This is topic Alot to learn. in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 19, 2003, 01:45 PM:
 
I went to Phoenix, and refreshed some acquaintances over the past few days, and left with some new friends.
I traveled 15 1/2 hours on Friday, arrived in Phoenix at 9:30 pm. I got the pregnant wife and 3 1/2 year old daughter checked into the motel. I received a call from Rich Higgins making sure I had arrived safely(what a great guy).
Rich picked me up at a quarter to six the next morning. That is where the learning begins, I came out to learn something so I paid attention to as many details as I could about the way Rich and Tyler handled themselves during the day. From the way he drove to the way he picked a stand etc. Man do I have alot to learn. I was amazed at the way Tyler and Rich nonverbally communicate, I guess you develope that sense after you hunt with your dad from the age of a year and a half. One thing about "sleepy" , he knows the tendancies of coyotes, and he has a great teacher at his fingertips. I am in need of some practice in the full use of my diaphram.
We called in three coyotes on saturday , I got two of them on film. Both would of been kills, if that were the objective.
The next thing that I was to learn is that even though you say you live in Phoenix you are closer to Tucson, lol. not really Matt.
We went to W@W house and had some of the finest BBQ that I have had, mess on the secrets of howling, I want his secret receipe for BBQ sauce man was that awesome, Matt thanks for the dinner and the take home sauce. After dinner I bored the natives with some footage that I had gathered.
On Sunday Rich and Tyler had other commitments and Robb graciously took me out for you guessed it more instruction. You know I never sat in a spot all weekend that I didn't think would produce a coyote, all though not all did, I thought that all should.
Anyhow Robb took me out and we messed with some native callers on the first stand, with that stand being a bust we moved on down the road.
Now the weather was a bit tropic, as it would spit on us every now and then, which is a beautiful thing in a dry climate. On the next stand we sat down Robb proceed with his series and He called up one that came in behind us at 35 yds, I let the triple duece fly and Robb grinned and continued with the music and I be danged if another coyote didn't come in. I shot that one too, at 56 yds. A double, Well I could call it a day right there, but we didn't. I must add that it was a full moon over the weekend, if any weren't aware, and it is late in the year as far as numbers go. Not exactly the best time of year to get very many.
The next stand is my turn. Don't you just hate that It is kinda like giving a speech to somebody you don't know, and if you don't get one in you look like an idiot, and to my ear Rich and Robb sound like finely tuned instruments in the hands of a skilled musicans and I well, I pretty much just kinda of sing along. Well it was my turn so off I go. I got one up (pretty close) , but we didn't get him shot, but we sent him on his way Okie style with lead and smoke in the air. lol.
I then got a course on skinning, I think I made a "B" lol. and I got a great view of some Az. countryside. You know sometimes you meet a person and they are exactly the way you envisioned them.

thanks guys and Mrs. W@W, for the great time and hospitality, I have alot to practice now. I hope that you have made a new friend as I feel that I have made some new friends. I will be seeing you in the fall or rather early winter. If you are ever in the area, or just want to come out just holler.

Thanks again for your time and lessons, they won't go to waste.

later pup/Jim

I did not mention what I learned about howling from Rich as I am not in the position to defend my statements at this time.
 

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Posted by WolverineAtWork (Member # 23) on March 19, 2003, 03:49 PM:
 
Thanks Pup, my wife and kids enjoyed the heck out of your family. Youngest daughter had a fit when we told her Tyler and Rich went home. She was having a blast w/ him. We thorougly enjoyed your company.

My wife and I agreed, next time you guys come out, screw the motel, stay with us. (Onis too) As long as you guys don't mind staying in BFE as Rich so eloquently described. hehe..

And don't down-play your video footage. I still chuckle everytime I think of "the Blair Coyote Project".

BTW, the sauce is a family secret, but like I told you, those jars have free refills. Just let me know when you run out.
 

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Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 19, 2003, 06:11 PM:
 
I'm jealous PUP,

I chated with Rich Monday and got His version, LOL, I liked yours very much and they were very close. Rich, Tyler and W@W are guys that I would like to spend a few days huntin with. For me what makes the hunt, besides shootin coyotes, Is the people that you spend your time with. I've not had the plesure of meeting any of the guys YET,But I hope to and soon. I seem to learn something everytime I hunt with someone new.

From the sounds of things you had a good trip. I'm glad for ya.

Later / Slydog
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 19, 2003, 07:31 PM:
 
If you feel like e-mailing what you learned, I'm dave@rmvh.com. Won't make you defend anything, I promise .

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 19, 2003, 08:23 PM:
 
I also talked to Rich. He explained to pup, the exact meaning of the 127 known coyote vocalizations, and regional variations, and to answer with a yip-group howl, or a yip warning bark, or a yip-interogation howl....depending.

Good hunting. LB


 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 19, 2003, 09:13 PM:
 
Pup's visit was a little different than the way it reads. Pup's a big bear of a man, very comfortable with himself which makes you comfortable with him. Besides being good company he's a very experienced caller which is obvious from the footage on the good video he filmed and was kind enough to donate to me. He has the enthusiasm for calling that makes a windy day under a full moon during denning season with hikers, bikers and horsetrailors busting our stands alot of fun.(If anyone can think up any other excuses I would be grateful. I only called in 3 coyotes on 7 stands.) We showed him a couple of things that we do a little differently that he's going to work with. Dave, come down and bring your camera. Leonard, you're just full of oats(processed) lately. You should come over and work off some of that orneryness. I've invited you before, Slydog. If you do come down we will pick up W@W over in BFE and call some of his critters.

[ March 19, 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by WolverineAtWork (Member # 23) on March 20, 2003, 03:01 PM:
 
He also taught me how to tell exactly what it was that brought the coyote in, just by looking into his eyes. Some kinda Jedi Mind trick.

Seriously though, I'll call w/ anyone that comes out. I may even be convinced to come out to the "Rich" end of town. After all, I've still got to see the cow in action.

Pup, I've been hanging out w/ Robb and talking w/ Rich for some time now, and I always learn something new everytime I go out. If they don't teach me, the coyotes we call in do.

I've got to get out and scout some honey holes to pay Robb back for all the one's he's shown me.. hehe..

[ March 20, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: WolverineAtWork ]
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 21, 2003, 06:50 AM:
 
W@W, Yeah, I had to swear an oath, or ride around with a blindfold.
I learn something new everyday.
You guys get a chance to come up, come on and I'll try to return the favor.

later pup
 

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Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on March 21, 2003, 07:49 AM:
 
Pup. I know you had a good trip. I turned green reading about it. After driving 15 1/2 hours you have made me feel a little guilty. So guilty I am going to divulge one of my Most Secret, Secrets. There are two secrets. The other will go to my grave with me, And stay there millions of years after I am dust( I'll bet Leonard cant figure that one out).

Instead of driving so far. Just before making a stand. I call the Guru on my cell phone. I then suspend the phone dead center of my chest. Rich chants incantations directly into my chest. Mystical sounds flow from my call. Coyotes bound forth with total abandon. It seems if there only purpose is to have a spiritual relation with a 75 gr V-Max.

No need for the rest of you to try this. The line will be busy.

Super secret II, is so secret. My computer has a program that will not let me print it.

Pup, Glad you had such a wonderfull trip. When I win the Texas Lotto. I am going to bring all of you down . Well except for DAA. He shoots to damn good.

[ March 21, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: varmit hunter ]
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 21, 2003, 10:55 AM:
 
varmit hunter,

I think that you have got it. I mean on both the "force is with you" and the cell phone.

Technology is far enough that we could technically have Rich with us on every stand.
I followed the line of thinking of some of those here that "questioned" everything and the only thing that wasn't questioned was studies done with radio telemetry. We could get the ADC to collar all the coyotes , then we could get Rich to locate them on the grid, tell us where to sit, and to call the appointed number and he could then call the stand and monitor the movement of the coyotes at the same time. This would also give us a true unquestionable study on the effects of different howls. This would also help with the ADC as they would just have to locate the dens in the spring and put a chip( collars would need adjusted) on each pup. Better yet if the Adc had their own satelite and ray gun, they could just control the population at the end of each season as needed.

?????where in the crap did all that come from, talk about no fun, yes I am on my way to wash out my mouth and sit in the corner. Where I will contemplate the error in my ways. lol..

just a laugh
later pup
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 21, 2003, 01:29 PM:
 
Late this past summer, I was out doin' some howlin' and I bumped this big brown coyote from a ditch and watched him go into a field of standing milo. The angle was bad for me so I exited, circled the section and made my apporach from a more calling-friendly direction. I knew he was in there, but couldn't get him to come in. I had my cell on my hip and actually considered calling Rich for some man-on-the-spot advice.

And, pup, you post made me think of a Bass Pro catalog I saw yesterday, on the cover of which was this gadget that Humminbird makes now that looks like a portable DVD player and a bathtub toy. You put the "unmanned drone" on your pond and control it from the control stick mounted with the LED screen. This thing's a fish locator for use by people who fish from the dock or the shoreline. Shows some guys standing there with his young son showing him how inept you can be as an outdoorsman and still have fun. What a waste. If ya need something like that to find fish, you're so stupid, you don't even know HOW to fish.

Does anyone know of something like this for locating coyote? Wouldn't it be nice to have an RC plane with a FLIR camera mounted on that you could fly out over the place you want to hunt and locate/identify any coyotes in the area without having to waste your precious time with just plain old tryin' first?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 21, 2003, 04:51 PM:
 
Does anyone know of something like this for locating coyote? Wouldn't it be nice to have an RC plane with a FLIR camera mounted on that you could fly out over the place you want to hunt and locate/identify any coyotes in the area without having to waste your precious time with just plain old tryin' first?

I admit that I have daydreamed about being towed behind a truck in a parasail. LB
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on March 21, 2003, 09:50 PM:
 
Maybe you could rent one of those military RC spy planes.They ARE called "predator" drones you know.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 25, 2003, 06:00 AM:
 
pup: "I followed the line of thinking of some of those here that "questioned" everything and the only thing that wasn't questioned was studies done with radio telemetry."

I followed the mentality of some of those here that never question the logic behind others theories. Now I know that when a coyote stops at 50 yards and will come no further, it's a result of being outside the "core area". Heck, and here I thought a coyote simply stopped at a particular vantage point to determine the source of the sound. Silly me!

To think that I once believed that most adult coyotes spend most of their days well within their territories where they couldn't hear the calls unless the caller was also within their territory.

I guess the fact that roughly 60% of the population being pups is irrelevant to this new found territorial behavior.

I'm so glad I have finally seen the light!

I guess we all have "alot to learn".

~SH~

[ March 25, 2003, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 25, 2003, 07:59 AM:
 
Why Hello Wiley E--

There is that wonderful agitator that we have all grown to love. I wonder how many times you have been compared to that little ball in the can of spray paint.
I am glad that you can take a jab now and then. If you didn't notice there was a just for laughs note at the end.
I have come to the conclusion that I must of done one of three things to you in a former life.
#1. Slap the everloving crap out of you.
#2. Messed around with your woman.
#3. Stole your thesis on coyote behavior at Acme U.
I have don't feel the need to go into your circular questioning again. However I will show your circular reasoning therory, or Questioning behaviors to you.

Wiley E-Now I know that when a coyote stops at 50 yards and will come no further, it's a result of being outside the "core area".

This statement is made refering back to my original post , wherein you were questioning whether or not I had a clue about what a coyote looked like.

Wiley E.-Heck, and here I thought a coyote simply stopped at a particular vantage point to determine the source of the sound. Silly me!

Now I know that this is where the spit hits the ground and wonderful quotes are made. But does the coyote really have the vantage point?

A coyote that stops at 50 yds is not in the advantage unless, it is on the other side of a brushy creek that is on the edge of that coyotes core area, which the coyote knows will make him/her hard to spot, from my vantage point. Then that coyote has the advantage/or rather a vantage point.

See what I mean?

Regardless, Scott it was good to hear from you.

later pup
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2003, 05:31 PM:
 
Scott, invite pup up to SD. He has gun, will travel. Your personal charm will win him over, not to mention your skill, which will astound him!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 25, 2003, 11:52 PM:
 
Hey pup,

If your ever in my neck of the woods or lack there of, I would consider it an honor to have you help me hunt some Idaho dogs. I have over a hundred and thirty thousand acres of private ground that I have soul hunting rights to and yesterday I may have added another 15 thousand to that. If you ever want to come up and hunt just e-mail me or give me a call.

E-mail: ravenarr1@aol.com
Cell # 208 841-5554

Slydog / Dic
 

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Posted by Crow Woman (Member # 157) on March 26, 2003, 06:54 AM:
 
South Dakota??!!?? Someone lives in South Dakota ?? Another blonde moment brought to you by Clairol! I just gotta tell ya something, when I decided to pack my jeep up and drive to Montana and back, South Dakota was the state that I fell in love with the most! If I ever win the lottery or come into some money, I will be back to that state in a heart beat! Oh, Wiley E, I'm just sick I tell ya, sick, green, envious and all that stuff ! I left my heart in South Dakota!

Light Dawned on Marble Head,
Crow Woman
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 26, 2003, 06:58 AM:
 
20t-n-t,
Thanks for the invite, I would love to come up and hunt with you, I will e-mail you and also give you a call, so that we can start scheduling a date. I believe the honor will be all mine though. My wife has family somewhere in Idaho, so I don't think that it will be too hard to persuade her. lol.

Leonard,
I hope that I do not come across as portraying, that Wiley doesn't know how to eradicate coyotes. I know that there are things that I can learn from Wiley, if presented in the right environment. I hate for Wiley to change the way he posts now, as that would not be his character. Sometimes he comes across as wiping with 34grit paper, but as I am learning , tact is somewhat of a pipedream when communicating with him. I would like an invite, as that would be awesome!!

later pup
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 26, 2003, 08:32 AM:
 
Turn the tables Pup, a dog fights best in his own backyard, remove the advantage from wileys offer, and have him come and hunt some of your Okie coyotes:) You give that little fart the upper hand and hunt his country, his way, and I think it would be like tying two cats tails together and throwing them over a clothesline:):)I would want him in MY backyard, thus removing the constricts of you having to get along with him, but him having to get along with you! Hell who knows, you might end up getting along:)

~AzHunter~

----------------------

"Most coyotes act the same, in most situations"
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 26, 2003, 08:53 AM:
 
pup,

I just love the way you have assumed the moral high ground here. LOL!

Let me see if I have this correct, it's OK to throw a harmless jab now and then but a harmless response to a harmless jab now and then is not OK?

Is that the new ground rules?

pup: "There is that wonderful agitator that we have all grown to love."

"agitator".....I like that!

I'm sure "theory challenges" can get agitating.

"We" have all???

Am I to assume that YOU BELIEVE you speak for all forum readers?

My private emails would suggest otherwise.

I must have missed the election. Oh well, you get my vote for forum spokesperson because along with leadership comes accountability for statements and that's certainly what I am after.

yup, you guessed it, another harmless jab in response to your harmless jab.

Don't ya hate it when that happens?

pup: "I have come to the conclusion that I must of done one of three things to you in a former life."

Why would I be surprised that you have reached yet another false conclusion?

Oops, did it again!

pup: "I have don't feel the need to go into your circular questioning again."

I can understand that, not everyone has the level of self confidence necessary to allow their coyote calling theories to be publicly scrutinized.

Wiley E (previous): "Now I know that when a coyote stops at 50 yards and will come no further, it's a result of being outside the "core area"."

pup (in response): "This statement is made refering back to my original post, wherein you were questioning whether or not I had a clue about what a coyote looked like."

Pup, please provide the statement that will back this allegation. Show us where I was "questioning whether or not you had a clue what a coyote looked like". Prove to us that you don't just make this stuff up as you go.

The posts are still there.

Let's see if this dog will hunt.

No unrelated statements, now! You made the allegation, now back it up!

pup: "But does the coyote really have the vantage point?"

Or could it be that the coyote simply stopped at this particular spot simply to determine the source of the sound?

If I remember correctly, research has shown that coyotes can detect the origination of a sound to within 30' at a half mile. My observations of occasionally calling one series on a stand then watching coyotes respond, would suggest that this theory is "fairly close" to accurate in "many" situations IN THIS AREA UNDER THESE CONDITIONS.

Or could it be that this particular coyote simply stopped when he "SAW" what appeared to be the source of the sound?

As Vic has pointed out, and he is correct, a coyote uses their eyesight last in many hunting situations to determine their prey. Kudos to Vic on that observation I might add. I have also seen where they doubted their eyes but trusted their hearing. Under most situations, they almost never doubt their nose.

pup: "A coyote that stops at 50 yds is not in the advantage unless, it is on the other side of a brushy creek that is on the edge of that coyotes core area, which the coyote knows will make him/her hard to spot, from my vantage point. Then that coyote has the advantage/or rather a vantage point."

Who said anything about the coyote not being "in the advantage"?

You really do make some of this stuff up as you go don't you?

What I said was, "I thought a coyote simply stopped at a particular vantage point to determine the source of the sound."

I would love to hear you back your "core area" theory on why this particular coyote stopped where it did.

Consider:

1. 60% of most coyote populations are non territorial pups and yearlings.

2. Adult coyote territories change seasonally based on hunting pressure, prey availability, coyote population, weather, etc.

3. According to numerous radio telemetry studies (proof) most territorial adult coyotes spend their days well within their territories. With that in mind, wouldn't it be safe to assume that in "MANY" cases you would probably have to be within their territory for them to hear the sound in the first place?

Sorry for being logical!

So come on pup, step up to the plate and defend your "core area" theory.

Before you question my motive for challenging you, let me save you the time. If you prove me wrong, I learn something in the process. If you prove me right, you learn something in the process. Either way, everyone else learns something in the process or reassures themselves of something they already believed.

That, my friend, is my only motive for asking.

It's been enjoyable exchanging pleasantries with you again pup!

Have a wonderful day!

Crow Woman,

I'm glad you liked S.D. Our official tree is the REA pole. LOL!

The next time you drive through S.D., take hwy 44. With the exception of some of the man made sights on the reservations, that is where you learn to appreciate the beauty of S.D. Hwy 44 certainly beats the bare pastures and crops along I-90. The Cheyenne River valley, the Badlands loop, and the Missouri River at Chamberlain are probably the highlights of I-90 for most people.

A friend of mine is a highway patrolman. He stopped someone once and they asked when they would be getting out of the Badlands when they hadn't even gotten to the Badlands yet. LOL!

Leonard,

Do I detect a note of sarcasm? LOL!

Your invitation is still there Leonard.

Surprised that you would know so much about me from such a short visit in Globe?

I usually save my judgement of anyone for when I meet them in person. I don't put much stock in computer evaluations anymore because I have been proven wrong so many times.

Nasa is a classic example. I have met few people that were as friendly and accomodating in person and I would never have gathered that from his posts. Let me explain, in his posts it appeared that his expectations would be high. That was not the case. He was appreciative just to have someone take the time to teach his son about coyotes and coyote calling knowing that success would come at a day of the coyote's chosing and not ours.

So much for computer evaluations.

~SH~

[ March 26, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 26, 2003, 09:24 AM:
 
Az: "Turn the tables Pup, a dog fights best in his own backyard, remove the advantage from wileys offer, and have him come and hunt some of your Okie coyotes:)"

Why does so much of what you say always relate to fighting?

Is that how you usually deal with those people that don't exactly fit your mold of how you think others should be ON A COMPUTER?

Az: "You give that little fart the upper hand and hunt his country, his way, and I think it would be like tying two cats tails together and throwing them over a clothesline:)"

Little fart huh?

Ok, little fart it is!

You sure are better at dishing it out than you are at taking it aren't you? LOL!

Why would it be like tying two cats tails together and throwing them over a clothesline?

Don't tell me you were one of those kids that actually used to do that.

Az: "I would want him in MY backyard, thus removing the constricts of you having to get along with him, but him having to get along with you! Hell who knows, you might end up getting along:)"

I already fed the ravens in your back yard.

Talk to Joe Melton from Yuma sometime about our calling expedition. He's trapped and called coyotes for many years. A great guy. I think he's even on the Az game commission now.

It sure was different not seeing them come from a further distance in many cases and having to shoot them at closer range, I'll certainly grant you that. We did ok for the short time I was there.

From what I hear, your a pretty good shot Vic. I suppose calling in areas of heavier cover would require some pretty good shooting.

Have a good one Vic!

~SH~ (i.e. "little fart")

[ March 26, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 26, 2003, 09:34 AM:
 
Wiley, I'm very glad you have a thick skin and are in command of what is USUALLY impeccable logic FOR YOUR AREA.LOL. The board quiets down way too much when you're not around.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 26, 2003, 09:50 AM:
 
BigBark and Littlefart on Arizona calling safari.
Good Grief!!! Sounds like a good title for a book.
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 26, 2003, 10:48 AM:
 
Wiley E-

My bad. I do not speak for the board, nor did I intend to. I am sorry Leonard.

I do feel honored that you and your buddies are talking about me behind my back via email. I must of touched a nerve when I didn't roll over and wet myself when approached by you.

Your other questions are just bunk questions, and in which and through which, in your great teaching manner, which has thousands flocking to hear one of your great oracles, you imply whether or not I have a clue.

As I have stated I'm not going down that road again. I'm not learning from it, and your not teaching.

Figure out another method and get a little tact and then we'll give it a shot.

You stated that the coyote had the vantage point. I questioned whether he did or not.
The dictionary describes vantage as having the advantage.

I dont think that a coyote that stops broadside in the open while I have my gun ready as having the vantage point.

NOw on the other hand , the coyote in whose territory I was in , that stopped on the edge of the creek, at the edge of his/her, core area. Core area being in that coyotes territory. That coyote had the vantage or rather advantage.

Once again Wiley, I don't have anything to prove,or sell. Our whole relationship had been established on, and exists of, you questioning my question, and belittling my abilities? I don't get it. I am begining to think that there is no means to resolve the matter.

I'll tell you what , either you come down or invite me up so that we can settle this face to face. That way if we don't get it worked out and find some way for us to properly communicate, then we'll let the one speaking from the ground be determined as the looser, and will forever be declared as wrong. Fair enough?

AZ, I did offer to have Scott come down. He scoffed at me, by belittling my abilities.


Rich Cronk,
Are you making light of my effort, to learn more about coyotes and thanking the guys for the trip?

later pup
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 26, 2003, 11:22 AM:
 
Pup,
I wasn't refering to you at all sir. The "BigBark" remark was meant for someone else entirely. I know that you are looking for answers and I think that you know I will help you whenever I can. That is the problem with computer talking. A man can get the wrong impression very easily. I am having a little tounge in cheek fun over here Pup. Take a look at this smile.
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 26, 2003, 12:37 PM:
 
Rich,

Ditto, on the easy to get a wrong impression, thus the direct question .


later pup
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2003, 04:43 PM:
 
Scott, I was not being sarcastic. I know that pup has traveled to Arizona to hunt with Rich, and that's a long drive. I was just speculating that he might also drive north, for the same reason, to learn.

I've met Az, and I have met Wiley. They are evenly matched, physically. Therefore, if Scott's a little fart....do the math.

(actually, they are both average height and build)

Now, NASA? He's a big boy, and very friendly.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 26, 2003, 04:59 PM:
 
my apologies Pup, I didn't realize you had extended the olive branch, at least you made the offer. You can't be buddies with everyone, some personalities just don't mix, I think you have crossed paths with one of them. You either have to agree to disagree, or bear the constant frustration of the circular conundrum he poses with each new question you ask.

~AzHunter~

--------------------

"Never take yourself more serious than you subject"
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 26, 2003, 05:06 PM:
 
Ah Leonard , who are we kidding? Do you actually think that he would offer to hunt with me?
Why would he? He has nothing to gain by showing me anything. He knows that I really don't have "theories", but lots of questions and things I would like to try. He also knows that I will ask lots of questions and that is where the rift starts. He is afraid of what I might ask, i.e, which distress call do you use? That one went unanswered or so he thinks. I have yet to hear "I don't know, possibly that could happen I guess". While I have yet to prove my "theories", I have yet to see hard proof from him that they don't exist. I just think that if you want to learn and you are really a student of the coyote, then you have got to try some new stuff. I believe this enough to make a few road trips, to learn how others hunt. It is not like I don't have coyotes here to hunt. I like to see and hear what other hunters have to say and how they go about hunting coyotes.

The only thing that I know he likes is
Who knows, who will ever know?

Oh yeah I forgot, Any ol' howl will do.

Great place to hang out,

later pup

[ March 26, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: pup ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 26, 2003, 06:37 PM:
 
TO PUP ONLY!

pup: "I do feel honored that you and your buddies are talking about me behind my back via email."

Recap:

pup (previous): "There is that wonderful agitator that we have all grown to love."

Wiley (in response): "Am I to assume that YOU BELIEVE you speak for all forum readers? My private emails would suggest otherwise."

Pup listen carefully, the point I was trying to make in regards to private emails was that, according to private emails I have received CONCERNING THE VARIOUS COYOTE CALLING ISSUES WE DISCUSS HERE (not you personally), not everyone agrees with your view points so you obviously do not speak for all forum members when you state "WE HAVE ALL".

Understand?

I did not mean to suggest that there is some private email "conspiring" going on.

If I have anything to say about you, I will say it to you here in response to your statements.

Specifically, I receive private emails that agree that A PERSON cannot credit a certain coyote behavioral reaction to a particular factor without considering all the other factors that can affect that same reaction. Your name wasn't even mentioned in these discussions.

Pup: "I must of touched a nerve when I didn't roll over and wet myself when approached by you."

See how you are?

When you were "approached by me" or do you mean when I "responded to you with a question"?

Pup: "Your other questions are just bunk questions, and in which and through which, in your great teaching manner, which has thousands flocking to hear one of your great oracles, you imply whether or not I have a clue."

Oh I see, in the last post you stated that I was previously questioning whether or not you had a clue what a coyote looked like and now you suggest I was IMPLYING whether or not you have a clue.

That's quite a transformation between the two statements.

I'll take that as a NO you cannot back up your previous statement. Thank you!

What's a "bunk statement"?

Is that another way to avoid answering a question?

Pup: "which has thousands flocking to hear one of your great oracles"

See how you are?

Pup: "You stated that the coyote had the vantage point. I questioned whether he did or not. The dictionary describes vantage as having the advantage."

Again, here is what was actually stated:

pup (previous post from previous thread): "Once he reached a creek (about 55yds away) he stopped and was barking in a fit of rage. He yip howled once and then went back to barking. I never barked back and he never came any closer. My interpretation of this is that the lone howl coming from the intruder was not either close enough or was there enough of a threat for the old male to do any more than to stay at the edge of his core area and display his dominance."

To which I questioned how you would know that this paticular coyote was at the "edge of his core area" to which you wouldn't answer but rather accused me of belittling you for asking this and other questions in response to your statements.

In this thread I stated:

Wiley E: "...here I thought a coyote simply stopped at a particular vantage point to determine the source of the sound."

"I THOUGHT" "A COYOTE" meaning a possible suggestion for the behavior.

How did my suggesting that I THOUGHT "A COYOTE" stopped at a particular vantage point to determine the source of the sound, as opposed to stopping because he was on the edge of some imaginary "core area", transform into my stating that "THE COYOTE" HAD the vantage point?

You sure like to paint your own picture of what is actually stated don't you? No wonder you accuse me of belittling you when you take so much of what is stated out of context, reword it, and put your own meanings to it.

If you don't know what I mean, ask. Don't just assume you know what I mean. If you quote me, get it right for once.

Pup: "I dont think that a coyote that stops broadside in the open while I have my gun ready as having the vantage point."

As you stated, Vantage point is defined as a point of advantage. I was referring to a point where "A COYOTE", not necessarily the coyote you mentioned on the edge of the creek, is close enough to easily see the source of the sound. This vantage point, in many cases but not necessarily this case, MAY BE from an elevated position.

Comprende'?

Pup: "NOw on the other hand , the coyote in whose territory I was in , that stopped on the edge of the creek, at the edge of his/her, core area. Core area being in that coyotes territory. That coyote had the vantage or rather advantage."

I'll ask you again, what makes you think that the reason this particular coyote would not come any further was because he was on the edge of his "core area" as opposed to the possibility that he could plainly see the exact location where the sound had came from and there was no coyote or no rabbit in that spot?

Pup: "Once again Wiley, I don't have anything to prove,or sell. Our whole relationship had been established on, and exists of, you questioning my question, and belittling my abilities? I don't get it. I am begining to think that there is no means to resolve the matter."

How can I belittle your abiliities when I don't even know your abilities. That doesn't even make sense.

I questioned your statements. The "core area" one in particular.

The matter would resolve itself if you understood that asking questions in response to your statements is not "belittling you".

I can't help that you view my questions as "belittling you" simply because you can't or won't answer them.

I asked you why you thought this particular coyote stopped on the edge of his "core area" and other questions and you get defensive and accuse me of belittling you rather than answering the question.

If it's just a theory, state that it's just a theory. So what if it's just a theory?

If you really believe that this particular coyote stopped because he was on the edge of his "core area" as opposed to a multitude of other reasons why coyotes stop at 50 yards, why not tell me why you believe that rather than getting defensive about it and accusing me of "belittling" you?

If you're not comfortable answering the questions, don't make the statements. You can always chose to simply ignore me but if I disagree with you I am going to pose an opposing opinion whether you like it or not.


Pup: "I'll tell you what , either you come down or invite me up so that we can settle this face to face. That way if we don't get it worked out and find some way for us to properly communicate, then we'll let the one speaking from the ground be determined as the looser, and will forever be declared as wrong. Fair enough?"

LOL! Pup I left the fighting stage of my life many years and I can't fathom fighting over an internet discussion. That would be the epitomy of immaturity. I learned a long time ago just to avoid those who I couldn't get along with. Fighting never changed anyone's opinion but civil debate has.

If you want to learn to communicate you have to learn to read and comprehend exactly what is written and not simply assume that you understand what someone means. I have pointed that out repeatedly in this thread.

Pup: "AZ, I did offer to have Scott come down. He scoffed at me, by belittling my abilities."

Case in point, here is exactly what was stated:

Pup (previous thread): "You are more than welcome to come on down and I will take you over to my hunting spot and you can give me your personal view on what I should do next and we can discuss the how do you know's of coyote verbalization."

To which I responded with:

Wiley (in response): "I appreciate the invitation and I always enjoy killing educated coyotes in new country. What I really enjoy is calling in areas where everyone else calls and killing the adults that remain. That's always rewarding."

That statement was completely sincere and you took it to mean that YOU WERE THE ONE DOING THE EDUCATING DIDN'T YOU?

Even when I explained to you that this was not what I meant, you still are determined that your interpretation of what I stated was correct.

What kind of communication is that?

Our communication problem is quite obvious!

I will assume responsibility for not chosing my words more carefully if that's the problem. I apologize if you view something I stated as "belittling" you but that was never the intention and I will not quit asking questions in response to statements or offering my opinion simply because you will take it out of context.

BTW, I prefer to hunt coyotes with people I can relate to and get along with not those who continually second guess my motives.

I can only imagine how that statement will be misconstrued.

Quinton Wagoner and I hunted together recently and it was mutually beneficial. I hope to hunt with Leonard someday and that too will be mutually beneficial. Rich Higgins and I plan to hunt together in the future and I expect that this too will be mutually beneficial.

Rich Higgins and I are starting to understand eachother better via private email and I am enjoying it thoroughly as opposed to defending my questions with you.

I apologize to the rest of you for having to read this.

~SH~

[ March 26, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 26, 2003, 07:14 PM:
 
pup: "He knows that I really don't have "theories", but lots of questions and things I would like to try."

What about the "core area" theory?

Within the same post:

pup: "While I have yet to prove my "theories", I have yet to see hard proof from him that they don't exist."

A direct contradiction.

Am I the only one that sees the problem here?

pup: "He also knows that I will ask lots of questions and that is where the rift starts."

Of course, you know me so well!

pup: "I just think that if you want to learn and you are really a student of the coyote, then you have got to try some new stuff."

Does someone disagree with this?

pup: "The only thing that I know he likes is
Who knows, who will ever know?"

That says it all!

Pup: "Oh yeah I forgot, Any ol' howl will do."

As before, I am sure you can back that statement up too can't you?

Again, do you have any reason to believe that a "realistic sounding" challenge howl is any more effective than a "realistic sounding" lone howl?

If not, then why suggest the need to know the difference?

~SH~
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2003, 07:55 PM:
 
I really believe that Strother Martin said it all, in "Cool Hand Luke".

Pup,

Scott really enjoys the debate, I'm sure he isn't trying to piss you off, by challenging your assumptions. Core area may be a casual term to some people; like territory. But to others, it may mean something so specific that it cannot be stated without documentation. Also, some of the charges you make, may be accurate from your perspective, but from my perspective, (and I've read all of it) I absolutely didn't read that Scott was "belittling" you. Preasuring you, persistant, beating a dead horse, and several other things; but I didn't read that he was belittling you. I really think he wants to know your reasons for your statements. He can be annoying as hell, but he simply wants to debate the issues. You may not want to play the game, so just tell him you don't have the time for it. I don't think he is questioning your beliefs or "theories", he just wants you to define your words.....and, of course, I could be totally wrong!

And, if so, excuse the intrusion! (I'm neutral)

Good hunting. LB

[ March 26, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 27, 2003, 08:39 AM:
 
Lets start with "core area". Can we agree that core means the center of?

I think that core area is the center of a territory. With other factors added in, possible dens in the area, possible favorite( or the best ) vantage point to lay up, and terrain, cover or lack therof.

later pup
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 27, 2003, 09:09 AM:
 
I don't have the time to play your post and pull game today Wiley. Although I will from time to time bring them up as I get time to find them.

If you would deal with one question at a time , you would be able to keep up a little better.

SEE HOW YOU ARE.????

Blow your spin on this up someone elses hiney, I don't buy it. You are the one that picks and chooses what you will. So don't lay that off on me.

I didn't have time as I stated to pull every post, that took place over the last 45 days.

I don't feel it is necessary, as you are just trying to spin the vantage point back to the core area. A point that I am willing to take on , read this carefully.

ONE QUESTION AT A TIME

That way there will be no confusion.

later pup
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 27, 2003, 09:25 AM:
 
pup: "Lets start with "core area". Can we agree that core means the center of?"

Yes!

pup: "I think that core area is the center of a territory. With other factors added in, possible dens in the area, possible favorite( or the best ) vantage point to lay up, and terrain, cover or lack therof."

Ok, now let's talk about territories shall we?

Can you acknowledge that:

1. APPROXIMATELY 60% of MOST coyote populations DURING THE FUR SEASON are young of the year and transient (dispersing coyotes, nomads, non-territorial) coyotes that do not elicit territorial behavior.

2. That the territories of the adult coyotes will vary sesonally based on prey availability, hunting pressure, coyote population in the area, weather, denning, disease, etc.

3. That the territories of adult coyotes will vary in size from area to area and from season to season.

4. That due to exploitation (hunting pressure and continual removal of coyotes) that these territories will change continually during the redistribution or shuffeling that occurs to fill the voids created by the removal of coyotes.

5. Since most TERRITORIAL coyotes spend most of their time within their core areas, would it not be logical to assume that you would also need to be within the core area for a TERRITORIAL coyote to hear you?

If you can acknowledge these points, then your theory that this particular coyote is holding up because it's on the EDGE OF it's Core Area is going to be a tough sell.

The question remains, why do you think this coyote would not come any further because it was on the edge of it's core area?

I'll grant that you did suggest that this was an adult coyote so #1 would not apply.

Since I am sure you will question my personal observations and the observations of those I have associated with, I'll tell you straight up that I have more than enough radio telemetry studies to back up where TERRITORIAL adult coyotes spend most of their time in relation to their territory, how the size of these coyote territories varies from one area to the next, and how these territories will also vary in size and shape from one season to the next.

Still holding your ground?

Would you also acknowledge that a coyote may stop at a certain spot because that MAY BE the best place to observe the exact spot where it heard the sound coming from?

If you can acknowledge that point, then your "edge of the core area" theory is on shaky ground for that reason alone.

One last question, If I said "every coyote will circle downwind" and nobody challenged it, would you consider that to be a disservice to the members of this forum?

Have a good one Pup and thank you for the civility that appears to be finally taking place here.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 27, 2003, 09:31 AM:
 
pup: "Blow your spin on this up someone elses hiney, I don't buy it. You are the one that picks and chooses what you will. So don't lay that off on me."

Imagine that!

~SH~
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 27, 2003, 10:06 AM:
 
Now it is hard to use words to draw a picture of how this place lays out but the drainage is about 2 miles long Oklahoma hardwoods , with some cleared pastures. Creek has water year round and has brushy banks. What I'm calling the core area is probably about 80 to 120 acres. but is elongated. The creek that I call the edge , on the pasture that I was calling from is open pasture to one side. I was on a hill up under a cedar and an oak. I was not picked out, pinned down or busted. I say this as the coyote that stopped came in after another coyote and a bobcat. I think that he knew that he would be toast if he cam out in the open. Thus having the advantage.

I know that their territory extends beyond that 80 to 120, they come by my house and 40 acres and on my neighbors 20 and my other neighbors 100. then my other neighbors 160. plus the neighbors 279, and the dairy which is a good food source to hold them there with some regularity, and the next section some. This group, is normally there. Sometimes, as in one of my posts, they are on one end ot the other. I asked which howl to use or just move.

Now if the core area is the center of a territory, and the creek is on the edge of the center/core area, and the coyote stopped there. Is he not on the edge of the center. I think that he stopped there because that gave him the advantage. You say because he spotted me. I know that he didn't. Almost dark, and nobody moved from the time that he first barked at me until the time after his hissy fit, that he left.

Although I don't know that he left, he could of just finally shutup and sat there with his head cocked.

Anyway we didn't leave until it was pitch black.

As I stated you or someone you trust are more than welcome to come down here and check it out. Maybe, even have some luck in getting the old dog to move for ya.

And saying stuff like "finally some civility"
Ah never mind.

later pup
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2003, 11:45 AM:
 
...or Objectivity.

pup, the area described seems to be something that wouldn't necessarily be the exact geographical center because it has advantages that would be desirable to other groups, and virtually impossible to defend by a single family group. I think it could be just as likely that it radiates out like the spokes of a wheel with a common area in the center.

To me, (and I could be wrong) a core area is that which the group spends the most time, or to which it returns for sanctuary. It is within the larger territory, but the hunting areas on one side may be three or four times the size of other hunting areas, in opposite directions, based on competition and value. In many areas where I hunt, the hunting grounds are far removed from bedding areas, but are just as important. Which do they defend to the death? I don't know, or even if that is a valid question. But, as Scott indicated, they are many exceptions, transients, yearlings, etc. and generally speaking, the breeding pair would be the ones most interested in defending those places they consider important to their survival. Will a coyote pull up short of his hunting territory and not venture out of his core area, to issue a challenge? Seems unlikely, to me? But I'd think he would be a little flexible. All these boundaries are practically invisible to humans, unless you are born with an exceptional nose.

Anyway, it sounds like your coyotes have a very secure shelter belt with a lot of room for excursions onto your's and your neighbor's property.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 27, 2003, 02:03 PM:
 
pup (previous post from previous thread): "My interpretation of this is that the lone howl coming from the intruder was not either close enough or was there enough of a threat for the old male to do any more than to stay at the edge of his core area and display his dominance."

Pup: "I think that he knew that he would be toast if he cam out in the open."

Oh I see, the reason the coyote wouldn't come any closer was not BECAUSE he was on the edge of his core area, it just so happened that the habitat was on the edge of what you believe was his core area (which based on your description sounds logical) but the real reason the coyote wouldn't come any closer was BECAUSE he was in the security of cover. Now that makes more sense!

Why didn't you just say that the reason the coyote wouldn't come any closer was BECAUSE he didn't want to leave the cover rather than implying that he wouldn't come any closer BECAUSE he was on the edge of the core area?

Didn't think of it huh?

Pup: "Now if the core area is the center of a territory, and the creek is on the edge of the center/core area, and the coyote stopped there. Is he not on the edge of the center."

Yup, sure is and now we know why he wouldn't come any closer which was what I was questioning.

Thanks for clearing it up Pup!

Pup: "I think that he stopped there because that gave him the advantage."

I won't argue that. He was in the cover which gives him an advantage. I agree. That's logical. What's not logical is that he wouldn't come any further BECAUSE he was on the edge of his core area as you seemed to imply.

You could have saved a lot of hassle by simply explaining it before.

I know, I am a little slow at times.

Pup: "You say because he spotted me. I know that he didn't. Almost dark, and nobody moved from the time that he first barked at me until the time after his hissy fit, that he left."

How would I know whether or not he spotted you? I simply suggested the possibility. I wasn't there to see this coyote's reaction. I only know that, based on my experiences, they will be looking directly at the exact place from which the sound originally came from.

Pup: "As I stated you or someone you trust are more than welcome to come down here and check it out. Maybe, even have some luck in getting the old dog to move for ya."

No reason to now that you have explained that the reason the coyote wouldn't come any closer was because it was in cover and not that he wouldn't come in any closer BECAUSE he was at the edge of his core area which is what you suggested in your statement at the top of this post.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Next question,

What makes you think that a "realistic sounding" challenge howl is any more or less attractive than a "realistic sounding" lone howl, group howl, or group/yip howl?

Thanks in advance for answering my second and only other question pertaining to the original thread.

We're gaining ground pup! LOL!

Oh happy day!

~SH~
 

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Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on March 28, 2003, 05:32 AM:
 
Well, I'm not a caller, but do consider myself a student of the coyote. I trap a few now and then.

I have been involved in some telemetry studies done on my trapline. My country is river bluffs, coulees, hardwood forests and contour/rotation farming.

pup- let me say this. Whether you want to believe it or not- Wiley is as knowledgeable a man on coyote behaviour as I have known. I have been in many a debate with AND against Wiley, and if Scott doesn't make you think and learn- you ain't listening. Trust me- he listens to what you say just as closely- but his point is "just because you say it is so, doesn't mean its so" and I am using "you" genericly and not singularly. I am learning from all these posts.

I agree with all of your points but one Wiley- and that is #5:

quote:

---

Since most TERRITORIAL coyotes spend most of their time within their core areas, would it not be logical to assume that you would also need to be within the core area for a TERRITORIAL coyote to hear you?

---

A big assumption here. Wouldn't the size of both "territory" and "core territory" if I may call it that, be a huge factor in your assumption? To assume that a caller must be in the core territory to get a RESPONSE from that animal would be to assume that the core is larger than the hearing range of a coyote- indeed- that determination would in itself would be a huge variable. How many variables limit or improve a coyote's hearing range? Even in the vast wide open spaces of SD, how big can these core terrritories be?

Now, conceding that my areas are different than most calling areas- we are finding the "core" to be relatively small. Lets call the core area the area that a coyote spends most of his time in. The starting point where a particular coyote usually can be found. And we can agree that this core area lies somewhere within a coyotes larger territory.

leonard says To me, (and I could be wrong) a core area is that which the group spends the most time, or to which it returns for sanctuary. It is within the larger territory, but the hunting areas on one side may be three or four times the size of other hunting areas, in opposite directions, based on competition and value. In many areas where I hunt, the hunting grounds are far removed from bedding areas, but are just as important. Which do they defend to the death? I don't know, or even if that is a valid question

I agree. It makes perfect sense. The core, one can "assume", would be that area defended and protected. But how large can that area that they are willing to defend? It has to be somewhat compact TO BE easily defended against others. We are finding out, and my thoughts concur- that at least here, the coyotes have fairly small core territories- say a 40 acre set aside or a 10 acre ravine- areas where the coyote spends the majority of his time. We are seeing that many coyotes and groups share larger territores- both social spots and hunting spots. The hunting spots are kind of on a rotating basis- one pair will be here, while that pair is there- but then in 2 weeks that pair is there and the other is here.

The social spots are like a good nightclub- you never know who is going to show up.

Regarding the original topic of hangup- several variables have been mentioned. Many could be right. But you might be thinkin' a little too much here- watch a hound come into a long distance horn or whistle- he will come on a dead run, but will stop several times on the way for one simpole reason- running, and running through brush, is not too condusive to hearing directional sounds well (all right, all right- I'm assuming!)- so perhaps the coyote is simply stopping to recheck direction, etc. And any place he stops to do so, he is stopping AT A VANTAGE point to GET AN ADVANTAGE.

Normally the advantage gained by stopping to listen and locating would be over a rabbit or other prey- the fact that a longbarrel is there instead doesn't change the nature of a coyote.

Coyotes "R" Us
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 28, 2003, 06:01 AM:
 
Well guy's,
I havn't been able to get out hardly at all this year, as of yet anyway. Wife and I have been overwhelmed with trying to raise three grandchildren age 2 thru 12 years ever since August. At our age it is more than full time job just making life good for these children. My "spare" time has been spent in trying to keep up with orders for my calls, which is good because of added expense involved in raising three young children. I have taken the role of Father, Grandfather and call maker who wishes he had more time for hunting coyotes. I look for a little bit of a break in a couple more weeks.

Having said all of that, I would like to also say this--I have had a lot of experience with coyotes in the past. Trapping and calling these elusive critters has been a passion of mine for a very long time. My own experience, plus what I have learned by talking with folks like Murry Burnham, Monty Dodson, the late Wayne Soper and more recently Scott Huber have convinced me that there is some confusion here by some folks regarding the "core" area and "territory". A coyote moves throughout his entire "territory". The "core" of this territory is sort of like Leonard and a couple of others have already said. The "core" is that spot within the "territory" that coyotes spend most of their time during daylight hours. The coyote will most certainly leave his "core" area to approach a screaming rabbit or to run off a strange coyote who dares to enter his "territory". I would want to stay back from the "core" area a little ways to call coyotes OUT of said "core", because there is too much chance of getting busted by getting too close to this "core". The reason's why Pup's coyote on other side of the crick hung up are many. It is anybody's guess. That coyote didn't want to come any closer, so he didn't. Maybe he will NEXT time.
 

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Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on March 28, 2003, 06:16 AM:
 
Steve Gappa,
Welcome to Huntmasters! And welcome to the great debate! Glad to see you join in.
Steve
 

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Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on March 28, 2003, 07:55 AM:
 
Thanks Steve.

I got busy and in all the hustle and bussle of fall/winter trappng, plus the confusion in the Predator boards, I haven't been around lately. But I really missed the coyote discussions- the more understanding you have of coyote habits and his nature, the more successful you will be whether hunting or trapping.

The more I learn about coyotes, the more I am intrigued by them.

With any luck at all, I will have a chance this summer to go calling with none other than Wiley E-I've saw a little of his techniques last year but am sworn to silence under penalty of death. I can still hear it in the wind..."You don't have to tell ALL my secrets..."

I keep trying to get Wiley to come here- 100s of calling spots in the beautiful Mississippi coulee country, a very good coyote population- and better yet- NO callers in the area. I bet 99% of my coyotes have NEVER heard a predator call.....

Now if you really want to be impressed, watch Wiley handling snakes As my wife said "Scott, if you get bit I am going to tell your wife it was because you were fooling around!" LOL
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 28, 2003, 09:37 AM:
 
I can see that we a dealing, with what we call things. I can agree on the "sanctuary"/ core area, I do agree that it may or may not be located in the center, but in the best spot for different reasons.

In the area that I am describing the other side of the creek, or the side that the coyote came from is a knob hill, Oak scrub brush, slightly cleared with brush piles , This knob has drainages that lead to the dairy, another farm that raises chickens and other food source items( they don't like hunting, yet the let me hunt coyotes after loosing a few yard animals). On the other side of the knob, the is some more drainage areas, and a pond. The knob hill, happens to be in the center of that elongated run along the creek, which is about two miles in length.

Wiley E.-

quote:

---

What makes you think that a "realistic sounding" challenge howl is any more or less attractive than a "realistic sounding" lone howl, group howl, or group/yip howl?

---

quote:

---

And any place he stops to do so, he is stopping AT A VANTAGE point to GET AN ADVANTAGE.

Normally the advantage gained by stopping to listen and locating would be over a rabbit or other prey- the fact that a longbarrel is there instead doesn't change the nature of a coyote.

---

Now what I am trying to get across is that just because a coyote stops to find the sound, the place that he stops is not automatically the vantage point. Because the vantage point is defined as having the advantage, when life and death hangs in the balance, this is a big difference. I see this as the caller is giving the coyote a place to blind side him in, a place of advantage over the caller.
And the second is that if that coyote was educated it will make a big difference to what his nature is. More times than not an educated coyote will go to a advantage point, to get the low down on the situation over the caller, whether the vantage point be downwind, ridge etc.

later pup
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 28, 2003, 09:56 AM:
 
Welcome T-Man! LOL!

Let me define the debate.

I "HAD" two issues of contention here:

1. Why this particular coyote that Pup called in stopped where it did and would come no further.

Upon receiving additional information, it has now been revealed that this coyote may have just not wanted to leave the cover it was in as opposed to not wanting to come any further because it was on the edge of some "core area".

The "core area" theory leaves the impression that there is an imaginary line drawn in the sand somewhere. I didn't buy that implication.

Hopefully we have cleared that issue up.

2. If there is a difference in attraction between SOMEONE'S VERSION OF a challenge call, a group/howl, a group/hip howl, and a lone howl.

This issue has many variables.

Considering the difference between one caller to the next and from one call to the next, can we actually duplicate a particular sound well enough for a coyote to discern what it is?

To avoid the previous spin, I believe that coyotes can discern THEIR OWN vocalizations. My question was never whether or not they can discern their own language, as was suggested, my question was whether or not they can discern OUR VERSION OF THEIR vocalizations.

History has taught me to head the spin off before it occurs.

I have a little trouble believing that a coyote is sitting there thinking, "hey, did that coyote (caller) just howl a challenge howl at me?" as opposed to, "did I just hear another coyote in my area?"

I think a coyote hears what it believes is another coyote and either responds or it doesn't. In my case they usually do respond both vocally and by approaching.

Of course I believe there is certain coyote vocalizations THAT WE MAKE that have more attraction than others TO THE COYOTES but I question the difference in attraction between the various howls.

I think "realism" is more of a factor in the attraction of a howl than which particular howl you use. A person has to consider the differences between callers and whether or not a coyote discerns those howls the way we think they do.

A recent thesis I came across proved through radio telemetry that territorial adults would respond equally well to recordings of their own vocalizations and the vocalizations of the neighboring coyotes as they did to foreign coyotes. This basically confirmed what I had believed based on personal observation.

That is the basis for my previous "a howl is a howl" theory. Which is a vague statement in itself.

Wiley (previous): "since most TERRITORIAL coyotes spend most of their time within their core areas, would it not be logical to assume that you would also need to be within the core area for a TERRITORIAL coyote to hear you?"

T'man (in response): "A big assumption here. Wouldn't the size of both "territory" and "core territory" if I may call it that, be a huge factor in your assumption?"

Yes it would.

That is precisely why I stated:

2. That the territories of the adult coyotes will vary sesonally based on prey availability, hunting pressure, coyote population in the area, weather, denning, disease, etc.

3. That the territories of adult coyotes will vary in size from area to area and from season to season.

T'man: "To assume that a caller must be in the core territory to get a RESPONSE from that animal would be to assume that the core is larger than the hearing range of a coyote- indeed- that determination would in itself would be a huge variable."

Yes it would as stated above in my previous comments.

I was thinking in terms of a typical coyote home range in the west.

T'man: "How many variables limit or improve a coyote's hearing range?"

Wind, habitat, and geography being three. I am sure there is others as well.

T'man: "Even in the vast wide open spaces of SD, how big can these core terrritories be?"

The issue is not how big the "core territories" are, the issue is how big is the territory, period.

In this area I would say a pretty average territory size for an adult pair of coyotes DURING THE FUR SEASON IN NORMAL WEATHER would range from "ABOUT" 4 square miles (2x2) to 16 square miles (4x4). Using an average of 9 square miles, they may spend most of their days DURING THAT TIME OF YEAR UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS in about 1 square mile of that territory.

In that situation, they may or may not hear the calls from the edge of their core area.

I hate to even give out averages for fear that someone will try to etch them in stone on me but that's pretty close to normal UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

T'man: "But how large can that area that they are willing to defend? It has to be somewhat compact TO BE easily defended against others."

Again, we go right back to all the variables. Prey availability plays a huge role in how coyotes will defend a territory. Coyote population in the area is another variable. Seasonality plays a role. ADULT COYOTES are certainly the most territorial during the denning season and PROBABLY the least territorial in harsh winter weather while sharing a cow carcass.

That's precisely what I am getting at. All the variables that keep us from etching theories into stone walls.

T'man: "We are seeing that many coyotes and groups share larger territores- both social spots and hunting spots. The hunting spots are kind of on a rotating basis- one pair will be here, while that pair is there- but then in 2 weeks that pair is there and the other is here."

Exactly!

Coyote calling theories need to be "etched in soap".

~SH~

[ March 28, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on March 28, 2003, 10:24 AM:
 
As a mutual friend says "Well, I'm going to have to open a can of worms now..."

My only knowledge of calling dogs is from talking to a few people that use them and in watching a few calling tapes that made use of them.

I believe I understand the concept of danger/chase/sanctuary but now I wonder- is the core, defined here as the "protected" aera, one major factor in the success of using calling dogs? That is, the proxminity to the core and going in and out of it.

Pup says: "but I think that if I knew some more about howling and the differences of tone and inflection and the situations in which to do what I think that I could of persuaded them both to come and have a look, her for one reason and him for another."

LOL- now you sound like I do, but in my case traps- if I see a refusal or walk by- I wonder what I did, what I didn't do. As Wiley says- Some of those coyotes just don't WANT to work your set. And there is nothing you can do about it.

And in my case with traps and your case with calls- the more we know the more we increase the odds on our side- but there is still going to be those ones that "just don't want to".

Now what I am trying to get across is that just because a coyote stops to find the sound, the place that he stops is not automatically the vantage point.

I agree on that- he stops because he "needs" to in many cases to reorientate. Of course, that is when he is going to notice something or at least "think" a bit.

Wiley says "The "core area" theory leaves the impression that there is an imaginary line drawn in the sand somewhere. I didn't buy that implication."

I never thought of it like that before your statement- but within a few feet, yards- won't that be the case? Just like we have our "comfort" zone- wouldn't a coyote also have that flight/fight zone- granted, varying as to season, etc? And in a territorial animal, esp in high populations, wouldn't that zone be literally defined?

The alternative would be a "personal" space- in other words- a coyote would only fight for terrritory if that personal space is invaded- even in his core area. I don't know if I can buy that.

Isn't this fun?
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 28, 2003, 10:37 AM:
 
Excellent post pup!

pup: "Our terminology, or lack of proper description, seems to have caused the lack of understanding in the first place."

I agree!

pup: "Let us assume (ass of U and me), that you mean Attractive to coyotes, as in making them come into a howl, or respond by howling back, or works best right now."

That's correct, that's what I meant.

Thanks for allowing the clarification.

pup: "I have been told that attractive is relative to your blood alcohol count."

Hahaha! Yup!

pup: "A challenge howl to me is aggressive, logically the name of the game to the coyote is survival, getting your tail kicked for sticking your nose where it doesn't belong is not logical to me for survival."

I would like to agree but I first have to assume that what you are calling a challenge howl also sounds like an "aggressive" challenge to the coyotes. It probably does! Who knows, who will ever know. LOL!

We only know what works but we speculate why it worked.

Going back to your previous incident with the male that hung up by the creek, by the way you described this particular coyote's behavior, I would say that a challenge howl and a lone howl would have equal attraction providing that they both sounded realistic.

Now if you are dealing with non territorial coyotes, then I agree with your contention of trying to use a vocalization that would appear less threatening TO THOSE COYOTES. That makes sense.

pup: "I have found in my area, that the lone howl, works better most of the time."

pup: "Of the times that I have Challenged howled before the set compared to the times I have lone howled before a set, the responses that I have had point towards the lone howl as getting more of a response."

pup: "Based on my experiences challenge howls depending on the circumstance are less attractive, over all, or is my conclusion that I have had more success with lone howls?"

I would never argue success, I would only question whether something works better than something else.

If YOUR VERSION OF a lone howl works better than YOUR VERSION OF a challenge howl, and you have compared them long enough than who am I to argue with your success?

I would add that a lone howl that sounds realistic TO THE COYOTE will create more success than a lone howl that doesn't sound as realistic to the coyote.

Next >>>>>

Very good description on the coyote pair!

pup: "Did the other coyote that she heard, have more tone and inflection with what he was saying, or did he know exactly what tone and inflection to use? Yeah, I think he did. I think that he also had the ability to be a moving voice which also added more realism to his sound, but that didn't come into effect until after she had already started in his direction."

From what you described, without being there, I am going to draw some assumptions here.

Pup, I would bet money that this is a territorial mated pair that was still together at this particular time of year.

What I have found and research has proven, if a female coyote successfully dens in an area, she will "USUALLY" remain there for life IF SOMETHING ELSE DOESN'T CHANGE.

In this case, I think her mate was still there too.

Ok, with that said, consider that this is a mated pair.

I doubt you will ever be able to elicit a coyote vocalization that is more "attractive" to her or to him THAN THEIR OWN MATE. That doesn't sound logical. Regardless of "tone and inflection".

What you want is a "realistic sounding" coyote vocalization FROM A PARTICULAR PLACE that will be attractive enough to get a BETTER response. To me, that's getting them both within gun range.

I think "tone and inflection", assuming that I know what that is for sure, is more of an issue with "realism" than trying to identically duplicate a particular howl.

Consider the direction this pair approached from and try them from a new direction on a different day with the same lone howls but a different distress and I would bet you would have to beat them off.

Many times callers are trying to credit or discredit a reaction to a particular sound when location is the key element here ASSUMING THAT YOU WERE NOT SEEN OR SMELLED.

Trust me on this! As in trapping, location is everything.

I call in open country, I get to see their long and close distance reactions much more than someone who is calling in heavier cover.

So many guys try to call coyotes to a place that THE COYOTES associate with danger. Towards the road, towards where they have seen other hunters, towards where they heard other callers, etc. etc.

They want to blame the failure on the sound when what you described to me was a typical coyote struggle between their curiousity and their caution.

I think there is other variables that played a role in why they did not come any further other than the sound. If they were barking and they didn't see or smell you, they were attracted to what you had to offer. Something else wasn't right and they don't always leave the cover to come out in the open.

If the coyotes were attracted enough to approach in the first place, that attraction to your sounds didn't just shut off and we are assuming this is an adult pair.

I say you did nothing wrong and I doubt whether you could do anything any better than trying a new approach. Your "tone and inflection" got them there and that's all that matters. You just weren't set up right FOR THEM.

The only thing I meant by "vantage point" was a place where the coyote could see the source of the sound. I didn't mean to suggest anything more than that.

Good post!

~SH~

[ March 29, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 29, 2003, 08:15 AM:
 
After proofreading, allow me to make some corrections and clarifications.

Wiley (previous): "I would add that a lone howl that sounds realistic TO THE COYOTE will create more success than a lone howl that doesn't sound as realistic to the coyote."

To take that a step further, a challenge howl that sounds realistic TO THE COYOTE "MAY" create a better response than a lone howl that does not sound as realistic.

Hmmmmm????

What would happen if we were creating a potential bias by one vocalization sounding more realistic than the other?

Can you acknowledge this possibility?

Wiley (previous): "If the coyotes were attracted enough to approach in the first place, that attraction to your sounds didn't just shut off and we are assuming this is an adult pair."

Correction:

Assuming that this was an adult pair, if the coyotes were attracted enough to approach in the first place, that attraction to your sounds shouldn't just shut off AT CLOSE RANGE.

I would assume that they are either attracted to the sounds or they're not. If they approached that far they were attracted. If they didn't come any further it PROBABLY wasn't because of the sound, it was MORE THAN LIKELY something else.

Keep in mind that sometimes if they don't see you and you quit calling, this also plays on their curiousity AT TIMES to where they will continue their approach.

Justification for the "intermittent calling" theory.

Maybe we should also define our objectives here.

If I remember correctly, didn't you suggest that you are ALSO a camera hunter which means that your close range objectives may be different than mine.

My objectives is to kill the highest percentage of coyotes that I can, period!

Your objective may be to create a certain reaction to get a certain picture or film.

IF THAT IS THE CASE, this would change our perspective and our goals.

~SH~

[ March 29, 2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 29, 2003, 10:51 AM:
 
I would assume that they are either attracted to the sounds or they're not. If they approached that far they were attracted. If they didn't come any further it PROBABLY wasn't because of the sound, it was MORE THAN LIKELY something else.

There you go. The man speculates that it's related to "core area". Likely we'll never know?

Excuse me, I totally missed T-Man.

Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Trappnman. For some reason, I was thinking Trapper Dan; screen name of another member, and it went over my head. Glad to have you on board.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 30, 2003, 08:41 AM:
 
T'man: "Wiley says "The "core area" theory leaves the impression that there is an imaginary line drawn in the sand somewhere. I didn't buy that implication.""

T'man: "I never thought of it like that before your statement- but within a few feet, yards- won't that be the case?"

T'man: "And in a territorial animal, esp in high populations, wouldn't that zone be literally defined?"

The MORE distinct lines for territorial adults tend to be roads, rivers, divide ridges, etc.

As evidenced by radio telemetry, when pressured for food, when pressured by hunters, when pressured by weather, when curious about an intruder, THESE DISTINCT COYOTE TERRITORIAL LINES BECOME DOTTED LINES RATHER QUICKLY.

T'man: "Just like we have our "comfort" zone- wouldn't a coyote also have that flight/fight zone- granted, varying as to season, etc?"

To a point!

The implication was that this coyote would not come any further because he was at the edge of his core area. That is a distinct line and, according to pup's definition, no such distinct line existed other than the safety of the cover.

T'man: "The alternative would be a "personal" space- in other words- a coyote would only fight for terrritory if that personal space is invaded- even in his core area. I don't know if I can buy that."

You don't know if you can buy what?

Are you reading more into what I said than what I actually said?

I didn't say a coyote would only fight for territory if it's personal space is invaded did I?

I said coyote territories are dotted lines, not solid lines.

A buried underground electric yard fence for a dog is a solid line. A road is a defined territorial line. A creek is a dotted territorial line that provides cover.

Comprende'?

You lost me!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 30, 2003, 09:02 AM:
 
As soon as we split these hairs; dotted versus solid lines in the sand, which I accept for the sake of arguement, then I could throw in some conditions that most of us never see.

There are places in this world where the lines are blurred to non-existance. (and you will have to take my word for it)

There has to be some other factor, just as powerful, or more powerful?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 30, 2003, 09:42 AM:
 
Pup,
Concerning that hungup coyote on other side of the crick. This is only an educated guess on my part but I think that if the coyoter came in as close as 55 yards before hanging up and barking, it was probably not a core area thing. Now if you had been set up a couple of hundred yards or so from the creek when said coyote hung up on other side of said creek, then I would say that the creek "may" have been the territory boundary. If you had the coyote in to 55 yards, you sure did have the coyote fooled with your sounds alright. Fifty five yards is close, really close.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 30, 2003, 12:12 PM:
 
I gotta agree with that. Anytime you lure a coyote within fifty yards, you've won. They all stop at some point, except for those landing in your lap. You get a coyote stationary, within fifty yards is about all you can ask for, not withstanding he left and returned to the same spot. Give me a coyote at fifty yards every time, and I'm a happy camper. It's very hard to diagnose a single event, the variables become incalculable very quickly.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by trappnman (Member # 168) on March 30, 2003, 01:36 PM:
 
Thanks Leonard- I learn a lot from callers- and slowly am getting to the point of trying it a little harder.

The MORE distinct lines for territorial adults tend to be roads, rivers, divide ridges, etc.

Yes, very true. We are seeing that- where coyotes very seldom are on opposite sides on certain conty roads. Just 2 lane little blacktops- but some are definite boundaries. That's not to say occasionally one doesn't cross- but it is rare.

We did have a pairing though from different sides of a road boundary- the male on one side where we had a pair collared was killed, and after a few months the females began hanging on the other side of the road.

{b]As evidenced by radio telemetry, when pressured for food, when pressured by hunters, when pressured by weather, when curious about an intruder, THESE DISTINCT COYOTE TERRITORIAL LINES BECOME DOTTED LINES RATHER QUICKLY.[/b]

I find this to be true also. Love too plays a part as shown above LOL

I didn't say a coyote would only fight for territory if it's personal space is invaded did I?
I said coyote territories are dotted lines, not solid lines.

This is where I am getting confused. I confess, I never thought heard the concept of "core territory". And that what I am trying to understand- is the core area defined in dotted lines or in solid lines? In a way- that's the heart of pup's question. And that is my question- how is a core area different from regular territory? Or is the core area just the area the coyote is spending his time at NOW?

You lost me!

Darn it Wiley, I'm typing with one finger as it is- you are going to just have to keep up...


 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 30, 2003, 03:34 PM:
 
T'man,

"Core area" was Pup's term, not mine. If you go further back in this thread, you will find where pup explains his definition of "core area".

If I remember correctly, it was the area WITHIN A COYOTE TERRITORY that the coyote spends most of it's time in.

Pup's implication was that this particular coyote may have stopped because it was on the "edge of the core area".

Hey T'man, why don't you share for the guys a little more about your involvement in the radio telemetry study in Minnesota. That was interesting.

At the Midwest Furbearer Workshop this year, they are going to give a presentation on the results of the radio telemetry study that is being conducted in Chicago. The preliminary results were real interesting regarding how these coyotes would use the railroads to travel through the city and "herring bone" their way out from that central travel way.

To me the Chicago study was fascinating to learn how coyotes adapted to life in the city. My favorite story was how one particular coyote was sitting down wind of a golf course as golf carts were going by. The person doing the telemetry work went direcly upwind and this particular coyote started warning barking at her.

This coyote identified THE INDIVIDUAL SMELL of the same person that collared this particular coyote. Interesting stuff!

~SH~
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 31, 2003, 07:10 AM:
 
To give a better understanding, facing the creek, which is 100 yds west of my stand, there is a ditch 55yds north of my stand, where the coyote came to first then went to the point west. behind me or to the east 400yds is a county rd. It is clear pasture up to the brush edge of the creek.
I have called them from the east , coyote crossed road to come in, but have not had them move beyond the creek, from the west. I have pulled them south, north, west, but not east beyond that point. All the other directions have some open pastures that I have called them too.

Wiley E.,
while I do haul the camera(video), I also bring the rifle and use it, more times than not I loose footage due to the fact that most places that we hunt, are on farms that want the coyotes removed, it is hard to do both sometimes, so we go for the shot before the shot. lol. In stating I was doing more video, I can get on more places with just a camera, and it is kinda of cool to just video their reaction.

I understand what you guys are saying, but I still think that the creek , for several reasons stated, is the edge of the sanctuary/core area.
I am leaning towards the fact that the coyote stopped due to the cover, however, that cover does also happen to be the edge. If I had properly explained, described it, it would not of raised the question in the first place.

Unless coyotes would stop at that edge, as the sanctuary being the place that the coyote is willing to defend. Then I guess he could of stopped there for more than one reason.
#1. Cover provided a good vantage point.
#2. Creek was on the edge of the area , he was willing to defend.
Possibly?

later pup
 

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