This is topic Cripples in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 19, 2003, 03:21 PM:
I have never seen a cripple running with another coyote or pack. I've seen many crippled or injured adults by themselves but never in the company of others. Does anyone know if coyotes will or will not tolerate a crippled pack member?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 19, 2003, 04:24 PM:
That's an interesting ovservation, Rich. Every one I have encountered has been a single, come to think of it? I wonder if they just can't keep up? Of course, maybe we haven't seen enough to form broad conclusions?
Anybody else?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Crow Woman (Member # 157) on April 19, 2003, 04:43 PM:
Limpy will sometimes travel with one other but for the most part he is on his own.
Crow Woman
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on April 19, 2003, 05:47 PM:
I know for a fact a three legged coyote won't starve to death. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I also remember seeing cripples only by themselves. Maybe other coyotes will not associate with cripples because they can sense something is wrong. Who really knows? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Good Hunting.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 19, 2003, 06:44 PM:
So Sheri, is this Limpy the coyote that you systematically dismantled like that poor knight in Monte Python? Heh heh heh.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on April 19, 2003, 07:25 PM:
Rich, Back in November last year I was with Burton when we took two people out from Seattle. I was watching a cripple when one of our people shot at another dog. That one and two others ran off including the cripple.
This past March I missed a cripple running with two other dogs at the same place. Took one of the healthy ones though. Two weeks later I went back with Crittermisser and called in a pair at the same spot. Missed one with the 450 but ol Crittermisser took the cripple. It was a female.
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on April 19, 2003, 07:25 PM:
When you say cripple Rich, does that include 3 legged coyotes?
Not sure if the following falls under the crippled heading or not. I called a group of 4 a couple years back. It appeared to be two large adults and two younger coyotes. The biggest coyote was the boldest and came in harder than the rest. The others were close behind. I didn't notice anything wrong with any of them till I shot the lead one. The rest of the group bolted and I got one of the smaller ones before they made it out of the small valley. The other large coyote of the group was leading the rest on the way out and I could see now had only three legs. Didn't seem to be hampering it's running ability much so it may not be considered a cripple I guess.
Other than this though, the real crippled up ones I have seen were all by themselves if I remember right. These were usually foot injuries of some kind. Bullet holes in feet or snare or trap injury that made them fall into the "limpy" category. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
These type would definitely affected how fast they traveled and it was alone. Makes sense I suppose.
Take care, Curt
Posted by Crow Woman (Member # 157) on April 19, 2003, 08:05 PM:
So Sheri, is this Limpy the coyote that you systematically dismantled like that poor knight in Monte Python? Heh heh heh.
Yes Rich H... the very same one.
Crow Woman
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on April 19, 2003, 11:25 PM:
Humm, a three legged coyote = one that meet a trap and I've killed a few of them, they seem to do real good with only three legs, thats all I was saying, Good Hunting.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 19, 2003, 11:44 PM:
Well, what I mean is an animal that had no noticable limp, until I went to drag them back. Then I have noticed a few animals with either deformed leg or missing a paw, front or back. In some cases, it looked like a birth defect, and in others, seemed like the foot was left in a trap? But, none of them could be identified as a "cripple" as they ran; no limp. Guess I just haven't seen that? Of course, several of mine were taken at night, when you really don't see much of the legs; just the eyes, and body, if you're lucky. It would be very hard to pick up on a limp, at night.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 20, 2003, 07:08 AM:
AT risk of being anthropomorphic, couldn't one ask if the pack is able to differentiate between a member that is able to pull its own weight around the house as far as being able to contribute to the hunting effort, territorial defense, and the like? Even a gimp that can't hunt but can tend the pups in the absence of the parents is only good for a few weeks out of the year. A couple coyotes with three legs and the like have been cited here, but in most cases, they've not presented with a severe impediment. Maybe coyote culture also believes in the statement, "Ass, gas or grass - nobody rides for free."
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on April 20, 2003, 10:33 AM:
All criples I have found were alone.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 20, 2003, 02:19 PM:
Thinking about it, I don't think I've ever taken a cripple that wasn't alone. At least as far as I knew.
This video clip is a 3 legged coyote. One of her back legs is gone well above the knee. The "stump" was completely furred over, looked like an old injury - and she was an older coyote. Kind of hard to tell from the low-*** clip I made for posting, but when she took off after the first shot, I actually thought she must have been hit because of the odd gate and the relative lack of speed (I was running the camera). Turns out that first shot was a clean miss (which you can see plainly in the video clip), Tim made a nice recovery and dumped her at about 180 yds with his second shot. The clip is about 1.4MB, so be prepared to wait a few minutes if you're on a slow connection.
3 legged coyote
Definitely, she wasn't quite as fast as a 4 legged coyote, but she wasn't exactly slow, either. And, like I said, she was a mature female (I'd guess 4 or 5 years, by the teeth) in excellent condition, and the injury looked to have happened much earlier in her life.
Edit: Now that's odd. The word that got "asterisked" is r-e-s. Considered offensive when used as slang for reservation, perhaps?
- DAA
[ April 20, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: DAA ]
Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on April 20, 2003, 03:23 PM:
What impresses me most is the shooting. There's few things in this life that'll get my respect faster than the kind of shooting I see in that clip! Good going DAA!
Do you think it was the first or second shot that got it?
PS... Somehow we got to direct that kind of shooting at terrorists (muslims)
[ April 20, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 20, 2003, 07:10 PM:
It was definitely the second shot. Took the front corner of her skull off. Strange deal too. It didn't kill her. Not nearly. Just put her in some sort of coma or something. When Tim set her down at the end of that clip, she was still alive as could be. Just asleep. And snoring, loudly.
- DAA
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on April 20, 2003, 08:13 PM:
A little insight here. I am crippled, And you will usually find me alone.
I can keep up with the pack thanks to a 14 mph , Bullet proof tired. Four speed electric custom built off road wheel chair. Also a 650 Honda.
I can protect the pack. Thanks to a Colt Commander, In a bag on the side off the wheel chair.
Can't speak for the Coyote. The main reason you will find me alone. Is I am a mean, Stubborn, Belligerent, Evil tempered. Down right honery old S O B." At least 99% of the time".
I seem to get along great with other of my species who hunt coyotes. ( Uhmm, Wonder what that means).
DAA
I think the way you and Tim shoot. Should be reason to rewrite the current data on Coyotes. You two should be on the list of there natural enemies. Great clip.
Now before any one gets upset here. I AM CRIPPLED. Get use to it. I did, And met a lot of wonderful folks since I wound up this way. A lot of them right here. Hope all of you had a great Easter. Varmit
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on April 20, 2003, 08:52 PM:
I have killed cripples that were alone and others that were paired up with a healthy partner. By crippled I'm talking about coyotes with leg problems. Such as missing part of a leg, or a deformed leg due to injury or possibly a birth defect. I'd think in my part of the country that a coyote pup born with a major defect would have a tough time surviving any length of time or making it to adulthood. I could see how a coyote with a severe injury couldn't keep up with others and would be a complete loner.
Of the coyotes that I have killed the ones with rear leg injuries seemed to move much better than ones with front leg injuries. I guess that only makes more sense anyway.
I had a lone female come into a howl only one time that had a screwed up hind leg. She came in at a slow walk and acted very nervous but in a almost submissive sort of way. She finally stopped about 60 yards out and laid down with her ears down and a look on her face like your pet dog has after being scolded. After inspecting her I could see the problem with her hind leg. I have never had another coyote act this way when coming to a howl. I don't know if her injury made her act in such a manner.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 21, 2003, 03:40 PM:
I can agree with Lonny about the back leg, based on one event I remember clearly.
The coyote had seen our vehicle as we were negotiating a high pass, and took off, flat out. Fortunately, he was lining straight out, and ran into a bullet about two hundred yards away. As these situations go, it wasn't a very difficult shot, in this particular case.
I was very surprised to see the rear leg was sort of stunted, and shrunk up. I don't think he could move the joint, at all?
But, he was running at coyote top speed, no question. I can't remember any other time that a cripple was departing; they were all approaching the call, and usually stopping, at some point. But I have seen a few, missing a front foot, that were running in to the call at an easy lope. A three legged coyote can run, no doubt about it.
Good hunting. LB
Good hunting. LB
Posted by BARRY (Member # 86) on April 22, 2003, 05:17 AM:
Really interesting topic,too bad Major Boddicker or Verne Howey doesn't join in on this one.
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on April 22, 2003, 01:31 PM:
I know who Major Boddicker is, but who is Verne Howey?
Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on April 22, 2003, 04:05 PM:
Interesting topic.
Most of the crippled coyotes that I've run into have all been in sheep country where they've lost limbs due to rifles.
Thinking back over the cripples that I've called in and shot, there doesn't seem to be much of a distinction between crippled coyotes being loners, or hunting with 'packs'. I've seen both.
I called in a pair in January and the female was missing half of her back left leg. She was paired with a (seemingly) completely physically capable coyote. I would assume had she have lived and raised pups that this fall she would be hunting with the whole family group and she would fall into the category of 'cripple.'
The worst injured coyote I have ever killed I called in and shot. He had a grazing bullet wound over the top of his shoulders that looked to be quite old (several months). The bullet had grazed the top of the shoulder blades and taken out some bone and the wound hadn't healed over completely. You could look into the wound and see the shoulder blades after I shot him. He walked with a slight hobble in his gait and had a stomach full of sheep. He coyote responded alone and I didn't see another coyote on that stand.
Posted by BARRY (Member # 86) on April 26, 2003, 06:26 AM:
onecoyte: Verne Howey is a full time coyote hunter in Wyoming. He's been doing it for something like 20 years and he gives seminars at times. He has a video "Calling the Elusive Coyote". He is a very down to earth guy who has killed about 4,000 coyotes, so
he is doing it right. He's the first to admit he doesn't know everything about coyotes and never will, still learning. He is willing to help anyone who wants to learn more and do a better job at calling coyotes.
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on April 26, 2003, 06:13 PM:
BARRY, thank you, now I know. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 26, 2003, 07:21 PM:
....wonder if ol' Verne knows (of) Danny?
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on April 27, 2003, 02:05 PM:
Leonard, I ain't killed 4000 coyotes, ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
but I can double his years of doing it and so can you. "Hey" I got an idea!! Why don't we rent a plane, bet our numbers go up then. I even got a better idea, Frank has a plane, we buy the gas and shoot, he flys LOL, Good Hunting.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 27, 2003, 02:21 PM:
Danny, everybody has an angle, you know that. If I had the type of job where I could devote my efforts to coyote hunting full time during the winter, sure. I have to go for high numbers within a certain span of time, but I only hunt once a month and only seven or eight times per year. The rest of the time, I need to make a living.
Anybody that averages a animal per hour, my hat's off to them. Total career body count indicates a dedication to the pursuit of coyotes that I don't have, or I'd be single....ya know?
You and I don't live in the middle of prime country, but we know where it is. I get my fill once a month, and then some. I'm totally wiped out after a long week-end of nothing but dead coyotes. On the way home, I don't even want to look at another coyote, forever!
That all changes by the time the new moon rolls around again.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 27, 2003, 02:31 PM:
Verne seems like a good guy. Ate dinner with him one night a few years ago, he graciously tried to answer all my stupid questions. Definitely didn't strike me as the type to brag, or an egotist. Just a guy that makes his living killing coyotes, and is willing to answer stupid questions .
- DAA
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on April 27, 2003, 06:57 PM:
DAA, I believe you, the guy is just trying to make a living and I'm sure he is a very nice guy and good at what he does. I think what Leonard was trying to say is at our age, that kind of hunting is out of the question. We do know a few places even Veren would be impressed with I think. Leonard, I didn't keep any of my ex wives because I stayed home from predator hunting or fishing trips, predator hunting can be costly thats for sure. Guess what? I stay home now or Charlene goes with me. Leonard, you're still married to the same gal and for all those years, God bless both of you, you did it the right way, I wish I could say that, It's never too late to start I guess, Good Hunting.
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on April 27, 2003, 08:48 PM:
I hunt for pleasure. Contest hunts and high numbers look like an underpaid or no pay job to me.
Same thing flying. I like to fly many strange airplanes. No way would I ever want to fly for a living. That would just turn flying into a job, not entertainment.
Jack
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 28, 2003, 05:20 AM:
Anyone have a photo of Verne Howey? I think I met him at Sutton, NE one time. If I could see a photo of him, then I would know for sure if we are thinking of same fellow. The Verne I remember, once said that he sights his .22-.250 to hit dead on at fifty yards and then goes hunting.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on April 28, 2003, 07:23 AM:
Is this the real Verne Howey?
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/Greenside/scan0002.jpg
I heard a rumor that he was the poster boy for natgear?
Rich If you still have your January 2001 TPC, Paul Wait did a interview with him.
BTW: Does a coyote wearing a #2 longspring and about 2ft of chain qualify as a cripple?
Dennis
[ April 28, 2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 28, 2003, 10:14 AM:
Greenside,
If the man in your photo is the real Verne Howey, it is not same guy that I saw in Sutton. James Lucero introduced me to this little fellow who looked like he could chew a tree down. Lucero told me that this guy was Verne Howey. The man carried a real plain looking cow horn howler which he used to enter the calling contest there in Sutton. Maybe old James Lucero was joshing me. Who knows? Who will ever know?
Posted by BARRY (Member # 86) on April 28, 2003, 11:31 AM:
Hi Rich,I haven't talked to you for a while. Verne did do some earlier poster boy ads for Natgear,but if this is him,he's wearing contact lenses and not his glasses. I think he said that's the method he uses to sight in his rifles.
[ April 28, 2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: BARRY ]
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