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Author
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Topic: Evolution?
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 20, 2003 03:46 PM
The wolf and the coyote evolved in the late Pleistocene epoch. The domestic dog evolved from the wolf. The oldest breed of domestic dog is the Saluki, about 5000 years. In that short time the dog has under gone some radical changes, say from the Great Dane to the Chihauhau, due to selective breeding. Stock breeders can engineer some heavy changes in just a few generations. My question then: predator calling has become very popular in the last 20 years. Hunters killed 40,000 coyotes in Az in 1997 alone (last year for which records are avaiable). Inexperienced juveniles, the dim, the unfortunate, and the careless are quickly eliminated down here, leaving the smartest and the luckiest to pass along those attributes during breeding season. This is natural selection in fast forward. Coyotes are monestrus, one litter per year, one new generation per year. 20 years and 20 generations of the wise and the educated passing along their genes. Maybe they are smarter than they used to be. Possibly?
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted March 20, 2003 06:46 PM
Rich, I will get back with you tomorrow. It will take me that long to look-up most of the words in your post.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted March 20, 2003 07:08 PM
Rich, In my case, they are getting smarter, And I am getting dumber.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 20, 2003 07:11 PM
Apparently it's a slow process, Rich? Some are still having trouble crossing the highway, safely. Ours are a little smarter than yours; they use the crosswalks....then crawl into the storm drains.
Good hunting. LB
Actually, ours are a little smarter than yours, IMHO. ('course, it's debatable)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 20, 2003 09:18 PM
Ya know Leonard, just don't remember them being that smart. I hunted them in the foothills all around LA and they used to come to the little recorder and teddy bear in droves. When I missed them I would often get a second shot. If I could have hit the broadside of a barn with that bow I would have put the hurt on a very large number.
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20t-n-t
Knows what it's all about
Member # 46
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posted March 20, 2003 09:52 PM
Guys,
I may be just getting older, but I don't remember the coyotes of my youth being so damned smart. Coyotes today, and I don't mean the old ones, we know they are smart or they wouldn't be old, I mean the younger dogs seem a little more leary of the calls. We all laugh and poke fun when we talk about it but think about it,don't you have to work a little harder to call them in these days. I kmow that I do and it makes me think harder than I used to.
I think thats why we all love this so much, its always a challenge and it never gets old.
smote the Yote?
slydog
someone once said: I hunted coyotes for fun for the first few years, the last 25 I have hunted them for revenge. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Teach a kid to hunt and fish and feed them for a lifetime......
Posts: 245 | From: Boise Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 21, 2003 05:55 AM
So whose evolved? More than likely, each of us was introduced to calling coyotes by some version of the same remark..."All you have to do is blow in this end and they come running like they're stupid as all get out." You went out a couple times. Blew through that end. Maybe even turned the thing around and blew through the other end. For some of us, success was fairly quick, and yes, they came running in like they were dumb as mud. Over the years, not only has our technique evolved, but so has our desire to know more about why they act like they do. Our own personal perception of calling, in general, has changed considerably as we've each become better informed and more experienced. For me, I employ a lot of tactics and strategies today that are far, far more complex than those I used in the beginning. I know more about coyotes and it reflects in how I setup and call. Having said that, I may be shooting myself in the foot by making things more complex than they need to be. In any event, I call harder, later in the season, and direct more of my effort toward older, more mature "trophy" class coyotes. In my area, we've been so overwhelmingly decimated by mange that our numbers are just now returning to where they were twenty years ago. So comparing the knowledge level of our coyote now to then is a little like apples and oranges. To compound the problem, Kansas' deer herd have grown considerably and with them has grown the sheer numbers of people in the field. Add to that legions of bird hunters and you quickly see that the coyotes have a lot more exposure to ppl in their environment. Early season coyotes are as easy as ever. They come in in packs and droves to howls. Later, after being jostled around and having their hindquarters splashed with birdshot, they start to lay low, get tight lipped, stay to the deeper core areas and very rarely show themselves in the light of day. Not so much a matter of evolution for me. Just an appropriate conditioned response to a foreign intrusion by pple into their environment.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted March 21, 2003 07:15 AM
I think they are getting smarter.
Or they have one heck of a training program, somewhere near my area.
Is it possible for a call wise female through her caution, while out with her pups to always approach any distress sounds from downwind. And the pups being trained that way as protocol for coming into distress calls. Yet these pups have not been conditioned. It seems to stand to reason that the female pup, when mature would continue the tradition taught to her by her mother. possibly?
although some would disagree with evolution,with the thinking of the full scale evolution rather than the evolving of certain genetic traits which remain constant over three generations, based on prior conditions. So I now use the term pre-re-conditioned response.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted March 21, 2003 07:20 AM
Cdog911. I think you hit the nail on the head.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted March 21, 2003 10:20 AM
In 35 years of calling predators, Ive noticed no dramatic difference in response from either coyotes,fox,bobcats or mt.lion. I have seen periods where numbers were dramatically lower due to mange or parvo or whatever else hits canines, but how they react and come to the call has been fairly consistent. Thats young coyotes, old coyotes and inbetween coyotes. They all can have their fickle and cautious moments, and other times they all stumble in like a pup.
~AzHunter~
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"Never take yourself more serious than your subject"
[ March 21, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posts: 1671 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 21, 2003 01:11 PM
Hey pup...
You'll recognize those training programs when you see them. You'll find them going paw over paw through monkey bars, climbing barricades and walls, and doing these run-do a flip-land on your back with your hands across your chest. Ooops! My mistake. That would be the al Queda and Iraqi special forces training programs. Oh well, coyotes are smarter than Iraqis any old day anyway. Have you guys noticed that our troops are intentionally avoiding playgrounds? Through good training and intel, we know where NOT to go.
But seriously, sorta, you gotta hand it to an animal that (first) recognizes the advantages of using the wind to their benefit, and (second) actually uses it to their tactical advantage, and so well. The fact that coyotes don't just randomly approach at different angles and aspects, relative to wind direction, is strongly indicative that they are capable of learning from experience, possibly from their ma and pa. I personally regard this as one behavioral component that sets the coyote well above others in his biome like deer. They'll wind you if they just happen to be downwind, but for the most part, I don't often see them actually re-route to the downwind side because of "suspicion", for lack of a better term.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 21, 2003 01:15 PM
Hey Rich, for even bringing up the topic of evolution, you are an infidel, a heathen and a pagan. An infiheagan. Infi-what? Infi-Higgins. Now it all makes sense. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ March 21, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted March 21, 2003 02:06 PM
Cdog911-
I have had them reroute and circle downwind, and I have had them do this often. Now that may just be something that occurs in my area, or that I am just getting in alot of mature or call-wise coyotes, but it does happen to me alot.
Now like I was saying I just thought that possibly the mother if call wise could of taught that incidently to her pups, by just going to the distress sounds that way. If they learned to smell what was there if at all possible, before sight then why wouldn't that be the case. Possibly?
later pup
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted March 21, 2003 02:38 PM
I don't think a coyote "recoginizes" the tactical,or any other advantage of heading downwind, any more than it recognizes the physiological advantage of taking its next breath....it's something they just do. We all pretty much agree most coyotes will head to the downwind, at least at some point, that may be from farther away than we spot them coming in, or it might be 30 yards. I have had many, many coyotes, come from there to here like they were on a string, but usually they are trotting to the downwind side. They have the genetic need to smell what it is that is screaming in its death throes, as well as who else might have beat them to the dinner bell. All this is due to 10,000 years of genetic evolution, not 25 years of slowly increasing numbers of predator hunters in the field:) They generally use their senses in the order of their acuity, they hear first, have need to smell next, then use the least acute of their senses, their eyesight to verify dinner:) As for deer, I don't know about your midwestern whitetails, but our little western cousins the Coues(cows) whitetail have very keen noses. They usually lay up just below a saddle or ridge line so they can constantly check the updrafts and thermals coming from the canyons below them for danger. Ive had many a fine buck wind me and scramble out of canyon much farther away than I care to take a shot.
~AzHunter~
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" Most coyotes act the same, in most situations"
Posts: 1671 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted March 21, 2003 02:49 PM
Yeah, but...
I have been on places that the owner, has informed me that there has not been a coyote caller on. Ok. is mostly private and this area that I am refering to is definitely private. Now I am not nieve enough to believe that they couldn't of been called before, but I think that the land owner was right. These spots are the ones that the coyotes come straight in and they are the mature ones. I was blown away as I set up for the downwind and low and behold they come with the wind. Just a little more on why I am thinking the way that I am. I couldn't ask them, so I don't know for sure, it was positive that they hadn't been communicating with the coyotes of the other areas that I hunt.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 23, 2003 02:36 PM
Pup, I was referring to the deer being less wind-savvy then the coyotes. In fact, if I'm using howling, I see a very, VERY high pecentage of coyotes circling to the downwind side before committing.
AZ- using the wind to their advantage is pretty much a deer thing, and I've seen countless examples of WT's bedding in areas (i.e., downwind side of shelter belts and ridges) where the wind back eddies and where they can monitor one direction with their nose, and the rest of the kingdom with their eyes. But, I don't observe the frequency of actively working the wind to their advantage by willfully traveling certain routes with the wind direction being a determinant in their choice of this route versus that one. But, then again, one has to keep in mind that a coyote responding to a caller is different in its mannerisms then a deer just randomly wandering about its home range. If deer responded to calls like coyotes, one could compare the two. Although I have seen rutting bucks come to rattling with just as much chutzpah as a hungry coyote. In fact, being witness to that is even more exciting, since a deer may very well attack you.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted March 23, 2003 03:48 PM
I have a hunting partner whose dad relates the following experience.
He was out hunting partridge and spotted a family group of coyotes; he sat down and started his distress cries. A pup broke away from the family group and started his approach. The adult chased the pup down and proceeded to kick the young coyote’s behind.
It would be easy to conclude that in this situation the parent coyote was teaching her young not to respond to the call. However, I was not there, the adult coyote may have had visual contact, or some other conditioned response to make her act in this manner. Possibly, the coyote was too young to wander that far from the group and the adult rounded the youngster up instinctively, with no regard to the call.
Hard evidence that adults warn their young about common sounds used by us, NO, but it sure is interesting.
[ March 23, 2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Bryan J ]
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 23, 2003 04:08 PM
Hard for me to speculate on that one, Bryan. Besides what you mention, it could be a boundary issue, although it seems more likely that it would be handled in a different way; a simple warning bark, perhaps?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
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posted March 23, 2003 05:50 PM
Interesating thread. I recall one time hunting south of here. We made a stand at night and even before we started calling we saw eyes.
I turned on the call and the coyotes started going the other way. It was a whole family of em'. Must have seen six or seven sets of eyes and they all headed out of Dodge as soon as the call was turned on.
I tried every trick in the book including hand calls to bring them in but all I would get was a quick glance as they headed out.
These coyotes probly were educated but none-the-less it stands to reason that a process of natural selection would make coyotes wary of any call. I've thought for years that this is a very real possibility.
After all, they are a very adaptable creature.
Frank
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
Posts: 644 | From: North Dakota | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 23, 2003 05:58 PM
I've never seen or heard of a coyote thrashing a pup. Lehner in"Coyote Communication" said a grimace and a woof are all he has observed as being necessary to discipline pups. BTW on the evolution topic, Hope Ryden quoted someone, a biologist or researcher, as stating that the coyote is capable of "observational learning", another trait that could be enhanced by natural selection.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 25, 2003 06:27 AM
Az: "I have seen periods where numbers were dramatically lower due to mange or parvo or whatever else hits canines, but how they react and come to the call has been fairly consistent. Thats young coyotes, old coyotes and inbetween coyotes. They all can have their fickle and cautious moments, and other times they all stumble in like a pup."
Exactly!
Wait a second.....wasn't it you that said "most coyotes act the same, in most situations"?
Nah, that must have been someone else.
Az: "We all pretty much agree most coyotes will head to the downwind, at least at some point, that may be from farther away than we spot them coming in, or it might be 30 yards. I have had many, many coyotes, come from there to here like they were on a string, but usually they are trotting to the downwind side."
I agree that coyotes will "usually" circle downwind IF the habitat is convenient for them to do so. Habitat certainly plays a role in whether or not they circle downwind.
In the open country I call, it's rare for a coyote to circle down wind if they came from directly up wind. To circle downwind out of gun range IN MANY CASES, they would have to make a pretty wide circle out in the open.
In the habitat you hunt in, from what I have seen on your video and while hunting east of Yuma, I am sure it's quite common for them to circle downwind as it's convenient for them in many cases. No different than in a tall ocean of sage in Wyoming
Az: "They have the genetic need to smell what it is that is screaming in its death throes, as well as who else might have beat them to the dinner bell."
I agree, IF it's convenient for them to do so.
I consider this behavior a "basic instinct" for survival?
Az: "All this is due to 10,000 years of genetic evolution, not 25 years of slowly increasing numbers of predator hunters in the field:)"
Excactly!
Az: "They generally use their senses in the order of their acuity, they hear first, have need to smell next, then use the least acute of their senses, their eyesight to verify dinner:)"
Exactly!
Have a nice day Vic and thank you for the opportunity to agree with you for once. Hehehe!
Not that it would matter to you but I find myself agreeing with you quite a bit.
~SH~
[ March 25, 2003, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted March 25, 2003 08:55 AM
Cdog911-
I think that you made a very good point, in that when you use howling that the percent that come in down wind is higher.
Maybe the realism of the howl evoked a conditioned response to come in downwind.
Maybe the young coyote, has learned the lesson of being cautious and through caution chose to come in to the howl downwind. Now if one of his compadres was running with him another time, a female and she followed him into a howl downwind, and found out they had avoided danger by doing so. Then she raised her pups in the same manner, because of her conditioned response then would that be a passed down conditioned response? OR pre-re conditioned response? Bascially the developement of a species through natural selection.
Also if this happened year before last , in an area that didn't use to be hunted, but due to the increasing number of hunters in the field a hunter choose to go to this place( further out) is it not natural selection because it didn't take place over a long enough time span?
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted March 25, 2003 05:18 PM
People can say all they want about coyote behavior and what they believe to be true. But I'm here to tell you all.....Who the hell really knows what a coyote is thinking? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Nobody except the coyote, ![[Wink]](wink.gif) Now thats a fact, Good Hunting.
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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trappnman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 168
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posted March 28, 2003 08:37 AM
"All this is due to 10,000 years of genetic evolution, not 25 years of slowly increasing numbers of predator hunters in the field:)"
25 generations are more than enough to change a ton of characteristics in canines or any other species. Dog breeders pretty much agree that 3 generations is the key- trends and characterisics are set or lost in three generations- for the most part- sports are always an occurance.
Consider these two "facts"- In a Nebraska study, it was shown that over just a few years, hunters naturally shooting birds with quick flushing traits over birds that held tight or ran was producing a pheasant that preferred to hold and run rather than quick flush. A natural genetic compensation to the "new" predator.
I used to be a big beagle man. Raised, hunted trialed hundreds of hounds over the years I was involved in the sport. In my teens and 20s, all my friends owned beagles and our season ran from Sept to March- and we hunted very hard. After a few years, we noticed areas where we used to take 6-8 rabbbits each trip through, for years- suddenly produced 1 or 2 each time. Yet tracks, snow tunnels, chewings, droppings- everything- showed just as high a rabbit population as in the boom years. We had eliminated, in a few generations, the rabbits that had the genetic traits to be active in the daylight, to stay above ground, to run before the hounds. These were of course the rabbits we shot. All that were left were the nocturnal, burrow dwelling rabbits- producing more of the same.
And look at deer- area deer management has changed the genetic structure and characteristic of the deer quite a bit- over a very few years and in unfenced natural areas.
So back to canines- as I said, in 3 years you can really change the genetic characteristics even breeding purebreed beagles to beagles.
How long has serious calling be going on in the western areas- 30 years? 50 years? A lot of generations- and hunting the same areas year after year certainly is reducing the coyotes that have the traits to respond to a call a certain way. The bold ones, the angry ones, the curious ones- all eliminated from the gene pool. What remains are the shy ones, the ones that have the natural traits to hold back, to not respond.
Natures way of insuring that she doesn't have her eggs all in one basket (Gosh I love cliches- they are so true, don't cha know).
I don't think it can be denied that eliminating certain traits (or more accurately reducing the breeding % of coyotes having this trait) will have a genetic effect of a coyote population.
Now does this mean smarter? Maybe- but it really just means different. The coyote you were hunting (or trapping I believe) is not the same coyote you hunted 30 years ago. Coyotes and every other species are constantly adapting- not the species traits themselves (in other words a coyote is still a coyote) but in smaller survivual traits.
My 2 cents anyway.
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Your American Heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
Posts: 40 | From: Mn | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 28, 2003 09:11 AM
I believe that evolution has little if anything to do with it, and genetics is probably pretty much a buzz word when we talk about coyotes rabbits, pheasants and deer seeming smarter. It is rather, a learned behaviour. There is a way to prove my idea, or maybe disprove it though. Rob a bunch of new borns, or "hatched" critters and place them in a safe environment for a few months and then turn em loose in the fall. The results would be a lot of dumb critters being killed real quick I think.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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