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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 23, 2003, 04:40 PM:
Coyote Survival Behavior in Western South Dakota Remains Unchanged
Hehehe!
Chad,
Had a couple friends out from Rochester, MN this weekend. We went calling in the Cheyenne River Breaks to give these guys a chance to see new country. The wind was blowing about 20mph and the temps ranged from zero to -3. We had no choice but to try calling with the wind. @!#@!@!
On one particular stand we had a perfect situation. A little shelf OVER THE HILL and above a woody creek. There was no wind there at all and the snow was actually swirling back at us. I thought hey this is going to work. Called up a crippled female for one guy but the lousy .17 Rem he was shooting couldn't penetrate the buckbrush in front of the coyote's chest. Oh well, success was had by simply calling one in downwind that I spotted coming from 1/2 mile away.
Again, keep in mind that this was a shelf above the creek facing the SE towards the creek and the 20 mph wind was out of the Northwest. The wind was not carrying our scent from the shelf to the creek. The snow swirling back towards us confirmed the "undertow" for lack of a better term.
Chalk one up for Utah Caller! LOL!
OK, so next stand. We are up on the edge of the ridge where the wind has a cut at us. Howled once and watched 3 coyotes come out of a Juniper pocket, wind us and leave out of rifle range FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME. LOL!
I just wanted to let you know that nothing has changed. LOL!
Seriously though, I think there really is a lesson to be learned in regards to how scent carries. Ed and I even touched lightly on the subject before. There may be some air pressure systems or thermals that are more common to some areas than other areas that carry our scent differently.
There also may be areas where human scent is more common to coyotes and they are less afraid of it than other areas ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE COVER IN THEIR APPROACH AND THEIR DEPARTURE.
See, I don't have blinders on but I know what I see with my own eyes time and time again.
Forgive me that I can't just leave this issue alone but I really believe there is more to learn here.
~SH~
Posted by WolverineAtWork (Member # 23) on February 23, 2003, 09:14 PM:
"There also may be areas where human scent is more common to coyotes and they are less afraid of it than other areas"
Very true, here's a few photos from calling a dairy this Sat. All of these shots are taken directly downwind. I started out w/ 5 coyotes called off a silage pile, but only 3 of them wanted to hang around and play.
Ranges varied from 10 to 30 yards.
There's actually 3 coyotes here.. the third is behind the bush in front of these two.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 24, 2003, 05:33 AM:
Your pics depict two important elements.
1. Habitat that allows a coyote to conveniently circle down wind and quickly hide if necessary.
2. An area where it is common for coyotes to frequent human scent without having a negative experience related to it.
Coyote's adapt their behavior to fit their environment. That's why will never figure them out.
What I do know is that calling with the wind, IN THIS MORE OPEN COUNTRY WITH LESS PEOPLE, is fruitless. If they get your wind they are gone. When they smell humans IN THEIR TERRITORY as opposed to ours, it usually spells danger IN THIS COUNTRY.
(caps for emphasis only)
~SH~
[ February 24, 2003, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 24, 2003, 09:54 AM:
Wiley described coyotes use of scent and terrain in this area perfectly. The desert is full of hikers and hunters, mt bikers and farm/ranch workers. Human scent is everywhere. In areas where no shooting is permtted, like the dairy in @W pics, the coyotes are more relaxed than in areas where they are shot at on sight. They still believe their nose and will make every effort to get downwind. We try to setup so downwind is open and they have to expose themselves to wind us. In this area the coyotes use the washes and rolling terrain and brush to approach unseen. Having them pop up suddenly is the norm. Most often we aren't sure which direction they will approach from. We do know that eventually they will wind up downwind. Downwind has to be clear.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2003, 02:22 PM:
Wiley,I would be a liar if I said I NEVER call with the wind in my face or with a cross wind.LOL
I would say though,90% of the time I try to set up with the wind at my back.And for the same reason you mentioned."With my own eyes" I've seen one to many coyotes try to come in from behind to get my scent,and have caught me off guard.When calling with the wind at my back,Leonards "mist" works well enough to confuse them long enough to get a good shot MOST of the time.I think you are right when you say that scent travels differently depending on the area.I call some pretty open areas,but most of the time I'm on a hillside,I sometimes wonder if my scent really does travel down the hill and directly to the coyote.Who knows.LOL All I know is that calling with the wind at my back has sure worked for me over the years,and I'm glad it worked for you,even if it only was once.LOL ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
GOOD HUNTING Chad......
[ February 24, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 24, 2003, 06:51 PM:
Seventeen Remington’s, and calling with the wind to your back? Was you drunk man? At least Ed shoots a 22-250 at coyotes. LOL I think if I had to resort to calling down wind I would pack my BMG.
Being from NE I hunt in the wind every day. I have seen coyotes that have been literally strait down wind of me and not flinch but for every one of them I have seen a dozen or more turn inside out in an attempt to get out of Dodge. Some of them I can get to stop for a shot but for the most part they lay their ears down flat and try and set a new land speed record. Whether I am calling the brushy river bottoms, Sand Hills, river breaks, wheat stubble, wood lots or juniper canyons I call in a cross wind or with the wind to my face. If its too damn windy I stay home. In my country or any country I have ever called you can easily set up with the wind in your favor. I think that if you are constantly having problems with coyotes winding you then you are setting up all wrong.
Getting winded is a fact of life and it will happen to everybody but it can easily be controlled to an expectable level, daytime calling especially. Calling at night is much more difficult. For me it is anyway but I still like to set up with the wind in my favor “IF” at all possible.
I wish there were more guys like Ed out their promoting there down wind tactics. I would sure have a WHOLE lot more coyotes to shoot at. LOL
I got my blinders on but I am keeping one eye on the coyote.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 24, 2003, 07:57 PM:
The old wind topic again. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I don't know what's wrong or right, what I do know is what works for me. Having hunted in some very heavy competition for many years tought me the best ways to take LOTS of coyotes, bobcats and gray fox in a short amount of time. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Of course the terrain I'm hunting and the amount of animals in it has alot to do with how many I get. Fact is...this old predator hunter pays more attention down wind then up wind, because I know most coyotes are headed that way. Fact is...most never get all the way down wind, most die before they get there. Fact is...if they do get down wind they are getting a nose full of (rabbit and coyote) that I have sprayed in the air, shortly after that they get some lead I put in the air. Fact is...if I have a good hunt, I'll average over an animal a hr. So watching down wind works for me, the rest of you guys do what works best for you. Of course I have a few other tricks I ain't telling you all about and for good reason, ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good Hunting
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 24, 2003, 09:50 PM:
Apple Valley? I thought you moved to Idaho.
I never said that you shouldn’t watch down wind. What fool wouldn’t? The idea is keeping them from doing so like you said. The best way to do that is to set your stands up in a fashion to minimize the chance of a coyote getting behind you. I walk from stand to stand and make my stands (depending on terrain and weather) as close together as 500 yards. By doing that I create buffer zones. A lot of full days of hunting for me will only cover 6 sections. You may cover 600? I don’t know. It sounds like you guys blow into an area walk a 100 yards or so from the pickup and call and then go back to the pickup and move at least a mile away. Your system works off volume of both animals and land. I have far, far less of both so I can’t afford to operate in that manner on that kind of scale.
When you move into an area several miles from your previous stand you don’t know where the coyotes are going to come from. You have no control over it but if you move into an area that is 500 yards from your previous stand you know that the chances of a coyote getting behind you are at very least cut in half because you have just been their. We are comparing apples and oranges here. If I were in your country I would probably adopt your reasoning but as it stands I can control to a certain degree what gets behind me (down wind) or not so I will.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 25, 2003, 06:31 AM:
I am convinced that there is no right or wrong answer to this question IF YOU ARE NOT HURTING YOUR SUCCESS.
If coyotes have the habitat such as scattered junipers, mesquite, sage, or the habitat in the pictures above, coyotes will circle downwind of you, close to you, BECAUSE THE HABITAT ALLOWS THEM TO.
The habitat also allows them a sense of security.
No question areas with more people creates less concern.
As Rich said, I noticed too that the desert was crawling with people in some places.
Different air thermals will carry our scent differently. Different winds can scatter our scent or leave it in a cone. Night calling changes the game again as guys are relying on eyeshine.
Whether you are better off calling with or against the wind DEPENDS ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES YOU WILL BE CALLING IN.
For me to say that calling with the wind is wrong WAS WRONG.
For anyone to say that calling against the wind is wrong WAS WRONG.
It all depends on:
1. Habitat
2. Human Activity in the area
3. Air thermals
4. Wind
~SH~
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 25, 2003, 07:38 AM:
Oklahoma has a good variety of different lays of land. In my area , it is mostly private and the acreages are mostly broke up in 160acre tracts, Most of these have some cleared hay fields and wooded hills. There are lots of rolling hills and ditches and creeks, that break these up. We don't have a chance here if we don't have a good open view of the downwind side. I try to allow the coyote a creek or some brushy cover to come to the sound in, but make them cross in the open to get to me or to wind me. I have north and south wind stands that I use, when we get invited to hunt new ground or asked by a farmer to " come out and kill these things", we set up stands of course according to sign but also we set up two stands per area that we like, one north and one south. The other day we had received and were still getting a good snow, so my buddy and I decided to make a few stands. We have a wheat field that has a swamp in one corner and woods around on three sides. We walked in and sat in a brush pile that was close to the road, the wind was slightly in our face and we were just 75 yds from the road with the truck in sight so we didn't figure that the coyotes would expose themselves there. We were wrong three sets of fresh tracks reinforced our own rule, here at home never call to where you can't see downwind, and watch that way often.
later pup
[ February 25, 2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: pup ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 25, 2003, 07:51 AM:
pup: "I try to allow the coyote a creek or some brushy cover to come to the sound in, but make them cross in the open to get to me or to wind me."
Good advice!
~SH~
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 25, 2003, 08:48 AM:
Wiley E-
Thank you,
later pup
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 25, 2003, 11:51 AM:
Sat I called with Jim Adriance from the club. Jim hunts from a ladder and I want some film of coyotes reacting to it. First stand as the sun peeked up, Jim was on the ladder with his back to the sun calling straight into the wind (classic sun at your back, wind in your face) toward an area coyotes had approached from on previous stands. I set up with the camera on a rise abot 60 yards crosswind from him. Two coyotes ran in from behind Jim, hit his scent 100+ yards out spun and disappeared. Jim would never have known if I didn't have a clear view of downwind. Wiley hit on the thermals and convectives and the "undertow". Yesterday eve. Tyler and I went into a desert area within city limits to film a complete 15 minute stand start to finish, first howl to last howl, for some of the guys I correspond with who aren't sure how to incorporate howling with their calling. I set up cross wind with downwind to my right and Tyler set up with the camera 10 yards tomy left. Four minutes into the stand 2 coyotes came in directly in front of me. I had been misting from the beginning and the mist was moving different directions and sometimes swirling in front of me. The female stopped in the open 25 yards out when I started working with the enticing sounds the other continued toward downwind and I didn't see it again. Tyler had the camera pointed at it, I screwed around with it for 6 minutes according to the video. I sprayed another dose of mist toward the downwind coyote and the mist blew straight back in my face. This happens occasionally because the air currents are variable even though the clouds overhead are blowing in a steady and different direction. I'm not real popular at home when it happens.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 25, 2003, 03:14 PM:
Rich: "I sprayed another dose of mist toward the downwind coyote and the mist blew straight back in my face."
EEEEEEUUUUUUUUWWWWWWWWW! Yucky! LOL!
Did you let your wife kiss you when you got back home?
~SH~
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 25, 2003, 03:43 PM:
Q, I find an area where the animals are moving and make 10 to 15 min stands. In a hot area I only move a half mile sometimes less. When the action slows down I move out of the area and find another good spot, I hope. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Q, with all the coyotes you've dispatched over the years, forget the down wind thing I know you know better. you also know better then to use a .17 in a wind storm, duhh? Good Hunting to all you crazy predator hunters ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 25, 2003, 04:12 PM:
“you also know better then to use a .17 in a wind storm, duhh?” LMAO I don’t use them for coyotes on calm days. I don’t think you do either. I like to handle things swiftly. He he he. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 25, 2003, 06:30 PM:
Guys, guys, guys...
You are talking smak about my .17 again. Be careful or I'll have to come over there and straighten you out!
later
Randy
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 25, 2003, 07:52 PM:
LOL Randy I knew you would pop up sooner or later. I was wondering how much 17 bashing you could take. Not much I see. LOL No worries, it’s all in fun. Seriously though, wouldn’t the BC be better if you just threw the gun at them. LOL Depending on the angle if impact I think it would be fur friendly.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 25, 2003, 08:00 PM:
Slap em around Randy....or direct them to some interesting reading material that might free them of the binds of their ignorance:) It's difficult to separate the swift from the 250, in either drift or drop. Compared to the 17, this is the run down. A 10 mph crosswind will see the hot 22s drift accordingly using a 55 grain bullet: @100 yards= 1.0" @200= 4.0"@300= 10.0". whereas the 17 is @100= 1.2" @200= 5.2" @300= 12.7..WOW that lil pill sure blows around ehh? Where drop is concerned, the 17 beats the hot 22s. Sighted at 100 yards, the 17 drops 1.1" at 200 yards, and the 22s are around 2", at 300 yards the 17 drops 6.8", and the 22s drag behind at around 8". Much ado about nothing ehh Randy:)
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 25, 2003, 10:43 PM:
I'm sorry boys, but I love this kinda stuff. Some of you new dudes shoot a .17 and some of us old timers shoot 220 swifts and 22-250s. Ok I'll give you .17 fans a gift, if your within 150 yards you probably got a kill as long as you ain't got no wind...no bushes...and a small coyote....hehehe. Emmm...why is it that most professional predator hunters use 22-250s? or the old swift? No way in hell a .17 can out shoot one, thats why. Good Hunting, I love it, God Bless.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 25, 2003, 11:18 PM:
My bolestics program reads it like this.
All environmental parameters being equal.
My load is a 55gr NBT at 3900fps
Zeroed at 200 it drops 3.94 at 300 with 6.7 inches of wind drift at 10 mph. At 400 yards it drops 12.06 with a wind drift of 12.42 inches.
The 17 with a 25gr Hornady at 000say 3900fps??
Zeroed at 200 it drops 4.73 at 300 yards with a wind drift of 10.1inches. At 400 yards it drops 14.97 inches with a wind drift of 19.21 inches.
The moral of the story is we can make the numbers look any way we want too with the innumerable combinations of powders bullets, cartridges and even guns. I don't care about all of that. I just know that I have seen coyotes in person and on film take a hit on the shoulder and run off or take a second shot. That simply doesn't happen with my load. I seen a film that Dan Thompson was showing at a Nebraska convention where he or another guy put at least 6 rounds in a coyote before it died with a 17 rem. I know enough about 17s to realize that this was a horrible display of shooting so there is no need to go there.
Dan claims to have killed around 900 coyotes with the .17remington by the way. He probably wounded another couple of thousand though. LOL JUST KIDDING!! He has now graduated to a .223 also.
I have no problem admitting that my gun and load combination is heavy for coyotes. I reap the consequences in the fur shed with a bit of extra sewing. I am over gunned and you are under gunned? Who knows? That's what I think and will make no bones about it. All I know is that the .17 Rem and the .220 are cartridges that have never really gone anywhere. They are however cartridges that are not going away either. You can't argue with success so if you are having success with your .17 then more power to you. I'll stick with the swift.
In AZ I don't imagine that you shoot at many coyotes at ranges of 300 yards and over but I do. The load I shoot through my swift has nearly as many foot-pounds at 400 yards as the .17 does at the muzzle. That fact coupled with about a 3 inch flatter trajectory and a 6.79 inch advantage in wind the swift is the logical choice.
When I picked my rifle I wanted the fastest flattest shooting factory round I could get with out making a complete fur burger out of the coyote. The swift stood alone in this category. I don't shoot a ton of coyotes at 400 yards but I dang sure shoot enough to justify the extra punch that the swift delivers. This year (guessing) I shot 15 or 18 at 400 yards or over with my furthest at a lasered 602 yards. At 28 to 30 dollars a pop I can't afford to shoot a lesser gun.
Bad hits with bigger guns with better bullets will more often than not still end in a much quicker kill than a .17 will. A bad hit is a bad hit I know but I don't loose gut shot coyotes with my combination. I have seen several gut shot coyotes run off with the .17 Rem. Like I have said before "I am a prisoner of my own experiences."
I am sorry that it bothers you guys so much that others and myself think the .17 is a lousy coyote rifle but I have the numbers on my side. Ask Leonard in all the years of compitition hunting how many guys he knows that use the .17 for coyotes. Ask Danny and ask SH. Ask anyone that has ever placed at Rawlins. No one around here still uses one. I am not alone in my thinking here guys. Don't get mad at me I am just passing along some numbers and personal experiences.
Good hunting.
Q,
[ February 25, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Q-Wagoner ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 26, 2003, 05:26 AM:
Good post Q!
I don't have a problem with those who shoot .17s where most shots are close if they pick their shot and avoid the shoulder. They are certainly fur friendly.
As far as windage and elevation, I think it's more important to know how your gun shoots and what it is capable of then trying to compensate with a flatter shooting rifle.
Now don't take that the wrong way. I realize it's nice to have the advantage of windage, elevation, and energy in your favor but it's still more important to know where your gun shoots and what it is capable of. I have a close friend that has killed literally thousands of coyotes with a .222 because he knows how to shoot it and he knows it's limitations.
A .22 rimfire is the last caliber I would recommend for coyotes but I have killed many coyotes with a .22 rimfire by knowing how to shoot it and knowing it's limitations. That's all I had when I started out. I became quite proficient with it.
Bottom line, this coyote would have been dead with a heavier bullet in this situation and that's enough for me to take the advantage.
Hehehe!
~SH~
[ February 26, 2003, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 26, 2003, 07:32 AM:
Hey; Randy and I are not at odds with you all, I think someone else started this "lousy 17" thread , not Randy or I? Shoot whatever you want,or suits your situation. We are well aware of the contest hunting theory, every dog must fall, whether hit right or wrong. I will add though, if you believe that a gut shot coyote won't run off from a hot 22 hit in the paunch, you ain't shot as many as I thought you have. You are absolutely correct in claiming the 17 is not a long range proposition, I would never make that claim. The number of coyotes I shot the other side of 300 this year is maybe.....3 or 4? Thats a long way out there, my longest was 460, not lasered, but paced at 470 and deduct 10 for good measure.
The old brush busting theory, I thought everyone knew better than that nowdays? Bullets deflect off brush,sticks and twigs.....ALL bullets, no matter if its a 750 grain 50 bmg bullet or a diminutive 25 grain 17 cal bullet. I have a video somewhere around here showing different rifles shooting thru a screen made of brush and sticks, with an IPSC target set several feet behind. All bullets were deflected, causing either keyholing, or complete missing of the target, and that is bullets big and small. Im of the opinion that you shoot what you want and shoot well with. I happen to shoot the little stuff well, so thats what I like to use,period. What troubles me more than the caliber selection some of you choose, is the poor spelling you splatter on the monitor.....now THATS troubling:)
---------------
~AzHunter~
"Most coyotes act the same"
[ February 26, 2003, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 26, 2003, 08:13 AM:
DANNY'S BELIEVE IT OR NOT....The perfect predator hunting rifle was invented many years ago. I've seen it in person at a sporting goods store back in the 60's called Mel's in Ingelwood, California...The same place Patty Hurst and her friends once robbed. I'm sure they took this gun because nobody has ever seen it again after that. It was the only one in exsistence and they called it a booming, banging, womping, stomping, butt-kicking, excruciatingly hurting 22-460 mag. Ten shots and it needed a new barrel and a new shooter. It had 15,000 lbs of muzzle energy and left the barrel at 9,000 fps. It could kill anything from a coyote to a cape buffalo and never leave any blood. It would make any other rifle look like a BB gun. Now I know most of you guys don't believe this story, but if you ever run across some old timmers from the CVCA south bay chapter, just ask em.
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 26, 2003, 08:47 AM:
I am a firm believer in the "shoot whatever you like" field of thought. I hold no ill will toward anyone who wants to shoot them with a 25-06 or a 22mag. Everyone needs to make up their own minds.
But, I keep reading about how under-powered this round is. I look at my rifle and shake my head. I kill most of my coyotes in North Dakota where the shots can get real long. 200 yards is close. 300 yards is common and sometimes we stretch those ranges an additional 100 yards. And STILL my .17 keeps killing. I guess my rifle is just magic.
Have I screwed up with my .17? You bet! AZhunter can vouch for that. I called in a coyote down there and took him in the shoulder. Yup, he got up and ran. So did I. I may be fat and smoke too many cigars but I finally closed the distance and finished him off. On the other hand, I've seen similar things happen when a bad hit was made with a larger caliber. So be it.
I realize most of this is all in good fun and I'm right there with you on that.
Onecoyote said, "why is it that most professional predator hunters use 22-250s? or the old swift?" I always just figured that it was because they didn't know any better and were too damned stubborn to learn.
Randy
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 26, 2003, 10:07 AM:
Wiley E said: "Bottom line, this coyote would have been dead with a heavier bullet in this situation and that's enough for me to take the advantage."
Well said Wiley. That is why I even left the "big" .22-.250 behind and went to the .25-06. I was losing too many long range cripples. As you know, I now shoot a .257 Ackley which I built on a Mauser action. Coyotes can take a lot of killing sometimes.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 26, 2003, 01:13 PM:
You are right AZ.; I probably ain't shot as many as many coyotes in the paunch as you thought I have. Some of the ones I have though spin around a few times and lay down. Then I shoot them again. Others run a short ways and then get real, real sick in a hurry and then lay down. If they are not dead I shoot them again. I don’t try and make a habit of gut shooting coyotes but it happens. A 55gr BT will open up way more wound channels in a coyote than a .17Rem and has a solid copper boat tail that usually just keeps on going. I have shot coyotes quartering away in the flank and found the boat tale under the skin on the off side shoulder, or slightly behind it rather.
No matter how you slice it you have a wider margin of error with the .220 with my load both ballistic wise and terminally. That’s what I am after and I share the same philosophy as the competition hunters do. Every coyote must fall where it stands. There is no substitute for good shooting. The best shooter in the world is going to gut shoot coyotes now and again and if he doesn’t he isn’t shooting at them as much as he should.
Eliminating the variables is the name of the game for me. Bullet drop, wind, and terminal ballistics and what ever else are all the things I factor in for a coyote rifle. Missing the shoulder is not something I want to worry about on a stand and neater is a hit that may be a little far back. That’s just the way I look at it.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by ChrisM (Member # 135) on February 26, 2003, 04:30 PM:
As far as windage and elevation, I think it's more important to know how your gun shoots and what it is capable of then trying to compensate with a flatter shooting rifle.
I think you're smoking crack!
Where is it written that ya can't have BOTH? A "super screamer" AND the knowledge of where it shoots and what its capable of.
I have a close friend that has killed literally thousands of coyotes with a .222 because he knows how to shoot it and he knows it's limitations.
"limitations" being the key word here!
I'm reminded of an infamous quote..."its not how many ya catch, its how many ya miss!" Though it was directed towards trapping, a modified version of it applies here.
I have killed many coyotes with a .22 rimfire by knowing how to shoot it and knowing it's limitations. That's all I had when I started out. I became quite proficient with it.
Why didn't you stay with it?
I wouldn't count on a .224 bullet penetrating buckbrush either.
See ya tomorrow! lol
[ February 27, 2003, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: ChrisM ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 26, 2003, 04:48 PM:
I love this stuff!
Poor misguided souls. Oh; I meant us, not y'all.
V, I saw that brushbucking video before. 50BMG, everything was deflected except the 12 gauge slugs.
However. We aren't talking about that kind of sticks and twigs. And another thing, if you put a coyote behind a whispy creasote, chances are he's going down with a Swift. Depends on how far behind the bush he is standing, but it don't take much of a twig to deflect a .17, maybe a blade of grass? I will shoot through creasote when I have to, I don't have the data, but I "think" a seventeen would be less likely?
Realistically, a 17 Remington is not a 300 yard gun, and I see a fair amount of 300 yard opportunities. Why would I limit myself?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 26, 2003, 07:37 PM:
Leonard,
I thought you had experience with a .17rem? You say that a .17rem isn't a 300 yard gun. Come on... Why do they just keep on tipping over dead for me at that range?
Randy
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2003, 03:03 AM:
Baiting me, huh? ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
I say it isn't a 300 yard gun because of my attitude about retrieving an animal where he falls; especially at night. I don't have time to track a runner in the dark.
Yes, I have enough experience with that caliber to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it's usefulnes is well inside of 300. It actually makes me wonder if the laws of probability have caught up with you, yet? Rather than numbers, and personal recollections, the logic should be enough to prevent very much protest.
Just because Wiley shot a certain amount of coyotes with a rimfire, we have some folks that will maintain that it is adequate for the purpose. Taking it a step further, "they" once did it at an estimated 75 yards, which may have been overstated by at least twenty-five yards? From that point forward, we have people that will put up a fair size argument that a 22lr is perfectly adequate for coyotes. The reliability factor is out the window, over the long haul, but the proponent is blind to facts and logic.
Once you see the amazing effectiveness of a seventeen, at average distances, there is a tendancy to have supreme confidence, and you therefore, take an occasional shot at a stationary animal that's way out there. And, you get lucky. So you make statements that coyotes keep falling over for you at 300 yards with your seventeen. Over the long haul, you are backing a loser, my friend; and you know it.
A 17 Remington may be useful for some people, inside of 200, under the right conditions, as long as it isn't important that you recover the animal. You can post the numbers; drop, wind drift, etc, but it never will have the necessary terminal performance for those of us that want guarantees. You can't convince a skeptic with anecdotal evidence.
I think you may be slightly exaggerating the number of times you have cleanly dropped a coyote at three hundred yards and beyond? If there are that many, you are carying the wrong gun? I may be exaggerating the amount of cripples I have seen fuss around when shot beyond 150, I will grant you that.
However, I have absolutely no (zero) interest in losing a single shootable animal, and I have a number of opportunities at, and beyond three hundred yards. I will give you the foxes, but you have selected a number that defies logic, if coyote is the game.
Proving your case is a non-starter; no responsible hunter would attempt to shoot one hundred coyotes at 300 yards to prove reliability. Hypothetically, two failures beyond two hundred is enough to convince me that it is a bad bet. I can't afford to continue the experiment.
Whatever floats your boat, but the only one you will convince is yourself.
Good hunting. LB (Mr bang/flop)
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 27, 2003, 04:50 AM:
Leonard,
Trust me. I know you well enough over the years to know I would never change your mind on this topic. Actually it's not your or Q or anyone else that slams the .17 that I write these responses to.
I'll give you your point on night hunting coyotes. Well taken. I'd want them laying dead in their tracks after the shot as well. I might even move up to a .223
But, your post was full of doubt. Don't doubt what I tell you is true.
Let me clarify a bit. First off, no, most of my 300 yard coyotes don't tip over dead in their tracks. Most of them run a ways before expiring. No big deal. They are still as dead. Keep in mind that I'm hunting in North Dakota where it's OPEN. And, there is usually snow on the ground. If I make a hit, I can find that coyote. Just the way it is.
Two points to rebutt from your post. First is that I may be exaggerating the number of times I've cleanly dropped a coyote at three hundred yards and beyond. Leonard, I never said how many this has happened to me. But, if I can hit 'em out there, I can collect them out there.
Secondly, you kind of leaned toward the idea that my range estimation might be off just a tad. I wear a range finder around my neck on every stand. I range the area before I sit downto call so I know how far off those critters are so I can kill 'em dead with my .17rem!
Have a good one guys.
Randy
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 27, 2003, 08:21 AM:
Randy, you brought up a good point about open land and snow. No dought it is much easer to track a wounded animal in the snow and if there is a lack of rocks or brush that should make it real easy. Most places I hunt the terrain is not like that and I have to make sure that critter don't move or I'll probably never find him. Most times I shoot, said critter is dead when the old swift barks. Taking coyotes at long range with any rifle is not a good idea in my mind. I would have to say anything over 300 yeards you're taking a chance. Plus the fact if you're doing it at night it's Real hard to find the animal even if your spotter (lighter) has his eyes right on the spot as it went down. The reason I like the swift is it's an almost sure killer out to that 300 yard mark but only if you put the bullet where it belongs. On the other hand, I personally would not trust a .17 at that range, I'm sure it is a killer but why chase an animal if you don't have to? Randy this should make you feel better. I knew a guy that used a .17 back in the late 70's, He was a cat hunter and told me it was the best cal. he ever owned. He also placed on a few of our state hunts using that .17. To place high on those hunts you had to get most everthing you shot at, Good Hunting
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2003, 09:12 AM:
Randy, my apoligies if you had the impression that I believed you couldn't accurately measure 300 yards.
With your explanations, I can see that you must use what you have in your hand, and know what to expect, and don't mind the amount of effort invested in recovery. If that's what I had, out on the open plains, I'd try it with reasonable expectations. But, I wouldn't make a career out of that practice.
As an occasional long range solution, or forget about it; I understand. Perhaps I misunderstood your message as a license to shoot coyotes with an adequate three hundred yard caliber? For the average joe.
We used a seventeen during the fur boom, at night, when we were able to switch off to another gun to handle the longer shots. We didn't expect more than the 17 could deliever, and we still had what I consider to be, more fussing around distractions, than I like to see. For what we were doing, we used two calibers for the short stuff. A 218 Bee and a 17 MK4. I saw not a lot of difference, as a fur gun...and with a more potent backup.
Danny, who's the cat hunter? It has always been my understanding that nobody I knew that has hunted CSVCA contests , habitually did so with a seventeen? Apparently I'm mistaken? Yes, I know, you said cats, which is a different animal than coyote, but still, I'm surprised!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 27, 2003, 09:26 AM:
I think that 300 yards is a very long shot on coyote size critters. This is especially true for guys like me who don't usually carry a bi-pod or any other artificial rest when calling. If I sit with my back against a tree or a rock and can get my left knee up to rest my elbow on, any coyote within 200 yards that stands still long enough for me to dop the hammer has just committed suicide. When I am talking long range coyotes I am talking 200 yards or beyond. It is very windy in some places that I call, and sometimes several coyotes come in at same time. I had to learn to shoot coyotes on the run too. A .17 Rem just is not my idea of a serious coyote rifle. Fox yes, coyote no. I consider the .223 Rem to be minimum sized coyote whacker. The .22-.250 and .220 Swift are better, and the .257 Ackley or .25-06 is really hard to beat. I know one serious coyote man around here who shoots a .25-06 Ackley improved. He is the only guy I know who has a better coyote whacker than I do. Use what you want on those coyotes fellows, but me thinks that the day will come when your eyes are opened a wee bit if you use needle guns for your coyote whacking. Time will tell.
[ February 27, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2003, 10:26 AM:
It's good to point out that three hundred yard coyote shooting requires a steady rest.
Rich, I'm firmly in your camp. Serious coyote medicine is available in twenty-five caliber. More often than not, you get extreme shock value and an exit and not as much damage as the average 22-250 bullet.
The choices are endless, folks. If you want to use a gun that is marginal beyond a certain distance, that's your choice to make. But you can't get away with telling the rest of us there are no limits.
We have Danny telling us that 300 yards is a long and difficult shot with a 220 Swift. Is he afraid to take it? I don't think so? I know Danny, and I have personally seen the fruits of his labor; on the ground. He can kill more animals in a weekend than some people can manage in a season. I bet he knows that cripples are a part of the game, and what needs to be done to minimize them? Maybe he doesn't earn his living by hunting coyotes, but he's as close to a professional in every aspect you are likely to find. I wonder if he would set out on a CSVCA contest, armed with a 17 Remington?
Step up to the plate, Mr Batistini.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 27, 2003, 11:00 AM:
I want to make sure my position is understood. I do not make any specific claims the the 17 is the end all for predator hunting. I use it, along with other 17s, and several 22s. It matters not to me what anyone else chooses to use, Im not in that game. What I was originally responding to was the wide spread misconception about the 17 rems wind drift and drop, or should I say lack of it. Using realistic velocity calculations in the 22-250/220 swift class of 22, and correspondingly accurate numbers for the 25 grain 17, the drop is less, and the drift is hanging right with them, surely not enough difference to make a coyote hunter worry about a miss in a wind. That was my point, I really don't wring my hands over what caliber you choose to shoot, just don't mischaracterize the truth about the 17s ballistics.
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 27, 2003, 11:31 AM:
I bought and have been using the 25-06, for a few years. I have a Ruger MKII. When I bought it the hides were not worth anything, so dead was dead. Now that the hides have went up considerably, I am in search of a little less mess. To those of you using the 25-06, what pellet and load are you using to minimize pelt damage. I am using 85gr. ballistic tips, which I know is not the one, unless you can get every coyote to face you for the chest shot. I hate not to use the gun, as it does put one down.
thanks for the help
later pup
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 27, 2003, 12:00 PM:
Leonard, You're too nice to me, thank you for the nice words. I wasn't that good or I would have won lots of state hunts. Like I said, 300 yards is a long way...900 feet...3 football fields. Geez... I can't even run that far. Yes, I would shoot em that far away on club hunts back when...but I'd think about it nowadays and ESPECIALLY at NIGHT. I know you know what I mean when I say, the lighter better have his eyes right on the spot and never move or the animal could be lost. A 300 yard shot for any of us is not out of the question. Most of us can do it but like was said before, without the RIGHT REST for your rifle, you're taking a big chance. I would not suggest anything over 300 yards to a new guy. Plus, who wants to walk that far for a scroungy old coyote? Leonard, when I hunted in Mexico, I used a 270 and Granville used a 243. We had no intention of anything getting away and not much did. What I'm trying to say here is that I have not always used smaller calibers to take coyotes. (I know what it's like to use cannons on em.) The guy that shot a .17 in the club was named Dick Docheff, he quit back in the late 70's maybe early 80's. Do you recall his name? I think he was a member of the El Monte Chapter? Az-Hunter, my wife and I were down in Portal Arizona close to Rodeo New Mexico about a month ago. The place was never there 15 years ago but it is now? sure does look like some good hunting around there, do you know the place? Good Hunting.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 27, 2003, 12:27 PM:
Pup,
I know first hand what you mean about those dang 85 grain Nosler ballistic tips!! Whoooeeee!! I tried some of those down in texas one fall. Football sized holes were the norm. My own favorite coyote load for the .25-06 is a 90 grain Sierra bthp "Gameking" in front of 56 grains of IMR-4831. Federal's "match" primers ignite the buggers quite nicely. A coyote punched through the ribs usually sports a silver dollar size exit, while coyote facing head on usually holds the whole works inside him. (no exit). Hit a shoulder bone, or not lead a coyote far enough and smack the rear hip bone well----not good news. Take a look at my original website. There is a coyote among those three in the photo that I whacked in the hip. The hole is downright ugly. Ugly man, UGLY.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2003, 12:42 PM:
You're right, Danny. I know Dick, in fact he was in the Covina Chapter when I transfered for a few years. Lives with his mom, across the street from La Puente High School. He used to have some nice trucks that seemed to never get dirty. What's up with that? When he sold his Landcruiser, he bragged about how much he got for it. I made the snotty observation that it may have been because it had never been off the pavement? I also know the gun, he gave me a cartridge for my collection when they weren't all that common, a Javalina. Made in Arizona, but I can't recall by who?
AZ no offense, I know what you were trying to get across, and you made the point. Besides, I think the wind considerations become more important much further out. My main reservation is, and has always been remaining energy levels at extended range.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 27, 2003, 04:08 PM:
Leonard, the 17 Javelina was developed by Bill Atkinson and Paul Marquhart in Prescott. It's a shortened, blown out 222Rem.
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on February 27, 2003, 04:09 PM:
Man I'm gone for a few days and all hell breaks loose.
I do want to through in my 2 bits. Leonard is right about the 17 not having enough poop beyond the 300 yard mark, I would add that I think its not the smartest of habbits to get into. Sooner or later you are going to fringe one and it will get away. Again I agree with Leonard that knowing your persenal limmitations along with the guns limmitations is a major thing to think about. I have shot hundreds of coyote's With 17's from the new 17HMR to my old standby the 17rem but with time I found that every year I lost a few to bad shots,some to the wind and some to deflection so when the 20's came along I was ready to try them.
I have found the caliber that does what I require of a coyote gun. I do get out the 17rem and hunt with it, now and then but its NOT the ultimate coyote gun nor should anyone say it is. I shot 20 coyotes and 12 badger with a 17HMR to prove a point and to fill the void when my 20 was down. That don't make it a coyote gun, hell you could kill a coyote with a .177cal pellet gun if you hit it in the right spot. I feel that the 17rem is a capable coyote gun inside its effective range of 250 yards, outside of that you are taking chances everytime you take a shot. Just like the 17HMR is capable inside its effective range of 60 yards.
What we are talking about here is 300 yards at a 5 1/2 inch target and the lack of terminal velosity. That is a bad combination when your talking about taking that kind of shot on a regular basis. The odds just aren't in your favor nor the coyotes. After all don't we have a responcibility to the Coyotes we persue. I think we do. thats my 2 bits on the matter.
Smote the Yote within your limmits
Slydog
[ February 27, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: 20t-n-t ]
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 27, 2003, 05:44 PM:
Ok.
I was wrong. Anyone want to buy a worthless .17 rem?
Randy
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2003, 06:04 PM:
Oh come on, Randy. You give up too easy. Az said, not very long ago, and on the old Board that this was a tough house to promote seventeen caliber! I wish it wasn't so, but it's the limitations where we differ, and you are welcome to your opinion, which I respect.
In the hands of a seasoned veteran, such as yourself, you can make it perform better than the average guy. But it can get out of hand when people skim through the "conditions" and read "300 yard coyote gun." I feel an obligation to qualify these general recommendations for the folks out there that don't have direct experience.
Good hunting. LB
By the way, if that is a Model 7 you have, the demand has sent the price way up; you may turn a profit on the sale!
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 27, 2003, 06:56 PM:
Leonard,
I'm going to tell you something and if you say I said it, I'll have to hunt you down.
I actually agree with most of what you guys have said... with a few qualifiers.
I come on here when I see the .17 getting bad-mouthed. I personally don't give a rat's behind if anyone in the world shoots one other than me. The only thing that goes against my grain is that it gets such a bad rap that it might scare people off when it shouldn't.
Trying to decide which caliber is the "BEST" one is like saying "my dad can beat up your dad" while out on the playground.
For me, the "best" caliber is the .17 rem. I shoot more foxes than I do coyotes. Of course this discussion is just based on coyotes. It's still the best because I can't stand to see those critters blown into red chunks. I am able to kill the vast majority of coyotes I shoot at. I kill more than most of the people I hunt wtih both because I can hit them and because I can hit them well.
I don't buy that old song and dance about "sooner or later you'll fringe one and then you'll loose one." To that I say *DUH* Anyone who hunts coyotes will fringe one and loose one from time to time. NO MATTER WHAT CALIBER! Did I tell you about the coyote a friend shot in the hind leg and we tracked it for over two miles before we realized we'd never catch up to it? It was hit with a .243.
Or, did you hear the one about the fringe shot another partner did with a .223 that went a full mile before I shot him dead with my .17rem on the run at 225 yards?
On the other side of the coin I can tell you stories after story about how that .17 rem performs at long ranges. My brother in law shot a coyote on the run with his .17 rem. It was at 487 yards. It ran twenty yards and died. How about the coyote in Oklahoma the first year I had my .17 that hung up on a rock ledge over 375 yards out. He was facing me. I raised the scope up over his head, touched the trigger and watched him fall. The bullet caught him in the neck and he never twitched. Or the one in South Dakota we snuck up on, ranged at 427 yards and took a shot at him curled in his bed. I ended up hitting a foot and he jumped up, took to spinning and my second shot took him between the ribs and he dropped within seconds.
Yes, those shots were the extremes. But, they worked and worked well.
Now, before I hear about this being anecdotal evidence, I realize that it is. But, I haven't done any scientific studies so can't comment on any more than the evidence I have at hand.
The .17 is all the coyote rifle I need. Of course maybe mine really is magic.
(Leonard, I really don't give up all that easily. )
Randy
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on February 27, 2003, 07:49 PM:
Randy, Leonard, I thought you both know that I love the 17's and for a few select shooters I think they are the best fur friendly caliber on the market. I do NOT think they are for everyone. I think that new shooters need to stick with .22 caliber stuff. Shot placement with the 17 is critical, there is no room for error and many new shooters don't have that disiplin and some shooters never obtain that ability, ever. I will say that now that I'm shooting the 20 I haven't lost a coyote, haven't had any spinners and only one runner.
Randy, I don't shoot 5 or 6 coyotes a season. I'm at 133 now and still huntin, 20 of them were with the 17HMR. I hunt hard and have for many years. What I write here on this BB is just my view, that don't make it carved in stone and your view is just as valid with your ability, what I'm saying is not everyone has your ability. Is that fair, sir?
Slydog
[ February 27, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: 20t-n-t ]
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 27, 2003, 09:17 PM:
Wow!! One hundred and thirty three coyotes!! That would make a tremendous picture wouldn’t it? When you get done for the season take a picture of them for us would you. I would like to see that many in a row. BTW What’s the name of your fur buyer?
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on February 28, 2003, 06:45 AM:
Q, this is a test, ok I see how it is and thats fine. Because of the weather here this year 1 or 2 out of 10 are worth the work to put up, but I am at 41 # 1's and 17 #2's the rest I have only taken r/front foot for bounty from ranchers.
In the old days I sold to John C. Isenheart in Greely Colorado but after his passing I started selling to Mosco Hide and fur in Mosco Idaho, You want the phone number??? Remember that I hunt year round on most of the ranches so thats a tally from June to June.
Hope this clears up your questions Q,.
Slydog
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 28, 2003, 07:41 AM:
Thanks Rich for the load, I will give it a try.
later pup
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 28, 2003, 09:54 AM:
pup,
Your rifle may be different but my whippety barreled model 98 Mauser sure does like that load. I remember shooting one five shot group from 100 yards that I could cover with a nickle. That probably don't mean much to the GOOD riflemen around here, but it was dang good group for ME.
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 28, 2003, 10:06 AM:
20t-n-t, You may not miss much, but someone in Idaho does. I mean every time I saw a coyote and most were 400 yards plus.....they took one look and ran the other way(like the devil was biting them on the butt). ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
This was in the Camas Prairie area. I really believe those old farmers shoot at anything that even gets close to looking like a coyote(I'm sure they miss alot) . By the way, 133 coyotes ain't bad for a guy hunting places that have so few coyotes in it. Maybe you're the reason there aren't any coyotes left in northern Nevada? 20t-n-t, you know I'm just joking with ya now, Good Hunting.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 28, 2003, 11:25 AM:
Az hunter,
Your point on windage and elevation exaggerations concerning the .17 is taken!
Based on previous experiences in this same situation, I believe I would have been able to punch through the same brush NEXT TO THE COYOTE'S CHEST with my .22/250 that deflected the .17 bullet for my friend.
Either way, it's irrelevant because both you and I probably would have waited for a clear shot.
Randy Buker,
Your point on foxes is certainly taken!
The .17 Remington is an excellent fox caliber as is the .222.
Yes there will be crippling with any rifle. The point is that, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, there will be more with .17s than the .22 cals. Many times all you have is a facing shot and the .22s simply have less chance of a shoulder deflection.
Others,
I don't know any serious competition shooters or ADC men that shoot less than a .22 caliber for those reasons.
A perfect "COMMON" coyote caliber for the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE of situations?
I would say the .220 swift and .22/250 would come the closest.
Wiley (previous): "As far as windage and elevation, I think it's more important to know how your gun shoots and what it is capable of then trying to compensate with a flatter shooting rifle."
Chris M. (response): "Where is it written that ya can't have BOTH? A "super screamer" AND the knowledge of where it shoots and what its capable of."
Nobody said it was a choice. The combination of a "fur friendly" "super screamer" and the knowledge of how it shoots would be the perfect combination but you already knew that.
My point on "the duece" is that you can be very profficient in killing coyotes with a .222 or a .17 if you know how to shoot and you know it's limitations.
THAT IS NOT TO SUGGEST THAT THERE ISN'T BETTER ALL AROUND COYOTE CALIBERS but you already knew that.
Wiley E (previous): "I have killed many coyotes with a .22 rimfire by knowing how to shoot it and knowing it's limitations. That's all I had when I started out. I became quite proficient with it."
Chris M. (response): "Why didn't you stay with it?
DUH!
I certainly never meant to suggest that the .22 rimfire is even close to being a "recommended" coyote caliber. I still grab my Ruger 10/.22 to kill coyotes periodically when I feel a need for a lesson in self discipline but you already knew that too.
~SH~
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 28, 2003, 12:07 PM:
How about an RWS .17 cal pellet rifle at 1000 fps? The ammo would be cheap.
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 01, 2003, 12:23 AM:
Onecoyote,
You are right about coyote hunting here in Idaho, Most hunters shoot at them on sight, same with ranchers and farmers. Around the 1st of Feb. when its real cold and all the pups are dead or college smart is when things get better for me here. By that time of year I'm mostly hunting private lands that only I hunt[1] and most of it I know like the back of my hand and have certain places that I call from that produce over and over[2]Also remember that I'm retired and have a lot of time to hunt durring the week, that helps.{3] Another good point is that I don't think that there is more than a hand full of top hands in the state to compete with. Sure there are the "coyote hunters" but after the pups are gone they are to.[4]every year it seems, the hunting gets harder in my areas and I see more and more weekend "coyote hunters" from other states and other parts of this state hunting in areas that for many years I had to myself.[5] Then there is this computer thing that I have steped into, where if your ideas are diffrent than that of the general population you become an outcast and then come the tests to see if you are what you say you are.[6] then there are those who twist your words around and squese meanings outof them that were never implied [7] then there is the guy like me who has hunting knowlage but not the experiance on this cyber space and therefore am subject to question reguardless of my hunting abilitys.
I have met some "real" good guys in here and enjoy talking to them but it seems that it is a one way street and I feel that I'm going the wrong way, so I'm going to let you all think and say what you will without my interfearance. I've never been good at this computer thing and thanks for puttin up with me.
I bid you all good day
Slydog
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 01, 2003, 02:09 AM:
Sly, Slydog, 20t-n-t, slydog2020 stop feeling sorry for your self for one minute and listen. Better yet stop looking from the inside out and take a peak from the outside. I have seen you as of lately posting on several different forms and in every case your “word” seams to always get called into question. You then of course read off your pedigree like a page from a book and then are insulted that any one would ever doubt you. You?? Slydog?? Well how dare they!!!! Well Sly that is all you are to them to me and everyone else. You are just a handle that is tooting his own horn. They don’t know you from Adam and either do the rest of us. I will grant you that you are very knowledgeable on a variety of topics but don’t get offended or cry “poor me” if someone calls you on something. If it was your best friend you should be offended. Here in cyber space you can only babble on for so long before someone starts pulling your strings. Computer land is cruel and unforgiving places so get use to it. Now it is easy. It was much worse in the early days.
When you make claims of killing 20 out of 20 of the coyotes that you “hit” with your HMR with out a loss don’t fall off your chair if some one thinks you are full of $hit. When you state that you kill hundreds of this and hundreds of that with out a shred of evidence don’t be surprised either. I called you on your 133 coyotes for the season because that is a tall order to fill in any part of the country for a season. Then again most hunters that I know hunt from Nov through mid Feb so I figured that this was no exception.
I didn’t “remember” that you hunted coyote’s year around because I wasn’t aware that you did it in the first place. Also how was I too have known that June was the magic month on your calendar when you started tallying up your kills? I’ll bet your numbers sky rocketed when you were shooting 3 and 4 month old puppies in July and August. LOL
Idaho must be way different than Nebraska because here weather has a very marginal if any affect on fur quality. Snow may brighten them up a bit but my percentages “heavy” and “semi-heavy” have been unchanged sense I started. Most coyotes go to the trim triad so they want sq inches and clear bellies.
FYI I don’t want your fur buyers phone number because I don’t particularly care how many coyotes you have sold him nor could I because I don’t even know your name. I could give you the names and numbers of several of my fur buyers (reputable ones as well) and they would tell you with out blinking that I shoot 500 coyotes a season or even 1000 if I told them too. LOL
Nobody is picking on you Sly. You are just a new guy. That’s just the way things go. Wiley E is an old hand at this computer thing and he is an “equal opportunity” ball buster. It don’t make a $hit to him how long you have been around. We are always busting each other’s chops about one thing or another. The key is not to take it personal. Put up or shut up. We have all been in the ring with one another and are for the most part friends or at least cyber friends anyway. Computers are impersonal and people don’t or can’t come across like would if they were in person. Who ever thought computers were a good way to communicate must have had rocks in their head? LOL
I am not to good on these things either. I belong on the butt end of a rifle not the butt end of a computer that’s for sure.
If you are as legit as you say you are and you keep stringing your words together in a manner that makes sense you will get along just fine. No one said it would be a easy ride.
Good hunting.
Q,
[ March 01, 2003, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: Q-Wagoner ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 01, 2003, 06:32 AM:
Q Wagoner,
I know that we talked about this once, but I just can't help myself sometimes. If I hide my truck well and walk backwards to my calling stand, will the coyotes be fooled into thinking that I just left? This trick may be just the checker for those coyote that circle downwind and catch human scent in the air. Coyote might think "Oh I smell human odor but what the heck, the hunter just left a little bit ago"-----------
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 01, 2003, 08:42 AM:
For what it's worth, sly.
I think you're legit. Nobody can know, for sure but for me, it's a casual mental scorecard. Unless I read things that don't add up, I take these experiences that we all read about, at face value. For myself, I don't have the time or the inclination to impress people I don't know with fabricated stories. And, I assume that other people feel the same way?
As far as anyone innocently asking a follow up question, personally, I didn't get the feeling that it was to cast doubt on your statements. You know, there are things that cannot be proved, so you have to shrug it off and have the attitude that they can believe it or not, you don't care one way or the other. Certain supporting information can make all the difference, even if it isn't a direct response. I either can't or won't back up some of the things I say, if I'm not believed, I don't really care.
But, at some point, it all adds up. I could go down a list of members and rate them based on what they have offered, in sum total. Detailed or brief, it has the same value. They either know what they are talking about or they have a few gaps in their experience. But, I think I can pick out the truth when I read it.
I don't know everything, never claimed that I did. I learn from these boards all the time. And, I contribute. What more can we expect? It's not about the most highly qualified guy on the block, it's about the free exchange of ideas. There are people that never post but read every word. Hard for me to believe, but it's true, I hear from them. I think it's enough that we offer our experience and thereby increase the fund of knowledge available free of charge. I don't guarantee any of it, it's up to the reader to separate the bs from fact.
You already know what it's like to jump into a hornet's nest. (CG)lol This is a tough crowd also, but it's because we have a vast store of knowledge, collectively. I think you fit in, and can hold your own.
Don't be so sensitive, you are a good member and I value your input.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 01, 2003, 01:54 PM:
Gentelmen, I'will try to make this short as it seems that I tend to string words out a little.
[1] Thanks Leonard, your opinyon matters greatly to me,{call it mutual respect}. It has been a hell of a week for me and I guess I should follow my own advise and not wheir my feelings on my shoes. LOL By the way its worth a plenty.
Everything that could go wrong seems to have done just that. However I will get over it.
[2] Q, for some reason you realy know how to push my buttons. Thats ok, but know this, I may be new to the computer but just because YOU don't know me don't mean that I'm not known. As for your comment about horn tootin, that was rich. Your comment about shootin pups, was a low blow and not called for, It was also miles from the truth.
[Q,] Also how was I too have known that June was the magic month on your calendar when you started tallying up your kills?
Well Q, before you started the stoning,try asking a few questions.
[Q,] Idaho must be way different than Nebraska because here weather has a very marginal if any affect on fur quality.
Evadently you have never hunted in Idaho, I however have lived,trapped and hunted coyotes in the sandhills of Nebraska. Yes reigon and weather do play a role in fur quality.
Q, I would like to set things straight, I do not have to lie to make friends nor do I have to get back up to lie for me and by the way, a photo of some fur hanging on a shed is not proof positive that anyone put that much fur up either. Even before your photo posting I had no dout about your abilitys nor your numbers, You through the first rock.
Before you start busting my balls, take the time to get to know me and let me come to know you, then we both will be able to have,equal oppertunity, as you call it, ball busting is not my best atribute and I take no plesure in it. I try to be fair with everyone and thats what I expect in return. Everyone has bad days, I've had a bad 10 days, you don't have to add to it.
Tell you what, lets start over. you can call me or I can call you but this crap has to stop. My name is Richard Gipson, most folks just call me Dic. This is my phone no. [208]841-5554 call me or get your no. to me and Ill call you on my dime, don't matter to me but we need to talk. I think that is fair, don't you?
I also added two more coyotes to the tally today and one was rubbed already. things are a change'in and I'm not ready for spring yet.
Good day all
Slydog
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 01, 2003, 03:27 PM:
Hey 20t-n-t, I like ya man, Relax dude. Don't take things to hard in this fourm, we are all one big family here trying to figer out who the best is hehehe. That is one thing all us guys have in common, it's called a EGO and hardcore predator hunters are the worst of all when it comes to egos. I seen it for to many years when I was in compitition, a guy wouldn't tell you he is better, he had to go out and get more animals then you to prove it. After that...all the guy did was smile. 20t-n-t, all the old pros in this room have payed there dues and I'm sure you have too. Now if you want to hear some animal numbers, just ask me.... there is no dought in my mind I can out do all these guys. I know places and so does Leonard where a guy could take 100 or more coyotes in a week of hunting. If the price is right, I'll tell hehehe. 20t-n-t Good Hunting Buddy.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 01, 2003, 03:35 PM:
Boy, you sure learned to tell some tall tales since you've been gone!
Worst thing that could happen on a week long hunt is running out of ammo. Yikes!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 01, 2003, 05:34 PM:
Rich, (DUH) I thought everyone knew that you were supposed to walk backwards towards your stand. Ill bet the hard-core hunters like 20t-N-T even CRAWL backwards. LOL Just kidding Dic. Don’t get all emotional on me.
20t-n-t; I don’t really care how many tens of thousands of coyotes you have killed in your 30+ years of calling. And I am not interested in getting into a pi$$ing mach with you about who can prove what. The picture I posted was not an attempt to prove anything to you. The post wasn’t for you or directed at you so don’t flatter yourself. A picture of coyotes doesn’t “PROVE” anything nor do all of my fur receipts that I have kept over the years but it will go further than what most have to offer. What more can a guy give short of video footage of every coyote taken?
You are right. You don’t have to lie to make friends (or patronize them either) nor do you need “back up” to lie for you. You can always lie your way out of a lie but you can’t lie your way out of the truth. Not assuming that you are lying about anything. You could actually be modest about your prows. Who knows?
I really don’t think that we need to talk. You shouldn’t care one bit about what I say or think about you. You have plenty of friends here. I am not your enemy. I am not anyone’s enemy that I know of. I just questioned you. That’s all. If you don’t like it then don’t set yourself up to be questioned or expect your good word to carry you through.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if we were neighbors we would be the best of friends. With our shared love of firearms and hunting we couldn’t help not to be. I have no animosities towards you at all and I am sorry that I push you buttons. LOL You should see the buttons I push when we get into an ethics debate. When ever some guys sees the handle Q-Wagoner pop up on one it is like fingernails across a chalkboard. BTW the shot I took at you about shooting 3 and 4 month old puppies WAS uncalled for and I apologies.
When you post ANYTHINNG on an open discussion board what ever you say is fair game so remember, “All is fair in love and war.” I have had my share of being questioned but I try and have my ducks in a row before I say anything that may back fire on me. I have been picked at repeatedly for my ethical views as well. I am not out to get you Dic and I am not going to be laying in wait for every post that you make either. To prove my sincerity about that I will never respond to another post that you make if you so desire. Just say the word.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on March 01, 2003, 05:57 PM:
Dang,
All this shootin' back and forth at each other and none of it was by me! Makes me think of days gone by, huh Leonard? HeHe Good to see someone else causing a ruckus once in a while.
Steve
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 01, 2003, 06:07 PM:
We can’t have that Steve!! Why don’t you tell these guys what you think about the .17 as a coyote rifle? He he he.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 01, 2003, 11:45 PM:
Hey Onecoyote I thought you were #1 and Leonard and I were scrapin for #2.,,, LOL
Who has an EGO??? Not ME. My wife is ROFL and if she keeps it up she will be ROFC with an Icepack..LOL As I wrote that reply to your note yesterday, the more I wrote the madder I got and I wanted to let you know that it was not ment or directed to you. Realy That one just snowballed up on me. Sorry Bud
Q, Thanks for meetin me in the middle. No I don't want you to stop posting my threads, you have just as much right to an opinyon as anyone. The photo thing was just to make a point,I was not disputing the validity of the photo for sure. As I said I've hunted coyotes in Neb and I know for a fact that a good caller can produce 100+ coyotes in a 4-5 month time frame, so you see I had no reason to dout your word or the pic. I wish I had a hunting partner who took it as seriously as I do. I hunt alone 60% of the time.
One thing you guys have over me is your experiance in compititions. I just never had time for them and never knew the right people I guess. Would love to get involved and partner up with someone and go give it hell sometime.
[Q,] You can always lie your way out of a lie but you can’t lie your way out of the truth. Not assuming that you are lying about anything. You could actually be modest about your prows. Who knows?
The truth is a funny thing, everyone asks for it but few realy want it when its there. Some wouldn't know it if it bit'em. I have lived my whole life being as honest and straight forward as I know how to be. Thats truth you can bank on.
So if I tell you I shot 20 coyotes with a 17 HMR I damn sure did, thats the truth like it or not.
One other thing, most people know that I have a youth hunter program here in Idaho, I don't get to hunt coyotes from Sept.1 through Dec. 10th because I'm taking kids out on their first hunt and teaching them how to make it in the woods. So I don't hunt coyotes all year just 9 months. My wife reminded me of that.
Just because we don't live next door don't mean we can't be friends
[Q,]You don’t have to lie to make friends (or patronize them either) nor do you need “back up” to lie for you. You can always lie your way out of a lie but you can’t lie your way out of the truth.
Just what are you implying with this comment, about Patronizeing people?? where in the hell did you come up with that????
This is not a compitition,I ain't after money, braggin rights, making you or anyone else look bad thats not why I come here and I damn sure ain't here to be in a pi$$in match.
Thats all from me.
Slydog
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 02, 2003, 08:46 AM:
Sly, he didn't mean anything, he's just talking; end of peepee match, agreed?
Danny mentioned something about accomplished hunters and ego, I'm afraid part of that is true. Especially predator hunters, sometimes we think we walk on water, compared to plain vanilla big game hunters.
Yes, a character flaw; not much can be done about it. Like the man said about pornography; I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
I sentence you guys to spend a week hunting coyotes together, that ought to shake things out?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on March 02, 2003, 12:52 PM:
OK Leonard, I'll take my punishment like a man,, a happy man! Sure wish my dad thought like you.LOL sure would have made my youth better.
Q, when does the punishment begin? Your place or mine, I don't care. Let me know.
Ready and willing
Slydog
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