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Author Topic: The Power Of A Game Warden onecoyote Knows what it's all about Member # 129 posted March 02, 2003 09:24 AM                   This is not about predator hunting but it does relate. I have heard that a game warden is the only law enforcment officer that can search your house WITHOUT A WARRENT. Does anybody know this as a fact? If this is true, whatever happened to the constitution? I think somewere it mentions illegal search and seizure? -------------------- Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt. Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Rich 2,000th post PAKMAN Member # 112 posted March 02, 2003 09:46 AM                       Onecoyote, A Game Warden is a law enforcement officer. The same rules regarding search and seizure applies to him just like any other officer of the law. -------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder. Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged randy moose merta Knows what it's all about Member # 145 posted March 02, 2003 10:41 AM                    i am new to shooting a 220 swift but i am a old hand at law enforcement. A game warden [ or any law enforcement] cannot search your home without consent of the homeowner or without a search warrant. period. the game warden 'free to search anything and everything, whenever i want'law is as far from the truth as you can get. moose Posts: 13 | From: chandler,indiana | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Leonard HMFIC Member # 2 posted March 02, 2003 11:36 AM                       I don't know the law, in this case, but perhaps there is a jurisdictional situation where the Fish and Game Code supercedes the Criminal Code? For example, there are laws against concealed weapons and there are some exceptions when hunting. I have heard the same thing that Danny is talking about. I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. But, as I heard some of the stories, F&G raided a few residences looking for endangered species in some peoples' freezers. I don't recall if they had a court order or warrant, but according to the word on the street, they didn't. Now, this part I know. I have had Wardens stop me at a road block, in big game units. While one officer engaged me at the drivers window, another popped up at the rear and opened up the back door of my camper as he was saying the words: " mind if I have a look inside?" There was nothing to see and the event didn't last more than five minutes, but I resented the intrusion, as I drove off. Second example. We had our annual championship over ten years ago, and every participant was provided with a map and all the rules, including what animals would be scored. Because it is unenforcable, we didn't have any geographical limits, and there were a few that hopped commercial flights to different states, as well as out of the country. We scored wolves and mountain lions along with fox, badgers bobcat and coyote. There was a team that was stopped somewhere out in the desert, and the Warden read about lions and wolves, but didn't read that those animals had to be properly documented, with accompanying license and tags and port of entry. Well, that set in motion a big operation that desended on the checkin location, looking for anything for a bust. They found no game violations but wrote one person for a loaded firearm under the seat. They tried to confisticate several bobcat from the guys next to us, which were not in season in California, at the time. Until the man objected and produced his Arizona license and port of entry. They did all this search before official check in, where they could have easily waited until all the animals were on the ground for scoring. As far as my personal situation, my partner was hastled about his shotgun that "could" hold more than six rounds. Two officers crawled through every nook and cranny searching for a single 2 3/4" shell that would exceed the capacity, but all they found were 3" #4 Buck, and had to return the gun. Needless to say, from that point forward, we made sure that everything was in season, as near as possible in all neighboring states, and became very careful about announcing the location of the check in, in advance. Not because of concealing illegal activities, but because of the extent that the F&G went to, just to bust somebody, anybody, for minor infractions when they had nothing else to write. I think a lot of us learned right there that the friendship and commeradreie between the department and Sportsmen in general, had changed substantially. To this day, it is infraction and citation oriented, rather than service. Generally speaking, they don't like predator hunters. That day, they filmed all our people and trucks for their training, and sharing with other agencies. I talked to a Federal Ranger just outside Death Valley National Monument a couple years later, that told me he had seen the video, and recognized my partner's truck. Naturally, he pulled us over, asked a bunch of questions. I am making up nothing, draw your own conclusions. Good hunting. LB -------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off! Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged Rich 2,000th post PAKMAN Member # 112 posted March 02, 2003 12:57 PM                       Leonard, I believe every single word of your above post. Game Wardens are pretty much--Welllll Butt heads, and they are mostly not too educated on search and seizure rules. They are right up there with the Highway Patrol when it comes to giving a guy a break too. Most would write their own Mom a ticket. Regarding your friend's shotgun-- If he had the factory "plug" in the magazine, it would probably only hold five 2 & 3/4" shells anyway. Edit: Rich bangs head on floor while remembering that the dang "plug" limits the gun to three shells, not five! I do believe that my old winchester pump would hold six in there without the plug. [ March 02, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Rich ] -------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder. Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Wiley E Knows what it's all about Member # 108 posted March 02, 2003 01:15 PM                    L: "Needless to say, from that point forward, we made sure that everything was in season, as near as possible in all neighboring states, and became very careful about announcing the location of the check in, in advance." I guess they accomplished their mission then didn't they? Nobody wants any law enforcement around until they need it. Game Wardens or Conservation Officers have a difficult job to do at times. Most of them are decent folks. The nature of their job makes them appear uncaring at times. Given a choice between an overbearing game warden or a slob poacher, I'll take the overbearing game warden any day. I work with Conservation Officers on a daily basis and a lot of their job is pretty thankless. I listen to the snide comments about the cheesy tickets being written for not wearing blaze orange during a big game season. Try being the one to make the phone call that a husband was mistaken for a deer, shot and killed because he wasn't wearing blaze orange. Game Wardens cannot search without probable cause. Blood running from a vehicle would constitute probable cause as would guns and camo. Either would stand up in court as probable cause for search. ~SH~ [ March 02, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ] Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged onecoyote Knows what it's all about Member # 129 posted March 02, 2003 02:30 PM                   Well boys, I (usually) never say something like this unless I know the answer. I know the answer to this one I think. A game warden CAN enter your property without a warrant. I can't speak for every state but in a few states it's the law. If you want to take the time to check it out in your own state, you may be surprised. Leonard, I remember when the DFG showed up at one of our state check-ins on private property. Played havoc with everyone, I'm sure you remember that one, Good Hunting. -------------------- Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt. Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Rich 2,000th post PAKMAN Member # 112 posted March 02, 2003 02:40 PM                       I have no use for a slob. No matter if that slob is a poacher, a drug dealer or and overbearing Game Warden. Right is right and wrong is wrong. If there was no blood running out of the back of Leonard's camper, no strange odor like burnt grass or ammonia, no moans, groans or any other sign of criminal activity and no portion of illegal objects in plain view------hmmmmmmm, good thing the officer didn't find anything unlawful in there because he wouldn't be able to use it as evidence in court. No probable cause = no legal search. -------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder. Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Rich 2,000th post PAKMAN Member # 112 posted March 02, 2003 02:55 PM                       Onecoyote, You are talking about something a little different now. If a Game Warden knows there are hunters over there, he sure can go check their license. That does not mean that they can break in to your home without reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed there. Common sense is pretty much the rule. -------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder. Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Leonard HMFIC Member # 2 posted March 02, 2003 05:10 PM                       That's an interesting comment, Rich. As I recall, and Danny and I are talking about the same event at Rahaggues Game Preserve, in Norco, a private business; they never checked hunting licenses. They just searched every vehicle as it pulled in and got in line. Of course, the "probably cause" was apparently(?) that we were busy slaughtering an animal that enjoyed protected status, in California. No, Scott. I can't see how they gained anything except resentment. Never again was F&G invited, or welcome to check animals because since that event, we only gave information about the time and location of check in, to participants. Also, to clarify, we primarily structured our events around open seasons in California. In many cases, we intentionally have held our events just over the border in Nevada or Arizona. However, it was always an issue that we continued to defy the establishment by retaining lion and wolf, in our scoring system, even if it was a remote possibility. Of course, they fixed that later by criminalizing the importation of lion body parts, taken legally elsewhere, into the State. I know about poachers, especially here, which is mostly foreigners, Asian, as well as Mexicans, and the Wardens have been packing iron for quite a while, now. I think the animosity towards hunters, in general is misguided. Rich is right about the attitude, they would write their mother for a fish a quarter-inch undersize....although I don't know that for a fact? Like I said, tickets and real substantial fines is the order of the day. You need a lawyer to go over the regulations. Good hunting. LB -------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off! Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged Rich 2,000th post PAKMAN Member # 112 posted March 02, 2003 05:29 PM                       Leonard said -- "That's an interesting comment, Rich. As I recall, and Danny and I are talking about the same event at Rahaggues Game Preserve, in Norco, a private business; they never checked hunting licenses. They just searched every vehicle as it pulled in and got in line. Of course, the "probably cause" was apparently(?) that we were busy slaughtering an animal that enjoyed protected status, in California." Leonard, I do not doubt that this all happened just as you described. Without my knowing exact circumstances, I can't really say too much as to whether their actions were justified or not. The important thing for us to rememebr is that the fact that these Officers searched every car does not necessarily mean that it was legal for them to do so. I hear about improper searches of vehicles and persons quite often. I shake my head every single time that I hear of this type of thing. As you know, I am a retired Lawman myself and there is no man anywhere that is more pro-Police than I am. You and I both know that Lawmen do not always do things by the book, and a lot of their cases are thrown out of court because of that fact. I was no saint of a law man myself, but I also had a few confessions thrown out of court because of certain methods which I used now and then. -------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder. Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Leonard HMFIC Member # 2 posted March 02, 2003 05:49 PM                       Trust me, Rich. All historical facts easily substantiated. F&G went way overboard in their police powers on that particular afternoon. I especially enjoyed seeing that Lieutenant return Lyle's cats, after seizing them and putting them in his vehicle without a word of explanation. He was mortified. If I haven't given the impression already, there were more uniformed Wardens and top brass on the site than hunters. Maybe not, but it sure seemed like it. Whatever, they have a job to do, I know that, and there are some straight shooters amongst them, but the whole relationship between hunter and warden is changing here in California. I'm not happy about it, but I don't see any solutions, either. Good hunting. LB -------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off! Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged Rob Knows what it's all about Member # 75 posted March 02, 2003 05:50 PM                    Edit [ March 10, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Rob ] -------------------- "Where did all these #$%^&* Indians come from?" Gen. George Armstrong Custer Posts: 224 | From: Clancy Montana | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged varmit hunter Knows what it's all about Member # 37 posted March 02, 2003 06:00 PM                    I can only speak for Texas. A warden can completely search your vehicle, And home with out warrant. They can only look for game related violations. If they find contraband in your vehicle. They can hold you for other law enforcement. I have been checked many times by both Texas, And Louisiana wardens. They are some of the finest people I have ever meet. Due to the large amount of water ways in our aria. We have many drownings each year. These guys work around the clock to make recovery's. I have had only one problem with a out of line warden. I called the head man at Parks and Wildlife and told him my story. I received both a verbal and written apology. I agree with Wiley. These guys have a tough job. I appreciate them being out there. -------------------- Make them pay for the wind. Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged Wiley E Knows what it's all about Member # 108 posted March 02, 2003 06:03 PM                    L: "No, Scott. I can't see how they gained anything except resentment." Leonard, you just got done saying that from that point forward, you made sure that everything was in season, as near as possible in all neighboring states, and became very careful about announcing the location of the check in, in advance. Like it or not, exposure is part of a Game Warden's job and according to your own words, they did accomplish more than resentment. The highway patrol's mere presence along the highway slows cars down just as the presence of Game Wardens and Conservation Officers curb game violations. Do you think you can paint all Conservation Officers or Game Wardens based on this experience? Kinda like we paint all ADC programs as "scourched earth" programs huh? I suppose some hunters would feel fortunate that they never got drug out of their pickups and beat with night sticks? LOL! L: "Never again was F&G invited, or welcome to check animals because since that event, we only gave information about the time and location of check in, to participants." They don't need an invitation, if they suspected game violations, they would be there invitation or not and they wouldn't have trouble figuring out where the checkin was. ~SH~ Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Wiley E Knows what it's all about Member # 108 posted March 02, 2003 06:04 PM                    Thanks for the balance Varmit Hunter! (no "n") LOL! ~SH~ [ March 02, 2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ] Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged ChrisM PAKMAN Member # 135 posted March 02, 2003 06:16 PM                   Your rights of privacy are protected by the 5th amendment to our constitution. Like Rich said, The rules regarding search and seizure are the same for wardens as they are for any other officer of the law. These rules vary depending on the situation. Under the "open field doctrine" a warden or any other law enforcement officer can come on to private property to check hunting/fishing license etc.. This "Open field Doctrine" applies nationwide and has been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court. Unless the person in charge (may not be the owner) grants permission, NO officer can enter or search your home, garage, shed, fenced yard etc.. without a warrant. This is know as the "curtilage" rule, and extends to all areas where a "reasonable person would expect to have privacy." There are exceptions to the "curtilage rule" under the "open view" law. For instance, if a warden drives in to my yard and sees a deer hanging in the machine shed he can enter the shed to inspect it and issue me a ticket. He can't search other areas in the shed such as freezers etc.. without a warrant. Under most situations a warrant is also required to search your vehicle. An exception would be when an officer spots something illegal such as a roach clip in the ash tray. He then has the right to search all areas accessible to the driver and passenger. This would include the glove box, under the seat etc... but would not include the trunk. Of course if you refuse to allow the trunk to be searched the officer can detain you until a warrant is issued. Your vehicle at a Game & Fish road check is a unique case. By law you have to allow inspection of game and fish. That's why the officers always ask "how's the hunting or fishing" etc.. If you tell them you have any game or fish then you have to allow inspection. They can't just open up the back of your camper or look in your coolers etc.. without your permission. If you deny having anything but they have reason to believe you do, such as seeing feathers, blood or positive reaction by a scenting dog etc... they can detain you until a warrant is issued. This "right to inspect game and fish" extends to any and all law enforcement officers, not just wardens. Some states do have specific exceptions to privacy laws. In South Dakota for instance, when you apply for a license to operate a hunting preserve you agree to allow the inspection of your freezers during reasonable hours. Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Leonard HMFIC Member # 2 posted March 02, 2003 06:22 PM                       Scott, apparently I'm having trouble making myself understood. Previously, there was an open invitation to members of F&G to observe our events. And no, you are quite mistaken, they did not, and do not know the locations and times of the check ins. There is no Club official that would tell them before hand, and it would take a participant to cell phone that information once it was announced. Very unlikely, I assure you. Besides that, as I mentioned, we hold many events (just barely) out of state. Our security may not be air tight, but we're not stupid, either. I don't think you understand the level of resentment at the heavy handed tactics. LB -------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off! Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged Rich 2,000th post PAKMAN Member # 112 posted March 02, 2003 06:41 PM                       Chris M has covered the rules of search and seizure fairly well. There are a few small details he didn't mention but for most of us, that sure is good enough for now. Thank you Chris. -------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder. Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged ChrisM PAKMAN Member # 135 posted March 02, 2003 06:41 PM                   A warden can completely search your vehicle, And home with out warrant. They can only look for game related violations. If they find contraband in your vehicle. They can hold you for other law enforcement. Varmit Hunter, I'm wondering if you could post the case law that permits the state of Texas to violate its residents 5th admendament rights under the U.S Constitution? Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged kmitch199 PAKMAN Member # 84 posted March 02, 2003 06:50 PM                   In Pa.,the wardens have the ability to go anywhere and search anything with only the slightest hint of probable cause. If they think you may have anything illegal game related,they can go over your whole house,vehicles and person. -------------------- Keith Snyder Posts: 2 | From: Fleetwood,Pa. | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged Leonard HMFIC Member # 2 posted March 02, 2003 06:58 PM                       Chris, I don't know about Texas, but around here, they claim that some of the things that go on can be attributed to the endangered species act and authorized by Feds. Such as Leopard trophys, or maybe an informant telling about somebody that shot a glacier bear. In other words, something protected by Federal statute. The stories I have heard are told by big game hunters with many trophys and the raids go down just like a drug bust. Very little opportunity to refuse to submit to a warrantless search, while in your underwear. In at least one case I recall, it involved a taxidermist and I think they removed the contents of his freezer. But, it seems that the prime agency is always the California Department of Fish and Game. -------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off! Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged varmit hunter Knows what it's all about Member # 37 posted March 02, 2003 09:01 PM                    ChrisM here is the information you requested. I hope it is not fuel for one of these typorama, Mind numbing Diatribes, Run on fencing matches with key boards. I do not care to participate in a cyber chess match. Since you are new here. I am assuming you wont this information for your benefit. Not to through back in my face with quotation marks. Hope this helps, And by God welcome to Texas. Were every undesirable critter is referred to as a VARMIT. http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/pa/pa0001200.html#pa023.12.104 By the way receptacle means the refegerator in your house. [ March 03, 2003, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: varmit hunter ] -------------------- Make them pay for the wind. Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged ChrisM PAKMAN Member # 135 posted March 03, 2003 05:42 AM                   Varmit Hunter, no "typorama" here! I type waaaay to slow to get involved in them! lol Thanks for the information. I believe it reinforces what I stated previously. (Section 12.103 Entering Land) would be the "Open Field Doctrine" I spoke of. (Section 12.104 Right to Inspect) speakes to the law that requires you to allow inspection of game and fish. I see nothing though that permits officers to violate your right of curtilage by entering your home etc.. Leonard, no Fed can authorize the violation of our 5th amendament rights. Not even for the all powerful ESA. I don't doubt these "midnight raids" took place. But, rumors aside, I highly doubt that they were done without a warrant. Like Rich said, improper searches happen quite frequently and many cases are thrown out because of them. This nations search and seizure laws are very complicated and are constantly changing based on court cases. The rules of S&S are a major part of any law enforcement training. Most court cases will include a attempt by the defence to get evidence thrown out based on violations of the S&S laws. Remember the O.J.Simpson case? Kmitch199, I'm pretty sure the U.S. Constitution applies to all 50 states. Even PA. Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged randy moose merta Knows what it's all about Member # 145 posted March 03, 2003 10:07 AM                    chrism very good job on your information. i am a police detective in indiana and have been so for 13years. to those that believe that a conservation officer can do what he wants when he wants i have but one reply. 'we would all[law enforcement] be game wardens or conservation officers/agents if that was the case'. there would be no city,county,state or feds if that was the case. the police officers here on this site are pussy footing around on this issue because we are taught/trained to stretch search and seizure laws. we could tell you how to avoid most of these improper searchs but its our code not to let the cat out of the bag. Posts: 13 | From: chandler,indiana | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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