|
Author
|
Topic: Howling Interpretation Objectivity
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted February 18, 2003 08:46 AM
If someone really wants to take howling to a higher level of understanding, here's how to do it.
Those of you who collect calling videos and have access to both the E.L.K. "doggin coyotes" series of videos, Randy Andersons videos, and Ed Sceery's instructional videos, try this.
Study those howls, consider the circumstances, consider the time of day, consider the time of year, and compare the coyote reactions.
See if you can detect any patterns.
Many times you will see coyotes responding to the dogs and totally oblivious to the sounds that are being made at that point. A coyote that is standing there with his head cocked listening to your sounds tells you nothing.
A coyote that is approaching a certain sound tells you something. A coyote that comes to a call after the shot REALLY TELLS YOU SOMETHING.
I challenge you to show me someone who can duplicate the difference between a warning bark from a coyote that has busted you in the winter and a warning bark of a coyote pair on the den in the spring. One warns coyotes and one attracts coyotes. SHOW ME THE DIFFERENCE.
Keep in mind the "potential" age of these coyotes in your research.
To really take this to a scientific level if some of you are so inclined, here's how to do it. Tape those sounds and record the decibals and compare them. Then imitate them with your howler, record that sound until the graphs are the same.
Will that improve your luck in howling?
Probably not but it will give you a better understanding of coyote vocalizations if that is really your goal.
I'm not trying to be smart here either. If someone truly took coyote vocalizations to this level, I would pay attention as it would have merit TO BETTER UNDERSTANDING rather than application.
I don't know how volume and distance are going to play into the recordings but maybe graphs would show the differences between the howls that sound the same to you and I but elicit different reactions from coyotes.
I enjoy learning but I will continue to question the application as I haven't found any coyotes that can't be called within a given week with a handful of sounds.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 18, 2003 09:35 AM
Why was the coyote just looking at you with his head cocked? What did that tell you? What did you do to that response? Did you just lip squeak until you got him in range and then let a round fly or did you try a distinct howl that you have learned , with the proper inflection and tone.
Do you have some video footage to discredit that the attraction is just because and has nothing to do with a particular sound. Do you have some of your own footage to disprove the discernability of what we are portraying in our howls. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
If you are going to drive then drive, if not then sit in the back seat and hush. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Maybe just maybe when we get it figured out and we will , We'll let you in on it, When you open your mind and attend the seminar.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted February 18, 2003 10:58 AM
Gosh pup, you seem awful defensive, why is that?
Isn't questioning part of learning?
Don't just make statements in response to my posts, show me the error in my ways by backing your position with facts.
pup: "Why was the coyote just looking at you with his head cocked?"
Because he came as far as wanted to come and was looking at the source of the sound. Do you have a better explanation?
While he stands there and you blow all kinds of new sounds at him some of which make him look your way and some of which don't, did you learn something that will make you a better caller?
When he finally does leave, was it because he was ready to leave anyway or was it the sound you were making at the time that made him leave?
If he comes back, is it because he is still curious about what attracted him in the first place or is it because of the different sound you just made?
Don't you think these questions have validity?
You cannot remove the bias in their reactions from what attracted them to you in the first place.
THE FATAL ATTRACTION!
pup: "What did that tell you?"
That he came to the call, that he came as far as he wanted because now he could see the source of the sound, that he didn't know what the heck to do, and that he really didn't have anything better to do than stand there with his head cocked. That's what it told me.
What would it tell you?
pup: "What did you do to that response?"
Take a dip of chew and wonder if this particular coyote realizes that it is about to die.
pup: "Did you just lip squeak until you got him in range and then let a round fly or did you try a distinct howl that you have learned , with the proper inflection and tone."
I can remember one time when I gave out the most perfect howl that I have ever given. I assume it had the proper inflection and tone because I have called so many other coyotes with it over the years and at least had them answer even when they didn't want to come. You know what that coyote did next? You guessed it, he cocked his head and just stood there wondering how that coyote could possibly be so fat and ugly.
pup: "Do you have some video footage to discredit that the attraction is just because and has nothing to do with a particular sound. Do you have some of your own footage to disprove the discernability of what we are portraying in our howls."
Which attraction?
The initial response when the coyote howled back?
The approach to the stand?
Or the head cock instead of bolting and running?
I am assuming you mean the head cock.
I don't need video footage to have observed literally thousands of coyotes within close range of calling. I have toyed with many of them with different sounds but I didn't learn much because their response was biased.
How was their response biased?
They could now see the source of the sound. When they approached, they couldn't.
I have no idea what they think of this fat ugly camo blob making strange noises at them because it's usually unnatural for a coyote to see a fat ugly camo blob making noises at them that they are attracted to.
By the way, what is the discernability of what you are portraying with your howls once you have a coyote standing there looking at a blob of camo making sounds that they are attracted to?
As Ross Perot would say, "I'm all ears".
pup: "If you are going to drive then drive, if not then sit in the back seat and hush."
Hush? Geeeeeez, I'm just asking questions trying to learn something here. Lighten up!
I thought you were going to teach me how to drive. Teach me what those head cocked close range coyotes are telling you.
pup: "Maybe just maybe when we get it figured out and we will, We'll let you in on it, When you open your mind and attend the seminar."
LOL! Pup, how long have you been calling just out of curiosity?
As far as opening my mind, let me tell you somthing that I have learned about coyotes over 30 years of calling and 20 years of howling.
"The more I learn about coyotes, the more I realize how little I actually know about them."
Now what do ya think of that?
Does that sound like a narrow minded statement based on many years of experience?
Attend the seminar huh? Is there a cost?
Let me give you one guarantee pup, you will never, I REPEAT NEVER, figure every coyote out. Forget it because it can't be done.
Every coyote is an individual that elicits various behavioral responses based on their natural instincts and their previous experiences.
On the national grasslands near my home, coyotes used to come to the sound of gunfire knowing that dead pr. dogs were waiting for them.
You think you can figure them out better than all the guys that I correspond with that kill them 365 for 20+ years?
No offense but if you truly believe you can figure coyotes out, you are in for a real disappointment!
They didn't expand into the eastern United States during the era of $100 coyotes by being predictable.
Best of luck to you pup!
Again, don't be offended, we're just talking here.
I am more than willing to learn but I have just enough experience and associate with many others with that same level of experience that I feel more than comfortable in questioning anyones theories on coyotes.
One last thing, don't confuse confidence with arrogance. Many people make that mistake. There is a difference.
Have a good one pup!
~SH~
[ February 18, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 18, 2003 12:32 PM
Wiley E-
It is not that you asked the questions it is the manner of tone and inflection and duration and volumn in the way that you ask the questions.
I asked my wife if she was in the mood. I didn't care to hear her true answer, I just asked the question.
It is becoming obiviously clear that you have desimated the coyote population in your area and that you are greatly esteemed by your peers.
The desimation by yourself would explain all the questions that you seem to want to know.
Why did I get defensive? Do I get to be childish and say because you pushed first, or do I get to say that it seems that attracted that response from me, by the way that you inflected your questions and the tone that you set with the duration of your onslaught.
I never said that you had error in your ways. I don't know your ways of calling or life for that matter, and I am fast becoming closed minded to any of them.
Why would you ask me what it told me about the head cocked coyote? It is your scenerio, I wasn't there. You tell me how he reacted when you challenged howled at him. If he just looked at you or what. When I get one that just stops , I'll throw the book at him and I will gladly let you know what happens. Then we can speculate why he loses interest.
Wiley E-"Take a dip of chew and wonder if this particular coyote realizes that it is about to die."
NOw this is the stuff. Can I borrow this line and add it to my next kill scene, as long as I give you credit for it. Man, now that is about the best thing you have ever said.
Wiley E-"I can remember one time when I gave out the most perfect howl that I have ever given. I assume it had the proper inflection and tone because I have called so many other coyotes with it over the years and at least had them answer even when they didn't want to come. You know what that coyote did next? You guessed it, he cocked his head and just stood there wondering how that coyote could possibly be so fat and ugly."
Why did you decide to howl at that particular time ? When he stood there and cocked his head did you get a dip of chew, which by the way you don't get a "dip" of. YOu get a dip of snuff, and you take a chew of tobacco, but who am I to try and share anything with you.
Did you take a dip of chew and wonder if that particular coyote realized that it was about to die?
This passage also brings out the question of why are you getting busted so easily. Are they that close or do we have a break up of outline problem?
The because you said doesn't credit you any. I was hoping for some video footage so all could see.
you then go into the mindless drivel again about how I said that I knew it all , which is a poor attempt to cover up your agenda. Which seems to be Wiley E. knows all.
I never said that I would figure every coyote out, I did say that I would get more of a grasp on their behavior to howls and would get that on video.
Wiley E-"Again, don't be offended, we're just talking here. I am more than willing to learn but I have just enough experience and associate with many others with that same level of experience that I feel more than comfortable in questioning anyones theories on coyotes. One last thing, don't confuse confidence with arrogance. Many people make that mistake. There is a difference."
Blow that smoke up somebody else, I'm not buying it.
The only thing that you have said is that it doens't matter which or what kind of howl you make the coyote isn't necessarily attracted to a particular sound. This is old wives talk, and will be disproved. Don't have it in front of me , but I'm heading in that direction.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 18, 2003 12:43 PM
Sorry Wiley E-
I didn't answer your question on how long I have been calling. But this question is like all of your others not revelant. And this question goes to prove the my point of your bad attitude and want to be god like, because if you had read my post you will find that I have already answered you, in the post you initially started bashing me.
18 yrs.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted February 18, 2003 01:07 PM
Boy this has turned into quite a debate.Pup,you need to learn to take ol'Wiley with a grain of salt he comes across as "the old dominant male coyote" at times but he is a good guy and does have alot of good info to pass on.Don't get me wrong we've had our share of debates right Wiley. But hey,it's all in fun and learning.As far as Howling goes I've been howling for coyotes for a few years now and I tend to agree with Wiley in the fact that simplicity is the key from my experience,I don't see a need to get to complicated in your sequences but that's just my opinion FWIW.GOOD HUNTING Chad....
Posts: 1708 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 18, 2003 01:31 PM
Chad-
I never said that keeping it simple was the wrong approach, I just think that there is more to the art of howling and they will have a distinct response to certain types of howls.
He (Wiley E) has his point of veiw and is sceptical of any others. Which backs up my point of his tendancy to be close to close-minded.
I will learn something from him at some point in time. Right now I am not known by him and it is my turn in the barrel. So be it. Just a little pain in the posterior that some people have to display a "better than thou" behavior.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted February 18, 2003 01:34 PM
pup: "It is becoming obiviously clear that you have desimated the coyote population in your area and that you are greatly esteemed by your peers."
Wrong pup, I have lots of coyotes in this area. My job is not about desimating populations, it's about removing problem individuals.
pup: "Why would you ask me what it told me about the head cocked coyote? It is your scenerio, I wasn't there."
You didn't have to be there, I described it to you. He was standing there within gun range and when I blew the call, he cocked his head to the side. What does that tell you?
pup: "Why did you decide to howl at that particular time?"
To see what he would do. He didn't do anything but stood there looking stupid.
pup: "When he stood there and cocked his head did you get a dip of chew, which by the way you don't get a "dip" of. YOu get a dip of snuff, and you take a chew of tobacco, but who am I to try and share anything with you."
Thanks for the correction! You liked that one huh? Here's another but not very original. I stole it from Marty Robbins.
"the tick of the clock said death would wait 10 seconds more"
How do ya like that one?
pup: "Did you take a dip of chew and wonder if that particular coyote realized that it was about to die?"
Nah, not that time I didn't! I was kinda hoping he would stomp his foot or something. Maybe curl his lip and show his teeth.
pup: "This passage also brings out the question of why are you getting busted so easily. Are they that close or do we have a break up of outline problem?"
Busted? I didn't realize I had been busted. I called him to rifle range but I am sure I probably deal with less cover in most calling situations than you do.
pup: "you then go into the mindless drivel again about how I said that I knew it all , which is a poor attempt to cover up your agenda. Which seems to be Wiley E. knows all."
Pup, you're getting a little paranoid. I never said you thought you knew it all because nobody knows it all and I certainly know better than to think that I know it all.
pup: "I never said that I would figure every coyote out, I did say that I would get more of a grasp on their behavior to howls and would get that on video."
Wonderful! I hope it helps with the interpretation as well.
pup: "The only thing that you have said is that it doens't matter which or what kind of howl you make the coyote isn't necessarily attracted to a particular sound. This is old wives talk, and will be disproved. Don't have it in front of me , but I'm heading in that direction."
Pup, my posts are still there. Show me where I said that "it doesn't matter which or what kind of howl you make, the coyote isn't necessarily attracted to a particular sound".
Show me where i said that pup!
I never said that and anybody that can read knows I never said that. Of course the particular sounds matters, after all, that's what called them in the first place wasn't it? I am simply questioning whether a lone howl is more or less attractive than any other howl.
Have a nice day pup!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted February 18, 2003 01:37 PM
Wiley E can get a little huffy now and then alright, but I will tell you guys something that I hope you will think about for awhile. Wiley E knows what he is talking about. I have been calling coyotes for many years. I spent a couple of days watching Wiley E work coyotes awhile back and I say again, The guy knows coyotes. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted February 18, 2003 01:37 PM
pup: "Just a little pain in the posterior that some people have to display a "better than thou" behavior."
Just a pain in the posterior that some people have to interpret questions as a disply of "better than thou" behavior.
Have a good one pup!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 18, 2003 01:52 PM
As I expected one of the "pards" rides up to the defense.
Welcome to the party Rich#112.
As for what you said which I generalized, MY BAD,
Wiley E-"At the same time, I am not sure a "CHALLENGING TYPE HOWL" has any more attractiveness than ANY OLD HOWL. I've used enough of both for enough years that I believe a strange howl is a strange howl and a strange howl has attraction."
This sounds like a any ol howl will do to me.
And it happened folks we agreed on the pain in the posterior.
later pup/ jim
Oh yeah, Have a nice day Mr. Wiley E.
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted February 18, 2003 02:06 PM
Pup,
I did not say that Wiley E and I were "pards", didn't even say that I liked the man. I have met him, ate lunch with him and hunted with him. He and I even called in a pair of coyotes one night by use of voice howls. Wiley may not know night hunting, but then we were not really hunting when we called that pair up so close we could smell their breath. Those two coyotes evidently didn't realize that neither one of us knew much about calling coyotes at night. Shucks they just came in anyway. Hey pup, I am an old dog myself but I can still learn a new trick. LOL.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 18, 2003 02:11 PM
Sorry to snap at you Rich#112, but I have been cornered by and old dog and I am having trouble getting across because he doesn't believe that I am not just giving him any old howl, but one with a distinct tone and inflection.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted February 18, 2003 03:19 PM
For the sake of argument, allow me to spice the pot a bit. Pup has used the terms "tone" and "inflection" and, undoubtedly, there's probably some merit to those factors in reproducing coyote vocalizations. The $64K question is just how likely is it that we'll ever be able to reproduce an accurate howl that completely dupes the responding coyote? Is it possible to think that over the millenia, as coyotes have evolved to their current state, and as their means of communicating with one another has co-evolved, that possibly the coyote ear has evolved in parallel and it not only is much more acute in hearing than our ears, but that it is specifically adapted to perceive certain tones and inflections, thus explaining the apparant variations in lone howls, everyday ol' howls, and the way they respond to those sounds? Even though we can't figure out what seperates one howl from another, or why the response varied? Numerous bird species have evolved highly acute senses of hearing and their vocalizations at specific times of the year trigger specific responses from others of the same specie. In order to accurately identify and discern one vocalization from another, biologists had to acquire sonographs of the birds. Personally, I think we could learn a lot from employing this level of technology, but before that kind of money would be invested in such a project, there'd have to be some means of justifying the expense. And settling this debate betwqeen pup and Wiley E. probably won't be enough. As far as the cocked head issue... I've had that happen. Wondered why, for a minute. But then, I thought about what would happen if the tables were turned? You're sitting there, calling away, when a coyote walks up to you from behind. Just as you see him, he says, "Hey, Bubba. What's up?" Not exactly the sound you expected to hear, so what do you do? Well, at some point, I'd probably pass out or fill my britches, but somewhere along the line, I'd probably hold my head kinda funny to one side or the other.
And, pup, arguing with Wiley is like rastlin' with a pig. You know the rest.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted February 18, 2003 05:35 PM
Well guys,
I have some mixed feelings regarding coyote language, and I truly believe that every honest coyote man out there has some of those same questions in their mind. Those of us who have spent a lot of time listening to the various yippity yowls and watching coyotes respond to certain sounds, have developed some opinions on the subject. I think that I can usually tell by the tone of a coyote's howl when he is angry and is challenging me to get the heck out of his or her living room. I also believe that I can tell the frustrated barks of a hung-up yote that has me busted, from the angry warning of the yote who is challenging me to a fight. I know that Wiley probably does not agree with me on that point, but does it really matter that much? Gosh if we all agreed on everything it would be a dull world now would it not?
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted February 18, 2003 07:06 PM
I don't know whether I am having difficulty getting my point across or what.
This issue is not whether coyotes have a complex language, or whether coyotes use different howls at different times, or whether an angry bark/howl is different than a challenging bark howl, this issue is about whether or not "interrogation howls", "solicitation howls", "lost mate howls", "threat/bark howls", "assembly howls", "non threatening howls", "challenge howls", and numerous other marketed howls are any more effective in calling coyotes than simply using a realistic sounding lone howl in combination with distress calls.
That's it!
You guys can spin this any way you want but this is the only issue on the table as far as I am concerned.
Why a few simple questions had to lead to so much defensiveness I'll never know!
I am compelled to believe that a lot of the vocalization hype we hear now days is simply based on commercialization by those with something to sell and serves to mislead people.
That's why I am asking the hard questions.
Wonder what happened to Lance, his posts used to sound a lot like pups. Hmmm?? Funny he hasn't joined in on the discussion?
~SH~
[ February 18, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted February 19, 2003 05:25 AM
Wiley,
Hey I do believe we found something that you and I agree on. Your last post is it! I think that you should buy the lunch we celebrate this big breakthrough over. LOL I have been trying to de-bunk the coyote language myth for a couple of years now. I think that we both feel that there is some coyote talk going on among the yotes that humans do not yet understand. What I am trying to do is get the newer callers to not worry so much about what this howl or that really means. No sense in trying to make it harder than it really is. Howling is not rocket science. Howl and they will come. Pretty simple when you stop and think about it.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
GMB
PAKMAN
Member # 109
|
posted February 19, 2003 06:46 AM
I'm 54 years old. I read these posts all the time.To try to learn as much as possible.I have learned in 35 years of calling,that a coyote can teach you more about calling than anyother means. I have learned that people that act like they know it all are the ones that need to learn the most. It is sad, but if you think you know it all you have stopped learning. If you are calling coyotes, keep doing what you are doing. If you are not calling coyotes change something. If you want to learn somthing from this board learn to weed out the BS. Opinions are like some other things everone has one. This is mine; learn from experience it is the best teacher. Then you can sometimes weed out facts that are helpful from BS that will do nothing for you except confuse you. YOUNG CALLERS LEARN THIS. Go out and call write notes as to what works and what does not work. Keep these note, read them often learn from them and when you are older, start some young man out in this sport, tell him how you learned, let him learn from expierience and maybe he won,t learn your mistakes, that you keep making because you think you know it all. You are never too old to learn.
GMB
Posts: 3 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 19, 2003 07:09 AM
wiley E-
You did not start this with your last changed statement which you put in bold. You started in on me because I asked the questioned If I should challenge howl or not. You never asked about my whole set so you could get a good idea about what was going on, you just started in on the logic of
Wiley E-"At the same time, I am not sure a "CHALLENGING TYPE HOWL" has any more attractiveness than ANY OLD HOWL. I've used enough of both for enough years that I believe a strange howl is a strange howl and a strange howl has attraction."
This is what you started with. Then you jumped on whether I had a clue or not on what a core area was.
You want respect , earn a little. A simple "Pup would you please explain your whole stand in detail so that I may make an informed decision on whether on not I should of moved closer to the coyotes, or not.
Which according to your locating theory , I should of done anyway.
So don't try and squirm your way out of this, by changing your statement now. Want you are forgetting is that our conversation is happening over two posts and a person must read them both to see your are questioning, what I think is a way of trying to learn something new not just sit there proclaiming the world is flat.
later pup
[ February 19, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: pup ]
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted February 19, 2003 07:47 AM
Wiley, Rich, et al. It is good that a man know his limitations, it is not good when that man attempts to impose those limitations on others. If you are unable to learn more about a subject, or if you are content with the status quo, or if you just have no desire to learn any more, that is fine. But if you discourage others from studying, experimenting, sharing experiences, and ASKING QUESTIONS of others on this board by cnsistantly asking sarcastic questions of them and making comments designed to ridicule, then it is not fine. It is a disservice to the members of this board. I am once again getting phone calls and E-mails from members wanting to discuss calling and howling privately because they don't want to run the same tired guantlet on the board. Wiley, pup is not Lance. He is Jim McGill, an experienced, successful caller from Ok. He has enough enthusiasm for the sport to make the drive to Az. twice in 4 months. He is applying that same enthusiasm toward learning everything he can about howling. You will not discourage this man. After volume upon volume upon volume of text you have posted regarding howling, it can all be condensed to "use a standard lonehowl followed by prey distress" and " no one knows what coyotes mean". We get it. Time after repetitious time, we get it. Although I do commend you on the variety of ways you are able to say the same thing, still, we get it. You claim to be concerned that SOME are motivated by $$$$$$ and you have apparently appointed yourself guardian shepherd to save us sheep from being sheared by unscrupulous entrepreneurs bent on selling us something that doesn't work, that we don't have enough sense to figure it out for ourselves. You have made yourself the bane of commercialsm. Interesting to me that you make your living from calling. You are paid to call and kill coyotes. The ultimate commercialism. Lighten up Wiley. You're creating an atmoshere that is unpleasant enough to discourage others from contributing.
IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted February 19, 2003 08:56 AM
Rich: "It is good that a man know his limitations, it is not good when that man attempts to impose those limitations on others."
How is questioning the relevance of certain vocalizations, IMPOSING LIMITATIONS?
Explain it Rich!
Rich: "If you are unable to learn more about a subject, or if you are content with the status quo, or if you just have no desire to learn any more, that is fine."
That statement is nothing more than baseless, unfounded speculative SPIN on your part CONCERNING ME!
If I wasn't willing to learn, I WOULDN'T BE HERE.
All this BS is just spin to avoid having to justify your vocalization theories, why not admit it. As long as you can spin this into what my motivations are, you don't have to answer uncomfortable questions and you can just go on believing that you have discovered something revolutionary RATHER THAN PROVING IT.
You may have something here Rich, WHY NOT PROVE IT! What are you so afraid of? If you are so confident that these vocalizations that you have discovered will change calling as we know it, YOU SHOULD WELCOME THE QUESTIONS, not avoid them by attempting to discredit those who question you.
I could just as easily speculate on you. Let's see, I think Rich is just paranoid because he wants everyone to believe that he has discovered some new revolutionary coyote vocalization breakthru that will change calling as we know it. Happy now?
Rich: "But if you discourage others from studying, experimenting, sharing experiences, and ASKING QUESTIONS of others on this board by cnsistantly asking sarcastic questions of them and making comments designed to ridicule, then it is not fine."
Why does asking questions based on quotes constitute discouraging others from studying, experimenting, sharing experiences, and asking questions??
That's just spin to attempt to keep me from questioning your theories.
It's ok to theorize and allow readers to believe that the reason a coyote stops at 55 yards and will come no further is because they are at the end of some imaginary "CORE AREA" rather than having somebody pose the possiblitiy that maybe this coyote knows exactly where that sound came from and is stopped there because thats where he wanted to stop to see where the sound came from.
This forum has to make a decision whether we welcome all opinions or just some opinions.
If you are correct in your theories, you should have no hesitation in supporting them rather than getting defensive and attacking anyone who dared to question you.
There is just as many people here that question your theories as there is people who think they are revolutionary. BACK YOUR POSITION rather than making this personal.
Rich: "I am once again getting phone calls and E-mails from members wanting to discuss calling and howling privately because they don't want to run the same tired guantlet on the board."
How ironic, I am getting phone calls and emails from people that appreciate the fact that someone calls these theories into question to seperate the wheat of truth from the chaff of rhetoric.
Rich: "You will not discourage this man."
This is such bullshift! My questions are not meant to disourage, THEY ARE MEANT TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK WHETHER OR NOT WHAT THEY THINK THEY SEE IS ACTUALLY WHAT THEY SEE.
Rich: "Lighten up Wiley. You're creating an atmoshere that is unpleasant enough to discourage others from contributing."
Lighten up Rich. You and pup are the ones that are getting so defensive over a few questions simply because you perceive some motivation from me that doesn't even exist.
Now if you are ready to go back to discussing your coyote vocalization theories, lets get with it or would you feel more comfortable just believing that you know something revolutionary?
You don't have the high ground here Rich. I have just as much right to question as you have to theorize.
Try to have a nice day despite your perception for my motive.
~SH~
[ February 19, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 19, 2003 09:20 AM
Wiley E-
Two Eyes , Two ears, One mouth.
Sometimes learning requires the closing of the mouth and the opening of the ears and eyes.
I very much disliked my granddaddy telling me this while he was taking away my rabbit distress call and making me learn how to lip squeak one in.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted February 19, 2003 11:02 AM
pup: "Sometimes learning requires the closing of the mouth and the opening of the ears and eyes."
Quite a statement coming from someone who considers themselves a pup!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
|
posted February 19, 2003 11:24 AM
How do you like my post name. I had a high school football coach that would refer to us as pup. "Pup, get in there and hit someboody so hard their grandchildren will feel it" The other one that he would say" If you don't bite as a pup you won't bite as a dog."
When started on the boards I thought it would be a good name as I never stated that I new it all. But that I was here to learn.
later pup/ Jim
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted February 19, 2003 11:30 AM
The only bullshit is your behavior. This is not the Inquisition and you are not Torquemada. You strut your bad self around these boards like a WWF wrestler, representing yourself as the ultimate and final authority on all things coyote. As a professional it is a given that you are knowledgeable, but you are not omniscient nor infallible. We disagree on many things. You may be hot shit in S. Dakota, Scott, but in Arizona you're just a warmed over turd. My only personal experience with you is the 2001 PM hunt. the hunter assigned to you for Fri. posted on PM that you slept in because you liked to start when the "sun has a little curve to it". One of the points we disagree on. I had 6 coyotes in front of Paul Wait and Lochi before you got started. I put 16 coyotes in front of my hunters on that hunt. You saw 1 coyote. Zero Sat. and Sun. If you are as good as you say you are on the other two current threads related to this topic you would have known there are alot of coyotes around San Carlos Lake. Why didn't you just walk a little way out on the lake and call the coyotes onto the shore. I know a few callers that do that from a boat. It works well for them. One has to wonder what inadequacies a mild little man in person who is such a pitbull at the keyboard is struggling with. Your obstinence and (please insert the list from your thread here) literally sucks the joy from participating on this board. I am done with engaging you in any discussion. To one and all: if you do a search of my posts on this or any board you will find that I have NEVER represented myself as "innovative", revolutionary", a "mastercaller" or anything other than an enthusiastic student of the coyote. When I stopped killing coyotes and just filmed them, I discovered how much I had been missing regarding their behavior. The video my son and I shoot contains the coyotes reactions to many sounds we present to them. Some of those sounds are various vocalizations. These we share, free of charge, to any and all who share our passion for these fasinating little guys. I talk with many enthusiasts on the phone and via E-mail and we discuss what we have each experienced howling, what the coyotes are reponding to and why we think they are doing so. Theories, if you will. Any of you who have E-mailed Scott with questions about me and what I have come to believe from what I observe, are invited to E-mail me with your questions and I will be delighted to talk howling and coyotes with you also. But be forewarned, despite what Scott has depicted me as, I have far more questions than answers. I hope that will not disappoint you. Now if you will excuse me, have howlers to market and sell, books on howling to write, and commercial videos to produce. Ka-Ching. HEH, HEH, HEH. To anyone with comprhension impairment, that was just a joke. (edit: was just informed the number was 1 not 4)
[ February 19, 2003, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
