This is topic Re: Wiley E in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by juice (Member # 127) on February 20, 2003, 10:45 AM:
I'm a newbie coyote hunter, but a have been a board lurker for a time. I really don't understand the bickering that several of you engage in everytime Wiley E responds to a post. Do you feel challenged? I've been reading his and others' posts on this board and the previous one for several months. So far I haven't seen anyone successfully contradict Wiley E, but several of you really go after him. He asks tough questions and I've learned a lot from the questions as well as the answers.
Several of you have a tendency to romanticize your approach to calling, Wiley tends to be pretty up front about it, trying to get to what is KNOWN about how coyotes respond and to what sounds. Again, I've learned a lot from all of you.
Lets try to keep it on an even keel, guys. No point attacking someone every time they post.
When this board first started, I really missed Wiley because most of the posts were less informative and there were no real discussions about calls and tactics. I was glad to see him here. After the last couple of days, I kinda wonder why he bothers.
I'm not his appointed defender, but I just think some of the attacks are unwarranted. Tough crowd. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Freebird (Member # 126) on February 20, 2003, 03:10 PM:
I don't think you need to worry about Wiley at all, rather I beleive that he hungers for a good intelectual debate. Like you said more often than not those that get into a match of words with him draw from emotion rather than fact. I can not blame them , it is an easy trap to get caught in.When it gets interesting is when a person of even keel, intelect, and experience does "battle " with Wiley.
Freebird
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 20, 2003, 03:11 PM:
Hello Juice, welcome to Leonard's board.You are absolutely correct, Wiley is an asset to the board. He is very knowlegeable and I have enjoyed many discussions with him. We have a history of contention. Wiley does with many others. Sometimes the discussions become heated because Wiley, in an effort to get the response he wants from his debater, can become caustic, abrasive, and insulting. I don't treat others that way and I don't tolerate it from them. Rich C. and I engaged in a minor spat on his forum, but we did so with courtesy and respect and it was resolved quickly. Wiley needs no defense. I assure you he is absolutely capable of taking care of himself and he is not being victimized. He feeds on contention and I have seen him engage in heated disputes in multiple forums at the same time. He has the maddening ability to redirect any assualt and turn it back on you, verbal aikido. Qualities worthy of respect. It is when he resorts to belittling me, insinuating hidden agendas and motives, questioning my experience and abilities in a contemptuous manner that makes me want to pound his head flat. Some have offered him violence for that behavior. I am delighted to discuss coyotes with him or anyone else until it degenerates into an interrogation, liberally sprinked with snide, derogatory comments, by the "Lord High Inquisitor". I'm not sure what you mean by romantizing calling or if that one was directed at me. I don't kill them anymore. I enjoy every aspect of calling. I call every weekend all year long. I read everything I can find about them. I have every video on coyotes I have ever seen advertised. I have great respect and fondness for them. I belong to the largest predator club in Az. I find nothing romantic in any of that. Good luck in your calling career.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 20, 2003, 06:15 PM:
RH: "Sometimes the discussions become heated because Wiley, in an effort to get the response he wants from his debater, can become caustic, abrasive, and insulting."
Or maybe, just maybe this is how things occured:
1. Wiley asks pointed questions concerning vocalizations to get to the crust of their value.
2. Rich gets defensive in order to avoid the pointed questions.
3. Wiley responds to the defensiveness with sarcastic comments that appear "caustic", "abrasive" and "insulting".
4. Rich loses it. LOL!
5. Wiley makes light of Rich losing it.
6. 24 hours later, Rich is still mad.
7. Wiley still wants to know the justification for all the various vocalizations but the topic is avoided to the mild satisfaction of those who are uncomfortable supporting their theories.
Now that's my version of it.
We each had our say on the evaluation of what has transpired between you and I.
Since the posts are all still there, everyone can reach their own conclusions.
Rich and his defenders version is that Wiley was "belittling", "caustic", "arrogant", "abrasive", and "insulting".
But nobody mentions what was said to Wiley.
It's never been any different.
"HOW DARE ANYONE CHALLENGE MY THEORIES" becomes the prevailing attitude.
RH: "He feeds on contention and I have seen him engage in heated disputes in multiple forums at the same time."
Spying?
I enjoy debate not feeding on contention. Contention arises from those who get defensive attempting to justify their theories.
RH: "It is when he resorts to belittling me, insinuating hidden agendas and motives, questioning my experience and abilities in a contemptuous manner that makes me want to pound his head flat."
See what I mean?
Some can handle computer debate while others can't.
First, bring me the statements that I made WHILE QUESTIONING YOUR THEORIES, that you feel are "belittling" you or "questioning your experience and abilities".
Make sure they are not statements made in response to your belittling me because we both know how that happened don't we?
Let's see if your dog will hunt or you will divert this?
Don't forget where I included you in a list of callers that I respect.
Second, let me address the insinuations of hidden agendas and motives because that seems to be what is bothering you the most and I know for fact you are taking the bulk of this out of context.
My primary motive is to address information that I believe is misleading. Debate in that situation can sift out some valuable information.
Consider the implied "one size fits all" calling WITH THE WIND debate.
What was the results of that BESIDES BRUISED EGOS?
The results were that different calling situations require different techniques. Coyotes respond differently in cover and circle downwind BECAUSE THEY CAN. Coyotes in the open country that I call rarely circle downwind UNLESS IT'S CONVENTIENT FOR THEM TO DO SO.
What's the difference? The habitat!
One man says call with the wind the next man says call against the wind. THE DEBATE SORTS OUT THE PROPER APPLICATION OF EACH.
Yeh there is some bruised egos along the way and some toes get stepped on.
The value in the debate goes to the beginner that hears all the conflicting arguments and now can sort it out.
The "whys" is where it is at.
Now with that in mind (understanding the value in debate), here is a young guy starting out and he hears all the various vocalizations and is so worried whether or not he can make the right howl in the right situation or whether or not it sounds realistic that he is basically beaten before he starts.
He probably has the most perfect howl FOR THE COYOTES by the end of the first day he practices. He goes out and doesn't have any luck. Due to all the emphasis that is being placed on howling and all the vocalizations to use at this time or that time (what I call "hype") he is convinced that his lack of success is because he doesn't sound good WHEN THERE IS SO MANY, MANY OTHER MORE IMPORTANT VARIABLES THAT CONSTITUTE SUCCESSS.
What do I have to offer this young man? The fact that he can kill many coyotes with a simple REALISTIC SOUNDING lone howl.
Would he kill more with a few more different howls in different situations? That is what we were debating and now you know why.
Now, as far as the commercialization aspect, I am referring to all the companies out there, including the late Bill Austin, that were selling a huge variety of all the various coyote vocalizations for marketing reasons when one lone howl tape combined with a lot of knowledge of all the other important aspects of calling could garner him success in 90% of the situations.
That is the commercialization that I am referring to. Not that you, Rich Higgins, are on the take. I don't believe that at all. So get that out of your head. The TRUE COMMERCIALIZATION is adding to the beginners confusion JUST FOR PROFIT.
You Rich are simply perpetuating the same theories that the commercializers are capitalizing on.
Basically, you became the fall guy for a real pet peeve of mine and are probably an innocent bystander in reality. That may explain your defensiveness.
The vocalization hype has become a big deal to me because I hate to see a young caller so damned confused about which sound to use and when that they give up hope and quit when the sound had nothing to do with it. If you knew how many young callers I have taken the time to teach the basics too that I have seen struggling with this, maybe you could understand.
Now you can second guess this motive and stay convinced that I have some huge ego I have to feed by showing what I know about coyotes or you can sit back, take a breath, and think about what I am actually saying.
You are paranoid and reading way too much into this. Me, I am probably over reacting to something that has been a problem and taking it out on you. I concede to that possibility.
RH: "Some have offered him violence for that behavior."
Yeh, there will always be those who appear to be mixing medications who still try to solve their problems with their fists. When the dust all settles I won't change anything about me with the exception of trying to explain my motives better. Most people are smart enough to realize that words on computers tell us very little about the person typing them.
RH: "I am delighted to discuss coyotes with him or anyone else until it degenerates into an interrogation, liberally sprinked with snide, derogatory comments, by the "Lord High Inquisitor"."
Think about the words you combined in that sentence Rich.
Cool you jets, take a breath and read this post before you continue on the path you are on.
If you can't answer questions in regards to your theories then you don't have much confidence in them do you?
If you wonder about my motives, ASK! Don't jump to conclusions. I owe you the same!
Hell, consider what I sent you. In your anger you may try to trivialize it until you start paying attention to some of the things I have stated in there.
I could sit here and say, "you ungrateful SOB", but I don't believe that at all. I believe you are frustrated because you are reading my motives wrong.
Now don't respond to this for a day or so and don't anyone else respond to it at all UNLESS THEY HAVE SOMETHING POSITIVE TO SAY IN RESPONSE TO WHAT I HAVE SAID. If you can't say anything good, then don't say anything at all and I will know that I failed once again to get my point across.
Just think about it before you respond and maybe we can salvage something here.
If something is still bothering you, let me have it.
pup, I am not going to answer any more of YOUR questions FOR NOW. I don't owe you anything. I have already told you one of the most important aspects of this whole topic. What you chose to do with it is up to you.
Lance, please be your own man.
Az, Pick an emotion and stay with it!
I'm outta here, whether I come back depends on the attitudes in response.
The only hope I have here is for a better understanding of who I am and what I stand for, nothing about how I post is going to change.
Leonard, keep up the good work!
Happy trails all!
~SH~
[ February 21, 2003, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 20, 2003, 07:01 PM:
Wiley E said: " here is a young guy starting out and he hears all the various vocalizations and is so worried whether or not he can make the right howl in the right situation or whether or not it sounds realistic that he is basically beaten before he starts."
"He probably has the most perfect howl FOR THE COYOTES by the end of the first day he practices. He goes out and doesn't have any luck. Due to all the emphasis that is being placed on howling and all the vocalizations to use at this time or that time (what I call "hype") he is convinced that his lack of success is because he doesn't sound good WHEN THERE IS SO MANY, MANY OTHER MORE IMPORTANT VARIABLES THAT CONSTITUTE SUCCESSS." (end quote)
Wiley,
That statement is the best explanation of the problems I see happening to new callers trying to howl coyotes that I have ever seen. Howling is being painted as a rocket science by a few people, and the fact is that howling is really quite simple. If we can just get the false "hype" out of the minds of new callers who want to howl for coyotes, man oh man we have came a long ways!!!
Guys,
Wiley E and I had quite a battle on the computer board (not this board). It happened maybe two years or more ago. We solved it by spending time together in the hills of south dakota, and by talking about it over dinner. These boards do not allow us to see the expression on a man's face, or hear the tone of his voice as he speaks. Face to face meetings can hash out a lot of things if you really want to do that. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on February 20, 2003, 07:58 PM:
Let the dumb old Texan think a spell.............................................
Juice 1 Post
Freebird 2 Post
Both talking about how badly Lord Wiley is being treated.
Now give me a minute to look for the correct word, DDDDUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHH
Got it, TRANSPARENT. Shezam!!!!!!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 20, 2003, 08:14 PM:
There is simply a clash of styles, and I don't mean hunting styles although there is probably that, also.
Why not try to narrow the subject a little? Just a thought. Another method, write obliquely. Works for me when I want wiggle room for consensus, if at all possible.
You guys can do this, I know you can. LB
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on February 20, 2003, 08:53 PM:
Verbal Akido. I like that description!
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 21, 2003, 05:41 AM:
Varmint hunter,
"Lord Wiley"?
What's on your mind?
I have no idea who juice is and never heard of him/her before and I would assume that Freebird followed the trapping link over.
What do you believe is transparent?
How about some straight talk!
~SH~
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on February 21, 2003, 06:15 AM:
Wiley. I have had to install a grease fitting on my mouse. Just to scroll through your post.
Straight talk.
I think I have a better chance of calling up Bigfoot, Sasquatch, And a Sabertooth Tiger all in one night. Than I will receiving straight talk from you.
I only have limited time out of the bed each day. I will not waste it with you.
My last post was not addressed to you, And this will be my one, And only.
Varmit hunter, Spelled with no n.
Posted by juice (Member # 127) on February 21, 2003, 07:32 AM:
Varmit Hunter - TRANSPARENT? What exactly do you mean? I'm not Wiley E looking for sympathy. I've been to Kadoka, SD, but I sure wouldn't want to live there. I'm 50 years old, have been hunting deer, pheasants, ducks, and geese since I was 14. Started on turkeys several years ago, and have a real appreciation of what it takes to bag them. I mostly hunt public ground, and have learned how to be successful even though you share the area with any Joe that shows up on a given day.
I've shot several coyotes, but have never tried to call one. I'm here because I want to do that, and I figured paying attention on one of these boards might be a good way to avoid a bunch of beginner mistakes. I didn't come here to listen to a bunch of high school kids bicker and call each other names.
I stand by my earlier comment, it seems that some of you feel challenged and defensive when questioned. If you can't substantiate your beliefs, then how am I to decide whether they in fact work as you describe? Rich Higgins, I tried not to point my comments at anyone in particular. I enjoy your posts, and have gotten quite a bit of good out of them. I understand that your approach is a little different than those who only want to kill coyotes, and that is cool. The techniques still apply.
This is an incredible source of information for me, I appreciate the perspective each of you has.
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 21, 2003, 08:16 AM:
Wiley E-
An army troup was traveling over the darkest part of Africa and they accidently shoved out a HumVee. Not want it to go to waste as there was no way to get it back, they decided to go back and fly over and throw down the key and owners manual the problem is that they were out of owners manuals. The sargent told the private to throw out a key and get on the loud speaker and tell the natives that the key goes in the ignition.
Thank you for telling me that the "key goes in the ignition." The problem is that nobody in my village has seen this kind of thing before. What is it exactly? What does it do, and what is it for? Will it be useful in gathering fruit and nuts? As you can see the villagers have questions and the infomation provided was very helpful and true, but didn't do them any good.
later pup
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on February 21, 2003, 08:24 AM:
Juice, My apologies to you. I was caught up in the heat of a battle that you walked into. The purpose of this site is to help each other. There is a wealth of knowledge here. I have been calling for 43 years. Yet I learn every time I log on.
If I can be of any help to you. I will do my best.
Varmit hunter
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 21, 2003, 09:13 PM:
vh: "I only have limited time out of the bed each day. I will not waste it with you."
vh: "My last post was not addressed to you, And this will be my one, And only."
That's straight talk!
Sounds good to me!
Looking forward to seeing what 43 years can provide to this forum.
~SH~
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 22, 2003, 06:45 AM:
Scott,
You sure are an abrasive old cuss. Have you ever pondered the notion that the people are not reacting so much to what you say but rather in how you say it?
I have no doubt that you know coyotes but you sure put people on the edge quickly.
Maybe your mission to help and educate could be helped along if you'd just pick and choose a bit more carefully.
My two cents.
Randy
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2003, 07:30 AM:
Randy Buker: "Have you ever pondered the notion that the people are not reacting so much to what you say but rather in how you say it?"
Certainly!
Whenever you dig for the "whys" of a statement, you will step on toes. If you remain passive, the "whys" will be dismissed as "everyone having their own opinion".
I don't belive in the old "agree to disagree" or "all opinions are equal" mindset.
I have yet to hear a court decision stating, "the jury has decided to agree to disagree." LOL!
Watch the spin on that statement!
You have theories that can be backed with facts and observations and you have theories that cannot be backed with facts and observations.
I try to sort through it while most people don't want to rock the boat. Obviously, I don't approach it that way. I think some opinions can be backed up while others can't.
Yes, there may be better ways to arrive at the justifications than to challenge people but I have tried the passive way and that approach is simply dismissed as, "we will have to agree to disagree", or "all opinions are of equal merit".
Perhaps I can try again to contradict what has been stated more indirectly rather than attaching it to who stated it. The reaction is usually the same.
I am focused on what has been said, not who says it. I can't remember from one day to the next who I challenged as who doesn't matter. I challenge everything that my experiences differ with and it doesn't matter to me who said it.
To divert the challenge, the focus switches to how I say things, the length of my posts, copy/paste format, adjectives, , yada yada yada. In other words, anything to avoid the questions and divert the attention.
"RED HERRING"!
You either challenge a statement or you take the "all opinions are of equal value" route which leaves many confused.
Have a nice day Randy!
Thanks for you advise!
Been there, tried that!
~SH~
[ February 22, 2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 22, 2003, 12:01 PM:
Well said Scott, while I don't perscribe to the level of your thinking and the actions it causes you to take.
I do admire them.
You're right about the issue at hand sometimes needing to be lit on fire before there is enough light with which to see it clearly.
And you got a pocket full of matches! LOL
Mr. Buker, welcome!
Jeff 
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on February 22, 2003, 06:19 PM:
Who is this Wiley guy? At age 43, calling himself LORD Wiley. I think I better let this youngun know you got to be at least 60 to be called LORD... you got 17 years to go for lords sake young fella. And what's this stuff about no two coyotes acting the same? Ever seen many of them die? They all seem to die with the same results... dead. I'd call that the same Mr. Wiley. These young folks of today, what's this world coming to? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good Hunting Wiley
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2003, 06:28 PM:
Hey Dan Hehehe!
Good to see ya oot and aboot!
I didn't give me the name Lord Wiley, that was a gift from the forum police.
Hope things are good for ya!
~SH~
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