sporterweight
Knows what it's all about
Member # 189
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posted May 20, 2003 06:00 PM
Rich H,
I've called in a couple of neighborhood dogs probably everybody has.I figured they just didn't have anything better to do.There was a thread on another board of wild dogs coming to the call and some of the "results" of that were very controversial.I did a search and was amazed at the info. on domesticated dogs running wild killing livestock and attacking people.
I read where a man his son and another man went calling. A pack of wild dogs came in fast,the son got scared -didn't know what to do,long story-short the men shot the dogs off boy.
Another story of a guy pulling up to his mothers house.She had been fighting off a pack of wild dogs with a garden hoe for many minutes.
Has anyone on here seen a dog come in,in an aggressive manner? Sporterweight
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You got space invaders ?-No
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You got asteroids ?-No -but dad does -can hardly sit on the toilet somedays.
Posts: 91 | From: Meridian ,Idaho | Registered: Apr 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted May 20, 2003 07:17 PM
The few dogs I've called in were obvious pets. Never seen a "wild" dog. One of the pets I called in a few years ago, I really think his owner must be a coyote caller. That dog KNEW what I was doing and seemed as intent on the stand as I was. He came straight in to the caller, circled it till he got my scent, followed it straight to me and laid down next to me, facing the caller. He'd watch the caller, then look at me with a good happy dog face, then back to watching the caller. Got a couple yappers on that stand, and he kept looking at me like "ain't ya gonna shoot them sumbitches?".
Wish I could have taken that dog home with me...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 20, 2003 07:55 PM
I can only recall one instance when dogs and coyotes were together. This was in the late '70's and we'd had reports from cattle people that they'd seen this pack on several occasions and a couple folks had lost some lambs and ewes that were just run and killed, nothing eaten. Well, long story less long, we have a phrase for dogs that run with coyotes - fair game. We just happened to run the whole bunch out of a stand of sand plums one morning - two coyotes and five blue heelers. The coyotes let the heelers take the point while they laid back. We pushed them down a half-mile line and across a mile road into the next section without putting too much pressure on them. All the while, we set up four guys at the opposite end of the section, two on each side of the half-mile line, in ambush. Back the trucks up about a quarter mile to give them some comfort room and waited. Short story even shorter, four guys with M-1's and those new-fangled Mini-14's let loose with a lead barrage that Eisenhower himself would have been proud of. One coyote survived the initial volley and ultimately got away on us. Only one fella in the entire area raised heelers and when word got back to him that heelers had been taken running with coyotes, he denied knowing anything about them or missing any dogs. I just hate having to do the number on domestic/ feral dogs. It just pets me wrong for some reason. But, in this area, I've seen very few actual coyote problems, whereas I can tell you all kinds of tales about dogs taking calves and lambs, then the coyotes getting the blame.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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jerry
Knows what it's all about
Member # 195
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posted May 20, 2003 08:38 PM
when i was a kid growing up im mississippi , we squirell hunted every day after school . one day we were way back into the woods . a group of 4 dogs ran after us and tried to attack us , there were only two of us , and we had 22 rifles with us , it got ugly. my friend was bitten twice and we killed two of the dogs . this was in the 70's, and he had to get rabies shots , i was so sorry for him . it was an awful ordeal for a kid to go thru . as for dogs running with coyotes, i have never seen this . i have removed several feral dogs from ranches usually packed up and causing alot of damage . they run horses right thru fences , and seem to kill just for the sport of it . this is especially true with sheep . Jerry .
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heck yeah Ill take my wife callin, when she learns how to skin a coyote.
Posts: 30 | From: washington state | Registered: May 2003
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BCOK
PAKMAN
Member # 181
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posted May 21, 2003 05:10 AM
My veterinarian, who runs lots of cattle, and I were discussing coyotes recently. He told me that his neighbor's dog was running with coyotes. He witnessed it and told the neighbor. The neighbor didn't believe him until they saw it as well.
A little while back I was reserching to find anything I could about coyotes and found (don't remember where) information about coydogs. To have part coyote, part dog some "running" together would have to occur, wouldn't it?
BC
Posts: 1 | From: OK | Registered: Apr 2003
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BillfMO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 192
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posted May 21, 2003 02:53 PM
As to the question: Do dogs run with coyotes? The answer is YES. When you will see this the most is
in the spring breeding season. Off spring of this is your coy-dog which makes a smarter animal as they seem to have the knowlegde of humans like your own dog. Most of this is feral dogs but it can be your's or your neighbors house or working dog. If it is someones dog they will only run with them to breed and then go back home. While the feral dog will stay for a longer time. What is really bad for the farmer is the feral dog pack as they will do more damage to his livestock than coyotes. Feral dogs are also harder to kill again because they know man's ways and are no afraid of humans they will not run in most cases they will attack. A friend of mine was tracking what he thought to be a coyote in fluffy snow to jump to put hounds on. He walked into a grove of tree to find 6 wild dogs coming at him. Luckly he was a very good shot he killed or knocked down 4 and the other 2 run. The hunting group later hunted them down and killed them also. But they had to do it by tracking and jump shooting them as their hounds would not or could not run them.
[ May 21, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: BillfMO ]
Posts: 24 | Registered: May 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted May 21, 2003 04:52 PM
Interesting subject, I have to agree with Az-Hunter and Leonard. I have seen coyotes and dogs come to the call at the same time before and they don't pay to much attention to each other as stated. I have never seen a coydog that I know of, I'm not to sure what one would look like? but I have seen wild dogs and they can be bad news, Good Hunting.
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 21, 2003 05:00 PM
Every now and then, I hear a story or two about coyotes crossbreeding with domestic dogs. If this sort of thing happens for real, I wonder why I have never seen any real proof. I have killed probably several hundred coyotes and more than a few feral dogs in my time. They all appeared to be either all dog or all coyote. My coyotes and my dogs have been taken in Kansas, nebraska, wyoming, south dakota, Iowa and texas. No sign of any so called coydogs. I guess that these coydogs must be sort of like flying saucers. Some folks see em, but I never have.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Seldom Ever
Knows what it's all about
Member # 185
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posted May 21, 2003 05:58 PM
I have never seen a pic of one,and yet I hear of them quite often.Is it possible people use the phrase inappropriately to describe a feral dog ?
Where I grew up in Tennessee,there was very occasionally a pack of wild dogs running through the area wreaking havoc on pets,livestock,etc.Usually they were dealt with quite swiftly by some hunter who happened upon them.
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One Shot,One Kill.
Posts: 293 | From: West Virginia | Registered: Apr 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 21, 2003 06:44 PM
Seldom,
Danny B once called and shot a two headed coyote once, or at least that is the rumor. I'm pretty sure it is true thlugh because Danny would not lie about something that important. Well maybe he would? ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Sorry seldom, I don't mean to shrug off your question. We do have stray dogs running in packs in some area's near Omaha-Council Bluffs area, and they do kill livestock.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Seldom Ever
Knows what it's all about
Member # 185
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posted May 21, 2003 07:10 PM
Hey no harm done here Rich, don't apologize. I have seen two headed animals at the circus,and I believe in retrospect I was once married to one.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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One Shot,One Kill.
Posts: 293 | From: West Virginia | Registered: Apr 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 21, 2003 07:12 PM
Rich
This isn't the best quality picture since it's a digital pic on a cheap camera taken of a TV monitor with the pic from a VHS tape paused, but it pretty clearly demonstrates what is, to me, pure coydog. It was posted on PM some time back, too. In fact, this one carried all the hair patterns and colors of a coyote, with all the structural features of a coyote. He was unusually docile and sat there panting at us until he was put down. We caught his sire within two hundred yards of this same point several days later - a black and white Husky that had been running feral in the region for the better part of a year. I've seen several others but this is the only one I have a picture of.
[ May 21, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 21, 2003 08:43 PM
I have been at this game for a spell, and have always heard about coydogs or so called wolf genes in coyote or some sort of bastard animal.
And, actually, I have regarded the claims much like those about flying saucers, or little green men. Not too believable. Especially since they always seem to originate back east where they don't know, and haven't a lot of experience with coyotes, in general.
So, this subject came up a while back, and I will relate what I said then, because it made me stop and think.
I think I know what a coyote looks like. I know how they act. A few years ago, I killed a coyote that looked 100% coyote, except when his tongue hung out. It was coal black, exactly like a chow, (dog breed) and his whole mouth was black. I have never seen anything like it before.
Then, when I was on that Tom Mix Hunt a couple years ago, I killed an animal that looked like a real leggy coyote with a summer coat. Don't forget, it was in January, and it snowed that morning; it was cold. He weighed over 44 pounds, and was very long, for a coyote.
I have a four inch suspension lift on my truck, and I stood on the open door, propped my elbows on the top of the door as I held the scale, with the hook in the hock, and I just barely was able to keep his front paws from dragging in the dirt.
But, this animal acted exactly like a coyote, and his color was perfectly coyote, it was just shorter fur; by quite a lot.
The only other thing was that his ears were larger than normal, errect, but they were black. I've still got them in my freezer.
So, those are the facts, draw your own conclusions.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted May 21, 2003 09:03 PM
Cdogg,
That blurry picture as proof reminds me of all those fuzzy and out of focus pictures of the Lochness Monster and Sasquach. LOL ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 21, 2003 09:25 PM
The coyote is capable of breeding with both domestic dogs and wolves and the resultant whelps are fertile. The New England coyote has been proven to carry wolf DNA, and the redwolf,canis rufus, carries coyote DNA. H.T. Gier, in his book "Coyotes in Kansas" reports to have successfully bred 22 litters of coyote/domestic dog(coydog) hybrids in the laboratory. New Hampshire biologists Walter and Hellenette Silver, conducting research on wild canine hybridization succeeded in breeding 80 assorted canines from coyotes from Co., Wi., and N.H. and domestic dogs. Both Gier and the Silvers report that the hybrid coydogs, like the coyote but unlike the dog were mon-estrus. However the hybrids came into heat 3-4 months earlier than the coyote and the pups were whelped in the middle of the winter. The male hybrid, like the dog, did not assist in rearing the pups. It was concluded that the female hybrid would generally be unsuccessful in nursing and feeding herself and the litter by herself during the winter months. Hope Ryden, in her book "God's Dog" shows a photo of a coyote/black lab cross. A domestic dog will screw anything with a heartbeat and most things without. It is the coyote that is selective. Biologists have found that during periods of population suppression or range expansion when suitable mates are unavailable, coyotes will sometimes lower their standards, kinda like closing time at the bar. This apparently does not occur in normal population densities, under normal conditions. Which is why I asked the original question after thinking about Tom's dog and coyote. Feral dogs are an entirely different subject. My BinL and I called in 2 medium sized dogs running with a coyote about 10 years ago in Rainbow Valley, Az. From an elevated stand we watched them come in from about 200 yards out and we then watched them for another 5 or 6 hundred yards as they departed, and they were definitely together.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 22, 2003 09:01 AM
Good stuff, Rich. Since you hunt very similiar area to what AZ, Danny and I hunt, I'm wondering if you have any supporting observations?
In other words, that event ten years ago, and the account by Tom, they should be worthy of note? And, more often, when dogs and coyotes both appear on a stand, the two groups do not mingle. Can you support that statement?
What I'm getting at, is that people form broad conclusions over small data. Coyotes breed with dogs. Coyotes hunt, and answer a call in the company of dogs. I'd like to put the reported incident in the proper perspective, that it's highly unusual.
Good hunting. LB
By the way, we need to explore this whole issue of DNA, and how it can, positively be identified as coming from one canine, or another. I'm skeptical.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 22, 2003 09:44 AM
Leonard, the proper perspective of the incident is indeed that it is highly unusual, for our area, and that is the point I tried to make along with the reason why it is unusual. Also why coydogs have not become a bastardized sub-species.Although that is the description and premise given by P.S.Gipson.of the evolution of canis rufus.Reports of coydogs are more common in areas of initial coyote incursion and less common in areas with stable populations, like our areas. There is a coydog at a house in the area of the desert we are moving to at the end of this month. When I have the time to knock on their door and talk to them I'll let you know how that one came about.
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Seldom Ever
Knows what it's all about
Member # 185
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posted May 22, 2003 10:22 AM
Leonard,if DNA says it's so,it's so.DNA can't lie.
DNA is a part of my field of work [albeit a small one because I'm not in research].
If DNA patterns lead to a certain conclusion,that is the conclusion,of that I'm certain.
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One Shot,One Kill.
Posts: 293 | From: West Virginia | Registered: Apr 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 22, 2003 12:25 PM
I have read that even the common house dogs have some wolf DNA in them. Is this true? If so, does this prove that poodles interbreed with wolves?Hmmmm
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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