This is topic howling durring the day in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by TrapperDan (Member # 124) on February 24, 2003, 04:34 AM:
Is this something that you do or is it only done at nite .
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 24, 2003, 05:36 AM:
It's something that I do.
~SH~
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 24, 2003, 09:33 AM:
It's something I do. It's something the coyotes here sometimes do.
Posted by Silverfox (Member # 118) on February 24, 2003, 12:38 PM:
I don't hunt at night. But I do use howling during my daytime hunting. I don't always expect to get a vocal response from any coyotes within earshot, especially in the middle of the day. Over the years that I have used howling I have had vocal responses at just about every daylight hour. Most of the vocal responses, however, come in early morning or the last couple of hours before dark.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2003, 01:59 PM:
It's definitely something I do.
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 24, 2003, 02:14 PM:
It's something I've started doing.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 24, 2003, 07:35 PM:
I howl on most but not all of my daytime stands. I'm not real fond of howling in the late morning to early afternoon time frame. For mid-day hunting I prefer to walk in deeper and just use distress sounds. Seems to work better for me.
Dennis
Posted by TrapperDan (Member # 124) on February 25, 2003, 05:50 AM:
Thanks for all the replies , I will try that too . I never even seen a yote yet while calling so I dont know if Im doin something wrong or if thet just not interested .
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 03, 2003, 12:19 AM:
TrapperDan,
I have to agree with Greenside for the mostpart, untill about this time of year when the breedin season hits then I work on the territorial aspect. they may not sound off but they will come to see who's in their rompin grounds. Of corse I like it better when i know that they are commin but if you get anyware inside of their core area they will come for sure so be at the ready.
Smote the Yote
slydog
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 03, 2003, 04:31 PM:
It's something I seldom do.
~AzHunter~
----------------------
"Most coyotes act the same"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 03, 2003, 05:35 PM:
AZ, I nearly fell off my chair reading your "signature". You have one of those dry sense of humor. I hope I am not the only one that "gets" it?
I could list a couple times when howling helped me in southern Arizona, but I don't do it a whole lot, either. When they are running good, it's hard to see where it could help, they are already eagar.
But, I have seen the day when the coyotes turn spooky, for whatever reason. I know they are there, I can sometimes see a flash of color, but they are not showing; no matter what I try. On those infrequent occasions, I have had coyotes bust out of cover with howling. It's one more trick, and you certainly don't need many in that area, if you know where to go, right?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 03, 2003, 05:47 PM:
Howlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss and a yep yep. Waits five min. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Did anything happen yet?....Anybody see a coyote yet?.... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Man this ain't working,....I give up, ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Good Hunting. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 03, 2003, 09:04 PM:
Absolutely correct Leonard, it can be a valuable tool, and obviously there are more than a few guys who use it as their "primary" calling tool, I don't. The familar old qualifier of " in your particular area" fits my situation I suppose? I have tremendous response to my use of distress sounds, and "most of the time", can't imagine what more I'd want from a stand. There are times I utilize howling, this time of year as a matter of fact, but for most of my season as it were, distress sounds are very effective. I'd like to tag along with one of the guys that uses only howling to call and kill coyotes, Im sure it's interesting as hell, two divergent methods, that are by some accounts equally productive? Id like to see that. Lots of tools out there for us to utilize, howling happens to be the one in vogue now,an old technique, but its time has come again.....we will see much about it on video soon Im sure.
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 03, 2003, 09:22 PM:
Well said AZ-hunter and I'll bet you are right on the money about seeing more on howling, seems to be the trend.
I to like that Broken Wabbit! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Smote the Yote
Slydog
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 03, 2003, 10:38 PM:
I know howling works because I did it a couple times. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But you are not going to tell me you can howl in more coyotes then I can call in. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I think we may have to have a contest and if we do, you well lose. Good Hunting
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 04, 2003, 09:27 AM:
A good howler is a special use tool, nothing more. Here in the mid-west we have a lot of spooky coyotes and coyote population is not as high as most people think. Here in my part of Iowa for instance, there is a public road every mile and a lot of people traffic. Most of the coyotes are wise to the normal "screaming rabbit" routine. The howler helps call some of those coyotes that would not come to normal calling routine. I don't use just howling though. I use a mixture of howls and prey distress. It helps me kill some coyotes that I would never see otherwise. I think that most of us know that there is no real substitute for area's with high coyote population and very few people to screw things up. Life goes on, and we don't give up.
[ March 04, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 04, 2003, 09:52 AM:
Danny, I accept. BTW, I agree with Rich's post.
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 04, 2003, 10:03 AM:
Rich, I understand what you're saying. I bet if you came out here you'd knock em dead with the method you use. I forgot about areas and density, things like that happen when you get old ya know, Good Hunting.
Posted by coyotebuster (Member # 131) on March 04, 2003, 10:47 AM:
hey thats pretty cool. rich higgins made onecoyote back down!
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 04, 2003, 01:26 PM:
He did not, I was just being nice, so there.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 04, 2003, 01:48 PM:
Howling for coyotes is VERY effective year around,especially when mixed with regular distress calls.I guess the way I look at it is that if you use howling in combination with a rabbit call,you will call in all of those EAGER coyotes that would come in with just a plain ol'rabbit call anyway plus if you have those COYOTES that are a little reluctant to come in, they will be more likely to come in with added confidence because of the Howling.Kill two birds,I mean coyotes with one stone. GOOD HUNTING Chad.......
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2003, 04:14 PM:
Maybe Danny should start a thread about special techniques for hunting areas with a coyote density of six per acre? Step one, find it.
Maybe a valid question would be, if you had to use just one, would you use a howler or a rabbit call? I know, I know. Both, right?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 04, 2003, 07:14 PM:
I have no idea how many coyotes can live in any given area. I do know not to many can live in an acre?
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 04, 2003, 07:20 PM:
See Leonard; thats why Im skeptical on some of the arguements concerning howling. If done in conjunction with prey distress, how can one assume it was the addition of the howl, that turned the worm?when the howl might have been ignored, and the response was due primarily to the distress sound. Did the coyote come, in SPITE of the howling, or because of it? I propose, that I could play "home on the range" with my harmonica, prior to beginning my "continuous" series of cottontail distress, and I would call coyotes. Back when I used to use only mouth calls, I remember well the unfortunate moments when a coughing jag was the prelude to my distress calls, and sure as hell coyotes would come. Now, Im not so ignorant to suggest that howling is not a usefull tool, to many guys have used it successfully, as I have occasionally. I just don't think it's the silver bullet some wish it to be. The theory of using a howl and a bark or two, prior to using the rabbit distress sounds is a hard one to substantiate. You can rub a rabbits foot, toss a penny over your shoulder, or use a myriad of other "techniques", and coyotes will come in....but was it "because" of what you did before using the distress sound? Tough to know for sure, given the choice between a howler or my distress makers, gimme the distress every time.
Posted by coyotebuster (Member # 131) on March 05, 2003, 05:17 AM:
yeah okay onecoyte but it sure looked like you were backing down from your own chalenge.
Posted by WolverineAtWork (Member # 23) on March 05, 2003, 06:36 AM:
how can one assume it was the addition of the howl, that turned the worm?
AZ,
Rich Higgins could express this better than I can, but my thoughts on it are, how did the coyote come into the call? Fast? Slow? Hackles up approaching cautiously? Stealthy? Aloof? I'm thinking that quite a bit can be learned by observing thier response/approach to the call.. (that is if you don't shoot them at the first opportunity)
Posted by CougerBait (Member # 149) on March 05, 2003, 08:41 AM:
Howling is effective. I have called then in the day and night with just howling. And I have a much better response to a disrtess call when I mix howling in with it.
But that just may be the area that I'm in too. We get allot of people in the woods here that don't hunt coyote that much. and they educate to coyote early in the season. Just my .02
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 05, 2003, 11:58 AM:
Question: "how can one assume it was the addition of the howl, that turned the worm?"
That's a fair question in many situations, in others it's not.
On a windy day I have watched coyotes that could not hear the wabbit scweams hear and respond to a howl.
How many times do you guys get coyotes to vocally respond to a wabbit scweam?
With howling it's quite common even East of Yuma Arizona.
Three good reasons to howl:
1. Selling them the idea that there is a coyote there from a territorial standpoint.
2. Distance
3. Locating coyotes.
Clarification: "No two coyotes act the same IN ALL SITUATIONS"
~SH~
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2003, 03:49 PM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Cougarbait.
I have a question for you, I'm not setting you up, or anything like that, but in your post, you mentoned that you get a better response when you mix distresss and howling.
Do you think you could describe what you mean by "better response"? Are you saying that they don't go downwind, or they come in faster, or what?
My comment in response the the last few posts is that I am sure we all agree that some howling can be a good thing. I don't see that anyone is claiming that it doesn't work. In some areas, it appears that it is the key to much better results, especially post season. I know a little bit about east of Yuma, and believe that a fella can manage quite well without howls, more often than not. I think we are trying to figure out just what it does and what to expect, and what it won't do. As far as shooting them at the first opportunity, I'm guilty of that; nothing is to be gained by letting them get in too close....for my purposes.
Coyote Buster, I don't recognize the name, but you have made about five posts since registering, and they all appear to be somewhat critical of other members, such as Frank and Danny. I'm not telling you that it can't be done, maybe there is some history? But it doesn't seem the way to start off on the right foot, either? I hope I'm mistaken, and if so, apologize for bringing it up. Especially Danny, he's such a lovable old coot. He is able to issue and/or retract his own challenges, without help.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 05, 2003, 05:04 PM:
I think Wiley did a good job explaining why howling is so effective in his post.Added confidence is a big factor because it plays off there territorial instincts,along with increased volume.I can't think of a time when howling effected my stand negatively.So if it doesn't hurt your success to use howling,and we all agree that at least some of the time howling works why not use it.Just my two cents GOOD HUNTING Chad....
[ March 05, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 05, 2003, 05:10 PM:
I howl, sometimes I get some kind of response and sometimes I don't. I do it because of what I think, which is often debated.
It adds realism,which helps promote curiosity, and it is a sound that has some reach to it.
Please read the following at your own risk, the material that follows has not been sceintifically proven and is not agreed upon by all howlers.
I think that each howl is discernable to humans and coyotes and "if" all understood, a certain howl in a situation will bring a different response to each, good, bad or indifferent, and is repeatable.
And No I don't have the proof yet, but I am working on it as diligently as work and the pregnant wife will allow.
later pup
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2003, 05:37 PM:
That's the good thing about these boards, pup. You can speculate all you want, and we won't hold it against you. See this stuff is, and it isn't, Rocket Science. And as one Guru has said in the past, none of it is graven in stone. I like these brainstorming sessions, it's always food for thought, even if your position hasn't budged an inch.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 05, 2003, 07:39 PM:
Old Coot huh? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Funny you say that today Leonard, today was my 60th..damn. Hey Coyotebuster, it's ok man....I come here to have fun and give my opinion ( not always right). Most of all I think us guys have a respect for each other as predator hunters. Maybe not everybody feels that way, but that's how I feel. Coyotebuster, another opinion of mine is you can't find more guys that know more about predator hunting then you'll find right here in this fourm. Remember that's just my opinion my friend. Somebody was talking about east of Yuma? I don't know anything about it, Good Hunting.
Posted by coyotebuster (Member # 131) on March 06, 2003, 05:16 AM:
sorry, no dissrepsect just thought we were going to have a real compitition and get some money where the mouth is. i dont know onecoyote but ive heard plenty about rich higgins.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 06, 2003, 06:01 AM:
OneYipper,
Happy Birthday you young whipper snapper you! Hehehe!
Leonard,
Nobody said you couldn't fair well with traditional calling methods.
The question still remains, how many coyotes do you locate by getting them to vocally respond to a rabbit distress call?
When I leave a stand, I am usually heading to another group of coyotes I located VIA HOWLING while shooting the ones I just shot. Such was also the case East of Yuma. I mention this only to point out that this didn't change when I went to AZ. to hunt with Joe Melton a few years back.
Howling to locate coyotes is a real key in accomplishing my goal of calling coyotes on over 50% of my stands. I certainly don't always reach that goal but locating coyotes via howling makes it more attainable.
My success per stand is also more productive because you can set your stands up according to where you located the coyotes. You know what direction they will probably come from, you can eliminate blind spots, you can set youself up so you can handle multiple coyotes better, and you can make sure the wind is to your advantage.
This is not to suggest that howling is a replacement for distress calls, it's not. It's simply a nice addition to them and like Utah stated, I have never seen where it did anything but add to my success.
Pup,
Best of luck in your research but make sure you eliminate as many variables as you can.
Filming a coyote coming to a particular vocalization doesn't tell anyone whether or not that same coyote would have responded equally to a different howl.
If you sneak up on an UNSUSPECTING group of coyotes and try one vocalization which does not elicit a response, then switch to another vocalization that does elicit a response. You will learn something.........unless it just took them that long to finally respond to the first vocalization.
I hope you learn something new, I sincerely do!
I know some coyote vocalizations that will elicit more action than a lone howl in some situations but I save those as a last resort. Neither is even close to a howl.
~SH~
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 06, 2003, 06:25 AM:
AZ hunter said "The theory of using a howl and a bark or two, prior to using the rabbit distress sounds is a hard one to substantiate."
First of all I would like to say that if Az hunter is who I think he is (Vic?) then I know that he calls more than just a FEW predators. I also know that I envy his ability with a rifle.
OK, I did state that I use howling with prey distress screams mixed in. Did I say anything in that post about the prey distress sound being a rabbit scream? Nope. If Az only knew which "prey" distress I was really talking about then he could better understand why the howl is such a large part of the method I use these days. I am not saying that a man can't go out and call a heck of a lot of coyotes with rabbit screams either. Murray Burnham didn't use howling and I don't think Johnny Stewart did either. A lot of coyotes are still called yet today with nothing but rabbit screams. Does this mean that there isn't something else that would work even better under certain circumstances?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 06, 2003, 07:46 AM:
Like Wiley said,it is great to know where the coyotes are that you are calling(locating).So number one you know that you are calling to coyotes that can hear you,second you can set up your stand accordingly.There have been MANY MANY times while on a stand that I don't even get a chance to use a distress call because they come in with just a lone howl.Would they have come in to just plain rabbit distress sounds who knows,maybe, maybe not.But the point is the howl was what brought them in.And this has been at all times of the year.When howling stops working I'll stop using it. GOOD HUNTING Chad......
Posted by WolverineAtWork (Member # 23) on March 06, 2003, 08:40 AM:
"The question still remains, how many coyotes do you locate by getting them to vocally respond to a rabbit distress call?"
Methinks that if it were well established that coyotes would respond vocally, (announcing "hey, I'm here, I'm hungry and I'm on my way in for a quick snack..) that rabbits would tend to suck it up and not "distress" so much. hehe...
"I know some coyote vocalizations that will elicit more action than a lone howl in some situations but I save those as a last resort. Neither is even close to a howl."
Wiley, without going into too much detail, (unless you want to) what kind of triggers are you trying to set off with these vocalizations? (ie. territorial, mating, hunger, etc.)
[ March 06, 2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: WolverineAtWork ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 06, 2003, 09:30 AM:
Wolverine: "Methinks that if it were well established that coyotes would respond vocally, (announcing "hey, I'm here, I'm hungry and I'm on my way in for a quick snack..) that rabbits would tend to suck it up and not "distress" so much. hehe..."
LOL!
The point is that locating coyotes has value and seldom do coyotes respond vocally to a rabbit scream. At times they will but not even close to as often as they do by howling.
I believe one sound I use triggers their territorial, curiousity, and maternal instincts.
I believe the other sound I use elicits both a territorial and hunger instinct but mainly the territorial instincts of the adults.
With that said, I have a lot of confidence in both sounds but I would be the first to tell you that they may not be any more productive than some other LESS COMMON prey distress sounds.
In open country like I have around here, you have a lot more opportunity to observe coyote reactions to certain sounds than you do in areas of heavy cover.
Another quick observation story. I saw a coyote heading in a particular direction one day and tried blowing an "old reliable" sound at it. The coyote glanced my way and kept going. I tried all the other magical sounds in my bag of tricks to no avail. I waited then tracked this coyote to a fresh cow carcass and shot it.
What I had to offer was not worth as much as this particular coyote's "predetermined" sure thing.
Had I not tracked this coyote, I would have reached, YET ANOTHER, false conclusion based on a shallow observation.
One last thing on this topic. APPROXIMATELY 60% of MOST coyote populations is young of the year that have never heard the dying rabbit blues. In areas of heavy coyote populations, you will more than likely call in all the coyotes you can shoot with traditional sounds.
I am biased towards hunting educated coyotes as those are the ones that remain after the fur harvest.
~SH~
[ March 06, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by CougerBait (Member # 149) on March 06, 2003, 10:42 AM:
Leonard thank you for welcoming me to the board!
Allot of the areas that I hunt have heavier timber that what most guys hunt, or i'm in the clear cuts. I would have to say that no matter what type of calling that I do, most of the coyotes go to the down wind side. And the areas that I hunt it can make it real hard to set up all stands just right. some times I have to go through 5 or 6 stands before I can find one that is good to hunt with out them getting the upper hand right away. Also with the areas that I hunt makes it allot harder to see them when they do come in.
As far as a better response!! I have found that when using howling by it's self or with distress sounds that the coyotes in my area show them selfs more. I just see more when I do that. But again I really have to watch the down wind side.
It is my personal opinion the all the areas that I hunt on the west side of the Cascades get over called. It seens as if every outdoor publication puts atleast 1 artical in saying keep you skills on edge in the off season by hunting coyotes. In the early fall I have no problem calling in coyotes here while I'm bear hunting with just distress calls. it is like they come out of the wood work. But come the middle of October on it gets real hard. I have gone 80 to 100 stands with out even seeing 1. That tells me one of two things.
1. The hunting pressure on them is way high.
2. or they are coming in with out me seeing them.
Now most of the time I'm out there by myself. the the second one is a very good posibilty. But when I started useing a cirtin howl I stard seeing more coyotes. So it makes me think that the first one is a better annelis (sp) than the second.
I could be all wrong. I don't have near the knowledge that you guys have. I have only been at this for 2 years.
Last year at this time I hunted every chance I could from the end of Jan to the beginning of March day and night. I did not see one coyote. and all I used was distress calls. Since this fall I have been using both and the coyotes that I have seen when they come in has gone up 10 fold. But I still don't see them like mosesman or curt. I think that the lay of the land and the amount of pressure is what hinders us on the west side. But I do think that the population of coyotes here is just as good.
Give it a couple of more years and I think I will more sucess.
As far as which howl I use, I really couldn't tell you. I think that it is a cross between a spacer and a lone.
I hope that I answered the question that you had. Sorry that this is so long winded. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
[ March 06, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: CougerBait ]
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 06, 2003, 10:47 AM:
Utcaller and I don't see eye to eye all the time. We are both very strong in our belifes and hard to sway, but by golly when he's right he's right. I completely agree with the fact that,
" you will call in all of those EAGER coyotes that would come in with just a plain ol'rabbit call anyway plus if you have those COYOTES that are a little reluctant to come in, they will be more likely to come in with added confidence because of the Howling.Kill two birds,I mean coyotes with one stone."
I think you are right on the money here Chad, and I think it was well said also.
Smote the Yote
Slydog
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 06, 2003, 11:34 AM:
coyotebuster, onecoyote is Danny Batastini, one of the giants of the Ca. predator calling fraternity. Like Leonard, he is a veteran of the calling club's grinding, marathon competitions that required 40+ animals to win. His treatment of your posts tells a great deal about how secure he is of his status amongst callers. Danny did not "backdown" so much as re-evaluate his ideas about the subject and change his mind. Reasonable men can do that.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 06, 2003, 11:37 AM:
Thanks sly,I appreciate that.
Cougerbait,I think the reason you are having more success in Sept. is because there are alot more coyotes out and about.Both the older adult coyotes and the young of the year,both of which have not heard alot of calling yet.As the year goes on there will be more hunting pressure which means 1)less coyotes because some are getting killed and 2)Some that haven't been killed are wised up to calling and are very reluctant to come in to your calling.As far as coyotes slipping down wind of you.Yep,that's what they do most of the time,I usually set up with the wind at my back and have a little of Leonards mist ready to spray downwind throughout my stand.When they come in,I'm ready and waiting.I've had quite a bit of luck doing it so like that ol' Barbra Mandrel song goes "If calling that way is wrong I don't wanna be right." LOL!GOOD HUNTING Chad......
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 06, 2003, 12:00 PM:
Rich, thanks for those really nice words. I never said I was smart, but reasonable sounds
good to me....is that close to smart? Rich, people only know me because I've been around along time. I never was one of the great hunters or callers...I just out lived em is all I did. Woooops, except for Leonard, he's still around...God bless his old soul hehehe. Coyotebuster, there are a bunch of great guys in this fourm, enjoy it my friend, Good Hunting.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 06, 2003, 12:47 PM:
So....as to Leonards proposition; if you had to choose between using only a howler, or a distress type call, which would it be? This is all purley hypothetical, but do you place more stock in using coyote vocalizations, or distress sounds. Im kinda like ole waskilly Wiley, I like going after those older mature coyotes... pretty devils. I would guess 40% of the coyotes Ive taken thus far have been old mature dogs. These came just as readily to distress sounds as the young did earlier in the year. Yesterday was another magical day, took out a pard to great big open country like you Montana and Dakota boys would recoginize. Windy, cool, scattered rain, called 8 killed 6, one young female, five old veteran males. Calving time, and antelope are getting ready to drop, so dogs are on the prowl now. All called with distress sounds, although I did use a barks and yips to check up the coyotes for a shot. All coyotes were seen responding from over 500 yards away, some seemed like they came from the next county:) I swear I don't know how they heard the call, I had it 30 yards in front of me and I couldn't hear it, had to ask buddy if it was going. I had several coyotes pounding in from downtown man, and I picked them up from half mile away, and they were coming with the wind, not up it.....amazing animals aren't they? So, if you were forced to have one or the other, howler or distress caller, which is it guys?
~AzHunter~
---------------------
"When you think your bringing something to the table, check under the lid of the server before you present it to your guests"
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 06, 2003, 02:33 PM:
AZHunter,To me it is like asking what I would take out on a stand if forced to,My gun or my bullets.They go hand in hand.I have been using both for so long I would feel naked without having both with me.I have called alot of coyotes with just a howler,and I have called alot of coyotes with just distress calls,but if I had to choose I would take the howler.Reason is it is easier to Locate coyotes with a howler,I can also use my howler to produce distress sounds if needs be.So I would say The Howler hands down. GOOD HUNTING Chad....
[ March 06, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 06, 2003, 02:41 PM:
A howeler ore the wabbit scweams? Suuch a deficult dacishun?
Hmmmmm???
Ide hafta saay the howeler becuz only thems witch focus on spelling problems would pick wabbit scweams over howling.
Hehehe! (patent pending for Dan Bad Ass Teeny)!
~SH~
[ March 06, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 06, 2003, 03:16 PM:
C'mon Az, you've got a "Sophie's Choice" thing going. I will not give up my howler, I will not give up my distress calls, and you can't make me. What I would like to do, is invite you to come up here and hunt wih me and Tyler. This is not a challenge but a sincere invitation. We could alternate calling stands and maybe I could learn something from you and maybe you could learn something about what we do.
Posted by Ok .257 (Member # 92) on March 06, 2003, 03:44 PM:
Howling in all its tones and inflections and meanings is a tool that no dog hunter can afford to ignore. Even if they don't respond directly or specifically to the howl it will definitely get their attention and hpoefully at the very least get their curiosity up enough to pay attention to what is going on your direction.
Use the howl as a valuable tool and learn from your experience.
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 06, 2003, 04:33 PM:
This is getting better all the time. ONLY ONE WAY to find out what works better and that is to all meet in Yuma Arizona some Saterday morning early. Ten guys have howlers and ten guys have hand calls and ten more guys have both. Everybody has to come back to Yuma on Sunday afternoon and lets see who gets the most coyotes? The losers have to buy the winners all the beer they want, sound good? P.S J/K hahaha.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 06, 2003, 06:06 PM:
Onecoyote,
Yuma Huh? Sounds like a good western movie to me. Remember 3:10 to Yuma? Now THAT was a good one.
AZ,
I guess I would chose my howler but it would be sort of cheating. My howler is tuned to make the distress cry's too.
There are a great bunch of guys over here now. I am getting almost too old to hunt but I can still talk about it just as good as Danny can. Well not quite as good. Hey Danny, did you tell these fellers about that two headed coyote you called in last year?
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 06, 2003, 09:02 PM:
I can squeeze out a pretty fair howl and believable barks with my distress call, just as you howlers can wring out fair distress calls with your horns. The question is, without using them for dual purpose, which would you take if it was the only call you could use. Utah is the only one to come clean, and say he wouldn't leave home without it, or was that his ammunition:) Anyone else believe that the howler is more productive on the whole, than a distress sound? Just an informal survey, no right or wrong answer here.
~AzHunter~
--------------------------
"Never take yourself more serious than your subject"
[ March 06, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on March 06, 2003, 09:20 PM:
I'm a big believer in howling. It has been a huge benefit to my calling. If I was backed into a corner and had to choose though, I'd take the distress sounds.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 06, 2003, 09:28 PM:
Thank you Lonny, .........this topic has been like pulling teeth:)
~AzHunter~
------------------------
"Most coyotes act the same"
Posted by CougerBait (Member # 149) on March 06, 2003, 10:00 PM:
I think the biggest part of the debate is what area you live in. Even just in my state there is a very big difference (sp). And also the time of year. I all ways go out with both.
But if I had to pick one and I was hunting my side of the state it would have to be the howler.
If I was down in AZ it would be the distress.
just my .02
[ March 06, 2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: CougerBait ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 07, 2003, 04:32 AM:
Asks a question then is critical of the answers.
Answer: The howler!
~SH~
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 07, 2003, 05:30 AM:
Az, which do you prefer? Sodium or chloride? Pick one. That is how I see your question. I would feel handicapped without a distress call. I would feel handicapped without a howler. I could get by with one and without the other. Together they form salt.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 07, 2003, 05:57 AM:
Exactly Rich Higgins!
Let's see, do I want the car with or without the engine?
Hmmmmmm???
~SH~
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on March 07, 2003, 06:21 AM:
I would have to pick........hummmmmm..........let's seeeee......ahhhhh......... Coyotes Fighting Over Food on the WT!!!! Best of both worlds!! LOL
If given the choice, it would have to be my howler, at this point in time. I can certainly call more coyotes EAST of the River with it, as well as here.
You asked,
Steve
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on March 07, 2003, 06:30 AM:
I'm picking the distress call, even though my answer is causing me enough anxiety that I just might throw up. Can I please have a siren or take my partner along to voice howl?
I think the important thing in all of this is to admit when something is working and when it's not working. Why would anyone howl if they were shooting coyotes all day, every day with distress calls? Or why would a person use a distress call if they were howling in coyotes on every stand?
If I drive 500-700 miles for a weekend of coyote hunting, and howl on the first 6-8 stands of day, with out putting a coyote in the box, I'm going to distress calls for the next 6-8 stands. Then I'll what's working or what's not working.
Dennis
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 07, 2003, 07:11 AM:
I'd go with the howler, a little practice or slight modification depending on which type that you have and it makes a good distress sound. Then again you have always got the old pucker, which is a very good distress call.
later pup
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on March 07, 2003, 07:22 AM:
Foul! I thought we were not allowed to make distress sounds with the howler?
Dennis
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 07, 2003, 08:02 AM:
Rich, you remembered that two headed coyote I got a couple years ago? Wow. Ok....I'm going to let the cat out of the bag....this is my secert and I want all the new guys to pay attention. I was using a two speed double reeded rabbit screaming howler. They are very hard to find, I think the only one ever made belongs to me. But if by chance you can find one, you'll be calling more animals then you have ever seen, Emmm Good Hunting
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 07, 2003, 08:59 AM:
I suppose I would choose a Tally-Ho and make my hunter-in-distress sounds and promise not to howl with it. Yeah, right.
I can't remember when there was a time that I didn't have more than one call available to me at any given moment. That's like taking one fishing lure to the lake for a whole day of fishing. Even old farts like Steve Craig carries a hand call or two in case lightening should disable his WT.
As for howling during the day.... Yes I howl quite often during daylight hours but generally knock it off around 10AM unless the dogs are still vocal. This happens on occassion.
Typically I mimic their sounds as best I can and however far away they sound, double that distance to get a true reading. After they calm down I will pick up and move closer and howl/yip some more to see if they answer. Again, after they calm down I will move in closer. After a couple moves, the next time you hear then will sound as though they are moving towards you. I sit tight when this happens and may start asoft, very slow calling series so I can listen.
This method doesn't always work, but works better than anything I've tried to date. Many times you may get answers from more than one direction. When this happens I evaluate the easiest way to move in closer to them and not necessarily the closest coyote. First choice would be to jump in the truck and drive a 1/4 mile or so rather than walk. Second choice would be either wind (depending on how brisk) or ease of walking (for me).
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 07, 2003, 09:34 AM:
Foul??
A puppy whine or whimper, is a coyote vocalization, which I do on my howler. I thought the choice was ,rabbit sounds, against howler, which I take to mean as coyote sounds. Is it a foul?, I think not. But as previously stated, my thoughts are often debated and are not always agreed upon by those who howl. I know a whine is a distress sound and a good one.
If you are including all distress sounds against just howls, then I am going to say that I don't want a car without the engine. I guess I'll just ride my bike.
The rest of this post is just ramblings of an coyote hunter trying to figure out which call is staying in the truck.
And this debate according to the methods of several out there can't be summed up very easily.
There are too many variables out there, and I agree to this to some extent.
I know that when I added howling to my stands, my success rate went up , more than doubled. Now was that because the coyotes were more attracted to the howls or did it just put a realistic sound out there, or did they still just sit there during the howl and only started coming after they heard the rabbit distress and because I had howled it seemed to be a more realistic situation, or did the howl reach out there farther than the rabbit and they started coming on the howl and sat down and waited until I started the rabbit until they came the rest of the way in. Who Knows? Who will ever know? Did the coyote sit down (downwind) because he smelled Leonard's magic mist in the air or was it because he was tired and just couldn't travel any further after all the scratching and marking that he had been doing. Who knows? Who will ever know? Did the coyote the other day realize that he was about to die after he seen the blob spit tobacco on the ground? Who knows? Who will ever know? If somebody thinks that they know it all. They are in for a big suprise and are in the proccess of being made a fool of by a coyote. The coyotes are in the business of staying alive. They are the most adaptable animal in my opinion that is out there. Too much of anything does not bring balance. You can call coyotes with rabbit distress and you can call coyotes with howls. How or which is best can't be determined by a simple get together although I am all for it. I love picking the brain of those out there, who can share. The question is why would you handicap yourself and not use all the tools that are out there to use. We as coyote hunters are handicapped already by the mentallity that it takes to be successful. This discussion is taking the turn towards the discussion of traditional bare bow compared to loaded out compound bow. Suit yourself. Who knows?
later pup
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 07, 2003, 10:35 AM:
pup: my thoughts are often debated and are not always agreed upon by those who howl."
SOME THOUGHTS are "periodically" questioned, not necessarily NOT AGREED UPON. Questioned!
pup: "Who Knows? Who will ever know? (4 times)"
EXACTLY!
Bravo!
Perfect!
Excellent post with more questions than answers!
My sentiments exactly!
"Who knows, who will ever know!"
It gives me such a warm feeling inside just to hear you say that.
Coyote theories "etched in soap"!
My kinda guy!
Here's a hug and a beer mug! LOL!
I'm not being sarcastic either.
~SH~
[ March 07, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 07, 2003, 10:58 AM:
This one is easy to me... I have only howled on one stand ever, so I can easily leave a tool I never use behind... I would go with distress.
Jeff 
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 07, 2003, 11:26 AM:
Az hunter can make a believable howl with his open reed rabbit call. Now that is impressive.
Wiley,
I think that I will take the engine without the car. Just kidding. Hey remember that real windy stand in south dakota where you howled at a distant coyote with an Austin howler but the coyote couldn't hear it? Then you stuck the Austin in a buffalo horn and called that bugger up so close that we could smell his breath? A regular open reed rabbit call that makes believable coyote howls. LOL, I hope it is calm days and tin eared coyotes.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 07, 2003, 04:15 PM:
Rich,
I still chuckle when I remember that single coyote leaving the country with my dog and you making some comment about "we're not going to see him again".
I snapped back something about "this game isn't over yet". LOL!
The reality is that sometimes they don't come back but in most cases, the aggressive adults that are most prone to killing stock are also the easiest to get with the dogs.
I enjoyed our time hunting together.
I gave my best dog to another young trapper that needed him worse than I did. I don't have as many sheep left, mostly cattle now.
Hope things are going well!
~SH~
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 07, 2003, 06:26 PM:
Wiley,
As your dog chased yon coyote completely over the hill and out of sight, I remember saying "Why That dog is gonna chase that coyote clear out of the country!" Your answer to me was exactly what you posted above-"Nope, this game ain't over yet!". When I saw the dog on his way back to us a bit later, with the coyote now chasing the dog--- I could hardly believe my eyes! That was my first experience in actually watching coyotes being worked by a good dog. That experience taught me a great deal, as did another stand or two on that hunt. Proof positive that an old dog like me can still learn new tricks.
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on March 07, 2003, 06:48 PM:
Old Fart!!!! Who are you calling an old Fart??? Just because I'm laid up for awhile! You got to pick on me! Doc gave me a clean bill of health today, so this old fart will be back out there gettin' them pretty quick! Still only runnin' on 7 cylinders though. But that will change soon. Yeah and I do carry some of those old Rhino calls in my pocket, but I got to clean the mold and mildew off them once in a while and give them a "blow" just to keep them otey's honest from time to time. Dont make fun of my WT! I dont think lightning would put it out of commission. I know for a fact that a 50gr. PSP from a 222Rem will though! Client put it right in the Tweeter at 175 yards. Bad part is he missed one of the 4 foxes that was standing in front of it! Good part is he peeled out $1200.00 on the spot and stuck it in my pocket when he saw the explosive results! Only critter he missed on the entire hunt! My back up WT was gettin' mold and mildew too from lack of use, so we continued huntin'. Ended being a great hunt!
Steve
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 07, 2003, 06:56 PM:
Steve Craig,
Did you mount that WT on a plaque or anything? Sounds like an interesting trophy.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 07, 2003, 07:07 PM:
Yeah Steve, you dress and skin the WT or did you make the client do it?
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on March 07, 2003, 07:14 PM:
Rich,
Yes I did!....Kinda! I removed all the guts out of it, mailed them back to Bill so he could see if anything was salvageable, but alas, it was not to be. I rewired the wolfer and what was left of the tweeter(1/3 of the magnet was shot off) and believe it or not, they still work when you hook then up to the new WT! It was my old back pack model. I have it sitting in a place of honor on my reloading bench.....collecting dust!
Rich Higgins,
I just drug it home. figured it was just to tough to skin! Client went home and bought two units for himself.(he is from Alaska) and he has come back to hunt on 2 more occasions. He has called several lynx in with his unit.
Steve
[ March 07, 2003, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Steve Craig ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 07, 2003, 09:08 PM:
Too funny Steve.
Sorry to hear you're under the weather a bit, but geeze, what can I say, the earth's crust was still warm when you were born ol fella.
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