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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 18, 2003, 08:46 AM:
If someone really wants to take howling to a higher level of understanding, here's how to do it.
Those of you who collect calling videos and have access to both the E.L.K. "doggin coyotes" series of videos, Randy Andersons videos, and Ed Sceery's instructional videos, try this.
Study those howls, consider the circumstances, consider the time of day, consider the time of year, and compare the coyote reactions.
See if you can detect any patterns.
Many times you will see coyotes responding to the dogs and totally oblivious to the sounds that are being made at that point. A coyote that is standing there with his head cocked listening to your sounds tells you nothing.
A coyote that is approaching a certain sound tells you something. A coyote that comes to a call after the shot REALLY TELLS YOU SOMETHING.
I challenge you to show me someone who can duplicate the difference between a warning bark from a coyote that has busted you in the winter and a warning bark of a coyote pair on the den in the spring. One warns coyotes and one attracts coyotes. SHOW ME THE DIFFERENCE.
Keep in mind the "potential" age of these coyotes in your research.
To really take this to a scientific level if some of you are so inclined, here's how to do it. Tape those sounds and record the decibals and compare them. Then imitate them with your howler, record that sound until the graphs are the same.
Will that improve your luck in howling?
Probably not but it will give you a better understanding of coyote vocalizations if that is really your goal.
I'm not trying to be smart here either. If someone truly took coyote vocalizations to this level, I would pay attention as it would have merit TO BETTER UNDERSTANDING rather than application.
I don't know how volume and distance are going to play into the recordings but maybe graphs would show the differences between the howls that sound the same to you and I but elicit different reactions from coyotes.
I enjoy learning but I will continue to question the application as I haven't found any coyotes that can't be called within a given week with a handful of sounds.
~SH~
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 18, 2003, 09:35 AM:
Why was the coyote just looking at you with his head cocked? What did that tell you? What did you do to that response? Did you just lip squeak until you got him in range and then let a round fly or did you try a distinct howl that you have learned , with the proper inflection and tone.
Do you have some video footage to discredit that the attraction is just because and has nothing to do with a particular sound. Do you have some of your own footage to disprove the discernability of what we are portraying in our howls. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
If you are going to drive then drive, if not then sit in the back seat and hush. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Maybe just maybe when we get it figured out and we will , We'll let you in on it, When you open your mind and attend the seminar.
later pup
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 18, 2003, 10:58 AM:
Gosh pup, you seem awful defensive, why is that?
Isn't questioning part of learning?
Don't just make statements in response to my posts, show me the error in my ways by backing your position with facts.
pup: "Why was the coyote just looking at you with his head cocked?"
Because he came as far as wanted to come and was looking at the source of the sound. Do you have a better explanation?
While he stands there and you blow all kinds of new sounds at him some of which make him look your way and some of which don't, did you learn something that will make you a better caller?
When he finally does leave, was it because he was ready to leave anyway or was it the sound you were making at the time that made him leave?
If he comes back, is it because he is still curious about what attracted him in the first place or is it because of the different sound you just made?
Don't you think these questions have validity?
You cannot remove the bias in their reactions from what attracted them to you in the first place.
THE FATAL ATTRACTION!
pup: "What did that tell you?"
That he came to the call, that he came as far as he wanted because now he could see the source of the sound, that he didn't know what the heck to do, and that he really didn't have anything better to do than stand there with his head cocked. That's what it told me.
What would it tell you?
pup: "What did you do to that response?"
Take a dip of chew and wonder if this particular coyote realizes that it is about to die.
pup: "Did you just lip squeak until you got him in range and then let a round fly or did you try a distinct howl that you have learned , with the proper inflection and tone."
I can remember one time when I gave out the most perfect howl that I have ever given. I assume it had the proper inflection and tone because I have called so many other coyotes with it over the years and at least had them answer even when they didn't want to come. You know what that coyote did next? You guessed it, he cocked his head and just stood there wondering how that coyote could possibly be so fat and ugly.
pup: "Do you have some video footage to discredit that the attraction is just because and has nothing to do with a particular sound. Do you have some of your own footage to disprove the discernability of what we are portraying in our howls."
Which attraction?
The initial response when the coyote howled back?
The approach to the stand?
Or the head cock instead of bolting and running?
I am assuming you mean the head cock.
I don't need video footage to have observed literally thousands of coyotes within close range of calling. I have toyed with many of them with different sounds but I didn't learn much because their response was biased.
How was their response biased?
They could now see the source of the sound. When they approached, they couldn't.
I have no idea what they think of this fat ugly camo blob making strange noises at them because it's usually unnatural for a coyote to see a fat ugly camo blob making noises at them that they are attracted to.
By the way, what is the discernability of what you are portraying with your howls once you have a coyote standing there looking at a blob of camo making sounds that they are attracted to?
As Ross Perot would say, "I'm all ears".
pup: "If you are going to drive then drive, if not then sit in the back seat and hush."
Hush? Geeeeeez, I'm just asking questions trying to learn something here. Lighten up!
I thought you were going to teach me how to drive. Teach me what those head cocked close range coyotes are telling you.
pup: "Maybe just maybe when we get it figured out and we will, We'll let you in on it, When you open your mind and attend the seminar."
LOL! Pup, how long have you been calling just out of curiosity?
As far as opening my mind, let me tell you somthing that I have learned about coyotes over 30 years of calling and 20 years of howling.
"The more I learn about coyotes, the more I realize how little I actually know about them."
Now what do ya think of that?
Does that sound like a narrow minded statement based on many years of experience?
Attend the seminar huh? Is there a cost?
Let me give you one guarantee pup, you will never, I REPEAT NEVER, figure every coyote out. Forget it because it can't be done.
Every coyote is an individual that elicits various behavioral responses based on their natural instincts and their previous experiences.
On the national grasslands near my home, coyotes used to come to the sound of gunfire knowing that dead pr. dogs were waiting for them.
You think you can figure them out better than all the guys that I correspond with that kill them 365 for 20+ years?
No offense but if you truly believe you can figure coyotes out, you are in for a real disappointment!
They didn't expand into the eastern United States during the era of $100 coyotes by being predictable.
Best of luck to you pup!
Again, don't be offended, we're just talking here.
I am more than willing to learn but I have just enough experience and associate with many others with that same level of experience that I feel more than comfortable in questioning anyones theories on coyotes.
One last thing, don't confuse confidence with arrogance. Many people make that mistake. There is a difference.
Have a good one pup!
~SH~
[ February 18, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 18, 2003, 12:32 PM:
Wiley E-
It is not that you asked the questions it is the manner of tone and inflection and duration and volumn in the way that you ask the questions.
I asked my wife if she was in the mood. I didn't care to hear her true answer, I just asked the question.
It is becoming obiviously clear that you have desimated the coyote population in your area and that you are greatly esteemed by your peers.
The desimation by yourself would explain all the questions that you seem to want to know.
Why did I get defensive? Do I get to be childish and say because you pushed first, or do I get to say that it seems that attracted that response from me, by the way that you inflected your questions and the tone that you set with the duration of your onslaught.
I never said that you had error in your ways. I don't know your ways of calling or life for that matter, and I am fast becoming closed minded to any of them.
Why would you ask me what it told me about the head cocked coyote? It is your scenerio, I wasn't there. You tell me how he reacted when you challenged howled at him. If he just looked at you or what. When I get one that just stops , I'll throw the book at him and I will gladly let you know what happens. Then we can speculate why he loses interest.
Wiley E-"Take a dip of chew and wonder if this particular coyote realizes that it is about to die."
NOw this is the stuff. Can I borrow this line and add it to my next kill scene, as long as I give you credit for it. Man, now that is about the best thing you have ever said.
Wiley E-"I can remember one time when I gave out the most perfect howl that I have ever given. I assume it had the proper inflection and tone because I have called so many other coyotes with it over the years and at least had them answer even when they didn't want to come. You know what that coyote did next? You guessed it, he cocked his head and just stood there wondering how that coyote could possibly be so fat and ugly."
Why did you decide to howl at that particular time ? When he stood there and cocked his head did you get a dip of chew, which by the way you don't get a "dip" of. YOu get a dip of snuff, and you take a chew of tobacco, but who am I to try and share anything with you.
Did you take a dip of chew and wonder if that particular coyote realized that it was about to die?
This passage also brings out the question of why are you getting busted so easily. Are they that close or do we have a break up of outline problem?
The because you said doesn't credit you any. I was hoping for some video footage so all could see.
you then go into the mindless drivel again about how I said that I knew it all , which is a poor attempt to cover up your agenda. Which seems to be Wiley E. knows all.
I never said that I would figure every coyote out, I did say that I would get more of a grasp on their behavior to howls and would get that on video.
Wiley E-"Again, don't be offended, we're just talking here. I am more than willing to learn but I have just enough experience and associate with many others with that same level of experience that I feel more than comfortable in questioning anyones theories on coyotes. One last thing, don't confuse confidence with arrogance. Many people make that mistake. There is a difference."
Blow that smoke up somebody else, I'm not buying it.
The only thing that you have said is that it doens't matter which or what kind of howl you make the coyote isn't necessarily attracted to a particular sound. This is old wives talk, and will be disproved. Don't have it in front of me , but I'm heading in that direction.
later pup
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 18, 2003, 12:43 PM:
Sorry Wiley E-
I didn't answer your question on how long I have been calling. But this question is like all of your others not revelant. And this question goes to prove the my point of your bad attitude and want to be god like, because if you had read my post you will find that I have already answered you, in the post you initially started bashing me.
18 yrs.
later pup
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 18, 2003, 01:07 PM:
Boy this has turned into quite a debate.Pup,you need to learn to take ol'Wiley with a grain of salt he comes across as "the old dominant male coyote" at times but he is a good guy and does have alot of good info to pass on.Don't get me wrong we've had our share of debates right Wiley. But hey,it's all in fun and learning.As far as Howling goes I've been howling for coyotes for a few years now and I tend to agree with Wiley in the fact that simplicity is the key from my experience,I don't see a need to get to complicated in your sequences but that's just my opinion FWIW.GOOD HUNTING Chad....
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 18, 2003, 01:31 PM:
Chad-
I never said that keeping it simple was the wrong approach, I just think that there is more to the art of howling and they will have a distinct response to certain types of howls.
He (Wiley E) has his point of veiw and is sceptical of any others. Which backs up my point of his tendancy to be close to close-minded.
I will learn something from him at some point in time. Right now I am not known by him and it is my turn in the barrel. So be it. Just a little pain in the posterior that some people have to display a "better than thou" behavior.
later pup
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 18, 2003, 01:34 PM:
pup: "It is becoming obiviously clear that you have desimated the coyote population in your area and that you are greatly esteemed by your peers."
Wrong pup, I have lots of coyotes in this area. My job is not about desimating populations, it's about removing problem individuals.
pup: "Why would you ask me what it told me about the head cocked coyote? It is your scenerio, I wasn't there."
You didn't have to be there, I described it to you. He was standing there within gun range and when I blew the call, he cocked his head to the side. What does that tell you?
pup: "Why did you decide to howl at that particular time?"
To see what he would do. He didn't do anything but stood there looking stupid.
pup: "When he stood there and cocked his head did you get a dip of chew, which by the way you don't get a "dip" of. YOu get a dip of snuff, and you take a chew of tobacco, but who am I to try and share anything with you."
Thanks for the correction! You liked that one huh? Here's another but not very original. I stole it from Marty Robbins.
"the tick of the clock said death would wait 10 seconds more"
How do ya like that one?
pup: "Did you take a dip of chew and wonder if that particular coyote realized that it was about to die?"
Nah, not that time I didn't! I was kinda hoping he would stomp his foot or something. Maybe curl his lip and show his teeth.
pup: "This passage also brings out the question of why are you getting busted so easily. Are they that close or do we have a break up of outline problem?"
Busted? I didn't realize I had been busted. I called him to rifle range but I am sure I probably deal with less cover in most calling situations than you do.
pup: "you then go into the mindless drivel again about how I said that I knew it all , which is a poor attempt to cover up your agenda. Which seems to be Wiley E. knows all."
Pup, you're getting a little paranoid. I never said you thought you knew it all because nobody knows it all and I certainly know better than to think that I know it all.
pup: "I never said that I would figure every coyote out, I did say that I would get more of a grasp on their behavior to howls and would get that on video."
Wonderful! I hope it helps with the interpretation as well.
pup: "The only thing that you have said is that it doens't matter which or what kind of howl you make the coyote isn't necessarily attracted to a particular sound. This is old wives talk, and will be disproved. Don't have it in front of me , but I'm heading in that direction."
Pup, my posts are still there. Show me where I said that "it doesn't matter which or what kind of howl you make, the coyote isn't necessarily attracted to a particular sound".
Show me where i said that pup!
I never said that and anybody that can read knows I never said that. Of course the particular sounds matters, after all, that's what called them in the first place wasn't it? I am simply questioning whether a lone howl is more or less attractive than any other howl.
Have a nice day pup!
~SH~
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 18, 2003, 01:37 PM:
Wiley E can get a little huffy now and then alright, but I will tell you guys something that I hope you will think about for awhile. Wiley E knows what he is talking about. I have been calling coyotes for many years. I spent a couple of days watching Wiley E work coyotes awhile back and I say again, The guy knows coyotes. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 18, 2003, 01:37 PM:
pup: "Just a little pain in the posterior that some people have to display a "better than thou" behavior."
Just a pain in the posterior that some people have to interpret questions as a disply of "better than thou" behavior.
Have a good one pup!
~SH~
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 18, 2003, 01:52 PM:
As I expected one of the "pards" rides up to the defense.
Welcome to the party Rich#112.
As for what you said which I generalized, MY BAD,
Wiley E-"At the same time, I am not sure a "CHALLENGING TYPE HOWL" has any more attractiveness than ANY OLD HOWL. I've used enough of both for enough years that I believe a strange howl is a strange howl and a strange howl has attraction."
This sounds like a any ol howl will do to me.
And it happened folks we agreed on the pain in the posterior.
later pup/ jim
Oh yeah, Have a nice day Mr. Wiley E.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 18, 2003, 02:06 PM:
Pup,
I did not say that Wiley E and I were "pards", didn't even say that I liked the man. I have met him, ate lunch with him and hunted with him. He and I even called in a pair of coyotes one night by use of voice howls. Wiley may not know night hunting, but then we were not really hunting when we called that pair up so close we could smell their breath. Those two coyotes evidently didn't realize that neither one of us knew much about calling coyotes at night. Shucks they just came in anyway. Hey pup, I am an old dog myself but I can still learn a new trick. LOL.
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 18, 2003, 02:11 PM:
Sorry to snap at you Rich#112, but I have been cornered by and old dog and I am having trouble getting across because he doesn't believe that I am not just giving him any old howl, but one with a distinct tone and inflection.
later pup
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 18, 2003, 03:19 PM:
For the sake of argument, allow me to spice the pot a bit. Pup has used the terms "tone" and "inflection" and, undoubtedly, there's probably some merit to those factors in reproducing coyote vocalizations. The $64K question is just how likely is it that we'll ever be able to reproduce an accurate howl that completely dupes the responding coyote? Is it possible to think that over the millenia, as coyotes have evolved to their current state, and as their means of communicating with one another has co-evolved, that possibly the coyote ear has evolved in parallel and it not only is much more acute in hearing than our ears, but that it is specifically adapted to perceive certain tones and inflections, thus explaining the apparant variations in lone howls, everyday ol' howls, and the way they respond to those sounds? Even though we can't figure out what seperates one howl from another, or why the response varied? Numerous bird species have evolved highly acute senses of hearing and their vocalizations at specific times of the year trigger specific responses from others of the same specie. In order to accurately identify and discern one vocalization from another, biologists had to acquire sonographs of the birds. Personally, I think we could learn a lot from employing this level of technology, but before that kind of money would be invested in such a project, there'd have to be some means of justifying the expense. And settling this debate betwqeen pup and Wiley E. probably won't be enough. As far as the cocked head issue... I've had that happen. Wondered why, for a minute. But then, I thought about what would happen if the tables were turned? You're sitting there, calling away, when a coyote walks up to you from behind. Just as you see him, he says, "Hey, Bubba. What's up?" Not exactly the sound you expected to hear, so what do you do? Well, at some point, I'd probably pass out or fill my britches, but somewhere along the line, I'd probably hold my head kinda funny to one side or the other.
And, pup, arguing with Wiley is like rastlin' with a pig. You know the rest.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 18, 2003, 05:35 PM:
Well guys,
I have some mixed feelings regarding coyote language, and I truly believe that every honest coyote man out there has some of those same questions in their mind. Those of us who have spent a lot of time listening to the various yippity yowls and watching coyotes respond to certain sounds, have developed some opinions on the subject. I think that I can usually tell by the tone of a coyote's howl when he is angry and is challenging me to get the heck out of his or her living room. I also believe that I can tell the frustrated barks of a hung-up yote that has me busted, from the angry warning of the yote who is challenging me to a fight. I know that Wiley probably does not agree with me on that point, but does it really matter that much? Gosh if we all agreed on everything it would be a dull world now would it not?
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 18, 2003, 07:06 PM:
I don't know whether I am having difficulty getting my point across or what.
This issue is not whether coyotes have a complex language, or whether coyotes use different howls at different times, or whether an angry bark/howl is different than a challenging bark howl, this issue is about whether or not "interrogation howls", "solicitation howls", "lost mate howls", "threat/bark howls", "assembly howls", "non threatening howls", "challenge howls", and numerous other marketed howls are any more effective in calling coyotes than simply using a realistic sounding lone howl in combination with distress calls.
That's it!
You guys can spin this any way you want but this is the only issue on the table as far as I am concerned.
Why a few simple questions had to lead to so much defensiveness I'll never know!
I am compelled to believe that a lot of the vocalization hype we hear now days is simply based on commercialization by those with something to sell and serves to mislead people.
That's why I am asking the hard questions.
Wonder what happened to Lance, his posts used to sound a lot like pups. Hmmm?? Funny he hasn't joined in on the discussion?
~SH~
[ February 18, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2003, 05:25 AM:
Wiley,
Hey I do believe we found something that you and I agree on. Your last post is it! I think that you should buy the lunch we celebrate this big breakthrough over. LOL I have been trying to de-bunk the coyote language myth for a couple of years now. I think that we both feel that there is some coyote talk going on among the yotes that humans do not yet understand. What I am trying to do is get the newer callers to not worry so much about what this howl or that really means. No sense in trying to make it harder than it really is. Howling is not rocket science. Howl and they will come. Pretty simple when you stop and think about it.
Posted by GMB (Member # 109) on February 19, 2003, 06:46 AM:
I'm 54 years old. I read these posts all the time.To try to learn as much as possible.I have learned in 35 years of calling,that a coyote can teach you more about calling than anyother means. I have learned that people that act like they know it all are the ones that need to learn the most. It is sad, but if you think you know it all you have stopped learning. If you are calling coyotes, keep doing what you are doing. If you are not calling coyotes change something. If you want to learn somthing from this board learn to weed out the BS. Opinions are like some other things everone has one. This is mine; learn from experience it is the best teacher. Then you can sometimes weed out facts that are helpful from BS that will do nothing for you except confuse you. YOUNG CALLERS LEARN THIS. Go out and call write notes as to what works and what does not work. Keep these note, read them often learn from them and when you are older, start some young man out in this sport, tell him how you learned, let him learn from expierience and maybe he won,t learn your mistakes, that you keep making because you think you know it all. You are never too old to learn.
GMB
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 19, 2003, 07:09 AM:
wiley E-
You did not start this with your last changed statement which you put in bold. You started in on me because I asked the questioned If I should challenge howl or not. You never asked about my whole set so you could get a good idea about what was going on, you just started in on the logic of
Wiley E-"At the same time, I am not sure a "CHALLENGING TYPE HOWL" has any more attractiveness than ANY OLD HOWL. I've used enough of both for enough years that I believe a strange howl is a strange howl and a strange howl has attraction."
This is what you started with. Then you jumped on whether I had a clue or not on what a core area was.
You want respect , earn a little. A simple "Pup would you please explain your whole stand in detail so that I may make an informed decision on whether on not I should of moved closer to the coyotes, or not.
Which according to your locating theory , I should of done anyway.
So don't try and squirm your way out of this, by changing your statement now. Want you are forgetting is that our conversation is happening over two posts and a person must read them both to see your are questioning, what I think is a way of trying to learn something new not just sit there proclaiming the world is flat.
later pup
[ February 19, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: pup ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 19, 2003, 07:47 AM:
Wiley, Rich, et al. It is good that a man know his limitations, it is not good when that man attempts to impose those limitations on others. If you are unable to learn more about a subject, or if you are content with the status quo, or if you just have no desire to learn any more, that is fine. But if you discourage others from studying, experimenting, sharing experiences, and ASKING QUESTIONS of others on this board by cnsistantly asking sarcastic questions of them and making comments designed to ridicule, then it is not fine. It is a disservice to the members of this board. I am once again getting phone calls and E-mails from members wanting to discuss calling and howling privately because they don't want to run the same tired guantlet on the board. Wiley, pup is not Lance. He is Jim McGill, an experienced, successful caller from Ok. He has enough enthusiasm for the sport to make the drive to Az. twice in 4 months. He is applying that same enthusiasm toward learning everything he can about howling. You will not discourage this man. After volume upon volume upon volume of text you have posted regarding howling, it can all be condensed to "use a standard lonehowl followed by prey distress" and " no one knows what coyotes mean". We get it. Time after repetitious time, we get it. Although I do commend you on the variety of ways you are able to say the same thing, still, we get it. You claim to be concerned that SOME are motivated by $$$$$$ and you have apparently appointed yourself guardian shepherd to save us sheep from being sheared by unscrupulous entrepreneurs bent on selling us something that doesn't work, that we don't have enough sense to figure it out for ourselves. You have made yourself the bane of commercialsm. Interesting to me that you make your living from calling. You are paid to call and kill coyotes. The ultimate commercialism. Lighten up Wiley. You're creating an atmoshere that is unpleasant enough to discourage others from contributing.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 19, 2003, 08:56 AM:
Rich: "It is good that a man know his limitations, it is not good when that man attempts to impose those limitations on others."
How is questioning the relevance of certain vocalizations, IMPOSING LIMITATIONS?
Explain it Rich!
Rich: "If you are unable to learn more about a subject, or if you are content with the status quo, or if you just have no desire to learn any more, that is fine."
That statement is nothing more than baseless, unfounded speculative SPIN on your part CONCERNING ME!
If I wasn't willing to learn, I WOULDN'T BE HERE.
All this BS is just spin to avoid having to justify your vocalization theories, why not admit it. As long as you can spin this into what my motivations are, you don't have to answer uncomfortable questions and you can just go on believing that you have discovered something revolutionary RATHER THAN PROVING IT.
You may have something here Rich, WHY NOT PROVE IT! What are you so afraid of? If you are so confident that these vocalizations that you have discovered will change calling as we know it, YOU SHOULD WELCOME THE QUESTIONS, not avoid them by attempting to discredit those who question you.
I could just as easily speculate on you. Let's see, I think Rich is just paranoid because he wants everyone to believe that he has discovered some new revolutionary coyote vocalization breakthru that will change calling as we know it. Happy now?
Rich: "But if you discourage others from studying, experimenting, sharing experiences, and ASKING QUESTIONS of others on this board by cnsistantly asking sarcastic questions of them and making comments designed to ridicule, then it is not fine."
Why does asking questions based on quotes constitute discouraging others from studying, experimenting, sharing experiences, and asking questions??
That's just spin to attempt to keep me from questioning your theories.
It's ok to theorize and allow readers to believe that the reason a coyote stops at 55 yards and will come no further is because they are at the end of some imaginary "CORE AREA" rather than having somebody pose the possiblitiy that maybe this coyote knows exactly where that sound came from and is stopped there because thats where he wanted to stop to see where the sound came from.
This forum has to make a decision whether we welcome all opinions or just some opinions.
If you are correct in your theories, you should have no hesitation in supporting them rather than getting defensive and attacking anyone who dared to question you.
There is just as many people here that question your theories as there is people who think they are revolutionary. BACK YOUR POSITION rather than making this personal.
Rich: "I am once again getting phone calls and E-mails from members wanting to discuss calling and howling privately because they don't want to run the same tired guantlet on the board."
How ironic, I am getting phone calls and emails from people that appreciate the fact that someone calls these theories into question to seperate the wheat of truth from the chaff of rhetoric.
Rich: "You will not discourage this man."
This is such bullshift! My questions are not meant to disourage, THEY ARE MEANT TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK WHETHER OR NOT WHAT THEY THINK THEY SEE IS ACTUALLY WHAT THEY SEE.
Rich: "Lighten up Wiley. You're creating an atmoshere that is unpleasant enough to discourage others from contributing."
Lighten up Rich. You and pup are the ones that are getting so defensive over a few questions simply because you perceive some motivation from me that doesn't even exist.
Now if you are ready to go back to discussing your coyote vocalization theories, lets get with it or would you feel more comfortable just believing that you know something revolutionary?
You don't have the high ground here Rich. I have just as much right to question as you have to theorize.
Try to have a nice day despite your perception for my motive.
~SH~
[ February 19, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 19, 2003, 09:20 AM:
Wiley E-
Two Eyes , Two ears, One mouth.
Sometimes learning requires the closing of the mouth and the opening of the ears and eyes.
I very much disliked my granddaddy telling me this while he was taking away my rabbit distress call and making me learn how to lip squeak one in.
later pup
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 19, 2003, 11:02 AM:
pup: "Sometimes learning requires the closing of the mouth and the opening of the ears and eyes."
Quite a statement coming from someone who considers themselves a pup!
~SH~
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 19, 2003, 11:24 AM:
How do you like my post name. I had a high school football coach that would refer to us as pup. "Pup, get in there and hit someboody so hard their grandchildren will feel it" The other one that he would say" If you don't bite as a pup you won't bite as a dog."
When started on the boards I thought it would be a good name as I never stated that I new it all. But that I was here to learn.
later pup/ Jim
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 19, 2003, 11:30 AM:
The only bullshit is your behavior. This is not the Inquisition and you are not Torquemada. You strut your bad self around these boards like a WWF wrestler, representing yourself as the ultimate and final authority on all things coyote. As a professional it is a given that you are knowledgeable, but you are not omniscient nor infallible. We disagree on many things. You may be hot shit in S. Dakota, Scott, but in Arizona you're just a warmed over turd. My only personal experience with you is the 2001 PM hunt. the hunter assigned to you for Fri. posted on PM that you slept in because you liked to start when the "sun has a little curve to it". One of the points we disagree on. I had 6 coyotes in front of Paul Wait and Lochi before you got started. I put 16 coyotes in front of my hunters on that hunt. You saw 1 coyote. Zero Sat. and Sun. If you are as good as you say you are on the other two current threads related to this topic you would have known there are alot of coyotes around San Carlos Lake. Why didn't you just walk a little way out on the lake and call the coyotes onto the shore. I know a few callers that do that from a boat. It works well for them. One has to wonder what inadequacies a mild little man in person who is such a pitbull at the keyboard is struggling with. Your obstinence and (please insert the list from your thread here) literally sucks the joy from participating on this board. I am done with engaging you in any discussion. To one and all: if you do a search of my posts on this or any board you will find that I have NEVER represented myself as "innovative", revolutionary", a "mastercaller" or anything other than an enthusiastic student of the coyote. When I stopped killing coyotes and just filmed them, I discovered how much I had been missing regarding their behavior. The video my son and I shoot contains the coyotes reactions to many sounds we present to them. Some of those sounds are various vocalizations. These we share, free of charge, to any and all who share our passion for these fasinating little guys. I talk with many enthusiasts on the phone and via E-mail and we discuss what we have each experienced howling, what the coyotes are reponding to and why we think they are doing so. Theories, if you will. Any of you who have E-mailed Scott with questions about me and what I have come to believe from what I observe, are invited to E-mail me with your questions and I will be delighted to talk howling and coyotes with you also. But be forewarned, despite what Scott has depicted me as, I have far more questions than answers. I hope that will not disappoint you. Now if you will excuse me, have howlers to market and sell, books on howling to write, and commercial videos to produce. Ka-Ching. HEH, HEH, HEH. To anyone with comprhension impairment, that was just a joke. (edit: was just informed the number was 1 not 4)
[ February 19, 2003, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 19, 2003, 01:56 PM:
Now it's finally coming to the surface.
Let it all out Rich Higgins!
Rich: "You strut your bad self around these boards like a WWF wrestler, representing yourself as the ultimate and final authority on all things coyote."
Feel better Rich!
Who would think that posing questions could create such a defensive reaction?
Rich: "As a professional it is a given that you are knowledgeable, but you are not omniscient nor infallible."
Thank you for pointing that out!
Rich: "may be hot shit in S. Dakota, Scott, but in Arizona you're just a warmed over turd."
LMAO! A warmed over turd huh? OK!
My, such hostility! LOL!
Rich: "I had 6 coyotes in front of Paul Wait and Lochi before you got started. I put 16 coyotes in front of my hunters on that hunt. You saw 1 coyote. Zero Sat. and Sun."
Ah....there it is!
Just the simple fact that you feel the need to point this out says more than I could ever write.
Rich, if this will help, "you are a better caller than I am". Ok?
There!
Now in regards to the rest of the statement, it pays to know the area doesn't it?
Let me tell you a little about the Globe hunt Rich.
First, I had never been there before.
Second, my partner had a severe foot problem and could barely walk so we couldn't travel far from the road.
Third, this was not a contest or an evaluation in calling, it was supposed to be a fun hunt which it was. At least I thought it was.
Fourth, In regards to the hunt, we were hunting a forested area in the mountains. I wanted to enjoy the scenery as much as the hunt. I didn't feel the need to have to kill coyotes in Arizona nor did I ever realize I would be evaluated on my performance.
Craig Hamilton was calling in the same area and had the same luck. We did see coyotes but they would not come to the calls on this particular day. They would answer but they wouldn't come. I even snuck up on some coyotes and called and they weren't having. So you were wrong on your report of my only seeing one coyote in three days. We saw coyotes the first two days and heard coyotes the third day.
Now if you think that this means that I don't know how to call coyotes in Arizone, go ahead and think that as it speaks volumes about your experience.
BTW, when I am in a contest, I utilize all light. When I am just having fun, I like to have enough light to enjoy the scenery.
I am so glad for this response from you as this is all starting to make sense to me now.
Fifth, I drove all the way to Arizona to meet some of the guys and gave a presentation at the seminar on many of the things I have learned about calling over the years. I have received many comments from those who appreciated my presentation. I suppose you think I just did this to be noticed right?
That's what I thought!
This situation reminds me of a Carly Simon song.
Well I certainly learned a valuable lesson here.
Rich: "If you are as good as you say you are on the other two current threads related to this topic you would have known there are alot of coyotes around San Carlos Lake."
How would I know that? I had never been there before. I didn't have time to scout the area and I didn't have time to locate the coyotes and I wasn't there for a contest. I was there to have fun.
Rich: "One has to wonder what inadequacies a mild little man in person who is such a pitbull at the keyboard is struggling with."
My sentiments exactly!
Rich: "To one and all: if you do a search of my posts on this or any board you will find that I have NEVER represented myself as "innovative", revolutionary", a "mastercaller" or anything other than an enthusiastic student of the coyote."
If you do a search, you will not find that anyone ever said that you represented yourself as "innovate", "revolutionary", or a "master caller", or anything other than an enthusiastic student of the coyote.
They will just see how you have become so defense over a few questions that you felt the need to tell everyone how you called more coyotes in Globe than I did. LOL! Amazing!
Why would an enthusiastic student of the coyote be so defensive about a few questions posing the relevance of your observations? What am I missing here?
Rich: "When I stopped killing coyotes and just filmed them, I discovered how much I had been missing regarding their behavior."
That's great! I am just asking how those observations are relevant to calling success.
Rich: "But be forewarned, despite what Scott has depicted me as, I have far more questions than answers."
It's not how I depicted you, it's how you have depicted yourself with your defensiveness and your need to run me down as opposed to answering some simple questions.
I really don't get it!
I went back through the challenge howl thread and tried to see what created all the defensiveness and I couldn't find it. This post helps explain some things.
Best of luck to you Rich. I'll leave you in peace.
God help the next guy that questions your theories.
~SH~
[ February 19, 2003, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 19, 2003, 04:03 PM:
Oh,... it was the scenery. I'll have to remember that for all those days I come home empty handed and guys asked me how I did. Did? None, but the scenery was nice. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Kinda like that butt ugly girl you get set up with in high school. So damned ugly that you can only stand to look at her with one eye at a time. But she sure is a nice girl! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Three days and forty-something posts, and the place is up in arms because Wiley's back. God, I get so tired of this. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
How long before you're cordially invited to leave this board like so many others before? And for the same reason. Neurotic behavior is defined as performing the same action repeatedly, expecting different results each time. Guess I'll go hunting for someplace else to hang my hat online.
And BTW, not to slander the man's memory, but I had the chance to meet Bill first-hand as well. The man knew coyotes, I'll give him that, but he knew a bottle, too. The man was three sheets gone from the time he fell out of his pickup on Friday afternoon until he swaggered out of town Sunday night. He may know how to call a coyote, but I sure wasn't impressed enough to keep dropping his name every chance I get. The fact that you hunted under his tutilage means nothing more than that you were able to get on his schedule for teaching. Enough, already. It was nice when you weren't here, SH. Just my .02.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 19, 2003, 05:00 PM:
Cdog911: "How long before you're cordially invited to leave this board like so many others before?"
Cdog911: "It was nice when you weren't here, SH"
All you had to do is ask!
Good hunting Cdog911, whoever you are!
Enjoy yourselves!
~SH~
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 19, 2003, 09:01 PM:
This is extremely distressing.
I have a lot of respect and admiration for Rich Higgins. He goes the last mile, very generous and helpful. More reserved than a lot of callers, and completely unselfish with the animals.
Wiley E. He has a lot of concentrated experience, ADC control airplanes trapping, almost a full time job, as near as I can determine? Has been howling for a very long time and yet seems unsure of what he is saying with his howl. Just as long as they approach, does it matter?
Cdog, he's made quite a name for himself as a writer, avid hunter, a lot of experience in his own right, very friendly, participates on many Boards. We are fortunate to have him, and I count him as a friend, although I haven't had the pleasure of meeting face to face as I have with Scott and Rich. Cdog, I know you want to defend your friend but it wasn't nice to suggest that Scott leave Huntmasters. I reserve that particular responsibility for myself, and exercise it with great restraint.
Damn, I wish you guys could patch things up, as a personal favor. You fellas are good people, this is a community of soul mates. As that wise man said: "Can't we all just get along?" Rodney King.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 19, 2003, 11:00 PM:
Leonard,
Don't forget that it took five policemen beating him on the head with a stick before he wised up!!!
Some of us learn more slowly than others. lol
Speaking of which can somebody e-mail me the Cliff notes version of this? Some of those quotes got to bein' quoted many many times... I'm starting to understand why you turned that feature off now....
Jeff 
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 20, 2003, 07:14 AM:
Cdog911: "The man was three sheets gone from the time he fell out of his pickup on Friday afternoon until he swaggered out of town Sunday night. He may know how to call a coyote, but I sure wasn't impressed enough to keep dropping his name every chance I get."
You are correct Lance, this is the part of Bill that a lot of us would like to forget about. Even his friends couldn't save him and his drinking problem eventually killed him. It hurt like hell to watch a mentor of mine literally stumble through a demo. A lot of us wanted to help.
Since we all know talk is cheap, I prefer to remember what I saw and heard when I was with him rather than what it was that finally killed him. What a person choses to rememeber says a lot about them.
Does this make Bill Austin the almighty coyote vocalization king as "the insecure" would profess?
HARDLY, he is just one of many good callers. He just happened to be the one that taught me a lot. Dave Nelson, Merril Nelson, DeLyle Rowley, Louis Smith, and many others taught me a lot about calling as well. But those names don't mean much to most guys.
Nobody taught me more than the coyotes themselves.
Quote: "Lessons in humility will not be taught by coyote hunters, lessons in humility will be taught by the coyotes themselves"
Write it down!
Have a nice day Lance!
Keep writing, you are a gifted writer!
Someday I hope you can appreciate those who challenge people to think! I know I do!
Happy trails!
BTW, I hope you get over your obsession with ugly girls because you used that one before.
~SH~
[ February 20, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 20, 2003, 12:24 PM:
Dittos Leonard, I'd hate to see anyone here get the boot, or leave the room because of a disagreement with another member. We're all big boys, and have been rubbed wrong before, but hell, dust off and move along. We've beat this vocalization thing to death, and nobody has really changed their mind to the complexities, or lack of them, concerning howling. Perhaps a dialog from each camp explaining exactly what they do on stand, the howl, how it is made,voice or mechanical,duration, what it is followed with, and the expected results. This could be done without fear or suspicion of a rebuff or scrutinization by the opposing point of view? Admittedly, to much space is taken up here attacking or defending an opinion or technique. Ya'all just stick around.
Posted by Silverfox (Member # 118) on February 20, 2003, 09:04 PM:
Can't you all just kiss and make up and get back to helping one another instead of trying to pick each other apart?
Come on fellows let's give each other a big smooch and let's make up!
[ February 20, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Silverfox ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 21, 2003, 05:17 AM:
Silverfox, I'm glad you found this board. You are a welcome edition. You obviously haven't seen Scott or you wouldn't be asking anyone to kiss him. He kinda looks like the picture you posted. (you have mail)
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 21, 2003, 05:44 AM:
RH: "You obviously haven't seen Scott or you wouldn't be asking anyone to kiss him. He kinda looks like the picture you posted."
Certainly can't argue that!
(you have mail)?
~SH~
Posted by Chubby Johnson (Member # 128) on February 21, 2003, 07:45 AM:
Hi I am new. I am also confused.
Are you fellas all friends or not ? If you are not why are you so bitter to all of each other. It does not seem right if that is the case.
Maybe there should be a list made of who is on who else team to make these more clear if you are not all friends. I would have thought you were all friends.
Thanks.
Posted by WolverineAtWork (Member # 23) on February 21, 2003, 08:00 AM:
Oh come now.. nobody's got anything against Wiley.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2003, 04:25 PM:
Chubby, it's not as bad as you may think. This Board is made up of folks that are stricken with the fever. That doesn't mean we are all chums, yet. A friendly dialogue is desirable, but some of it is playful banter and then there is the occasional shot. Believe it or not, the climate here has been a lot more civil until just lately, but it's going to turn around.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 21, 2003, 05:58 PM:
Yeah Wiley, Silverfox and I are exchanging videos and blonde jokes thus the (you have mail). I'm going to forward some over to you. (now you have mail)
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 21, 2003, 08:19 PM:
Chubby, it is the tradition of this board to beat up on new guys, but since we haven't had any for awhile we turned on each other. Man, we sure are glad to see you.
Posted by Silverfox (Member # 118) on February 21, 2003, 09:36 PM:
Thanks for the welcome Rich. I received your e-mail.
New guys get picked on huh! Chubby, you have 4 posts already and I only had 1 up to this point so I guess I am the "new guy" on this board and you are off the hook for getting picked on. So, if anyone wants to pick on me, now's the time. I don't have any flame-proof suits to throw on, so I'll probably just lurk here until I get my flame-immunity built up.
In the meantime, if the picture of that pretty girl I posted wasn't to your liking, maybe this handsome gentleman might make you want to pucker up and make friends.
[ February 22, 2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Silverfox ]
Posted by moses man (Member # 76) on February 21, 2003, 10:07 PM:
I am a man of few words. (right on Mr. Higgins).
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 21, 2003, 11:16 PM:
That's too bad Jerry, because you are a wealth of information.
And sometimes your brevity comes off as gruffness... even though those of us who know you, know you're the nicest of dudes. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But I understand your time is limited, and you work really hard... and just maybe you'd like to enjoy your time at the lil' screen travelling 'round the world too, huh? ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
I was actually stoked when I saw you'd replied to this... I wanted to see what you had to say...
Jeff
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 22, 2003, 03:37 AM:
I am very interested in this vocalization topic. I have only had one experience when I howled while a coyote was visible. That coyote came a running, tail first. Since then I have been reluctant to use my howler for anything but a locator.
Names have been given to the different howls. This is good, so we can use these names to describe the sounds we made, thought we made or heard. The names given to each howl is irrelevant, as long as each of us associates the same sounds to the same name. Both sides agree that we will never know if the coyote perceives the howl to mean what we think it dose. I am only familiar with the howls described and demonstrated by Dr. Ed Sceery in his video Howling for Coyotes. Even Ed Sceery says, I believe this howl to mean, yada yada yada, and this is why, and it is effective because I have experienced this response. Dr. Sceery also mentioned in the video that he had identified 90 something distinct coyote vocalizations, but only covered four or five that he thought relevant to calling, based on his studies. What do the other identified vocalizations mean, more questions than answers. Pup is determined to find the answers. He may not have them now but he is testing theory.
It was mentioned (more than once) that a coyote was witnessed making what was perceived by the author as a warning bark howl (or similar to it) and the family members came a runnin’. Am I the only one who found that to be interesting? If Ed Sceery hears what he interprets to be a warning bark howl he packs up and goes at least five miles down the road. I realize to analyze this situation would be pure speculation, and raise more questions than answers. Pup has vowed to find some answers and given enough time, I believe he will.
A hypothetical situation has been raised. I have a coyote at 125 yards; he is facing me with his head cocked to one side. If I have my 22-250, according to everything I have read thus far, I better start squeezing the trigger. If I have my shotgun from what I have learned so far I better make more sounds like the ones that got him there in the first place.
Pup, My emotions are usually pretty close to the surface. The first post that I read in my thread about my “honey holes” being treaded upon that even leaned towards disagreement was posted by guess who, yup, Wiley E. Although he didn’t quote me directly I took what he said a little personally. I took a smoke break and came back and re-read his post. My second interpretation of what he posted is basically like this, “you spoiled brat, if the coyotes are there, I can call them, if I can call them, then you can call them, now quit your whining and get out there and figure it out” These are not his actual words but I think I’m pretty close to what he meant. I could take this statement either way, a personal attack, (if I got hung up on the spoiled brat part) or as a motivator. I recommend that you take a road trip, take a couple of days off from the computer, play with your calls and camera, then re-read what Wiley E. has posted, stop reading when you start getting upset, take a while to calm down, and go back to it. Look at his statements as suggestions rather than commands or criticisms. He has laid everything that he would do to accomplish your goals out there, with reasons why he would do it that way. What you do with it is up to you. As for me I’m going to be on the edge of the wash that has yielded fur every year for the past 4, I hope to make it five.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2003, 08:23 AM:
Bryan J.,
I can't even remember responding to your post. Hahaha! Seriously, I can't.
Excellent objective post BTW!
You are correct about naming the vocalizations but the problem I see is that everybody wants to name the same vocalizations with a different name.
I prefer "lone howl", which as Ed Sceery says is a flat howl. I also recognize, as he does, a "challenge howl" which is usually more short and abrubt and may or may not be combined with barks. Although I do question the importance of the challenge howl in comparison with a simple lone howl FOR MOST SITUATIONS.
I do like Ed Sceery's terminology for the most part.
You are absolutely correct about Ed's stating what "WE THINK" coyotes are saying......
The words "what we think" said more to me about Ed Sceery's experience than anything else in that video. That is another reason why I believe it is such a good tape on BASIC vocalizations that people need to know and hear. Ed's already been there, done that and now he's back to the basics again. He also knows enough about coyotes to realize that there is a lot we don't know about them. I couldn't agree with him more on that!
Ed and I have had our disagreements but I have nothing but respect for the man's calls and instructions. They mold perfectly with my experiences.
Your experience involving howling and the coyote running away made me chuckle. I chucled because it's happened to me before too. If that is your first experience with howling, that isn't a very good experience. My bet is that you were too close and scared him. Had he been a ways away and you tried howling and distress calling, he PROBABLY would have came in slow and reserved.
On the other hand, you will have some coyotes that are simply afraid of getting their butts kicked from another coyote. Once again every coyote has a varying level of curiousity and a varying level of caution based on their previous experiences in life. No two act the same.
This reminds me of a story. A good friend of mine snuck up on a pair of howling coyotes. Pretty soon another lone coyote came in from a different direction. When the pair spotted the coyote they ran down and literally kicked his ass. The dispersal coyote was laying on it's back pissing all over itself. The pair wandered off and layed down. The minute the gypsy, nomad, yearling, dispersor, loner, or whatever we want to call it tried to make a break, the pair ran over and kicked his ass again. The loner laid there until the pair finally wandered off and he headed for parts unknown.
Now consider that you may have been the next caller to blow the howler at him. LOL! Get my point?
In order to sort out coyote reactions, we have to consider the age of each coyote that responds. Adults will respond more readily than yearlings. A coyote is a coyote from the standpoint of their basic survival instincts but not from the standpoint of their behavior. They adapt their behavior to fit their environment.
Also consider that a howl is not a howl is not a howl. We all sound differently and I have no idea what yours sounded like that repelled this coyote. The sound probably didn't have anything to do with the reaction but it may have.
What bothers me, is that most guys that had your experience with howling would blame themselves and I am here to reassure you that the reaction may have had absolutely nothing to do with the howl you gave.
For the highest killing percentages, combining howling and distress calls, as many of us do, will usually appeal to the highest percentage of coyotes. There will always be exceptions.
Good hunting to you!
~SH~
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2003, 08:38 AM:
Almost forgot, on the subject of warning barks, I agree with Ed in that in most situations DURING THE FUR SEASON, a warning bark is usually a coyote that has spotted or smelled you. I usually move on to greener pastures as well.
It's USUALLY difficult to call coyotes in the area once a coyote starts warning barking because I BELIEVE it lets other coyotes know that something is wrong. Again there is always exceptions. In MOST cases it's time to move on or try to sneak up and get a shot at the loudmouth.
We also MAY HAVE a conflict in terminology here. Usually the more abrupt and sharp the barks, the more of a warning it is to other coyotes. I think some people confuse a challenging type howl which may be accompanied with a few barks as a warning bark.
IN MY EXPERIENCE, warning barks are much more abrupt and sharp than the barks that accompany a challenge howl and there is usually a lot more of them just as Ed described it.
On the other hand, during denning season which is the peak of the territorial behavior, a warning bark from an adult female will call other members of the family group back to the den.
We can't etch this stuff in stone. No two coyotes act the same in every situation.
Hope this helps!
~SH~
[ February 22, 2003, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2003, 10:04 AM:
You know, Scott? Compared to you and some others, what I do with a howl is a rung down the ladder of importance.
(this is a night scenario)
For instance, if I get a warning bark as a reply to distress sounds, I feel the same as you about breaking off the stand, they aren't coming in unless I invest way more time and effort that is best put into a new stand, down the road.
At night, interrogation, lone howl, female solicitation, and a lot of other descriptive labels generally mean the same thing to me, as long as they are in response to your stand. They mean that the coyote or group is aware of you, and it is better to completely leave the area.
(this is mainly daylight hunting that I was thinking about)
Sometimes you can drive around the corner and they can't figure it out. Good for you. But don't count on it, unless the circumstances are perfect.
(this is also a night hunting scenario)
One thing I don't like to do is exchange howls I don't understand with coyotes that are hung up a half a mile away. When I have invested the time in this, it is generally unproductive as they will howl back as often as you do; a "Mexican Standoff" as it were?
(this is an attitude about daylight stands)
My theory is very loose, but I want a coyote to shut up and approach in response to my howl. If they respond with howls that I can't be sure what they mean, it's not a good thing. I feel way more confident if a coyote goes silent, in answer to my howl(s).
(this is also daylights, when I would bother in the middle of a slow day)
However, born out of frustration, I have screwed with coyotes by using every variation I can manage, when dealing with coyotes that are aware of my presence. Sometimes, this produces a response that is agressive and unexpected. Mostly, it doesn't.
There is room for a lot of interpretation, that's for sure.
(this is when night hunting, I will go after a coyote in the daytime)
One thing that you do that I do not do, is go after them, unless I'm headed in that direction, anyway. In my scheme of things, it wastes too much time, there are more coyotes down the road and I don't like to get that far from the truck.
I have moved fifty miles, in the middle of the night just because the coyotes are howling at me on every stand. They seem to relay the message, and I take measures to break it off.
(I understand what you are saying but am applying your comments refering to day hunting, to my night hunting experiences)
I completely understand your statement about the phenomena and the solution. Sometimes, you just have to cut your loses.
Good hunting. LB
[ February 22, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2003, 07:00 PM:
Leonard,
Could you do me a favor? Your last post are you referring to night or day calling?
It would really help clear things up if we specified night hunting since most of us are thinking in terms of day hunting.
Night hunting is a different animal that I am not as familiar with as you are.
Point taken?
~SH~
Posted by moses man (Member # 76) on February 22, 2003, 07:25 PM:
Howling is and will always be a win some loose some situation for me . One day always comes to mind when the subject of warning barks comes up . Curt and i were out calling . One one stand we recieved a warning bark from a female .Rather then leaving we started throwing a warning right back . Curt was up the hill from me and a lil up wind if i remember right. This went on and on for some time. we double teamed her on the howlers , and possibly it confused this old bitch coyote , but she eventually came in behind me , and Curt was able to drill her at about 30 yrds with his 22-250 . This was sompthing i always understood to be an imposible task . That day sent thoughts thru my head that nothing is ever impossible when it comes to howling and coyotes . And that nothing is carved in stone as well . I think we can disect this subject to death , but when it comes down to real world results, you just have to go with gut instincts.If the coyote population had a clue about us and our desire to learn the coyote language, they would probably have the time of their lives inventing new sounds to confuse us with . Oh wait , they have already done that .
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2003, 08:01 PM:
Scott, I did some editing to my post above so it is easier to follow. I have to relate everything to my own experience, abstract can get you in trouble. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 23, 2003, 08:46 AM:
Silverfox, posting a picture of Wiley was funny, but posting one of me is going too far.
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 23, 2003, 01:00 PM:
In the last few days I have re-evaluated that scenario many times, the thought that I may have been too close had not occurred to me, I was about 400 yards away. In your experience how close is too close?
We had spotted the coyote from the road, he was in a hay-field hunting mice. My partner wanted to hide the truck, and belly crawl to the fence and dispatch him. I wanted to take the opportunity to learn something. We hid the truck and belly crawled to a point that the coyote was visible. I began with rabbit distress sounds. The coyote raised his head, looked in our direction, and went back to hunting mice. I repeated this until I realized that he wasn’t going to come. Then I gave him a lone howl and he turned tail.
Until now, I have been of the opinion that my howl repels coyotes, the same howl is effective in locating coyotes. I am surprised I hadn’t noticed that major conflict until I just wrote it.
Now I am lead to believe that the coyote may not have been interested in the distress sounds because he had as many mice as he desired close to him. His response to the howl could have been based on a bias that I created with the distress sounds, or the coyote has had a negative experience in similar situations. I will never know for a certainty. I am willing to except that fact.
A note of clarification for Wiley E; You stated that you didn’t remember responding to any of my posts. You didn’t respond directly to my post, you simply commented in a thread that I had started.
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 23, 2003, 02:04 PM:
I forgot,
Wiley E. ...Thanks for the compliment on the post, as you can see by the time stamp that I spent alot of time puting it together.
Is there a vidio in that group you mentioned that might be more helpful than others? If you were on a budget which ones would you buy first?
Thank you!
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 23, 2003, 02:11 PM:
Bryan J,
I don't think that you were too close. You mentioned crawling over to a fence after hiding the truck. Were you along a heavily used public road? Since he didn't spook when you blew distress screams, I don't think the road was your problem anyway but sometimes it can be hard to call em toward a road here in Iowa. The coyote in your story being all alone out there during mating season makes me wonder if it was a young male who had recently gotten his butt kicked. If so, then maybe that is why he ran from your howl? I don't know, but I wouldn't let the one incident stop me from howling. Keep your powder dry, and your face into the breeze.
Rich
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 23, 2003, 02:24 PM:
Yes Rich we were near a fairly well used road. I'm sorry if I led you to belive that this happend recently. It was in mid or late October but he still may have had the same experiance.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 23, 2003, 04:06 PM:
Brian J: "Is there a vidio in that group you mentioned that might be more helpful than others? If you were on a budget which ones would you buy first?"
1. Howling for Coyotes - Complete Instructions for locating and calling coyotes.
2. Randy Anderson's first video
~SH~
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 23, 2003, 09:24 PM:
Thank you Wiley E.I apreciate it.
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 24, 2003, 09:40 AM:
Bryan j-
Huh??? What went on over three posts , between Wiley E. and myself, to me, was not a learning environment. On top of that when it did get to a learnable level to me, he quit. I can't speak for you , but I wasn't whinning about somebody I asked a question and was attacked with questions on my knowledge level, not asked in a decent manner. If I was face to face with him, perhaps I could of given him the benifit of a doubt being able to read his body language; however, we were not and he knew that and still continued in the same demeaning manor, even though he knew communication was not taking place.
I am not in the habit of wasting peoples time.
Thanks for your help,
later pup
[ February 24, 2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: pup ]
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 24, 2003, 10:28 PM:
First of all, I feel I should clear the air. In rereading my post I noticed that I may have led some to believe that Wiley E, called me a spoiled brat, which simply is not true. I took my interpretation of what he said and exaggerated a little to make a point. “Spoiled brat” is my term, not his. This was an error in judgment on my part. In my opinion he didn’t imply such a thing. I read it in. My sincere and humble apologies are on the table, please except them.
Pup: I have no Idea how to respond to that post. I feel there is a lot of usable information in these two threads that can be gleaned for practical use from many sources.
Posted by Bud (Member # 4) on February 28, 2003, 01:39 PM:
Hi Guys,
At this point in time, mine is the last post in this thread. There is no way That I would presume to add anything concerning 'Howling'. I'm in a learning mode.
I will, however, make claim to semi-expert status in recognizing 'warning' and 'challenge' barks between predator hunters.
Lordy lord, fellas, I actually read all three pages.
I'm going to stick around and continue learning. I only hope that this is not just a breather. I don't think I can do a fourth page.
Good hunting.
Bud
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