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Author
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Topic: News Flash For Utah Caller
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 23, 2003 04:40 PM
Coyote Survival Behavior in Western South Dakota Remains Unchanged
Hehehe!
Chad,
Had a couple friends out from Rochester, MN this weekend. We went calling in the Cheyenne River Breaks to give these guys a chance to see new country. The wind was blowing about 20mph and the temps ranged from zero to -3. We had no choice but to try calling with the wind. @!#@!@!
On one particular stand we had a perfect situation. A little shelf OVER THE HILL and above a woody creek. There was no wind there at all and the snow was actually swirling back at us. I thought hey this is going to work. Called up a crippled female for one guy but the lousy .17 Rem he was shooting couldn't penetrate the buckbrush in front of the coyote's chest. Oh well, success was had by simply calling one in downwind that I spotted coming from 1/2 mile away.
Again, keep in mind that this was a shelf above the creek facing the SE towards the creek and the 20 mph wind was out of the Northwest. The wind was not carrying our scent from the shelf to the creek. The snow swirling back towards us confirmed the "undertow" for lack of a better term.
Chalk one up for Utah Caller! LOL!
OK, so next stand. We are up on the edge of the ridge where the wind has a cut at us. Howled once and watched 3 coyotes come out of a Juniper pocket, wind us and leave out of rifle range FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME. LOL!
I just wanted to let you know that nothing has changed. LOL!
Seriously though, I think there really is a lesson to be learned in regards to how scent carries. Ed and I even touched lightly on the subject before. There may be some air pressure systems or thermals that are more common to some areas than other areas that carry our scent differently.
There also may be areas where human scent is more common to coyotes and they are less afraid of it than other areas ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE COVER IN THEIR APPROACH AND THEIR DEPARTURE.
See, I don't have blinders on but I know what I see with my own eyes time and time again.
Forgive me that I can't just leave this issue alone but I really believe there is more to learn here.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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WolverineAtWork
Knows what it's all about
Member # 23
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posted February 23, 2003 09:14 PM
"There also may be areas where human scent is more common to coyotes and they are less afraid of it than other areas"
Very true, here's a few photos from calling a dairy this Sat. All of these shots are taken directly downwind. I started out w/ 5 coyotes called off a silage pile, but only 3 of them wanted to hang around and play.
Ranges varied from 10 to 30 yards.
 
There's actually 3 coyotes here.. the third is behind the bush in front of these two.
Posts: 87 | From: AZ | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 24, 2003 05:33 AM
Your pics depict two important elements.
1. Habitat that allows a coyote to conveniently circle down wind and quickly hide if necessary.
2. An area where it is common for coyotes to frequent human scent without having a negative experience related to it.
Coyote's adapt their behavior to fit their environment. That's why will never figure them out.
What I do know is that calling with the wind, IN THIS MORE OPEN COUNTRY WITH LESS PEOPLE, is fruitless. If they get your wind they are gone. When they smell humans IN THEIR TERRITORY as opposed to ours, it usually spells danger IN THIS COUNTRY.
(caps for emphasis only)
~SH~
[ February 24, 2003, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 24, 2003 09:54 AM
Wiley described coyotes use of scent and terrain in this area perfectly. The desert is full of hikers and hunters, mt bikers and farm/ranch workers. Human scent is everywhere. In areas where no shooting is permtted, like the dairy in @W pics, the coyotes are more relaxed than in areas where they are shot at on sight. They still believe their nose and will make every effort to get downwind. We try to setup so downwind is open and they have to expose themselves to wind us. In this area the coyotes use the washes and rolling terrain and brush to approach unseen. Having them pop up suddenly is the norm. Most often we aren't sure which direction they will approach from. We do know that eventually they will wind up downwind. Downwind has to be clear.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 24, 2003 02:22 PM
Wiley,I would be a liar if I said I NEVER call with the wind in my face or with a cross wind.LOL
I would say though,90% of the time I try to set up with the wind at my back.And for the same reason you mentioned."With my own eyes" I've seen one to many coyotes try to come in from behind to get my scent,and have caught me off guard.When calling with the wind at my back,Leonards "mist" works well enough to confuse them long enough to get a good shot MOST of the time.I think you are right when you say that scent travels differently depending on the area.I call some pretty open areas,but most of the time I'm on a hillside,I sometimes wonder if my scent really does travel down the hill and directly to the coyote.Who knows.LOL All I know is that calling with the wind at my back has sure worked for me over the years,and I'm glad it worked for you,even if it only was once.LOL ![[Wink]](wink.gif) GOOD HUNTING Chad......
[ February 24, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1708 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
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Member # 33
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posted February 24, 2003 06:51 PM
Seventeen Remington’s, and calling with the wind to your back? Was you drunk man? At least Ed shoots a 22-250 at coyotes. LOL I think if I had to resort to calling down wind I would pack my BMG.
Being from NE I hunt in the wind every day. I have seen coyotes that have been literally strait down wind of me and not flinch but for every one of them I have seen a dozen or more turn inside out in an attempt to get out of Dodge. Some of them I can get to stop for a shot but for the most part they lay their ears down flat and try and set a new land speed record. Whether I am calling the brushy river bottoms, Sand Hills, river breaks, wheat stubble, wood lots or juniper canyons I call in a cross wind or with the wind to my face. If its too damn windy I stay home. In my country or any country I have ever called you can easily set up with the wind in your favor. I think that if you are constantly having problems with coyotes winding you then you are setting up all wrong.
Getting winded is a fact of life and it will happen to everybody but it can easily be controlled to an expectable level, daytime calling especially. Calling at night is much more difficult. For me it is anyway but I still like to set up with the wind in my favor “IF” at all possible.
I wish there were more guys like Ed out their promoting there down wind tactics. I would sure have a WHOLE lot more coyotes to shoot at. LOL
I got my blinders on but I am keeping one eye on the coyote.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted February 24, 2003 07:57 PM
The old wind topic again. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I don't know what's wrong or right, what I do know is what works for me. Having hunted in some very heavy competition for many years tought me the best ways to take LOTS of coyotes, bobcats and gray fox in a short amount of time. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Of course the terrain I'm hunting and the amount of animals in it has alot to do with how many I get. Fact is...this old predator hunter pays more attention down wind then up wind, because I know most coyotes are headed that way. Fact is...most never get all the way down wind, most die before they get there. Fact is...if they do get down wind they are getting a nose full of (rabbit and coyote) that I have sprayed in the air, shortly after that they get some lead I put in the air. Fact is...if I have a good hunt, I'll average over an animal a hr. So watching down wind works for me, the rest of you guys do what works best for you. Of course I have a few other tricks I ain't telling you all about and for good reason, ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Good Hunting
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Q-Wagoner
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Member # 33
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posted February 24, 2003 09:50 PM
Apple Valley? I thought you moved to Idaho.
I never said that you shouldn’t watch down wind. What fool wouldn’t? The idea is keeping them from doing so like you said. The best way to do that is to set your stands up in a fashion to minimize the chance of a coyote getting behind you. I walk from stand to stand and make my stands (depending on terrain and weather) as close together as 500 yards. By doing that I create buffer zones. A lot of full days of hunting for me will only cover 6 sections. You may cover 600? I don’t know. It sounds like you guys blow into an area walk a 100 yards or so from the pickup and call and then go back to the pickup and move at least a mile away. Your system works off volume of both animals and land. I have far, far less of both so I can’t afford to operate in that manner on that kind of scale.
When you move into an area several miles from your previous stand you don’t know where the coyotes are going to come from. You have no control over it but if you move into an area that is 500 yards from your previous stand you know that the chances of a coyote getting behind you are at very least cut in half because you have just been their. We are comparing apples and oranges here. If I were in your country I would probably adopt your reasoning but as it stands I can control to a certain degree what gets behind me (down wind) or not so I will.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 25, 2003 06:31 AM
I am convinced that there is no right or wrong answer to this question IF YOU ARE NOT HURTING YOUR SUCCESS.
If coyotes have the habitat such as scattered junipers, mesquite, sage, or the habitat in the pictures above, coyotes will circle downwind of you, close to you, BECAUSE THE HABITAT ALLOWS THEM TO.
The habitat also allows them a sense of security.
No question areas with more people creates less concern.
As Rich said, I noticed too that the desert was crawling with people in some places.
Different air thermals will carry our scent differently. Different winds can scatter our scent or leave it in a cone. Night calling changes the game again as guys are relying on eyeshine.
Whether you are better off calling with or against the wind DEPENDS ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES YOU WILL BE CALLING IN.
For me to say that calling with the wind is wrong WAS WRONG.
For anyone to say that calling against the wind is wrong WAS WRONG.
It all depends on:
1. Habitat
2. Human Activity in the area
3. Air thermals
4. Wind
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted February 25, 2003 07:38 AM
Oklahoma has a good variety of different lays of land. In my area , it is mostly private and the acreages are mostly broke up in 160acre tracts, Most of these have some cleared hay fields and wooded hills. There are lots of rolling hills and ditches and creeks, that break these up. We don't have a chance here if we don't have a good open view of the downwind side. I try to allow the coyote a creek or some brushy cover to come to the sound in, but make them cross in the open to get to me or to wind me. I have north and south wind stands that I use, when we get invited to hunt new ground or asked by a farmer to " come out and kill these things", we set up stands of course according to sign but also we set up two stands per area that we like, one north and one south. The other day we had received and were still getting a good snow, so my buddy and I decided to make a few stands. We have a wheat field that has a swamp in one corner and woods around on three sides. We walked in and sat in a brush pile that was close to the road, the wind was slightly in our face and we were just 75 yds from the road with the truck in sight so we didn't figure that the coyotes would expose themselves there. We were wrong three sets of fresh tracks reinforced our own rule, here at home never call to where you can't see downwind, and watch that way often.
later pup
[ February 25, 2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: pup ]
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 25, 2003 07:51 AM
pup: "I try to allow the coyote a creek or some brushy cover to come to the sound in, but make them cross in the open to get to me or to wind me."
Good advice!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted February 25, 2003 08:48 AM
Wiley E-
Thank you,
later pup
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 25, 2003 11:51 AM
Sat I called with Jim Adriance from the club. Jim hunts from a ladder and I want some film of coyotes reacting to it. First stand as the sun peeked up, Jim was on the ladder with his back to the sun calling straight into the wind (classic sun at your back, wind in your face) toward an area coyotes had approached from on previous stands. I set up with the camera on a rise abot 60 yards crosswind from him. Two coyotes ran in from behind Jim, hit his scent 100+ yards out spun and disappeared. Jim would never have known if I didn't have a clear view of downwind. Wiley hit on the thermals and convectives and the "undertow". Yesterday eve. Tyler and I went into a desert area within city limits to film a complete 15 minute stand start to finish, first howl to last howl, for some of the guys I correspond with who aren't sure how to incorporate howling with their calling. I set up cross wind with downwind to my right and Tyler set up with the camera 10 yards tomy left. Four minutes into the stand 2 coyotes came in directly in front of me. I had been misting from the beginning and the mist was moving different directions and sometimes swirling in front of me. The female stopped in the open 25 yards out when I started working with the enticing sounds the other continued toward downwind and I didn't see it again. Tyler had the camera pointed at it, I screwed around with it for 6 minutes according to the video. I sprayed another dose of mist toward the downwind coyote and the mist blew straight back in my face. This happens occasionally because the air currents are variable even though the clouds overhead are blowing in a steady and different direction. I'm not real popular at home when it happens.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 25, 2003 03:14 PM
Rich: "I sprayed another dose of mist toward the downwind coyote and the mist blew straight back in my face."
EEEEEEUUUUUUUUWWWWWWWWW! Yucky! LOL!
Did you let your wife kiss you when you got back home?
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted February 25, 2003 03:43 PM
Q, I find an area where the animals are moving and make 10 to 15 min stands. In a hot area I only move a half mile sometimes less. When the action slows down I move out of the area and find another good spot, I hope. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Q, with all the coyotes you've dispatched over the years, forget the down wind thing I know you know better. you also know better then to use a .17 in a wind storm, duhh? Good Hunting to all you crazy predator hunters ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Q-Wagoner
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posted February 25, 2003 04:12 PM
“you also know better then to use a .17 in a wind storm, duhh?” LMAO I don’t use them for coyotes on calm days. I don’t think you do either. I like to handle things swiftly. He he he. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted February 25, 2003 06:30 PM
Guys, guys, guys...
You are talking smak about my .17 again. Be careful or I'll have to come over there and straighten you out!
later
Randy
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Q-Wagoner
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posted February 25, 2003 07:52 PM
LOL Randy I knew you would pop up sooner or later. I was wondering how much 17 bashing you could take. Not much I see. LOL No worries, it’s all in fun. Seriously though, wouldn’t the BC be better if you just threw the gun at them. LOL Depending on the angle if impact I think it would be fur friendly.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted February 25, 2003 08:00 PM
Slap em around Randy....or direct them to some interesting reading material that might free them of the binds of their ignorance:) It's difficult to separate the swift from the 250, in either drift or drop. Compared to the 17, this is the run down. A 10 mph crosswind will see the hot 22s drift accordingly using a 55 grain bullet: @100 yards= 1.0" @200= 4.0"@300= 10.0". whereas the 17 is @100= 1.2" @200= 5.2" @300= 12.7..WOW that lil pill sure blows around ehh? Where drop is concerned, the 17 beats the hot 22s. Sighted at 100 yards, the 17 drops 1.1" at 200 yards, and the 22s are around 2", at 300 yards the 17 drops 6.8", and the 22s drag behind at around 8". Much ado about nothing ehh Randy:)
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted February 25, 2003 10:43 PM
I'm sorry boys, but I love this kinda stuff. Some of you new dudes shoot a .17 and some of us old timers shoot 220 swifts and 22-250s. Ok I'll give you .17 fans a gift, if your within 150 yards you probably got a kill as long as you ain't got no wind...no bushes...and a small coyote....hehehe. Emmm...why is it that most professional predator hunters use 22-250s? or the old swift? No way in hell a .17 can out shoot one, thats why. Good Hunting, I love it, God Bless.
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Q-Wagoner
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posted February 25, 2003 11:18 PM
My bolestics program reads it like this.
All environmental parameters being equal.
My load is a 55gr NBT at 3900fps
Zeroed at 200 it drops 3.94 at 300 with 6.7 inches of wind drift at 10 mph. At 400 yards it drops 12.06 with a wind drift of 12.42 inches.
The 17 with a 25gr Hornady at 000say 3900fps??
Zeroed at 200 it drops 4.73 at 300 yards with a wind drift of 10.1inches. At 400 yards it drops 14.97 inches with a wind drift of 19.21 inches.
The moral of the story is we can make the numbers look any way we want too with the innumerable combinations of powders bullets, cartridges and even guns. I don't care about all of that. I just know that I have seen coyotes in person and on film take a hit on the shoulder and run off or take a second shot. That simply doesn't happen with my load. I seen a film that Dan Thompson was showing at a Nebraska convention where he or another guy put at least 6 rounds in a coyote before it died with a 17 rem. I know enough about 17s to realize that this was a horrible display of shooting so there is no need to go there.
Dan claims to have killed around 900 coyotes with the .17remington by the way. He probably wounded another couple of thousand though. LOL JUST KIDDING!! He has now graduated to a .223 also.
I have no problem admitting that my gun and load combination is heavy for coyotes. I reap the consequences in the fur shed with a bit of extra sewing. I am over gunned and you are under gunned? Who knows? That's what I think and will make no bones about it. All I know is that the .17 Rem and the .220 are cartridges that have never really gone anywhere. They are however cartridges that are not going away either. You can't argue with success so if you are having success with your .17 then more power to you. I'll stick with the swift.
In AZ I don't imagine that you shoot at many coyotes at ranges of 300 yards and over but I do. The load I shoot through my swift has nearly as many foot-pounds at 400 yards as the .17 does at the muzzle. That fact coupled with about a 3 inch flatter trajectory and a 6.79 inch advantage in wind the swift is the logical choice.
When I picked my rifle I wanted the fastest flattest shooting factory round I could get with out making a complete fur burger out of the coyote. The swift stood alone in this category. I don't shoot a ton of coyotes at 400 yards but I dang sure shoot enough to justify the extra punch that the swift delivers. This year (guessing) I shot 15 or 18 at 400 yards or over with my furthest at a lasered 602 yards. At 28 to 30 dollars a pop I can't afford to shoot a lesser gun.
Bad hits with bigger guns with better bullets will more often than not still end in a much quicker kill than a .17 will. A bad hit is a bad hit I know but I don't loose gut shot coyotes with my combination. I have seen several gut shot coyotes run off with the .17 Rem. Like I have said before "I am a prisoner of my own experiences."
I am sorry that it bothers you guys so much that others and myself think the .17 is a lousy coyote rifle but I have the numbers on my side. Ask Leonard in all the years of compitition hunting how many guys he knows that use the .17 for coyotes. Ask Danny and ask SH. Ask anyone that has ever placed at Rawlins. No one around here still uses one. I am not alone in my thinking here guys. Don't get mad at me I am just passing along some numbers and personal experiences.
Good hunting.
Q,
[ February 25, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Q-Wagoner ]
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 26, 2003 05:26 AM
Good post Q!
I don't have a problem with those who shoot .17s where most shots are close if they pick their shot and avoid the shoulder. They are certainly fur friendly.
As far as windage and elevation, I think it's more important to know how your gun shoots and what it is capable of then trying to compensate with a flatter shooting rifle.
Now don't take that the wrong way. I realize it's nice to have the advantage of windage, elevation, and energy in your favor but it's still more important to know where your gun shoots and what it is capable of. I have a close friend that has killed literally thousands of coyotes with a .222 because he knows how to shoot it and he knows it's limitations.
A .22 rimfire is the last caliber I would recommend for coyotes but I have killed many coyotes with a .22 rimfire by knowing how to shoot it and knowing it's limitations. That's all I had when I started out. I became quite proficient with it.
Bottom line, this coyote would have been dead with a heavier bullet in this situation and that's enough for me to take the advantage.
Hehehe!
~SH~
[ February 26, 2003, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted February 26, 2003 07:32 AM
Hey; Randy and I are not at odds with you all, I think someone else started this "lousy 17" thread , not Randy or I? Shoot whatever you want,or suits your situation. We are well aware of the contest hunting theory, every dog must fall, whether hit right or wrong. I will add though, if you believe that a gut shot coyote won't run off from a hot 22 hit in the paunch, you ain't shot as many as I thought you have. You are absolutely correct in claiming the 17 is not a long range proposition, I would never make that claim. The number of coyotes I shot the other side of 300 this year is maybe.....3 or 4? Thats a long way out there, my longest was 460, not lasered, but paced at 470 and deduct 10 for good measure.
The old brush busting theory, I thought everyone knew better than that nowdays? Bullets deflect off brush,sticks and twigs.....ALL bullets, no matter if its a 750 grain 50 bmg bullet or a diminutive 25 grain 17 cal bullet. I have a video somewhere around here showing different rifles shooting thru a screen made of brush and sticks, with an IPSC target set several feet behind. All bullets were deflected, causing either keyholing, or complete missing of the target, and that is bullets big and small. Im of the opinion that you shoot what you want and shoot well with. I happen to shoot the little stuff well, so thats what I like to use,period. What troubles me more than the caliber selection some of you choose, is the poor spelling you splatter on the monitor.....now THATS troubling:)
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~AzHunter~
"Most coyotes act the same"
[ February 26, 2003, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted February 26, 2003 08:13 AM
DANNY'S BELIEVE IT OR NOT....The perfect predator hunting rifle was invented many years ago. I've seen it in person at a sporting goods store back in the 60's called Mel's in Ingelwood, California...The same place Patty Hurst and her friends once robbed. I'm sure they took this gun because nobody has ever seen it again after that. It was the only one in exsistence and they called it a booming, banging, womping, stomping, butt-kicking, excruciatingly hurting 22-460 mag. Ten shots and it needed a new barrel and a new shooter. It had 15,000 lbs of muzzle energy and left the barrel at 9,000 fps. It could kill anything from a coyote to a cape buffalo and never leave any blood. It would make any other rifle look like a BB gun. Now I know most of you guys don't believe this story, but if you ever run across some old timmers from the CVCA south bay chapter, just ask em.
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted February 26, 2003 08:47 AM
I am a firm believer in the "shoot whatever you like" field of thought. I hold no ill will toward anyone who wants to shoot them with a 25-06 or a 22mag. Everyone needs to make up their own minds.
But, I keep reading about how under-powered this round is. I look at my rifle and shake my head. I kill most of my coyotes in North Dakota where the shots can get real long. 200 yards is close. 300 yards is common and sometimes we stretch those ranges an additional 100 yards. And STILL my .17 keeps killing. I guess my rifle is just magic.
Have I screwed up with my .17? You bet! AZhunter can vouch for that. I called in a coyote down there and took him in the shoulder. Yup, he got up and ran. So did I. I may be fat and smoke too many cigars but I finally closed the distance and finished him off. On the other hand, I've seen similar things happen when a bad hit was made with a larger caliber. So be it.
I realize most of this is all in good fun and I'm right there with you on that.
Onecoyote said, "why is it that most professional predator hunters use 22-250s? or the old swift?" I always just figured that it was because they didn't know any better and were too damned stubborn to learn.
Randy
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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