The New Huntmastersbbs!: Can we talk about trapped animals?

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2003, 09:58 AM:

For our trapping members out there.

Let's just say a mistake has been made. It happens, right?

How do you feel about a trap and an animal that has gone missing? Is it a dastardly deed, or part of the price of doing business?

Never trapped, I don't know what the reaction would be to a "tampered" set.

The statute of limitations has expired anyway, but I sort of feel like it was accidental, but now it's my animal? Would that be mistaken? Show me the error of my ways. Let's say I only saw the animal, not the trap.

Honest opinion?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on February 13, 2003, 11:01 AM:

Leonard, this is quite a topic.

Trap theft is a big problem for almost all trappers. I personally have to deal with it a fair bit, and I won't even touch on the guys who longline coon and mink in the midwest.

Personally, I get very angry when I have an $18 trap with a $20 coyote in it go missing. It's part of the business I know, and I do my best to get over it quickly and move on with the rest of the traps I have set, but it still hurts.

I try to avoid theft, setting far off roads, around the hill, behind the high sage/cedar, etc. But it still happens sometimes. And there are times when the best place to catch the animal is within sight of the road. A lot of times for me, in the areas I trap, a coyote in a trap is a pretty sight to the ranchers who see it before I do, but there are all the callers and other "outdoorsman" who feel the need to take all they can, and a coyote in a trap just becomes a special little gift to them.

Even using cable stakes to keep my traps anchored (for my sake, speed, ease, not to mention theft protection) I've had people shoot the cable to steal the trap.

In most states laws prohibit tampering with a trapper's traps and sets. I can understand the situation where you sit down to call and right away there's a coyote standing up pretty close looking at you, so you shoot him and when you go to retrieve he's in a trap. I've done it once myself. What I did was write on a piece of paper at the truck, "Sorry I shot your coyote, I didn't know he was in a trap." And left it rolled up in the chain of the trap, and hoped eagles didn't beat the trapper to the coyote.

So, who does the animal belong too? I strongly believe it's the trapper's. He set the trap, caught the animal, you just beat him to it. It's still his animal, even though you dispatched it for him (God forbid you did it with the gun you hunt deer with).

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2003, 12:08 PM:

I appreciate your response Trevor, and we are speaking candidly of course, so no offense intended or taken.

But, every time it happened to me, it was at night, on a stand, and it was a huge surprise to find out the animal was in a trap.

Secondly, this is BLM land, and consider what happens to a wounded buck that is shot and killed by another hunter, who then claims it. I've seen that happen many times, maybe it's not a fair argument. I don't know trapping protocol and wonder if I'm expected to know?

Third, it seems to me that a set shouldn't be within easy sight of a gravel road, there are a lot more ignorant people driving around than I.

Fourth, motivation. Contest hunt, I "needed" the animal, and didn't even think twice that it might be stealing. Snares are completely different, I think, but this animal was standing there, very much alive and natural. Night time, eyes right there, you need to shoot quick or they are gone.

Anyway, I wouldn't do it intentionally, of course. But does the guy have absolute legal, prosecutable authority, because the trap belongs to him, even though it's government land? Sincerely, I don't know the answer.

Good hunting. LB

PS let's say the guy has unlimited resources, puts out two hundred traps across the road from a feedlot or dump in full public view, on public land and any number of people can see those animals out there. Is he protected, beyond all question? Can someone be arrested for a crime?

Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on February 13, 2003, 12:09 PM:

Shooting by mistake, ok, it was a mistake, taking coyote, hmmm, ok, little rude but it’s better than leaving a cut in half shot gunned carcass in the trap, but you took the trap too?

You took the TRAP!?!

ACK! My dogs will find you.

[Smile]

[ February 13, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2003, 12:13 PM:

No catskin, not really, this is something that is frequently talked about in my organization, which has almost no members that trap. But I know that the trap is taken, sometimes, and sometimes not.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 13, 2003, 02:22 PM:

Well I don't know squat about trapping protcol but to me it's like this... if I work on your house ($ coming in) and you don't pay me ($ lost) that's one thing...
But if you keep "my tools" (Opportunity lost) I can't just shine it on and go work for someone else...

Much the same for the trapper, right or wrong to trap where he does, he's got as much right to "snaggle 'em" off that land as anyone does to shoot 'em, if that's the law.

So someone took his coyote ($ coming in) and they didn't leave a $twenty-spot ($ lost), that's one thing... Don't take dudes "opportunity"...

Just my .0468 cents worth (two cents, after taxes)

Jeff

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2003, 03:24 PM:

Strictly because of lobbying efforts by trappers, nonresidents aren't allowed to hunt bobcat in Nevada, forever. Total waste of a resource, through the good times and the bad times, when they weren't worth the trouble.

This isn't a case of someone robbing a trapline, but I wonder if the trapper understands that what he thinks is concealed, is visible as hell at night?

I answered "not really" as to taking the trap but I did the first time I had it happen to me. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I found it. When I mentioned it to club members, I got the other side of the story. Statute of limitations apply to pilloring the perp, as well. God, it was thirty years ago!

Krusty, I don't know for sure, but these things are supposed to be identified? I think? That one wasn't; a drag that was on a dry lake bed. (of all places) Who knows how far the animal had managed to run. No, I don't feel like I was messing with a man's livelyhood, I rather think he was negligent.

So don't get all sanctimonious on me, dude. [Cool]

It's a minor problem, as it affects callers, and the careful trapper already knows there are thiefs out there. But that guy is not starving because of me, that's for sure. It's a rare occurance, but if you are out long enough, it seems to happen, sooner or later.

By the way, I have killed far more coyotes that were missing a paw, than in a trap.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 13, 2003, 05:33 PM:

I sure didn't mean to sound sanctimonious, I just thought we were hypotheticalizin'... [Big Grin]

I shoulda used "one" instead of "you"...

...wasn't the shoe on the other foot recently... is this déja vu? lol

I only meant that if his "tools of the trade" were where he thought he left them... that's where he should find them... but you now say they might not of been where he'd have found them anyway...

This kind of thing goes on a lot in rockclimbing, a climber will leave some gear on a climb... sometimes amounting to hundreds of dollars, sometimes because their waiting in line, or they have done part of the climb and gone back to the ground for the night, other times their too tired and need a couple days rest before their strong enough to go again... whatever the reason... we have a real easy to follow set of ethics...

If it's not yours... it's not yours.
Nothing can change that.

But we don't often have rock cliffs just get up and walk away with our gear... they are usually right where we expect them to be, right where they were yesterday and for the last two or three million years... not the case with critters and traps though, eh?

That's part of why trapping in Washington has all but been eliminated.

Please forgive my ignorance, and do not confuse it with insult.

Jeff

Posted by Doug (Member # 31) on February 13, 2003, 05:44 PM:

Leonard,
The Pa. Game Commission regulations are very clear on this....."It is unlawful to disturb traps or remove any wildlife from the traps of another without specific permission." If you stold the trap and animal while in possession of a firearm and without a trapping license then you may have broken additional game laws.
Let's say you park your truck along a public road..... you don't expect that someone will come along and say "finders-keepers" and drive away with your truck do you? Taking something that's not your's is theft.
Doug

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2003, 05:49 PM:

So, tell us about those ugly pitons left behind by hundreds of climbers and who gets to remove them. I think at least Joshua Tree has a policy. Then there's all the rigging & poop being dropped off El Capitan. What's up with that?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2003, 05:51 PM:

Sorry, Doug, ain't buying it. I say I found it. LB

Posted by John/Alaska (Member # 25) on February 13, 2003, 05:54 PM:

Up here in my country it is a crime to tamper with a trap and considered theft if you take an animal from anothers trap. Traplines here are generally well respected and are bought and sold. The only time that we seem to have much trap theft problems is doing moose & caribou hunting seasons. The city folk just can't resist having a souvenior. Most trappers pull their steel at the end of the season and don't usually place them until just before the trapping season which is after moose closes in most cases. Also if you know what to look for you can usually spot a trappers cache of traps out in the field. Also traps and snares are not that hidden because they don't have to be to work. Also most trappers around here flag their locations.

About 3 years ago a well known "biologist" that works for the animal rights people was flying an area and spotted a wolf in a set. He landed and released the wounded wolf. He even filmed himself doing it. Well a Fed and a state biologist who were in the area and very much against this anti tried then to save the wounded wolf by performing field surgeryafter they darted it. The wolf died. Anyway the anti biologist and the well funded eastern group that supports him were not charged with a crime because the Fed and state biologist were not allowed to do the surgery on the wolf and their appropriate bosses wanted the problem to disappear. So the two agencies chose not to press charges. The trapper, a good friend of mine brought a civil suit. Yep the anti bio and the animal rights group lost. The wolf and trap were valued at about a $1,000 but punitive damages were over $250,000.

Another two trapper friends of mine caught a guy who had been raiding their traplines. They hung him by his ankles off the Tanana river brdge until he pledged to never again do it.

Currently I'm trying to find a trap thief that has been stealing a friends traps during the big game season the past two years. We have our thoughts as not too many people hunt there but as I'm back in that country all the time I sure as hell would like to catch him for a "little" chat.

Enough story time.

Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on February 13, 2003, 06:51 PM:

Leonard: "and we are speaking candidly of course, so no offense intended or taken."

After I read my first reply I realized that you might interpret the "you's" as being directed to you Leonard. I didn't mean it that way. I meant it to anyone who would steal a trap. Sorry about that.

Leonard: "But, every time it happened to me, it was at night, on a stand, and it was a huge surprise to find out the animal was in a trap."

The coyote that I shot in a trap was at night, and I fully understand the situation. Anyway, in a contest trapped animals aren't allowed are they? Anyway, I still believe the coyote is the property of the trapper who caught it.

Leonard: "Secondly, this is BLM land, and consider what happens to a wounded buck that is shot and killed by another hunter, who then claims it."

The buck is still running, with coyotes in traps (or any animal), they're restrained with a device that belongs to the trapper. So wouldn't that make the caught animal his property? And animals on drags are usually within 30 yards of where they're caught, and they're restrained with a trap that belongs to the trapper too.

Leonard: "Third, it seems to me that a set shouldn't be within easy sight of a gravel road, there are a lot more ignorant people driving around than I."

Most trappers I know, don't set within sight of gravel roads. I know I sure as hell don't for obvious reasons. I think what you encountered was a rare situation. Many trappers who set traps within sight of roads are setting off small two-tracks. Think about it, if you're longlining professionally, having 100 traps across 200+ miles of desert will produce better (more money) than 50 traps across 100 miles of desert (losing money). You can't check 100 traps over 200+ miles if you have to hike out to each one and get away from the road. In most cases, even me setting along roads, I'm the only one who sees the coyote. And in the few instances someone else does, it's most often a rancher.

Leonard: "Fourth, motivation. Contest hunt, I "needed" the animal, and didn't even think twice that it might be stealing."

I understand your reasoning. But do contests allowed trapped coyotes?

Leave a rolled up $20 bill in the trap chain. [Wink]

But you consider a trap that a trapper has paid for, prepared and gone to the task of setting, and then checking, as something that can just be taken? That's not stealing?

Leonard: "But does the guy have absolute legal, prosecutable authority, because the trap belongs to him, even though it's government land?"

I'll get back to you in a few days with the answer to that.

Leonard: "let's say the guy has unlimited resources, puts out two hundred traps across the road from a feedlot or dump in full public view, on public land and any number of people can see those animals out there. Is he protected, beyond all question?"

You and I both know there's a vast distinction between the guys who drive roads at night with spotlights and shoot at coyotes, and people who actually go out and hunt coyotes at night seriously. Do you consider the latter to be night hunters? I don't. I consider them to be slobs. I personally do not know a single true trapper who would set any number of traps near a feedlot or dump where the public could see them. Yes it happens, but they're rare instances. Most trappers realize the fine line they're walking with trapping's future, and public relations is a big deal.

Leonard: "this is something that is frequently talked about in my organization, which has almost no members that trap."

But how many of them trapped before trapping was banned in California? I understand what you're saying, but I still believe the coyote to be the trapper's. The mistake is excusable, it's an honest mistake. But taking the coyote? And trap?

Leonard: "Strictly because of lobbying efforts by trappers, nonresidents aren't allowed to hunt bobcat in Nevada, forever."

With bobcats being the only really valuable furbearer in Nevada (with the exception of otter, which seem to be yet discovered by anyone but Morris Fenner in Nevada), I can understand why they don't want competition. I strongly disagree with it, and if I had my way, I would change that. Just like I believe all states should allow non-resident trapping. Is this a grudge against Nevada trappers?

Leonard: "Total waste of a resource, through the good times and the bad times, when they weren't worth the trouble."

Since non-residents were banned from taking bobcats in Nevada, what is the lowest price that Nevada cats have brought? $100? I think their lowest price has still been worth the effort.

Leonard: "This isn't a case of someone robbing a trapline, but I wonder if the trapper understands that what he thinks is concealed, is visible as hell at night?"

I fully understand that. I don't know of a single trapper I've talked to out West (big difference back East) who takes night hunters into consideration when setting traps. Most times after the coyote is caught he lays down and sleeps and people can drive by without him being seen. But at night, I do understand things are different. I've made the mistake myself.

Leonard: "I answered "not really" as to taking the trap but I did the first time I had it happen to me. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I found it."

The trapper bought the trap, and he owns it. Why would it become the property of someone elses?

Leonard: "I don't know for sure, but these things are supposed to be identified? I think?"

Most states require all traps have some form of identification on them. In Nevada the trap has to have a number on it that is assigned to the trapper. It is usually printed on a small piece of copper that is wrapped around the chain or swivel. It's hard to see. It can also be stamped into the metal of the trap, so you have to look for it to find it.

Leonard: "That one wasn't; a drag that was on a dry lake bed. (of all places) Who knows how far the animal had managed to run."

How do you know the trap wasn't tagged? What kind of drag? I imagine a dead limb? Yes, sometimes a coyote can go far, but the trapper has to find the animal. So I doubt it got very far from the set. You were hunting there right? So you at least thought coyotes were in the area, and the trapper must have agreed. Because he caught a coyote there.

Leonard: "Statute of limitations apply to pilloring the perp, as well. God, it was thirty years ago!"

Most coyotes caught on drags don't go farther than 50 yards with the drags used on the market today. I personally rarely have coyotes on drags go more than 25 yards if I do my part. And in some situations where I want the coyote to go farther, I have a coyote dog to help me find him.

Leonard: "No, I don't feel like I was messing with a man's livelyhood, I rather think he was negligent."

It's the trapper's fault that you found his trap and coyote?

Leonard: "By the way, I have killed far more coyotes that were missing a paw, than in a trap."

Okay, now we're treading on thin ice. You did say this was 30 years ago. A lot of things have changed in trapping since then. And anyway, if the animal lost it's foot, there wouldn't be an animal for the trapper, so what's the point in trapping? I could show you all the feet of the coyotes, foxes and bobcats I catch in my traps, and you would hardly be able to tell they've been in traps. Nothing more than a crease in the fur where the thick jaws held the foot. I release all the female bobcats I catch, they're not harmed. I will personally snap the traps that I use on my own hand. Traps aren't mutilating animals. Sorry to make a mountain of a mole-hill comment.

Leonard: "So, tell us about those ugly pitons left behind by hundreds of climbers and who gets to remove them."

Eye-sores versus traps that aren't even seen? Trying to compare Hummers to El Camino's.

John/Alaska: "Another two trapper friends of mine caught a guy who had been raiding their traplines. They hung him by his ankles off the Tanana river brdge until he pledged to never again do it."

[Big Grin]

No hard feelings towards you Leonard. I have an immense amount of respect for you, I just disagree with you on this.

And on a final note, will someone teach me how to italicize writing in a post?

Edited to try to get the italicizing right. Thanks catskin.

[ February 13, 2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: WhiteMtnCur ]

Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on February 13, 2003, 07:11 PM:

Real quick here, do (i)this(/i) around the word, use a 'b' for bold or i for italic. Now replace the ( ) with [ ] I used the ( ) only for the sample above.

Good Post BTW, you laid it out well.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2003, 07:48 PM:

It's even easier than that. You go to the bottom of the page, to the right of the instant graemlins, click on italics and follow instrucions.

BTW I still have that trap, there are no identifying marks on it, or the chain, and yes, I have a grudge against Nevada trappers now but it had nothing to do with it, then. What do you expect me to do if I find a twenty dollar bill blowing across the road? Wait for the owner to show up? That coyote could have come from half a mile on the other side of the lake, nothing to prevent it, and the road circled around it. You know what should have, and could have happened to those that hung that poor schmuck from the bridge? They would have needed good lawyers just to reduce their sentence; and I'm not defending whatever he did. I've noticed that trapping rights and privilages are in decline in many places. I still think they need to excercise good judgement, whether it's night hunters or bird dogs. They have a responsibility, too. If they string out 200 miles of traps, that's a lot of area to claim title.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on February 13, 2003, 08:58 PM:

Leonard, I pulled this out of your post in the Hunting Vehicles Forum:

"First of all, I tend to leave my truck wide open, maybe the doors open, but that's hardly an open invitation as my views closly resemble John's."

Does this contradict a little of what you said earlier about traps?

Leonard: "What do you expect me to do if I find a twenty dollar bill blowing across the road? Wait for the owner to show up?"

How does that compare to a coyote caught in a trap? You can shoot the coyote and leave it for the trapper to find. You don't have to wait for him to come back.

Leonard: "That coyote could have come from half a mile on the other side of the lake, nothing to prevent it, and the road circled around it."

And there's a possibility that a rancher set the trap due to sheep losses (Nevada had a lot more sheep 30 years ago) and you shooting the coyote was only doing the rancher a favor. Who knows?

Leonard: "I still think they need to excercise good judgement, whether it's night hunters or bird dogs."

Most trappers do exercise good judgement. But it's hard to be upset with someone who caught a coyote that happened to be in sight of a spotlight shone from a road. Not many trappers are thinking spotlights will be shone out from roads looking for coyotes.

Regarding bird dogs, where are trappers going wrong? If a dog gets caught, the hunter can release the dog. No harm done. It's too bad they usually just steal the trap. I did have one instance two years ago where I had a trap set off and a note in the jaws. It read, "Sorry to set off your trap, I caught my dog while pheasant hunting. Thanks for trapping the predators." I wish they were all that kind. There's no harm done to any bird dogs. It's not a problem if the dog gets caught.

Leonard: "If they string out 200 miles of traps, that's a lot of area to claim title."

I don't think they claim title at all. The coyote is a public resource. It doesn't belong to anyone until it's trapped, snared, or shot. So anyone could go into that 200 mile area and catch coyotes. Heck, I've trapped right behind other trappers before and come out ahead. They're not claiming the coyotes. They're just attempting to catch as many as they can, so they can support themselves doing something they love to do.

[ February 13, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: WhiteMtnCur ]

Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on February 13, 2003, 10:20 PM:

Ok,, Leonard you know I respect you very much and value your opinyon greatly, I feel that I must say this, I have trapped for 30+ years and I tallied up all the traps and the catch that have been stolen from me in that time and it will shock you but here it is> traps 41, their cost orig.$390.00 then to replace them over $400.00, now we are talking almost 800 bucks + whatever was in the trap. I know because I have kept reccords for 30+ years. Over 1/2 of those traps were taken on a foot line in Colorado and were set for bobcat and at the time they were bringing around $300.00 ea. so you do the math, I also knew that they were taken for personal gain. The Division of wildlife never cought the ass hole. I did after two years of it and He went to jail, only because if I had started in on him, I would have gone to jail. It is a big deal and they should be treated just like horse thiefs. The ones who do it all the time, I mean. so just for the sake of argument lets say they took 15 bobcat @ 200 ea, thats $3,000.00 and say they took 15 coyotes that avraged $30.00, thats $450.00 to total $3,450.00 dollars that they took from me and my family not to mention the time spent setting the traps to begin with, and my traps were set lawfully. Yes it matters to me. In this time,only one time did the guy put a 20 dollar bill in my trap along with a note saying he was sorry and giveing his phone no. I called and thanked him for being honest.
And to ansure your question about longlines, do they have a right to lay claim to that much land, well lets see here,,, if the trapper is useing 3' of chain, steaked down thats roughley 16sf x 100= 1,600sf of desert that he is useing and you are useing how much?????? Who's laying claim to what here??? So ok if you need the critter that you have now shot full of holes for your tallie on this hunt at least put something in the trap so that the trapper isn't just SOL... Mistakes happen its what you do to rectify it that makes you a sportsman or NOT....... This is a heated subject if you are a trapper and where I come from its called a "justifiable hommiside" not realy but its very serious and not taken lightly, Because after all he beat you to the coyote and has a lawful right to what he's caught.
O yes and By the way 30 years ago we did'nt have to tag our traps because most people respected them and left them alone. The main reason we had to start tagging our traps was because "trappers" were not checking their traplines often enough, I never understood that reasoning, I checked my trapline every damn day unless the weather shut me down and then I found another way to get it checked. The longest ever i went without checking my traps was the winter of 79 snowstorm that shut everything down for 4 days, even then I rented a snowmobile and checked my line on the 3rd day.
I'm not yelling or judgeing, this just hits home for me. Trapping is hard work if its done right and In the day, one lost trap or robbed trap was = to that days profit.

I'm finished now
Slydog

Just had to fix a couple things,, sorry!

[ February 13, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: 20t-n-t ]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 13, 2003, 11:17 PM:

Dang...

I'm sorry I ever came in here... I said I was sorry that I didn't understand the issue, and now this has turned to climbers leaving trash and "eyesores" everywhere? Whoa??? Am I trippin' or what? What in the world do traps and pitons have to do with one another??? (though a piton would be a good way to secure a trap LOL)

I will address that... I am actually glad you asked. [Wink]

Climbers, even on The Cap'n, don't much use pitons anymore... they've been superceeded by gear that does much less damage to the rock. And when we did use them, at over ten dollars apiece I can tell you exactly who removed them... my partner, as he climbed up to each one I pounded in... and if not I would go back and remove them myself, climbing back up the rope to the high point, when I climbed solo...

El Cap is 4,480 tall, I am 5'6" tall, 7'4" with my arm at full reach and a little more for each piece of gear...

At an average cost of ten bucks each, with the 640 placements it would take (way conservative estimate), if I left behind every piece of gear it would take to once again stand upon it's beautiful summit, it would cost me $6,400.00 in disposable gear... and my rack would weigh over six hundred pounds not including three to ten days water, as I left the ground... not bloody likely.
*Note* In 1947 John Salathé invented the removeable piton, so that he and his partner could climb the formation in yosemite now named The Salathé Wall, this was done in an effort to reduce the amount of gear carried, but also in an effort to reduce the amount of litter left behind by climbers... access was a tough issue even back then.
Television has not caught up with modern climbing tech, so neither have any of you! LOL

The Eiger Sanction... fake!

Cliffhanger... More fake!

Vertical Limit... So fake most climbers were fully offended!

And as far as ANYTHING dropped on purpose from ANY rock formatiom in ANY Wilderness Area or National Park, it is a strict no-no and punishable by up to three days in jail and fines too big to even consider... it is a federal offence the Park Rangers relish enforcing! Besides our friends are down there on the floor, camped at the base, waiting for their turn.

We also have an honor system in place on most of the "big walls" in this country and, unless you have a plane to catch or something drastic, all participate...
For every day you send on the wall, you owe it one day of clean up... Hike out to El Cap terraces sometime, look around, it's clean...

Everything we take up the wall, except for urine (and some guys are now recycling that through water purifiers so sometimes even that is taken off) comes down with us.
A three gallon bucket or PVC "poop tube" is carried along and all feces is brought down in it. Or elaborate drying methods are used, as you climb, and the poop is burned in an approved fire pit on top (not a fire you want to huddle around).

And no ropes or rigging can be left unattended for more than two days... many of "the trade routes' will have climbers waiting in line to climb and many "fix pitches" (leave ropes up) to make the climb go faster and limit the number of nights on the wall (in an effort to save wear and tear on the vertical desert), or they have such a constant stream of teams on it it may seem to be littered with the same ropes, when indeed it has been many many different ones up in the same way..

In J-Tree there is a "fixed anchor" commitee and if youd like to hand drill and install a bolt or hammer in a piton there is a $250 (non-refundable) application fee and your project may or may not be approved, this had lead to the deaths of three climbers (and who knows how many more injuries) who have fallen and the removable gear we often rely on wouldn't work... a bolt has now been added.

The rock , like a hunters quarry, is very important to us, and like hunting land access is lost all the time... now I know the votes I cast in favor of hunting issues and access were not repaid in kind. I never woulda thought you guys could be labeled "anti-s"???

Blast down a mountain in Nevada and make it into pennies and telephone wires... drive on concrete roads of crushed rock and mined portland cement... make dinner on your granite coumtertops while standing on your slate floors... but heaven forbid Krusty nail his way up some otherwise untraveled stone??? So that he might feel the same pride and sense of accomplishment a big game hunter must feel, as he takes three days to ascend a mile of stone.

I will never be able to climb The Big Stone ever again, for personal reasons, but knowing you guys don't support my right to do it is shocking... truly... (I have a lot to say about this, but I'm way too tired)

And as far as "the eyesores" are concerned, the words of the late great Dan Osmond ring to mind, (he was fined three thousand dollars for replacing three dangerously old bolts, two thousand feet off the deck, a climbing community service)

"The bolts I put up there couldn't be seen by the average tourist with the Hubble telescope"

The climbing community in and around Yosemite raised the money to pay his fine. The three most expensive bolts in climbing LOL. Since then hundreds of climbers have safely spent the night there.

Which would you rather see, a few harmless bolts and pitons in the rock, or dead and mangled bodies all over a bloodstained landscape?
I feel it is a small trade off in the big scheme of things for the safety of my friends.

Should they stop putting safeties on guns, and we'll all throw away our hunter's orange too? How 'bout seatbelts and motorcycle helmets, nah don't need them either?

Wow???

Can we talk about trapped animals?

Appearantly NOT!!!

Jeff

P.S. Ya know Leonard, that was thirty years ago???

How long can one old guy hold a grudge? Sheesh! LOL

[ February 14, 2003, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2003, 03:35 PM:

You know, I actually dreaded logging on today, it was starting to look like a friggin accidental shooting of an escaped coyote was being equated to child molestation.

Krusty, don't take it seriously, I don't know what I'm talking about; but I sure found a hot button for ya, didn't I?

Trevor, as far as quoting me at length, do me a favor and knock it off. Even when it's not myself being crucified, it irritates me.

Sly, I fully understand the economics of your problem, point well taken.

I have no remorse about that coyote, or the trap. But, I have pondered it a bit since yesterday, so maybe this thread has some value? When will I learn? Further mitigation: It was a two hundred yard shot, out on a flat lake bed without a blade of grass. It's not like I pulled up a stake, and at the time, I really didn't consider the ethical situation. As far as it being a Club hunt, I was mistaken. I remembered after I went to bed how it happened, and no, trapped animals are not allowed. It was a scouting trip, the week before. But I sure as hell didn't bring it up so that everybody could construct a case for the prosecution. For many crimes to be proved, there has to be intent. The lamest comparision so far, in my view (besides the one I used about leaving climbing gear on a mountain) is parking a truck on the side of the road, and that being regarded as an open invitation for a stranger to drive off with it. Let's get real. Yes, I think I resent the lecture, and the lynch mob. I didn't want the focus to be on my transgression. I could have easily learned as much without the personal attacks.

I wonder if a general combative attitude, when dealing with true enemies, such as PETA; contributes to the way that trapping is losing support almost everywhere? No offense, of course; just an observation.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by LN (Member # 103) on February 14, 2003, 03:53 PM:

Being fairly new here I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I think this hypothetical person is A) a cheat, adding a trapped coyote to a contest
B) a theif for taking property he dosn't own
C) a hypocrit for thinking he has more claim to using public land than a trapper
D) justifies his actions by claiming the trap was too close to the road AND the trap was on a dry lake bed and who knows how far it traveled, problem is second argument excuses the first!
E) seems to have a grudge against trappers and makes excuses to justify HIS illegal activities
F) would have no right to complain if someone FOUND his equipment left while trailing a wounded coyote, but I'm sure in his mind that is different and he would want the offended prosecuted.

My 2 cents worth, and if you want to flame me to justify unsportsman and illegal activities than this board isn't worth it. [Confused]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2003, 04:06 PM:

Don't worry about it, partner. Why would you think your post would ruffle feathers? You got in a shot, you can duck and run, or try being civil. I just SAID I don't need no friggin lectures but fear not, you have not been flamed for your opinion. LB

edit: I forgot. Welcome to Huntmasters

[ February 14, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on February 14, 2003, 04:27 PM:

Sorry if I pissed you off Leonard, that wasn't my intent. I didn't mean for my posts to be personal attacks on you.

I didn't intend to turn this post into a fight. I have nothing against climbers Krusty, sorry if it came across that way.

Leonard originally asked how does a trapper feel about losing a trap (and possibly an animal). The answer, I feel, is it's a pretty serious thing. Yes, we as trappers have to deal with it, but it's nice when other hunters/outdoorsman respect that we're trapping, and don't steal/shoot, etc. Of course mistakes happen. There's no one to blame for a trapped coyote being accidentally shot, I wouldn't hold it against anyone if it's a mistake. I'm mainly against people who would steal the trap/animal, or shoot trapped animals intentionally (those comments are not directed towards anyone on this forum).

As far as support for trapping, I don't see it losing support everywhere. Actually quite the opposite. Check out the front page of today's USA TODAY. Or some of the recent Wall Street Journal articles. It's badly misunderstood, even by many hunters, which is why it's had so many past struggles.

Posted by James (Member # 104) on February 14, 2003, 04:28 PM:

Someone posting here asked me to comment on an issue, maybe because I'm a lawyer as well as a hunter and trapper.

Leonard: "But does the guy have absolute legal, prosecutable authority, because the trap
belongs to him, even though it's government land?"

The answer is the same whether it's public or private land. Only a prosecutor (a district attorney or similar government lawyer) can prosecute. If a crime is committed against you (and theft of a trap or legally caught animal IS a crime), this person is the one who decides whether and what to charge the perpetrator with. But the individual victim (here, the trapper) can sue you in a civil action for damages. Another Alaskan here mentioned the veridict rendered by a Tok jury against a biologist who released a snared wolf (although I believe the judge reduced the jury award in that case to around $140,000) in just such a case.

Provided the animal is legally trapped, it becomes the property of the trapper. If you accidentally shoot such an animal, you would not acquire title to it; the proper thing to do is leave the animal there. Since most states have laws prohibiting theft or interference with a trap or trapped animal, you'd also be wise to leave a note explaining the circumstances and offering to pay any damages to the fur, in order to avoid the risk of prosecution.

Since laws vary from state to state, consult your local regulations.

Leonard: "let's say the guy has unlimited resources, puts out two hundred traps across the
road from a feedlot or dump in full public view, on public land and any number of people can see
those animals out there. Is he protected, beyond all question?"

Yes, if he's trapping legally. He's not trapping legally if he's out of season, trespassing, trapping in a closed area, using banned traps, etc. But even if he's trapping illegally, you still do NOT have the right to remove or tamper with his traps, unless he's trespassing and you are the landowner. You should call your local wildlife enforcement officer, and let him take care of it.

A couple things make your scenario unrealistic. A trapper does not have to have "unlimited resources" to run 200 traps; given current prices, that number just might let you eke out a subsistence living. Also, few trappers would be so foolish as to leave that many traps in plain sight, where thieves will walk away with them. It does little good to be the victim of a crime when the evidence and thief are probably long gone.

Jim

[ February 14, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: James ]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 14, 2003, 05:31 PM:

Leonard-
Wow! It shocks me to see you posting a thread on this subject. On one hand, I'm upset that you've admitted to doing something that I consider to be one of the lowest things a sportsman can do. On the other hand, I'm glad that it's bugged you enough for 30 years that you've brought it up now for discussion.

Trevor pretty much summed up anything and everything I might want to toss into the fray, but I would like to offer a few brief comments.

First off, it doesn't really matter much to me why the trapper had his gear there. Recreational trapping versus long-lining. The fact remains that any legally set trap is the property of the trapper, legally being defined as being a trap allowed as prescribed by state law, and with the trapper having valid permission to be where he's at. Any animal caught in that trap is his, as well. Once the animal's restrained in the trap, he's no longer public domain, to me. For anyone at all to come along and tamper with the trap and/ or animal is no different whether the person is a hunter that takes my coyote, or a tree hugger that releases it.

You cited intent as a factor in any criminal act. Correct. And if you remove the animal and trap, you've done so with the intent to possess property that is simply not yours.

Have you ever had a deer stand stolen? I don't imagine they're very common in muley country, but in whitetail areas, they're placed early in the year on regular travel routes for deer. Nothing ruins your season like planning for the opener, getting up early, hiking into the woods and upon arrival at your tree, you find noting but boot prints and empty branches. To me, stealing a deer stand and taking traps are one and the same.

This past Fall, my 11 year old son and I were out calling for the camera along this big wooded creek. I knew a nice ladder stand was located there, and had been for the past three seasons. In fact, the wood platform had been replaced annually and the swivel seat well maintained. So, I knew it hadn't just been abanadoned. On the way out, I walked over to that stand, pointed to it, and asked Dalian if he'd left that there. He said no. What we had was a great opportunity for the ol' man to make a point. He hates it when I get all "Old Man and the Boy"-Ruarkish-prophetic, but it happens. I said, "Damned right you didn't. Because it's not yours, and it never will be. But it sure belongs to somebody and if you so much as ever mess with another man's deer stand, or trap, or anything else he might leave in the woods so he can come back and hunt or trap around it, then, well, you don't deserve to call yourself a sportsman and I'll sell every damned gun you shoot and piece of gear you use and make sure that you don't go to the woods with me again. His permission is no less valid than yours, except that he's not a thief, and because of that, you wouldn't deserve the right to hunt here anyway." I then asked him if he was clear on this matter. Believe me, he was. It would have been perfect if I'd had a pipe stem to chew on, a dirty old felt fedora-like hat, and broke side by side hanging from the crook of my arm.

Yes, there are laws and regulations about how and where traps can and cannot be placed. But, unfortunately, there are cases where traps are placed in places that are less than appropriate. As it is with a lot of things in this crazy, mixed up world, it may be immoral, it may be unethical, and it may be poor judgment, but it isn't always illegal. What you regard as concealed may very well be in plain view for me and the places I walk and look. You'd be surprised at how well most trappers know every little nook and cranny on their lines. Where you see acre upon acre of wide open view, the trapper sees infinite little 2-inch square spaces, each the size of a trap pan. And he looks for the best squares under which to place his trap. In fact, I'd be willing to bet you've called over a lot of trapped or snared coyotes in your years of calling, maybe more, and didn't even know they were there. You just happened to stand one up. And you made a decision that differs a great deal from what I would have done.

I myself have come upon coyotes in traps when entering calling setups. Any of us with enough time under our belts probably have. And yes, I could have taken the coyote and no one would have known the better. But I didn't. I shot the coyote. Checked the trap for a tag (it didn't have one). Then, I went and told the rancher to contact the trapper and let him know it was there. This isn't meant as a personal attack by any means, but more for future reference, but my son's school has a program that promotes character and integrity as how you make decisions when you know no one is looking. This is a perfect case in point for this.

As far as trap identification goes, don't assume that because you don't see it, it isn't there. Kansas requires that all traps be tagged with the owner's name and current address. Visible tags can be easily removed. My tags are very well concealed prior to dying or dipping and I actually had to show my tag's location to the local Conservation Officer one day when he couldn't find it.

Again, I'm surprised that this subject is even being discussed. I'm also very glad it is so that other guys can maybe take something away from it in knowing that there is, in fact, another side to this issue. It's not just a "hunting thing". Simple rule to follow: if you didn't put it there, don't take it home. Had I made the same decision thirty years ago, I'd probably be regretting it now, too. The fact that you seem to speaks to your character. And I, for one, respect that.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2003, 09:09 PM:

I guess I'm due my turn in the barrel. What was I thinking, anyway?

A couple of points.

Trevor sees it as "a pretty serious thing" which is his right and privilege. It should be obvious (by now) that I did not have a clue, even at this point as to the level of concern. I fail to grasp the position that the animal was personal property, even as I have described the circumstances. No one else way there, and I made a judgement that this was a lost animal. I never suspected that the guy that set out the trap would ever find it. That's my belief, and the rest of the speculation here is simply advocating. Nobody knows, but I was there, and I felt that it was recoverable. There are lots of things out in the desert that don't belong to anyone. Abandoned years ago, etc.

James, welcome to the New Huntmasters. I hope I can say this without also conveying attitude? I got fair enough grades in Business Law though it was a long time ago. For every prosecutor that thinks he has a clear violation of law, (thankfully) there is a defense lawyer equally sure that he is mistaken. Your opinion is appreciated, but not conclusive, and I'm confident that a good defense attorney could mount a credible defense in my behalf. Need I remind you that OJ didn't do it? I'm not being a smart ass, just offering my own, equally valid opinion.
For your consideration. I had my car stolen from my driveway by three Asian gang teenagers. They stole my cell phone and $103 that was in the ash tray and when they were arrested a mile away, I got the cell phone back within an hour. Of course, they damaged my car, but the police didn't seem to care about my property, and refused to give me the names and addresses, since they were minors, all from families of means. The DA didn't prosecute and they got a short probation. I guess it didn't matter that they had six cell phones and burglery tools, and my money? Basically, nothing happened. Except insurance rates and deductables. Moral outrage has many levels, doesn't it? Here in the city, you have to be pretty much unredeemable to go to jail for anything. Absolutely true, what you say: laws vary from state to sate.

Cdog, I appreciate your thoughts on the issue at hand. If you think you are surprised, I am also. Lowest things a sportsman can do? Poaching, exceeding a limit, taking fish or game out of season, hunting without a license, these things are higher on your ethical scale? Oh well, I know you tried to make me feel a little better. Thanks for that.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by James (Member # 104) on February 14, 2003, 10:10 PM:

Thanks for the welcome, Leonard. If I can find the time I may hang around, as this seems like a nice forum you folks have got. Now, please pardon me if I take issue with some of what you said.

"I fail to grasp the position that the animal was personal property, even as I have described the circumstances. No one else way there, and I made a judgement that this was a lost animal. I never suspected that the guy that set out the trap would ever find it. That's my belief, and the rest of the speculation here is simply advocating. Nobody knows, but I was there, and I felt that it was recoverable. There are lots of things out in the desert that don't belong to anyone. Abandoned years ago, etc."

It doesn't matter (as a legal defense) whether you grasp that you were (probably) violating the law. And it doesn't matter whether you knew you were violating the law. But I'd like to help you grasp it. I'm now leaving my field of expertise, but when you started this thread you seem to be troubled a bit by a guilty conscience, and you now seem to be rationalizing your act. Conflicted? Might it not be better to just admit you might have made a mistake thirty years ago and now know better? The prospect of helping you to know better is probably what keeps the replies coming your way here. Incidentally, a trap with a live animal has not been abandoned for years.

"I got fair enough grades in Business Law though it was a long time ago. For every prosecutor that thinks he has a clear violation of law, (thankfully) there is a defense lawyer equally sure that he is mistaken. Your opinion is appreciated, but not conclusive, and I'm confident that a good defense attorney could mount a credible defense in my behalf. Need I remind you that OJ didn't do it? I'm not being a smart ass, just offering my own, equally valid opinion."

With all due respect for your business law course, which I'm sure was quite sound, I have a three-year law degree and have practiced law for 22 years. I did not discuss whether there was enough evidence of the crime to convict you; you admitted to the facts, so they were assumed. Of course, if you were charged you would have a Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate yourself.

"For your consideration. I had my car stolen from my driveway by three Asian gang teenagers. . . ."

Again, you have stated a set of facts which I'll assume are true. This too is a crime, and that's not a matter of opinion. Prosecutors have lots of reasons for declining to prosecute. Perhaps he/she believed there was insufficient evidence to convict these suspects. More likely, he/she may have made a choice to allocate limited resources to trying a more serious offense. Regretably, lots of crimes go undetected or unpunished. Our legal system, like everything else created by man, is not perfect.

But none of this supports the argument -- if you are indeed trying to make it -- that taking someone else's property is not a crime.

Jim

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 14, 2003, 10:12 PM:

Leonard,

I will not use any "cut and paste" quoting... I don't know why some guys just hate that?
I just want to make sure I don't screw up a quote... and before I knew how to c&p it used to get me in a ton of trouble, and took a long time to copy.

I didn't take it seriously, well not too seriously lol... but it took so long to type, and I just got more, and more, wound up... (yes you have found "The Big Red Button"... your accusation had the same ring to it as "you hunters are out there murdering innocent animals, and you won't quit 'til all the animals are gone"... both pretty unrealistic)
*no longer addressing just Leonard*

And I woulda used a pile of smilies to let you guys know I was cool with it... but they take a long time to look up and import (Leonard has limited us to 8 emotions to a post... we are men after all! LOL), and it was already late.
I wasn't mad, I just wanted to share the facts about climbing (ask me about what I know, and I'll tell ya [Wink]

). Most of which probably hugely contradicted how most non-climbers see things... (did anybody learn anything?)
Hahaha, I sure learned a ton about trapping, and hunting... I really have, being as I already have a set of values concerning this kind of thing that most of you could live with (if your stuff ain't mine it ain't mine, not your truck, not your food, not your traps or animals), we shouldn't have any problems in real life.

I sure ain't worried about any of you ol' duffers climbing up and taking my pitons! [Razz]

LOL

*addressing just Leonard again*
Leonard, you (just like me) will know what your talkin' about next time, though, won'tcha? [Big Grin]

The last thing I thought I was participating in was a lynch mob, and in no way do I consider what you did to be anything more than a bump in the road of life, a minor mistake, you should let yourself off the hook.
Plenty of water under the bridge since then if you ask me.
*no longer addressing Leonard* hehe just wanna be clear [Cool]

LN,

That was over the top?!? Man, guys accuse me of tryin' not to fit in? [Eek!]

Somewhat good points, but taken way too far. [Confused]

The truth (or the fault) in an issue never resides at one extreme or the other, usually somewhere in between. No flame intend, this board is actually worth a lot, to me, too much to hold a grudge against any of you.

Trevor,

I sure didn't want to fight either, and your apology is accepted, with grace... it was big of you to offer it (you too Leonard)!
It didn't come accross that way, I thought you were just reiterating the point Leonard had made (which if any of his accusations were still true, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on).
*no longer addressing just Trevor* lol

Take Yosemite for instance (our Mecca) 1.4 million people visit the Park each year... with only 70,000 of them climbers, so we have tour bus drivers preaching the kind of rhetoric Leonard mistakenly assumed (which is cool, it's Hollywoods fault, not you guys'), to to 1.33 million people a year...
How would you like to be sittn' on a stand and have a tour bus pull up and unload 65 people, only to have to listen to the guide spout off over the PA how hunters are bad?

...honestly heard from a tour bus driver in The Park... "Up there on the cliffs, are climbers... they like to sit and listen to the wind... blowing through the holes in their heads!"
I got the joke, but that's the kind of public image we don't need.

Jim,

That clears things up really well for me... thanks!
Ignorance of the law is never an excuse, and now I am a lot less ignorant (just less though lol).
*no longer addressing only Jim*

Funny, being a climber I had never given this whole thing a lot of thought, like I say I don't take what's not mine, and I always forget about those who would.

I have been enlightened. I've never stumbled onto a trap (pun intended), but now I know what to do if I ever do... run for the hills as fast as I can!!!!

Cdog,

Great writing, very good story, I could hear my Dad's voice as I read your words... I hope I passed your standards, which are admirable.
*you guys get the picture*

I guess a big part of why I got so riled, is related to why I took up hunting again...
I hadn't been hunting in over twenty years.
And last fall my brothers hunting partner canceled on him, last minute, right before the PM's NW Rendezvous... so I decided to just go along to watch his son who was included at the last minute too, when his sitter cancelled.

While there that weekend I was treated so well by the hunters that were there, admittedly better than my rockclimbing friends (read: treehuggers) would have treated hunters, I'm ashamed to say.

I was so impressed by this, that I was moved to rethink my whole outdoor life, and how much time I could have spent in the fields with my dad and my brother, but most of all my favorite uncle who had passed away suddenly just before our trip.
Instead I wasted most of my adulthood running all over the west in search of rock.

So when these guys I have found so much resect for turned on me, I freaked, I have an immense amount of respect for the hunting community...and I'd like very much just to fit in.
But all you do when you try to shove a square peg into a round hole, is mess up the peg, or the hole... so I should probably stop trying so hard... eventually the corners will wear off and I'll be "round".

Man I am longwinded, or what???

Jeff

[ February 14, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2003, 11:24 PM:

Sorry Jim, I'm still not allowing you the clearer understanding of the issues simply because you hold up a law degree.

But, enough of that point and counterpoint. I want to express relief that Scott Huber: aka Wiley E (and a personal friend) has a broken computer, or I bet he'd ream me, good and proper!

And he's the one that uses all those quotes that I've learned to dislike, as if I don't remember what I wrote.

Krusty, don't worry about LN, I've read his comments many times on the blackboard.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Maineiac (Member # 21) on February 15, 2003, 06:45 AM:

Leonard, keep your head up. I have a lot of respect for someone who can stand up (especially in public in frount of your friends,peers or the rest of the world) and ask for opinions of others. And asking these opinions on something that one has done.

Only your were there, you made a judgement call, based on what the situation was.

I like that fact that you are standing by that decision that you made 30 years before.

I am not here to judge you or anyone else. I and only I answer for the thing that I do. I hold myself to very high standards and I expect a lot from myself, but I do not hold other people to my standards. I realize that I am not here to pass judgement on others.

As I write this I just want to reiterate the amount of respect that I have for anyone who stands up for there actions.

My paw-paw (grandfather) used to tell all us grandkids that the hardest thing that we will ever do is the right and decent thing to do. He also said that it will also be the hardest thing that we would ever have to do. He is right.

So keep you chin up, your alright in my book, Leonard.

Tom Roper

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2003, 07:08 AM:

Thank you, Maineiac. Very generous comments.

Yesterday evening I asked my lovely, trusting and faithful wife of 41 years to take fifty minutes, and read this entire thread.

She fearlessly agreed with everybody else.....so she's on thin ice, right now! [Smile]

Man! That card I got her yesterday, cost me four bucks!

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Maineiac (Member # 21) on February 15, 2003, 07:20 AM:

I don't throw my 2 cents in very often, as soon as I read this thread. I wasn't going to leave those pennies out. They were getting lonely. Have a good one.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 15, 2003, 08:00 AM:

Ya know, Leonard, I guess I may have to make something of a concession on this matter. Given the circumstances in which you found yourself, I can understand the conclusions that were drawn on that coyote. There's as much difference in trapping those wide open spaces on federal ground compared to my farm- and rangeland, as there is calling them. In the time I've been networking with all you western callers, I've tried (at times in vain) to address the differences in my circumstances versus yours, and the challenges/ benefits/ liabilities that come with the whole package. Had I been in the same situation, I may have made the same decision. Who's to say? And I certainly am not trying to condemn you or chastise you for the decision you made thirty years ago. Totality of circumstances sorta thing. But trappers have faced this problem for as long as I've trapped and much longer, I'm sure. Too many otherwise law-abiding, upstanding sportsmen come across a trap set or trapped animal and, for whatever reason, somehow revert to the second grade and subscribe to "finders, keepers" logic. Earlier, it was suggested that this was akin to you getting up to track a runner and somebody comes along and finds your caller, your shooting sticks, your butt pad, whatever, and in the absence of someone there to immediately claim them, they're their's. Someone, it may have been you, basically said apples and oranges. Not so (IMO). Is it not logical to believe that the trap was placed with the intent of checking it the next day? Rhetorical question. I know you understand this. But trappers get a little gun shy about this problem since it costs us a lot of money annually. Too many people who, like you yourself admitted, have never trapped assume that trapping is a lazy man's way of hunting. Set the trap and let it be your sentinel 24-7 to catch every coyote or bobcat that comes along. Wish it worked that way. Trapping is a very time consuming, labor intensive venture with high overhead costs and little profit margin, requiring at least the amount of knowledge we have as callers to be successful on a consistent basis. Your job, as a caller, is to bring the coyote into shooting range. That chore involves a reasonably large expanse of area with a lot of room for variability. Trapping a coyote requires the knowledge, and the ability to apply that knowledge, to coax a coyote to put one foot on a spot two inches square. Guess how many two inch squares it would take to cover the deserts of Arizona? A lot of 'em, huh? [Smile]

the trapper who owned that trap was probably very adept at tracking his drag marks - most who use drags are - and would probably have recovered his coyote with little problem, had he been given the opportunity. I guess as a trapper and a hunter, I ask only that other hunters attempt to understand what trappers are doing and respect their right to practice their trade. First one to the coyote wins. My personal reasoning for further addressing this matter is that there may be someone on this forum that will find themselves in the same or similar circumstances as you were on that day thirty years ago, and they will, hopefully, take pause to at least acknowledge that a fellow sportsman is active in that area and that dispatching his catch then leaving it there would be the ethical thing to do. Not unlike hearing a shot, seeing a deer come toward you with an obvious gunshot wound, and dropping the deer so the other guy can recover it. As opposed to shooting the deer and claiming it for your own, knowing that the other guy drew first blood. As far as ranking game violations, comparing this breech of ethics to poaching, exceeding limits, taking out of season, and hunting without a license, I stand firm in the sense that all of these are violations against the resource and the people of your respective state. All the people. I don't consider poachers and game hogs to be hunters or sportsmen. They're criminals, and they're activities injure a much broader scope of people, not just me. Stealing my trap or catch is personal and, in that sense, affects me much more directly. Thus, I rank it much higher.

This thread reminded me of an incident in my earliest years of trapping. Coon prices were very high and there were border wars in the woods over who got the fur. I was new, young, and trapping an area with a lot of coonhound activity. One morning, while checking traps, I found one set trashed and the trap/ drag gone. I knew the guy who hunted that creek and immediately assumed he had stole my trap. I was angry and hurt. Thirty yards down the dry creek channel, I found a red ball cap wedged in the fork of a tree, beneath which was my trap and coon, chewed up and dead, but there nonetheless. When I got home that day, my dad told me that the coonhunter I had unfairly accused and condemned had called that morning to tell me his dogs had caught my coon, killed it, and that he'd flagged it with his hat to make sure I'd find it, since he didn't know where my original set site had been. When I went to his house to return his hat and thank him for his honesty, he explained objectively the concerns of coonhunters for their dogs' welfare when in the woods. I learned a lot that day about being objective. And I came to understand a lot about coonhunters. Became one myself in time. Live and learn.

Krusty- we view our lives and the lessons to be learned by comparing them with our own life experiences. Yours is as important as mine. Glad you're here.

Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on February 15, 2003, 08:36 AM:

I hope there are no hard feelings because of this. That wasn't my intent in this thread.

You took the trap 30 years ago Leonard, and I would have said this at the beginning of the thread, I don't care too much about that incident. The trapper (if he's still around), has gotten over it, and if the trap was on a poor drag, it's possible (maybe even likely?) that the trapper was just a rancher wanting to solve some of his own predator problems, so you did him a favor.

I guess the only thing I really wanted with this post was for anyone reading to have more awareness of trappers, and maybe if they come across trapped animals to leave them alone. Or shoot them and leave them. Sorry if that's not what was conveyed.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2003, 09:08 AM:

Yeah, no question this might be a learning opportunity for members and lurkers, alike....at my expense.

I will say this; that I have been active on these boards for quite a few years now, and am always candid and honest as I can be. Unsolicited; people have told me, in the past, that they can read between the lines and see an ethical human being.... 'Course; that was before.

Anyway, as much as it is possible to know somme one else through the keyboard, I make an effort to connect with them, and am generally successul. Aside from that, I know that I contribute more than my share to the store of knowledge; my conscience is clear on that.

No more sucking up, okay? LB

Posted by John/Alaska (Member # 25) on February 15, 2003, 10:48 AM:

Leonard -

I enjoyed this little discussion. IMHO trapping and all that goes with it is in general misunderstood definitely by the general public and I believe most hunters. Discussions such as the one here serve to educate. Yes trappers can get very emotional on the subject that you raised.

Last night a friend of mine told me that he saw a wolf along the highway dragging a trap. He had no gun but someone else came along and did. As far as he knew they shot the wolf. As many units here do not require trap tags or indentification then whose wolf is it?? You raised some interesting questions both legal and ethical when started this post.

James - Welcome aboard. Yeah I had heard that the award was reduced. The sad part is the the trapper, Eugene, died this last spring from a motorcycle accident. I'll sure miss him. As I live in Tok I know most all of the individuals involved in that case including the jury members. I was almost called as a witness. Glad I wasn't.

Posted by James (Member # 104) on February 15, 2003, 11:01 AM:

Pride can sometimes mislead us into untenable positions. I might, for instance, maintain that my medical opinion is just as valid as a practicing MD's, just because I once took a Red Cross course. If I were to be so misled, I'd hope I still had the sense to rely on the good advice of my wife. I didn't come here to condemn you, Leonard, but simply to lend my assistance in answering your questions. But it looks like my assistance is not required.

Hi, John. Nice to meet you. Do you hang out at trapperman.com, and if so, what is your handle there?

Jim

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2003, 11:35 AM:

James, I made the statement that your opinion was appreciated. Accept that for what it's worth, it's the truth. But, no. I don't care how much law you have studied, or how long you have practiced, you are not the ultimate authority, here or anywhere else. Ever notice that a lot of Supreme Court decisions go 5-4? Lawyers, as a group, can't agree on anything, which is as it should be. I find merit in your argument, if I hurt your feelings, accept my apology. LB

Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on February 15, 2003, 02:27 PM:

Leonard,

We all step in it sooner or later, I say welcome to the " Bent barrel club " LOL . Thanks for being so honest and for takeing the ass reamin that you got, even if thats not what most of us were trying to do. By the way, does this mean I won't be getting a card?? LOL I hope you did'nt take my writeings totaly personal, I think after going back and re-reading my post, that I could have been more clear about my in general portions of that post. It is a sore spot with me and gets me up in arms. So for jumping on you like the pack I so hate, I would like to say I'm sorry.

I also think it took great courage to tell on your self, Sometimes we all have to learn the hard way.
I think you are an ok guy Leonard and I hope your not upset with me for spilling my guts about the way that I feel about that subject. Anyway I'm done with it.

All should have learned from it

Smote the Yote
Slydog

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2003, 04:18 PM:

Thanks again, sly. Yeah, I feel like my pants are hanging down around my ankles, but I can take it.

Hey, do other Boards allow attacks on the "King Hell Dictator"? By visitors ?

I have a wall out back, with some hardware, spurs, bullet molds, branding irons, and a single trap on it. Fits in with the desert theme, lava and cactus, etc.

I looked at that trap, the only one I have ever handled, actually. I's a Diamond Products #4 long spring, and there are two springs on it. This is the closest I have examined it in years, I'd forgotten what it was. I'd know some of the names of manufacturers, but this brand is unfamiliar to me? Is it a good one or do you know of it? What would it be used for?

The place where I found it is at the end of a steep canyon that opens up into some nice rocky foothills right on the edge of a dry lake bed. I have killed a few cats in that exact same spot, they like the lava cliffs, but the coyote was way out behind us, on the alkalide flats. A surprise, you don't see anything out on a dry lake bed, normally. It seems reasonable to me that the trap may have been intended for bobcat. To me, it doesn't look like a good location to "trap" coyotes, but I don't know much about it, and freely admit it.

I sure know how to generate a stimulating conversation, no?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2003, 04:58 PM:

Wiley E has just registered. edit: Guess he's got a date tonight? Well, they say he types with blazing speed and uses a bunch of quotes. That is one feature I deliberately turned off.

Hello? Scott? You out there?

[ February 15, 2003, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on February 15, 2003, 05:04 PM:

That's an antique trap Leonard. Diamond Products traps, made by Norwich Wire Works, were produced from 1923-1931, in Norwich New York.

The #4 longspring was the standard size trap used for coyotes and bobcats, before the coilsprings became popular. Diamond, Newhouse and Victor #4 longspring were what the big wolfer's used all through the 20's, 30's, and the glory days of the 40's.

As far as collector value (I doubt you have any intention of selling it), I'm not the best person to ask because I don't collect many traps. But assuming that you read the 'Diamond Products' off the pan, it's obviously in pretty good condition, and I've seen them sell for around $40.

Since it was on a wooden drag, and the coyote had gotten a lot farther than intended, there's a good chance it was a cat set. Many cat trappers wire their trap chains off to dead limbs, and cats rarely go far. But a coyote's another story.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2003, 06:06 PM:

Oh great, I never disputed the dollar figure that you came up with but my own estimate would have been a six dollar trap and an eight dollar coyote. This was back in either late '70 or early '71, no fur boom yet. But now it's worth forty bucks.

Actually, I was wrong, it says very clearly, "Diamond Brand" not products, and I can also read Norwich wire works Norwich N? It also says "made by" and "Made in USA". It also has a pierced diamond shape under the name.

Good hunting. LB

edit: did you say "sell" it? Hell No! I've been thinking of putting it back where I found it, before I get in trouble!

[ February 15, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by LN (Member # 103) on February 15, 2003, 10:40 PM:

Leonard, guess I'm just gun shy, I post once in a while on shooters and usually the attack dogs are all over me, thats one reason I lurk and rarely speak up. this time I came out swinging to get my thoughts out expecting to be driven back into hiding.
Other than being blunt about it I don't think I said anything different than others were saying, but I wanted to make an impact since you seemed to be brushing off their sugar coated comments.
everybody makes mistakes but if you don't learn from them you are destined to repeat them. I'm not a trapper and never have been, what got me riled up was your excuses to justify the taking of someone elses property. trying to put the blame on the trapper. yep if you hadn't left your cell phone in your truck those misguided teenagers wouldn't have found it and claimed it after all if they didn't take it somebody else would have right so might as well be them.
no lecture intended here, just an old saying that to get a mule to listen you have to get his attention

Posted by 20t-n-t (Member # 46) on February 16, 2003, 01:38 AM:

leonard, the trap is a rare one at that, I would be interested in buying it if you were in a mind to sell it.

Smote the Yote
Slydog

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2003, 09:38 AM:

Yeah, I wonder if that might add to the value? You could say it was recovered from that (Pond Scum) Leonard, on Huntmasters, and like OJ, you are searching for the rightful owner on every golf course in America.

If I toss it out the window as I drive by, I'll send you the GPS coordinates, in the event you plan on being in the neighborhood. (joke)

Seriously, I do find it interesting that this is an uncommon trap. I didn't know that folks collected such things. BTW, all the stamping is on the pan, that might seem obvious to everybody but me.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by John/Alaska (Member # 25) on February 16, 2003, 12:02 PM:

James -

No I don't hang out there. Haven't even visited it yet but guess I will. The handle you see is pretty much what I use on any forum I participate in.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2003, 02:08 PM:

I can vouch for that, John has been around for a long time.

John, did you know that our friend from Tok, "Donna" is now a bullet maker in San Francisco? She sent me a box of 200 grain HPs for 45ACP, they are well made and grouped very well in my Commander.

LattieStone Ballistics, Inc.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 16, 2003, 05:39 PM:

VEDY INTEARESTEEN!

Many trappers expressed my sentiments on this post exactly. I can probably relate most to the friends of John who hung the trap thiefs up by the ankles. LOL! As far as I'm concerned, they got off easy.

I don't want to add gas to the fire here but this is a very sore subject with any serious trapper and I think it adds a lot of value to this forum for callers to understand the views of trappers.

Leonard,

Old buddy old pal!

We've been through many a good battle haven't we?

Usually on the same side but not in this case. LOL!

The first thing I learned about this post is the back bone you have expressed by not feeling the need to delete posts that burned you at the stake.

That is the Leonard that I call my friend. That shows impecible integrity!

The funniest thing I read is Leonard telling Mt Cur to "knock it off" simply because the young lad had you by the short hairs and you knew it. LMAO! That was funny!

Good job Trevor! Keep him honest!

Getting to the original question:

It sounds as if this was a cat set and normally a cat will not take a drag very far.

The fact that a coyote drug the wooden drag out on a flat and may have taken the drag quite a ways plays into your favor JUST A LITTLE.

Most coyote drags are steel and coyotes usually don't get much further than the nearest cover.

The right thing to do would have been to find out who was trapping in that area and return both trap and coyote.

Shooting a coyote in a trap at night? Honest mistake.

I can see that happening so easily!

The right thing to do in most cases would be to leave a note and cover the trapped coyote with brush so someone else doesn't steal it.

The right thing to do in THIS CASE would have been to call the local landowner to find out who was trapping in the area or leave a note where the trapper would find it with your phone number so you could return both trap and coyote.

I have killed fox in traps before and covered them so other trappers would not get their traps stolen.

If a coyote was crossing a flat with a trap on his foot with no drag or no stake. That is just like a deer that was crippled with the shot not being lethal. Based on a typical code of ethics, the first lethal shot is the rightful owner of any deer.

Taking a coyote in a trap whether it is staked or dragged is blatant theft. Most states do have laws regarding trap theft and many cases have been made against trap or fur theft. The laws in most states on this issue are very clear.

The sad thing it is usually very difficult to catch the person who took the trap or coyote! I remember pulling one guy off a bar stool when coyotes were worth $70. I got my trap and coyote back but today I would press charges.

I have been on both sides of this issue.

Sorry Leonard but the talk of peg legs, bobcat issues in Nevada, sets being in sight, and needing the coyote for a contest is nothing more than “red herrings” to justify the action.

The law is the law and theft is theft.

Now bend over and let us paddle your ass! LOL!

~SH~

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2003, 05:58 PM:

Yeah? Well, they'll never take me alive.

It's been hell waiting for the other shoe to drop. "Reply With Quote" has been disabled in your honor, for the forseeable future, I might add.

Judging by my mail, that trap is a good one, I might add.

Thanks for noticing that I bit the bullet, there have been no deletes or edits; other than a few additions.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by James (Member # 104) on February 16, 2003, 08:16 PM:

The practicing MD diagnoses cholera. Nevertheless, armed with the knowledge that a different MD might, just might, diagnose a different ailment -- and buttressed by my Red Cross course completion certificate -- I stubbornly insist that the patient is quite well.

Help! Why, oh why didn't I listen to my wife!

Jim

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 17, 2003, 01:06 PM:

L: "Yeah? Well, they'll never take me alive."

ROTFLMAO!!!

Flip 'em the bird as the black helicopters descend upon you! Hahaha!

L: "It's been hell waiting for the other shoe to drop. "Reply With Quote" has been disabled in your honor, for the forseeable future, I might add."

Yeh but the copy/paste function hasn't, so put that in your pipe. LOL!

I like the new site by the way!

~SH~

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 17, 2003, 04:44 PM:

But Scott, it makes you work at it, and then we aren't subjected to twenty-five miles of bold type that everybody has already read.

Thanks for the compliment, glad you like the new Board; and I hope you drop in frequently, even if it's just to needle me.

James, James, James. You are truly offended, aren't you? I'm sorry for being a stubborn Polack. It's true, I'm unfazed and unconcerned with your expertness. But, why take it personal?

Come on, laugh it off. Hey, are you a Virgo, by chance?

Make no mistake, I'm not trivializing this solemn and worthy discusion, but it appears that you are taking life too seriously. Lighten up, dude.

Good hunting. LB

PS, I "get" all the little insults, they aren't wasted on me. I wonder how perceptive you are, as well?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 17, 2003, 04:53 PM:

It's kinda funny, but it seems that the more opinionated, the more interested in owning a piece of history. My lips are sealed!

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 17, 2003, 06:55 PM:

Doesn't matter. After that hint we can make an accurate guess.

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 17, 2003, 07:35 PM:

edit

[ February 17, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

Posted by James (Member # 104) on February 17, 2003, 08:05 PM:

Leonard, you opened this thread with a set of statements and questions that struck me as rather vacuous. How do trappers FEEL about their traps and fur being stolen? Well, gee. How did you feel when your vehicle was stolen? How does anyone feel about the theft of their property.

(Or did you intentionally sound vacuous, just to be provocative? If so, you can't complain at the replies.)

You went on: "I sort of feel like it was accidental, but now it's my animal? Would that be mistaken? Show me the error of my ways."

I don't care in the slightest whether you're concerned or fazed by my expertise. Claiming that you're unimpressed by legal opinions or the latest 5-4 Supreme Court decision is just a red herring you tossed out, apparently because you don't have any substantive argument to offer on the ownership issue you raised. Don't divert the issue to whether my expertise impresses you; tell me why I and a lot of others are wrong.

I just offered an informed opinion in answer to your questions. If you wish to disregard it, that's fine. But the list of informed trapper opinions you've disregarded or tried to rationalize your way around here is pretty impressive. Making the conclusion inescapable that your statement, "Show me the error of my ways," was not sincere. You clearly don't want to be shown any such thing.

This all suggests that you must have started this thread just to play games with the trappers here. I'm not interested in playing in your games anymore, so I'll leave you now to your little cyber-fiefdom.

Jim

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 17, 2003, 08:22 PM:

[Eek!]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 17, 2003, 08:39 PM:

James, due to hospitality and such, I didn't want to suggest that your comprehension needed a little work, or I would have asked you to review what I considered to be extenuating circumstances. Do I need to go back and highlight it for you? I don't think you were interested in anything other than burning me at the stake. Just because I have the spunk to counter your own flawed reasoning, you abandon any pretense of objectivity and get surly, in my house. [Smile]

Not once or twice, but several times. If this was the "fiefdom" you think it to be, I'd have stepped on this troll a long time ago. And, if you keep lipping off, I may have to suspend your posting priviliges until you sober up. Now go kick your dog....and grow up.

Posted by James (Member # 104) on February 18, 2003, 09:42 AM:

Extenuating circumstances? As to WHICH incident?

"But, every time it happened to me, it was at night, on a stand, and it was a huge surprise to find out the animal was in a trap." - Leonard

"I answered "not really" as to taking the trap but I did the first time I had it happen to me. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I found it." - Leonard

"No catskin, not really, this is something that is frequently talked about in my organization, which has almost no members that trap. But I know that the trap is taken, sometimes, and sometimes not." - Leonard

It does sound to this visitor as if you and your buddies are in the habit of ripping off trappers. Or did I misinterpret something?

"Sorry, Doug, ain't buying it. I say I found it." - Leonard

This is pretty much the same thing you told me. Making it seem as if you really don't care either what trappers think OR what the law says.

As I said before, I did not come here to try you over any particular incident. I'm more concerned about educating the other hunters (at least the open-minded ones) on this forum.

As for you, the bottom line is this: you are the administrator on what purports to be a hunting forum. Like it or not, deserved or not, that makes you an authority figure and role model for the posters here. As such you should be promoting good ethics, sportsmanship, and respect for the law (and if you have doubts about what the law is, you should educate yourself). You shouldn't be promoting or making excuses for the ripping off of some competing furbearer user groups' tools and harvest!

You are right, and to my own embarassment, I am guilty of being rude in your house. But more shame on you, sir!

Now go delete my posting privileges, before you make another angry reply and I face the temptation of being rude again.

Jim

Posted by Barry (Member # 34) on February 18, 2003, 03:45 PM:

Wow;What a thread.I need a beer,maybe prozact.

Posted by Limelight (Member # 113) on February 18, 2003, 04:42 PM:

My first post on the site, and it has to be this one [Wink]

First of all, I'm a trapper. I trap in Iowa; where it is illegal to tamper with a trap, and if caught, violators usually are strung up by the ankles. (Like it should be)
I can understand accidentally shooting the yote; but taking the yote as well as the trap is inexcusable, tag or not. You said this was 30 years a go-if this was before the fur boom, tags likely weren't even required. Generally, even if a trap has no tag it is illegal to tamper with anyways-it still isn't your property. It's water under the bridge now; but you should have left the yote and trap after you shot the yote. Whether or not the yote might have won you a "prize" in a group hunting contest is not a worthy cause for theft, neither is ignorance of the law.

Secondly, as a trapper, I took offense at you saying that you've shot many yotes without feet. To this day, I do not know of a trap short of perhaps a primitive bear sized trap capable of doing such a thing. You are insinuating that somehow traps are cruel devices, which simply is not true. If I showed you the paw of one of my trapped fox or coyote, you wouldn't be able to tell the differance between the two paws.

BTW, Excellent site guys.

Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on February 18, 2003, 05:24 PM:

When I was a kid of 14 I was scrounging around out in the country with my Benjamin .22 cal pellet gun. I stumbled onto a trap and thought someone had lost it so I took it home. At the time I didn't even consider that it may have belonged to someone engaged in business. I now realize the error of my ways. I wonder how many times trappers loose their traps to kids who don't know better?

PS. Later on in life I showed a trapper one of my honey holes and it hasn't produced squat for years since. So much for ethics! I learned to never show anyone a sweet spot that you don't trust or is just a casual acquaintance.

[ February 18, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 18, 2003, 05:46 PM:

Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Limelight.

Are you strictly trapping, or are you also involved in calling?

Sorry to upset you with a true statement about coyotes with missing paws. Do you believe that I would lie about it for some reason, or are you positive that it can't happen and never has?

To set the record straight, I have accidentally shot exactly two coyotes that I later found were in traps and I'm not positive if I have killed four or five with a missing paw? None recently. As I recall, two were back feet, which doesn't make much sense to me, unless they were urinating and scratching?

Anyway, that's it, you're going to have to take my word for the statement and not assume that it was said just to piss you off.

For James. You get the last word, if you will keep your promise and find somewhere else to spend your time. You have already said everything, (twice, maybe three times?) and I'm not going to ban you or suspend your posting priviliges. Remember, although I believe in it; the first ammendment isn't an absolute "right" on this Board. You have had your say. Adios.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Limelight (Member # 113) on February 18, 2003, 06:27 PM:

Are you saying the coyotes lost feet due to traps, or aren't you sure? A trap will NOT do that to a foot, unless temperatures get cold enough to freeze the foot while in the trap, which is still rare, and the trapper leaves the animal in the trap for an extended amount of time. But, I do have a hard time believing that a trap caused the injury, perhaps if conditions were perfect, but you said it happened four or five times? Strange. Of all the animals I've caught, the worst I've ever seen is bruised flesh, which wasn't visible until the animal was skinned. How utterly strange. I trap a farm that borders ours, and one night I let the dog out and it took off after a rabbit and didn't come back. The next morning I found the dog in one of my canine sets on the farm, in a trap. He was quite happy to see me, but no injuries resulted, even though it was near zero that night, no frozen paw. The dog didn't limp or anything to that extent. I've also caught dozens of barn cats which were released, with no injuries, even on cold nights. You shooting 5 yotes without paws, is very strange indeed, if caused by traps.

Posted by foxtail (Member # 114) on February 18, 2003, 06:46 PM:

First off we will assume that this was really 30 years ago. You are a grown man who now knows right from wrong. Taking the animal or trap is wrong, I'm sure you realize this. Could you have gotten in trouble? Of course. Did you? No, Only from your own conscience.
I have a real dislike for trap thieves, always will. It is no more right to take someone's trap or catch than it would be for me to take your rifle while you are in the outhouse.
If you still feel that it is ok to steal from trappers, then this is the slob attitude that the antis love for some of us to have so that they can use it against all of us. I really hopr that this doesn't apply here. I would really hate to see a site such as this one tainted with our enemies in our own ranks.

New member Foxtail

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 18, 2003, 06:49 PM:

In fairness to Leonard, there is some novice trappers that don't know any better than to wire their traps to something and the coyote breaks the wire and runs off with the trap.

I have seen this happens with SOME landowners who are trying to solve their own coyote problems but do not have a lot of knowledge about trapping.

These coyotes that are packing traps, AND THIS IS RARE BUT IT HAS HAPPENED, will lose their feet, so yes, it does happen.

In addition to that, in years gone by, SOME coyotes that were trapped in sharp jawed traps would fight the trap hard enough and leave the paw behind. Wet bitch coyotes trying to get back to the den were the worst.

Again, yes it used to happen.

Modern day traps with proper modifications have virtually eliminated this problem from days gone by.

With that said, I also have seen numerous peg legs created by deer hunters with high powered rifles. Probably more are caused by high powered rifles than by traps.

Hope this helps!

~SH~

Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on February 18, 2003, 08:56 PM:

A few years before Struble died he told me a story about a time they were stopped at night in Nevada just off a dirt road. He had stopped to eat a sandwich and have some coffee during the less productive time at night. They were talking and sharing stories about hunting and just having a good ol' time. He said he was throwing half eaten sandwitches out the window.

After a couple hours or so they decided to begin hunting again and just for grins turned on the tape and swung the light around a few times. That's when they found the coyote. This coyote had stumps for back legs and it had crawled or hobbled from who knows where to eat the half eaten sandwitches they'd trown out. Of course he put it out of it's misery.

Every indication was that it had lost both back legs from a trap. The skin from around the bone had been pulled off and what was left had healed around the leg bones. Looked almost like a drumstick. Don't ask me how that kind of thing can happen but he said he could see marks on his stumps left by the trap. The coyote was using the bones of his rear legs to walk or crawl on.

Usually I let a person do as he pleases but I'm beginning to not like trappers. For one, after the way they've been treating Leonard, I've come to the conclusion they're a bunch of heartless bastards who take pleasure in kicking a man when he's down. For another, as has been my experience, they won't hesitate to trap your honey holes and eliminate almost all animals from the hunting areas.

To add a little fuel to the fire, I used to support trappers but after what I've seen here I'm gonna forget about that. First, there ain't a whole lot of trappers out there and it costs me a lot politically to stick by them. Why the hell do I wanna do that after seeing the way they been treating Leonard here and how they'll trap your hunting areas and ruin them? And then what about the pain and suffering they cause animals? At least we hunters seek to kill them quick.

So lay off or I'll start meaning what I just wrote.

[ February 18, 2003, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]

Posted by foxtail (Member # 114) on February 18, 2003, 11:45 PM:

Frank, Clearly you are not one of the people who will stand up for your brothers. You look for a reason to dislike trappers by making up a bunch of crap.
A thief is a thief, plain and simple. If someone is a trap theif, thjey are not any better than the guy who goes into your house and takes your grangfather's gun you have cherished for years.
For you to come up with the B.S. you just farted out of your mouth is proof that you would steal traps if you had the chance. I feel bad for you as if we, the trappers go down, you are the next one the antis will go after. If you don't thimk that this is true then you should pull your head out of your duffle bag and look around. It is later than you think, and the wolves are knocking at your door. Are you going to toss your brothers to them just to save your self for an extra few seconds? I think you would. I feel sorry for the sporting world to have to call you one of us because you clearlyu have no honor or loyalty to any one except your self. You also demonstrate through your words that you are so selfish with the game that you can't see clearly. If you really believe the crap you just said then you are the biggest threat to your own part of the outdoor life. You sir are a detriment.

Also look to the post before yours, wiley make an important point. Trappers do not take both legs off of an animal. Bullets do though. I can prove it , I took a deer this year by accidently blowing the back legs out from it. I followed up that shot right away and the deer died within 1 minute of my first shot. How many of you spotlighters do you think have wounded game and just left them? I think you really want the antis to win. Your attitude makes you pathetic.

I would hope that your friend wouldn't take anyone's stuff anymore. I think you would.

[ February 18, 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: foxtail ]

Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 19, 2003, 04:30 AM:

I have taken a few coyote by both front feet and several by one back foot. I have never heard of anyone catching a coyote by both back feet. I can say that the coyotes caught by both front feet were immobilized. They could never fight the trap hard enough to do the damage that was described. Very little catch circle and they just looked up at the approach.

Randy

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 19, 2003, 06:26 AM:

SOME of the same novice trappers that wire their traps will also set multiple traps. So yes, this COULD RARELY happen as well.

I am more inclined to believe that the legs were probably shot off and simply appeared to be trapped because these type of novice trappers are so rare.

I have seen far more legs blown off with rifle shots. How do I know? Traps catch the paw, rifle wounds are usually higher than traps. Think about it. This isn't rocket science.

The "drumstick" description sounds like a rifle wound, not a trap.

Frank,

I cannot hardly believe what I just read. First, as far as the "pain and suffering" of trapping, that sounds like something taken right out of a PETA publication. I can't believe you would bite into that crap.

I have caught myself in traps many times by accident. Does it hurt? A little at first but not after the initial snap of the trap. With animals the paw quickly goes numb due to restricted circulation and the animal is simply confined.

I have snuck up on coyotes in traps that would watch birds fly by, I have seen them sleeping, I have seen them scratch themselves, I have seen them yawn, I have seen them snap at flys, ALL WHILE THEY WERE IN TRAPS. You're going to tell me of "pain and suffering"? LOL! Good luck defending that one in front of reasonable people.

"Pain and Suffering"....putting human emotions and feelings in animals. There is a big word for that. It's called anthropomorphism. It's also known as the "Disney mentality" of humanizing animals.

You gave two justifications for disliking trappers:

1. How Leonard was treated
2. Perceived competition

That's pretty weak!

Leonard was defending his actions and that's what got the trappers upset, not admitting to his action so many years ago. James clearly pointed out Leonards attitude on this issue. Keep in mind that I consider Leonard a good friend and have a tremendous amount of respect for his abilities as a caller.

Secondly, if you can't handle any competition then you need to hang up your guns. Calling competition is more of an issue with trappers than trapping competition is for callers. It's easier for a caller to move to the coyotes than it is for trappers to. Callers simply pick up their gun and move. Trappers have to pull their line and reset. I have yet to see a coyote with a brand on it so I wouldn't get to possesive.

To drive a wedge between recreational coyote callers and trappers is a serious mistake on your part. We are not eachothers enemies, we are each others allies. The animal rights activists are our enemies.

The thought of a fellow sportsman supporting the A/R groups in wanting to put an end to trapping due to a selfish concern with competition turns my stomach.

~SH~

[ February 19, 2003, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on February 19, 2003, 08:47 AM:

Wiley;
You hit upon what I was getting at. There's a wedge being driven between trappers and hunter here. That's the whole point of what I wrote.

I'd hope those flaming Leonard would come to realize that. A lot of our perceptions are driven by how people are treated and if you flame someone enough they're eventually gonna dislike you.

That's why I said to "lay off" because your flaming a person who has supported trappers thru his club membership for decades. I know because I used to be president of the org.... Why would the trappers be so stupid as to bite the hand that helps them?

Posted by FoxTrapperSteph (Member # 116) on February 19, 2003, 08:56 AM:

I can't beleive the crap I just saw spewed from Frank above! It reminds me of the hound hunters and fox chasers here years ago when fur prices were high. They thought the trappers were stealing all their animals and banded together with antis to try to hurt the trappers.2 counties had fox taking,both hunting and trapping, banned. That was the chasers who did that. In other states in the south the coon hunters sided with antis against trappers. And what good is it for a chaser or coon hunter to do that? Nowadays the anti groups are more radical and animal rights than ever,back then they were a bit more welfare oriented.The coon hunter and chaser are in their sites ,right along with trappers.Predator callers are right up there too.The antis are against the taking of ANY game PERIOD, some are so goofy they think Mt lions should be allowed to kill people because we need culling too.Tell that to the family of the mt lion victim!

Frank,you need to learn more about the anti groups, they are scary when you really get down and dirty in the research.Their original guru, Peter Singer, advocates infanticide and bestiality! And the followers of animal rights just love this guy! Or what about the ALF and ELF, who delight in their terrorist activities all done "for the animals and the earth"? Peta frickin supports them, HSUS has a former one on staff that I know of.Oh want to hear some garbage that HSUS spewed out about traps? They said that children get in them( leghold) and have been killed or maimed.OH REALLY????? That many a hunting dog has been put down because they got in a leghold trap? BULLS**T!!!!!I have rabbit hunters who WANT ME TO TRAP their farms and are not concerned if a beagle gets in a trap,they KNOW it will only bruise the dog and the dog will still hunt right after they release it. They WANT the foxes and coons gone gone gone,as many as I can get.

Oh BTW I prefer to call leghold traps FOOTHOLD traps,becuase thats where they grab the animal, on the foot/paw,not up on the leg!

That coyote you shot- I have heard of peglegs too- some were caught in fences, the rest were from bad shots by PREDATOR HUNTERS! BUT will you see me run to HSUS or PETA or Fund for Animals and whine about those awful predator callers who pegleg coyotes? NO NO NO,why would I shoot myself in the foot(no pun intended)???? I propose more education for hunters and trappers,so that goof ups do not happen,and more time on the shooting range,ect,not animal rights based emotional garbage legislation!

I would like to be able to trap or hunt what I want using the proper tools of the trade, so long as the animals are common.I want to be able to help folks out who have varmint problems.I don't hunt fox yet,but after this last trapping season,I want to get into it. I want to have the privelage to do that, I don't want Petaheads who think infanticide is ok to tell me I can't hunt or trap this or that!

Frank,if you want to know the TRUTH about trapping JUST ASK! All us trappers here will tell ya what ya want.

Sorry about being so emotional in this rant,but I'm a woman LOL! Also today is another round of "fight the antis" in MD,with one of their rediculous anti trapping bills of the season up for hearing today-they want to ban foot hold traps,again! So I am in no mood to see hunters saying crap about trappers!

Oh Frank- read my siggy below....

Posted by FoxTrapperSteph (Member # 116) on February 19, 2003, 09:11 AM:

"Wiley;
You hit upon what I was getting at. There's a wedge being driven between trappers and hunter here. That's the whole point of what I wrote. "

The only wedge being driven here is by your own doing. Really I don't hate you,just angry for your uneducated words.I would stand by you in a second,just ask.

As for trappers taking all "your" game, I would like to point out that some trappers don't have the morals as others.Don't blame ALL trappers for what one or 2 did. Also furbearers are cyclic in populations, you may have 5 great years, then 5 bad years,but after 5 bad years, there should be 5 good years again. I trapped this one farm last year,caught 9 fox and for years before the "guys" over there would shoot at least that many fox a season.However they let the foxes rot( dummies),so they don't mind me trapping.They just wanted them out to try to save some rabbits.This year there was squat there,I caught nothing,not even a coon or possum,so I pulled. This year the fox were wiped out by disease in my area, so I assume thats why this spot went dead.Maybe next year I will catch 9 fox again, maybe for 5 years running, then the disease might hit again,who knows.

As for coons, I thought I wiped out a spot last year,caught 12, the people there had problems with them,so I trapped to help thin the coons out real well. This year,despite constant crazy cold snowy weather,I caught 8 coons back in there.I would have had more if not for the weather,the place was pull of coon tracks when I first scouted this season.

Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on February 19, 2003, 12:14 PM:

You know what? I just realized I'm dealing with a bunch of trolls. They're either too boneheaded to understand or trying to drive the wedge. It's working. HMMMMM, maybe I should contact my congressman! [Mad]

Posted by Limelight (Member # 113) on February 19, 2003, 02:19 PM:

Frank, I don't know what to say. Steph and Wiley covered most of the points already. Trolls? Hardly. We are just trying to defend trappers.

Trappers draining your honey hole? Well, if they have permission, they have permission, and have as much right to trap as you do to hunt.

A trap causing the loss of back legs? Bollocks. Have you ever seen a trap? They grip the paw; not the leg, even if a high grip is acquired, the trap is not sufficient to cut off a leg. If so, I'd be missing quite a few fingers/hand!

Hating us trappers merely because were were upset at Leonard? Well, I'm sorry you don't understand where we are coming from. What Leonard did was theft; and there is no reason he shouldn't receive criticism for his actions. NONE.

Posted by FoxTrapperSteph (Member # 116) on February 19, 2003, 02:49 PM:

Frank, and others with his opinions, please look at these pics. This shows the locations of a trap on the paw and the lack of damage to the paw.Coyotes are the same way, just big smelly foxes who require a larger trap is all.I don't have many yotes here,not yet.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/gangoror/lst?.dir=/paws+of+trapped+animals-the+truth&.view=t

If that won't come up,try

http://photos.yahoo.com/gangoror

and go to "paws..." album

And in case anyone is wondering , the fox in the first 3 photos was taken on damage control in summer,thats why the short fur you see in pic 1.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 19, 2003, 04:50 PM:

First of all, it's great that you guys network like this, I imagine somewhere there is a board with a post and a link and a negative comment or two.

Second, I very much doubt that you are here for any cordial reason. Should I lock this thread, we will probably not see this group again.

Third, Frank is correct about one thing. While I may have gained a lot of insight on trapping interests, which I didn't have before, I am becoming bitter about the amount of shrill condemnations over an honest mistake. I'm not a god damned thief, and this same theme has been repeated more times than I care to go back and count them up; but it's a bunch. He thinks you are trolls, what have you done to make anyone believe otherwise?

Fourth, I really can't explain the damage that Frank talked about, especially both feet, but I want to mention something that I believe is being overlooked. Some traps cause more damage than others. I have heard of using wire or offset jaws to minimise damage, keep the jaws from closing all the way, but let's not insult the people here. I think I could recognize gunshot wounds as well as anybody. The missing paws that I remember seeing were closer to looking like they were hacksawed.

Further, I believe trapping interests were "encouraged" to redesign these traps so they cause less damage, not for the welfare of the animal. Years ago, and on the trap that I have in my posession, they close pretty tight. If you shut off circulation for long enough; sure the paw goes numb, and if the animal escapes, he may be walking on dead tissue. I remember looking at one coyote that had walked on the nub and had developed what looked like a callous, or scab? It had to hurt, to put any weight on it? Perhaps they gnaw on it, until it becomes smooth, seems logical to me?

Same thing with snares. I have never used a snare, but I read somewhere that the "stop" or choker has been changed so that they can't keep tightening. Now, way back when; this is where I have heard of flesh being pulled off the bone, winding up with the condition such as Frank is describing.

I know Frank, and I know Jim Struble...RIP. We both attended State Board meetings for years, as members and officers of the California State Varmint Callers Association, many times on different sides of issues. Neither of them could be described as a friend of mine, and Frank would be the first to admit it. As he has said before, I have every reason to hate his guts. But, as with many other things in life, I got over it. He knows very well that coyotes get shot accidently in traps, and has probably talked to enough predator hunters to know that it's rare, but certainly not unheard of.

Personally, it hasn't happened to me in many years, and perhaps there were a few amateurs out setting traps when the prices were way up there? And maybe they didn't use the best methods, I don't know a thing about it? But it could explain a few things?

But what peeves me is the number of total strangers that come in here and cast doubt on things that are said to the point of calling me a liar, and diagnosing things that they don't know about. I don't fabricate anything, and I am used to people taking my word for what it is worth.

I seriously think that this is totally out of hand, and there are people reading this thread that are going to think twice about offering even token support for my ignorance of your ways. I don't think that the bandwagoners have taken the time to read everything, which would require well over an hour to do.

The reason I think this is that there is a lot of repetition, going over arguments made days ago, offering nothing new, except that they hate trap stealers with a passion, and I'm the boogieman. Being located in California is another red flag, don't think I don't know that. Nothing new, blood in the water attracts sharks.

There is a lot of rude comments, and I'm suffering them by attempting to placate the hysteria, because I brought up the subject, in the first place.

This is not a good reason to insult me here. One or two words of support for my feelings and that summons the collective wrath. Rather than diplomatic, after allowing you folks to vent repeatedly, my impulse is to tell all of you to hit the road, if that's all you have to say.

I have explained in painful detail what I did and why. I have no interest in rusty traps, and at the time it was something I hadn't come across before, but in my mind, I didn't give the greater question of property much thought.

You are way out of line, and I think Frank could be right, you are not accomplishing much by beating up on me. I figured it out by the third post. The rest of the crap is way overboard, and I'm trying to be nice about it, but I have a temper that I'm not proud of and I have claws and those reactions would be just as unproductive. I feel like there is a concentrated attempt to provoke me over a petty incident from a long time ago.

Now, all of my explanations are lost on trappers and I should have saved my breath. One thing I can say is that this is not a positive experience, and the resentment will probably continue long after this dialogue ends.

For sure, I don't want it to end by locking it. I don't want you to send others here that never heard of Huntmasters until you sent them the link. Every point has been made before, it's impossible to miss the message.

If you don't have any new perspective, try courtesy for a change, say hi in the members forum, and don't focus on this topic without further ado, and go for the throat.

I don't want to edit the crap, or delete, or dump the whole thread because there is something of value. But, I may be forced to do that if you push me too much. Not a threat; I'm appealing to reason. LB

Posted by BD (Member # 120) on February 19, 2003, 05:25 PM:

Leonard,
Have you ever sold any of the pelts of the coyotes, fox or cats you've taken ?

Posted by lokltrkr (Member # 123) on February 19, 2003, 06:00 PM:

a thief by any other name is still a thief

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 19, 2003, 06:15 PM:

Guys,

Please stop this attack on Leonard!

I don't know who sent all of you over here but don't read more into this than was presented.

I have trapped my entire life and can understand someone who found a coyote in the middle of a flat on a wooden drag and not fully understanding the situation.

Pride is an issue here so just let it go, please!

I think he got the point!

I relate to the trappers on this issue but hate to see a public flogging that isn't my own. LOL!

I'm used to the abuse and it doesn't bother me as it's only words on a computer screen anyway. Pretty meaningless in the big scheme of things.

Take care my friend!

~SH~

[ February 19, 2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 19, 2003, 06:22 PM:

You've gone above and beyond Leonard. I'd pull the plug on this, were I you. But, you obviously have far more patience than I do.

- DAA

Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on February 19, 2003, 06:22 PM:

One thing you have to keep in mind is that Trappers as a whole are the most paranoid bunch of people you will find. Not only do they get PETA and HSUS attacking them they also get a large percentage of hunters who will stand right next to the Anti-crowd and twist the knife. Actually, with hunters it was more like the knife came from the back too. Of course it goes deeper than that, just read the history of trapping in the US, a trappers life was one of competition and paranoia and outright evil. They have worked long and hard to fix the problems of the 1800’s but the reputation still sticks like it or not. Like a dog that has been whipped, they tend to bite at the first sign of trouble, deserved or not. It does get old knowing that your worst enemy in the woods is a fair percentage of hunters. One of my calling partners was just telling me today that he had to hide in a crack in the rim rock while checking his sets, two elk hunters drove by on their 4-wheeler. That’s normal for trappers – do you wonder why they get all worked up about this stuff? Trapping is hard work – much harder than calling, running a trap line is a 7-day a week job, all they want is the respect you’d give another predator caller.

Honestly there are old traps still in use that might damage a leg or not, modern equipment not withstanding. Offset jaws on traps, IN MY OPINION [Smile]

just hold better than the standard jaw traps, they do not clamp any less on the foot, (that would allow the foot to slide causing damage) so circulation is not and issue between to two styles. Snares – Deer stops are to allow a deer’s leg out of a snare – they are not to prevent injury to the target animal- are only required in a few states, mostly east of the Rockies I believe. Snares are great tools, better than traps in my opinion, they can be set two ways, to kill and to collar and hold like a chained up dog in your back yard. Foot snares are pretty rare today and I don’t know what if any damage they would do, better for Bear or Lion I would think, but out of my realm of experience.

So go easy on your feelings about the trappers and try to understand they are more just taking out frustrations in general than attacking you in person.

Edit: Just saw them last shots - Thats totally uncalled for, your embarassing!
sheesh.

[ February 19, 2003, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]

Posted by BD (Member # 120) on February 19, 2003, 06:28 PM:

Wiley,
It needs to be pointed out that every predator hunter who sells pelts and/or hunts public lands has benefitted from trapper involvement in the political process. I don't think many realize the battles that have been fought and funded by trappers that they benefit from.

Posted by TrapperDan (Member # 124) on February 19, 2003, 07:04 PM:

Hi guys , interesting thread !!!!

Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on February 19, 2003, 07:35 PM:

You know I went over to the board where this trolling was coming from (of which I am a member), tried to call them on it, and promptly had the thread deleted. LOL, Leonard, you may not have started on the moral high ground but you just might end on it if you promise never to do it again! [Big Grin]

Ken

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 19, 2003, 08:02 PM:

Cat, I really thought I was clear on that, and I believe these people have not taken the time to review everything I wrote to explain my actions and motivations.

I just got an e-mail from James offering advice. He says that I just need to admit it was wrong. I guess I can do that, since none of the facts and motivations seem to be sinking in?

There will be some people that will read this thread and decide that the abuse is way over the top.

So, Leonard suffers some embarassment, and the trapping community looks like a bunch of bullies, to a few of the assembled reviewers.

Good hunting. LB

PS thanks, I know it took some courage on your part; and I know your dog is still gonna get me.

[ February 19, 2003, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2003, 08:03 PM:

I'm with you DAA.Pull the plug.Leonard, you sure earned my respect for letting this go on as long as it has. [Smile]

GOOD HUNTING Chad........

[ February 19, 2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 19, 2003, 08:08 PM:

Yeah, guess it is the only thing that makes sense, at this point? Understand, I don't like "hiding" from sight, but some things need doing.

I'm very sorry about this disruption. Let's get the focus back to predator hunting, where it belongs. LB

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