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Author
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Topic: Can we talk about trapped animals?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2003 09:58 AM
For our trapping members out there.
Let's just say a mistake has been made. It happens, right?
How do you feel about a trap and an animal that has gone missing? Is it a dastardly deed, or part of the price of doing business?
Never trapped, I don't know what the reaction would be to a "tampered" set.
The statute of limitations has expired anyway, but I sort of feel like it was accidental, but now it's my animal? Would that be mistaken? Show me the error of my ways. Let's say I only saw the animal, not the trap.
Honest opinion?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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WhiteMtnCur
Knows what it's all about
Member # 5
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posted February 13, 2003 11:01 AM
Leonard, this is quite a topic.
Trap theft is a big problem for almost all trappers. I personally have to deal with it a fair bit, and I won't even touch on the guys who longline coon and mink in the midwest.
Personally, I get very angry when I have an $18 trap with a $20 coyote in it go missing. It's part of the business I know, and I do my best to get over it quickly and move on with the rest of the traps I have set, but it still hurts.
I try to avoid theft, setting far off roads, around the hill, behind the high sage/cedar, etc. But it still happens sometimes. And there are times when the best place to catch the animal is within sight of the road. A lot of times for me, in the areas I trap, a coyote in a trap is a pretty sight to the ranchers who see it before I do, but there are all the callers and other "outdoorsman" who feel the need to take all they can, and a coyote in a trap just becomes a special little gift to them.
Even using cable stakes to keep my traps anchored (for my sake, speed, ease, not to mention theft protection) I've had people shoot the cable to steal the trap.
In most states laws prohibit tampering with a trapper's traps and sets. I can understand the situation where you sit down to call and right away there's a coyote standing up pretty close looking at you, so you shoot him and when you go to retrieve he's in a trap. I've done it once myself. What I did was write on a piece of paper at the truck, "Sorry I shot your coyote, I didn't know he was in a trap." And left it rolled up in the chain of the trap, and hoped eagles didn't beat the trapper to the coyote.
So, who does the animal belong too? I strongly believe it's the trapper's. He set the trap, caught the animal, you just beat him to it. It's still his animal, even though you dispatched it for him (God forbid you did it with the gun you hunt deer with).
Posts: 97 | From: Nevada | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2003 12:08 PM
I appreciate your response Trevor, and we are speaking candidly of course, so no offense intended or taken.
But, every time it happened to me, it was at night, on a stand, and it was a huge surprise to find out the animal was in a trap.
Secondly, this is BLM land, and consider what happens to a wounded buck that is shot and killed by another hunter, who then claims it. I've seen that happen many times, maybe it's not a fair argument. I don't know trapping protocol and wonder if I'm expected to know?
Third, it seems to me that a set shouldn't be within easy sight of a gravel road, there are a lot more ignorant people driving around than I.
Fourth, motivation. Contest hunt, I "needed" the animal, and didn't even think twice that it might be stealing. Snares are completely different, I think, but this animal was standing there, very much alive and natural. Night time, eyes right there, you need to shoot quick or they are gone.
Anyway, I wouldn't do it intentionally, of course. But does the guy have absolute legal, prosecutable authority, because the trap belongs to him, even though it's government land? Sincerely, I don't know the answer.
Good hunting. LB
PS let's say the guy has unlimited resources, puts out two hundred traps across the road from a feedlot or dump in full public view, on public land and any number of people can see those animals out there. Is he protected, beyond all question? Can someone be arrested for a crime?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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catskin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 51
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posted February 13, 2003 12:09 PM
Shooting by mistake, ok, it was a mistake, taking coyote, hmmm, ok, little rude but it’s better than leaving a cut in half shot gunned carcass in the trap, but you took the trap too?
You took the TRAP!?!
ACK! My dogs will find you.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ February 13, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]
Posts: 76 | From: Oregon | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2003 12:13 PM
No catskin, not really, this is something that is frequently talked about in my organization, which has almost no members that trap. But I know that the trap is taken, sometimes, and sometimes not.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted February 13, 2003 02:22 PM
Well I don't know squat about trapping protcol but to me it's like this... if I work on your house ($ coming in) and you don't pay me ($ lost) that's one thing...
But if you keep "my tools" (Opportunity lost) I can't just shine it on and go work for someone else...
Much the same for the trapper, right or wrong to trap where he does, he's got as much right to "snaggle 'em" off that land as anyone does to shoot 'em, if that's the law.
So someone took his coyote ($ coming in) and they didn't leave a $twenty-spot ($ lost), that's one thing... Don't take dudes "opportunity"...
Just my .0468 cents worth (two cents, after taxes)
Jeff 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2003 03:24 PM
Strictly because of lobbying efforts by trappers, nonresidents aren't allowed to hunt bobcat in Nevada, forever. Total waste of a resource, through the good times and the bad times, when they weren't worth the trouble.
This isn't a case of someone robbing a trapline, but I wonder if the trapper understands that what he thinks is concealed, is visible as hell at night?
I answered "not really" as to taking the trap but I did the first time I had it happen to me. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I found it. When I mentioned it to club members, I got the other side of the story. Statute of limitations apply to pilloring the perp, as well. God, it was thirty years ago!
Krusty, I don't know for sure, but these things are supposed to be identified? I think? That one wasn't; a drag that was on a dry lake bed. (of all places) Who knows how far the animal had managed to run. No, I don't feel like I was messing with a man's livelyhood, I rather think he was negligent.
So don't get all sanctimonious on me, dude. ![[Cool]](cool.gif) It's a minor problem, as it affects callers, and the careful trapper already knows there are thiefs out there. But that guy is not starving because of me, that's for sure. It's a rare occurance, but if you are out long enough, it seems to happen, sooner or later.
By the way, I have killed far more coyotes that were missing a paw, than in a trap.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted February 13, 2003 05:33 PM
I sure didn't mean to sound sanctimonious, I just thought we were hypotheticalizin'... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I shoulda used "one" instead of "you"...
...wasn't the shoe on the other foot recently... is this déja vu? lol
I only meant that if his "tools of the trade" were where he thought he left them... that's where he should find them... but you now say they might not of been where he'd have found them anyway...
This kind of thing goes on a lot in rockclimbing, a climber will leave some gear on a climb... sometimes amounting to hundreds of dollars, sometimes because their waiting in line, or they have done part of the climb and gone back to the ground for the night, other times their too tired and need a couple days rest before their strong enough to go again... whatever the reason... we have a real easy to follow set of ethics...
If it's not yours... it's not yours.
Nothing can change that.
But we don't often have rock cliffs just get up and walk away with our gear... they are usually right where we expect them to be, right where they were yesterday and for the last two or three million years... not the case with critters and traps though, eh?
That's part of why trapping in Washington has all but been eliminated.
Please forgive my ignorance, and do not confuse it with insult.
Jeff
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Doug
Knows what it's all about
Member # 31
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posted February 13, 2003 05:44 PM
Leonard,
The Pa. Game Commission regulations are very clear on this....."It is unlawful to disturb traps or remove any wildlife from the traps of another without specific permission." If you stold the trap and animal while in possession of a firearm and without a trapping license then you may have broken additional game laws.
Let's say you park your truck along a public road..... you don't expect that someone will come along and say "finders-keepers" and drive away with your truck do you? Taking something that's not your's is theft.
Doug
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My mountain cur thinks I'm God.
Posts: 69 | From: Northern Colorado | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2003 05:49 PM
So, tell us about those ugly pitons left behind by hundreds of climbers and who gets to remove them. I think at least Joshua Tree has a policy. Then there's all the rigging & poop being dropped off El Capitan. What's up with that?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2003 05:51 PM
Sorry, Doug, ain't buying it. I say I found it. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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John/Alaska
Knows what it's all about
Member # 25
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posted February 13, 2003 05:54 PM
Up here in my country it is a crime to tamper with a trap and considered theft if you take an animal from anothers trap. Traplines here are generally well respected and are bought and sold. The only time that we seem to have much trap theft problems is doing moose & caribou hunting seasons. The city folk just can't resist having a souvenior. Most trappers pull their steel at the end of the season and don't usually place them until just before the trapping season which is after moose closes in most cases. Also if you know what to look for you can usually spot a trappers cache of traps out in the field. Also traps and snares are not that hidden because they don't have to be to work. Also most trappers around here flag their locations.
About 3 years ago a well known "biologist" that works for the animal rights people was flying an area and spotted a wolf in a set. He landed and released the wounded wolf. He even filmed himself doing it. Well a Fed and a state biologist who were in the area and very much against this anti tried then to save the wounded wolf by performing field surgeryafter they darted it. The wolf died. Anyway the anti biologist and the well funded eastern group that supports him were not charged with a crime because the Fed and state biologist were not allowed to do the surgery on the wolf and their appropriate bosses wanted the problem to disappear. So the two agencies chose not to press charges. The trapper, a good friend of mine brought a civil suit. Yep the anti bio and the animal rights group lost. The wolf and trap were valued at about a $1,000 but punitive damages were over $250,000.
Another two trapper friends of mine caught a guy who had been raiding their traplines. They hung him by his ankles off the Tanana river brdge until he pledged to never again do it.
Currently I'm trying to find a trap thief that has been stealing a friends traps during the big game season the past two years. We have our thoughts as not too many people hunt there but as I'm back in that country all the time I sure as hell would like to catch him for a "little" chat.
Enough story time.
Posts: 62 | From: Tok Alaska | Registered: Jan 2003
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WhiteMtnCur
Knows what it's all about
Member # 5
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posted February 13, 2003 06:51 PM
Leonard: "and we are speaking candidly of course, so no offense intended or taken."
After I read my first reply I realized that you might interpret the "you's" as being directed to you Leonard. I didn't mean it that way. I meant it to anyone who would steal a trap. Sorry about that.
Leonard: "But, every time it happened to me, it was at night, on a stand, and it was a huge surprise to find out the animal was in a trap."
The coyote that I shot in a trap was at night, and I fully understand the situation. Anyway, in a contest trapped animals aren't allowed are they? Anyway, I still believe the coyote is the property of the trapper who caught it.
Leonard: "Secondly, this is BLM land, and consider what happens to a wounded buck that is shot and killed by another hunter, who then claims it."
The buck is still running, with coyotes in traps (or any animal), they're restrained with a device that belongs to the trapper. So wouldn't that make the caught animal his property? And animals on drags are usually within 30 yards of where they're caught, and they're restrained with a trap that belongs to the trapper too.
Leonard: "Third, it seems to me that a set shouldn't be within easy sight of a gravel road, there are a lot more ignorant people driving around than I."
Most trappers I know, don't set within sight of gravel roads. I know I sure as hell don't for obvious reasons. I think what you encountered was a rare situation. Many trappers who set traps within sight of roads are setting off small two-tracks. Think about it, if you're longlining professionally, having 100 traps across 200+ miles of desert will produce better (more money) than 50 traps across 100 miles of desert (losing money). You can't check 100 traps over 200+ miles if you have to hike out to each one and get away from the road. In most cases, even me setting along roads, I'm the only one who sees the coyote. And in the few instances someone else does, it's most often a rancher.
Leonard: "Fourth, motivation. Contest hunt, I "needed" the animal, and didn't even think twice that it might be stealing."
I understand your reasoning. But do contests allowed trapped coyotes?
Leave a rolled up $20 bill in the trap chain. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But you consider a trap that a trapper has paid for, prepared and gone to the task of setting, and then checking, as something that can just be taken? That's not stealing?
Leonard: "But does the guy have absolute legal, prosecutable authority, because the trap belongs to him, even though it's government land?"
I'll get back to you in a few days with the answer to that.
Leonard: "let's say the guy has unlimited resources, puts out two hundred traps across the road from a feedlot or dump in full public view, on public land and any number of people can see those animals out there. Is he protected, beyond all question?"
You and I both know there's a vast distinction between the guys who drive roads at night with spotlights and shoot at coyotes, and people who actually go out and hunt coyotes at night seriously. Do you consider the latter to be night hunters? I don't. I consider them to be slobs. I personally do not know a single true trapper who would set any number of traps near a feedlot or dump where the public could see them. Yes it happens, but they're rare instances. Most trappers realize the fine line they're walking with trapping's future, and public relations is a big deal.
Leonard: "this is something that is frequently talked about in my organization, which has almost no members that trap."
But how many of them trapped before trapping was banned in California? I understand what you're saying, but I still believe the coyote to be the trapper's. The mistake is excusable, it's an honest mistake. But taking the coyote? And trap?
Leonard: "Strictly because of lobbying efforts by trappers, nonresidents aren't allowed to hunt bobcat in Nevada, forever."
With bobcats being the only really valuable furbearer in Nevada (with the exception of otter, which seem to be yet discovered by anyone but Morris Fenner in Nevada), I can understand why they don't want competition. I strongly disagree with it, and if I had my way, I would change that. Just like I believe all states should allow non-resident trapping. Is this a grudge against Nevada trappers?
Leonard: "Total waste of a resource, through the good times and the bad times, when they weren't worth the trouble."
Since non-residents were banned from taking bobcats in Nevada, what is the lowest price that Nevada cats have brought? $100? I think their lowest price has still been worth the effort.
Leonard: "This isn't a case of someone robbing a trapline, but I wonder if the trapper understands that what he thinks is concealed, is visible as hell at night?"
I fully understand that. I don't know of a single trapper I've talked to out West (big difference back East) who takes night hunters into consideration when setting traps. Most times after the coyote is caught he lays down and sleeps and people can drive by without him being seen. But at night, I do understand things are different. I've made the mistake myself.
Leonard: "I answered "not really" as to taking the trap but I did the first time I had it happen to me. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I found it."
The trapper bought the trap, and he owns it. Why would it become the property of someone elses?
Leonard: "I don't know for sure, but these things are supposed to be identified? I think?"
Most states require all traps have some form of identification on them. In Nevada the trap has to have a number on it that is assigned to the trapper. It is usually printed on a small piece of copper that is wrapped around the chain or swivel. It's hard to see. It can also be stamped into the metal of the trap, so you have to look for it to find it.
Leonard: "That one wasn't; a drag that was on a dry lake bed. (of all places) Who knows how far the animal had managed to run."
How do you know the trap wasn't tagged? What kind of drag? I imagine a dead limb? Yes, sometimes a coyote can go far, but the trapper has to find the animal. So I doubt it got very far from the set. You were hunting there right? So you at least thought coyotes were in the area, and the trapper must have agreed. Because he caught a coyote there.
Leonard: "Statute of limitations apply to pilloring the perp, as well. God, it was thirty years ago!"
Most coyotes caught on drags don't go farther than 50 yards with the drags used on the market today. I personally rarely have coyotes on drags go more than 25 yards if I do my part. And in some situations where I want the coyote to go farther, I have a coyote dog to help me find him.
Leonard: "No, I don't feel like I was messing with a man's livelyhood, I rather think he was negligent."
It's the trapper's fault that you found his trap and coyote?
Leonard: "By the way, I have killed far more coyotes that were missing a paw, than in a trap."
Okay, now we're treading on thin ice. You did say this was 30 years ago. A lot of things have changed in trapping since then. And anyway, if the animal lost it's foot, there wouldn't be an animal for the trapper, so what's the point in trapping? I could show you all the feet of the coyotes, foxes and bobcats I catch in my traps, and you would hardly be able to tell they've been in traps. Nothing more than a crease in the fur where the thick jaws held the foot. I release all the female bobcats I catch, they're not harmed. I will personally snap the traps that I use on my own hand. Traps aren't mutilating animals. Sorry to make a mountain of a mole-hill comment.
Leonard: "So, tell us about those ugly pitons left behind by hundreds of climbers and who gets to remove them."
Eye-sores versus traps that aren't even seen? Trying to compare Hummers to El Camino's.
John/Alaska: "Another two trapper friends of mine caught a guy who had been raiding their traplines. They hung him by his ankles off the Tanana river brdge until he pledged to never again do it."
No hard feelings towards you Leonard. I have an immense amount of respect for you, I just disagree with you on this.
And on a final note, will someone teach me how to italicize writing in a post?
Edited to try to get the italicizing right. Thanks catskin.
[ February 13, 2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: WhiteMtnCur ]
Posts: 97 | From: Nevada | Registered: Jan 2003
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catskin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 51
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posted February 13, 2003 07:11 PM
Real quick here, do (i)this(/i) around the word, use a 'b' for bold or i for italic. Now replace the ( ) with [ ] I used the ( ) only for the sample above.
Good Post BTW, you laid it out well.
Posts: 76 | From: Oregon | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2003 07:48 PM
It's even easier than that. You go to the bottom of the page, to the right of the instant graemlins, click on italics and follow instrucions.
BTW I still have that trap, there are no identifying marks on it, or the chain, and yes, I have a grudge against Nevada trappers now but it had nothing to do with it, then. What do you expect me to do if I find a twenty dollar bill blowing across the road? Wait for the owner to show up? That coyote could have come from half a mile on the other side of the lake, nothing to prevent it, and the road circled around it. You know what should have, and could have happened to those that hung that poor schmuck from the bridge? They would have needed good lawyers just to reduce their sentence; and I'm not defending whatever he did. I've noticed that trapping rights and privilages are in decline in many places. I still think they need to excercise good judgement, whether it's night hunters or bird dogs. They have a responsibility, too. If they string out 200 miles of traps, that's a lot of area to claim title.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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WhiteMtnCur
Knows what it's all about
Member # 5
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posted February 13, 2003 08:58 PM
Leonard, I pulled this out of your post in the Hunting Vehicles Forum:
"First of all, I tend to leave my truck wide open, maybe the doors open, but that's hardly an open invitation as my views closly resemble John's."
Does this contradict a little of what you said earlier about traps?
Leonard: "What do you expect me to do if I find a twenty dollar bill blowing across the road? Wait for the owner to show up?"
How does that compare to a coyote caught in a trap? You can shoot the coyote and leave it for the trapper to find. You don't have to wait for him to come back.
Leonard: "That coyote could have come from half a mile on the other side of the lake, nothing to prevent it, and the road circled around it."
And there's a possibility that a rancher set the trap due to sheep losses (Nevada had a lot more sheep 30 years ago) and you shooting the coyote was only doing the rancher a favor. Who knows?
Leonard: "I still think they need to excercise good judgement, whether it's night hunters or bird dogs."
Most trappers do exercise good judgement. But it's hard to be upset with someone who caught a coyote that happened to be in sight of a spotlight shone from a road. Not many trappers are thinking spotlights will be shone out from roads looking for coyotes.
Regarding bird dogs, where are trappers going wrong? If a dog gets caught, the hunter can release the dog. No harm done. It's too bad they usually just steal the trap. I did have one instance two years ago where I had a trap set off and a note in the jaws. It read, "Sorry to set off your trap, I caught my dog while pheasant hunting. Thanks for trapping the predators." I wish they were all that kind. There's no harm done to any bird dogs. It's not a problem if the dog gets caught.
Leonard: "If they string out 200 miles of traps, that's a lot of area to claim title."
I don't think they claim title at all. The coyote is a public resource. It doesn't belong to anyone until it's trapped, snared, or shot. So anyone could go into that 200 mile area and catch coyotes. Heck, I've trapped right behind other trappers before and come out ahead. They're not claiming the coyotes. They're just attempting to catch as many as they can, so they can support themselves doing something they love to do.
[ February 13, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: WhiteMtnCur ]
Posts: 97 | From: Nevada | Registered: Jan 2003
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20t-n-t
Knows what it's all about
Member # 46
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posted February 13, 2003 10:20 PM
Ok,, Leonard you know I respect you very much and value your opinyon greatly, I feel that I must say this, I have trapped for 30+ years and I tallied up all the traps and the catch that have been stolen from me in that time and it will shock you but here it is> traps 41, their cost orig.$390.00 then to replace them over $400.00, now we are talking almost 800 bucks + whatever was in the trap. I know because I have kept reccords for 30+ years. Over 1/2 of those traps were taken on a foot line in Colorado and were set for bobcat and at the time they were bringing around $300.00 ea. so you do the math, I also knew that they were taken for personal gain. The Division of wildlife never cought the ass hole. I did after two years of it and He went to jail, only because if I had started in on him, I would have gone to jail. It is a big deal and they should be treated just like horse thiefs. The ones who do it all the time, I mean. so just for the sake of argument lets say they took 15 bobcat @ 200 ea, thats $3,000.00 and say they took 15 coyotes that avraged $30.00, thats $450.00 to total $3,450.00 dollars that they took from me and my family not to mention the time spent setting the traps to begin with, and my traps were set lawfully. Yes it matters to me. In this time,only one time did the guy put a 20 dollar bill in my trap along with a note saying he was sorry and giveing his phone no. I called and thanked him for being honest.
And to ansure your question about longlines, do they have a right to lay claim to that much land, well lets see here,,, if the trapper is useing 3' of chain, steaked down thats roughley 16sf x 100= 1,600sf of desert that he is useing and you are useing how much?????? Who's laying claim to what here??? So ok if you need the critter that you have now shot full of holes for your tallie on this hunt at least put something in the trap so that the trapper isn't just SOL... Mistakes happen its what you do to rectify it that makes you a sportsman or NOT....... This is a heated subject if you are a trapper and where I come from its called a "justifiable hommiside" not realy but its very serious and not taken lightly, Because after all he beat you to the coyote and has a lawful right to what he's caught.
O yes and By the way 30 years ago we did'nt have to tag our traps because most people respected them and left them alone. The main reason we had to start tagging our traps was because "trappers" were not checking their traplines often enough, I never understood that reasoning, I checked my trapline every damn day unless the weather shut me down and then I found another way to get it checked. The longest ever i went without checking my traps was the winter of 79 snowstorm that shut everything down for 4 days, even then I rented a snowmobile and checked my line on the 3rd day.
I'm not yelling or judgeing, this just hits home for me. Trapping is hard work if its done right and In the day, one lost trap or robbed trap was = to that days profit.
I'm finished now
Slydog
Just had to fix a couple things,, sorry!
[ February 13, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: 20t-n-t ]
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Teach a kid to hunt and fish and feed them for a lifetime......
Posts: 245 | From: Boise Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted February 13, 2003 11:17 PM
Dang...
I'm sorry I ever came in here... I said I was sorry that I didn't understand the issue, and now this has turned to climbers leaving trash and "eyesores" everywhere? Whoa??? Am I trippin' or what? What in the world do traps and pitons have to do with one another??? (though a piton would be a good way to secure a trap LOL)
I will address that... I am actually glad you asked.
Climbers, even on The Cap'n, don't much use pitons anymore... they've been superceeded by gear that does much less damage to the rock. And when we did use them, at over ten dollars apiece I can tell you exactly who removed them... my partner, as he climbed up to each one I pounded in... and if not I would go back and remove them myself, climbing back up the rope to the high point, when I climbed solo...
El Cap is 4,480 tall, I am 5'6" tall, 7'4" with my arm at full reach and a little more for each piece of gear...
At an average cost of ten bucks each, with the 640 placements it would take (way conservative estimate), if I left behind every piece of gear it would take to once again stand upon it's beautiful summit, it would cost me $6,400.00 in disposable gear... and my rack would weigh over six hundred pounds not including three to ten days water, as I left the ground... not bloody likely.
*Note* In 1947 John Salathé invented the removeable piton, so that he and his partner could climb the formation in yosemite now named The Salathé Wall, this was done in an effort to reduce the amount of gear carried, but also in an effort to reduce the amount of litter left behind by climbers... access was a tough issue even back then.
Television has not caught up with modern climbing tech, so neither have any of you! LOL
The Eiger Sanction... fake!
Cliffhanger... More fake!
Vertical Limit... So fake most climbers were fully offended!
And as far as ANYTHING dropped on purpose from ANY rock formatiom in ANY Wilderness Area or National Park, it is a strict no-no and punishable by up to three days in jail and fines too big to even consider... it is a federal offence the Park Rangers relish enforcing! Besides our friends are down there on the floor, camped at the base, waiting for their turn.
We also have an honor system in place on most of the "big walls" in this country and, unless you have a plane to catch or something drastic, all participate...
For every day you send on the wall, you owe it one day of clean up... Hike out to El Cap terraces sometime, look around, it's clean...
Everything we take up the wall, except for urine (and some guys are now recycling that through water purifiers so sometimes even that is taken off) comes down with us.
A three gallon bucket or PVC "poop tube" is carried along and all feces is brought down in it. Or elaborate drying methods are used, as you climb, and the poop is burned in an approved fire pit on top (not a fire you want to huddle around).
And no ropes or rigging can be left unattended for more than two days... many of "the trade routes' will have climbers waiting in line to climb and many "fix pitches" (leave ropes up) to make the climb go faster and limit the number of nights on the wall (in an effort to save wear and tear on the vertical desert), or they have such a constant stream of teams on it it may seem to be littered with the same ropes, when indeed it has been many many different ones up in the same way..
In J-Tree there is a "fixed anchor" commitee and if youd like to hand drill and install a bolt or hammer in a piton there is a $250 (non-refundable) application fee and your project may or may not be approved, this had lead to the deaths of three climbers (and who knows how many more injuries) who have fallen and the removable gear we often rely on wouldn't work... a bolt has now been added.
The rock , like a hunters quarry, is very important to us, and like hunting land access is lost all the time... now I know the votes I cast in favor of hunting issues and access were not repaid in kind. I never woulda thought you guys could be labeled "anti-s"???
Blast down a mountain in Nevada and make it into pennies and telephone wires... drive on concrete roads of crushed rock and mined portland cement... make dinner on your granite coumtertops while standing on your slate floors... but heaven forbid Krusty nail his way up some otherwise untraveled stone??? So that he might feel the same pride and sense of accomplishment a big game hunter must feel, as he takes three days to ascend a mile of stone.
I will never be able to climb The Big Stone ever again, for personal reasons, but knowing you guys don't support my right to do it is shocking... truly... (I have a lot to say about this, but I'm way too tired)
And as far as "the eyesores" are concerned, the words of the late great Dan Osmond ring to mind, (he was fined three thousand dollars for replacing three dangerously old bolts, two thousand feet off the deck, a climbing community service)
"The bolts I put up there couldn't be seen by the average tourist with the Hubble telescope"
The climbing community in and around Yosemite raised the money to pay his fine. The three most expensive bolts in climbing LOL. Since then hundreds of climbers have safely spent the night there.
Which would you rather see, a few harmless bolts and pitons in the rock, or dead and mangled bodies all over a bloodstained landscape?
I feel it is a small trade off in the big scheme of things for the safety of my friends.
Should they stop putting safeties on guns, and we'll all throw away our hunter's orange too? How 'bout seatbelts and motorcycle helmets, nah don't need them either?
Wow???
Can we talk about trapped animals?
Appearantly NOT!!!
Jeff
P.S. Ya know Leonard, that was thirty years ago???
How long can one old guy hold a grudge? Sheesh! LOL
[ February 14, 2003, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted February 14, 2003 03:35 PM
You know, I actually dreaded logging on today, it was starting to look like a friggin accidental shooting of an escaped coyote was being equated to child molestation.
Krusty, don't take it seriously, I don't know what I'm talking about; but I sure found a hot button for ya, didn't I?
Trevor, as far as quoting me at length, do me a favor and knock it off. Even when it's not myself being crucified, it irritates me.
Sly, I fully understand the economics of your problem, point well taken.
I have no remorse about that coyote, or the trap. But, I have pondered it a bit since yesterday, so maybe this thread has some value? When will I learn? Further mitigation: It was a two hundred yard shot, out on a flat lake bed without a blade of grass. It's not like I pulled up a stake, and at the time, I really didn't consider the ethical situation. As far as it being a Club hunt, I was mistaken. I remembered after I went to bed how it happened, and no, trapped animals are not allowed. It was a scouting trip, the week before. But I sure as hell didn't bring it up so that everybody could construct a case for the prosecution. For many crimes to be proved, there has to be intent. The lamest comparision so far, in my view (besides the one I used about leaving climbing gear on a mountain) is parking a truck on the side of the road, and that being regarded as an open invitation for a stranger to drive off with it. Let's get real. Yes, I think I resent the lecture, and the lynch mob. I didn't want the focus to be on my transgression. I could have easily learned as much without the personal attacks.
I wonder if a general combative attitude, when dealing with true enemies, such as PETA; contributes to the way that trapping is losing support almost everywhere? No offense, of course; just an observation.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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LN
PAKMAN
Member # 103
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posted February 14, 2003 03:53 PM
Being fairly new here I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I think this hypothetical person is A) a cheat, adding a trapped coyote to a contest
B) a theif for taking property he dosn't own
C) a hypocrit for thinking he has more claim to using public land than a trapper
D) justifies his actions by claiming the trap was too close to the road AND the trap was on a dry lake bed and who knows how far it traveled, problem is second argument excuses the first!
E) seems to have a grudge against trappers and makes excuses to justify HIS illegal activities
F) would have no right to complain if someone FOUND his equipment left while trailing a wounded coyote, but I'm sure in his mind that is different and he would want the offended prosecuted.
My 2 cents worth, and if you want to flame me to justify unsportsman and illegal activities than this board isn't worth it. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 3 | From: aurora colorado | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 14, 2003 04:06 PM
Don't worry about it, partner. Why would you think your post would ruffle feathers? You got in a shot, you can duck and run, or try being civil. I just SAID I don't need no friggin lectures but fear not, you have not been flamed for your opinion. LB
edit: I forgot. Welcome to Huntmasters
[ February 14, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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WhiteMtnCur
Knows what it's all about
Member # 5
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posted February 14, 2003 04:27 PM
Sorry if I pissed you off Leonard, that wasn't my intent. I didn't mean for my posts to be personal attacks on you.
I didn't intend to turn this post into a fight. I have nothing against climbers Krusty, sorry if it came across that way.
Leonard originally asked how does a trapper feel about losing a trap (and possibly an animal). The answer, I feel, is it's a pretty serious thing. Yes, we as trappers have to deal with it, but it's nice when other hunters/outdoorsman respect that we're trapping, and don't steal/shoot, etc. Of course mistakes happen. There's no one to blame for a trapped coyote being accidentally shot, I wouldn't hold it against anyone if it's a mistake. I'm mainly against people who would steal the trap/animal, or shoot trapped animals intentionally (those comments are not directed towards anyone on this forum).
As far as support for trapping, I don't see it losing support everywhere. Actually quite the opposite. Check out the front page of today's USA TODAY. Or some of the recent Wall Street Journal articles. It's badly misunderstood, even by many hunters, which is why it's had so many past struggles.
Posts: 97 | From: Nevada | Registered: Jan 2003
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James
PAKMAN
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posted February 14, 2003 04:28 PM
Someone posting here asked me to comment on an issue, maybe because I'm a lawyer as well as a hunter and trapper.
Leonard: "But does the guy have absolute legal, prosecutable authority, because the trap
belongs to him, even though it's government land?"
The answer is the same whether it's public or private land. Only a prosecutor (a district attorney or similar government lawyer) can prosecute. If a crime is committed against you (and theft of a trap or legally caught animal IS a crime), this person is the one who decides whether and what to charge the perpetrator with. But the individual victim (here, the trapper) can sue you in a civil action for damages. Another Alaskan here mentioned the veridict rendered by a Tok jury against a biologist who released a snared wolf (although I believe the judge reduced the jury award in that case to around $140,000) in just such a case.
Provided the animal is legally trapped, it becomes the property of the trapper. If you accidentally shoot such an animal, you would not acquire title to it; the proper thing to do is leave the animal there. Since most states have laws prohibiting theft or interference with a trap or trapped animal, you'd also be wise to leave a note explaining the circumstances and offering to pay any damages to the fur, in order to avoid the risk of prosecution.
Since laws vary from state to state, consult your local regulations.
Leonard: "let's say the guy has unlimited resources, puts out two hundred traps across the
road from a feedlot or dump in full public view, on public land and any number of people can see
those animals out there. Is he protected, beyond all question?"
Yes, if he's trapping legally. He's not trapping legally if he's out of season, trespassing, trapping in a closed area, using banned traps, etc. But even if he's trapping illegally, you still do NOT have the right to remove or tamper with his traps, unless he's trespassing and you are the landowner. You should call your local wildlife enforcement officer, and let him take care of it.
A couple things make your scenario unrealistic. A trapper does not have to have "unlimited resources" to run 200 traps; given current prices, that number just might let you eke out a subsistence living. Also, few trappers would be so foolish as to leave that many traps in plain sight, where thieves will walk away with them. It does little good to be the victim of a crime when the evidence and thief are probably long gone.
Jim
[ February 14, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: James ]
Posts: 7 | From: Anchorage, Alaska | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 14, 2003 05:31 PM
Leonard-
Wow! It shocks me to see you posting a thread on this subject. On one hand, I'm upset that you've admitted to doing something that I consider to be one of the lowest things a sportsman can do. On the other hand, I'm glad that it's bugged you enough for 30 years that you've brought it up now for discussion.
Trevor pretty much summed up anything and everything I might want to toss into the fray, but I would like to offer a few brief comments.
First off, it doesn't really matter much to me why the trapper had his gear there. Recreational trapping versus long-lining. The fact remains that any legally set trap is the property of the trapper, legally being defined as being a trap allowed as prescribed by state law, and with the trapper having valid permission to be where he's at. Any animal caught in that trap is his, as well. Once the animal's restrained in the trap, he's no longer public domain, to me. For anyone at all to come along and tamper with the trap and/ or animal is no different whether the person is a hunter that takes my coyote, or a tree hugger that releases it.
You cited intent as a factor in any criminal act. Correct. And if you remove the animal and trap, you've done so with the intent to possess property that is simply not yours.
Have you ever had a deer stand stolen? I don't imagine they're very common in muley country, but in whitetail areas, they're placed early in the year on regular travel routes for deer. Nothing ruins your season like planning for the opener, getting up early, hiking into the woods and upon arrival at your tree, you find noting but boot prints and empty branches. To me, stealing a deer stand and taking traps are one and the same.
This past Fall, my 11 year old son and I were out calling for the camera along this big wooded creek. I knew a nice ladder stand was located there, and had been for the past three seasons. In fact, the wood platform had been replaced annually and the swivel seat well maintained. So, I knew it hadn't just been abanadoned. On the way out, I walked over to that stand, pointed to it, and asked Dalian if he'd left that there. He said no. What we had was a great opportunity for the ol' man to make a point. He hates it when I get all "Old Man and the Boy"-Ruarkish-prophetic, but it happens. I said, "Damned right you didn't. Because it's not yours, and it never will be. But it sure belongs to somebody and if you so much as ever mess with another man's deer stand, or trap, or anything else he might leave in the woods so he can come back and hunt or trap around it, then, well, you don't deserve to call yourself a sportsman and I'll sell every damned gun you shoot and piece of gear you use and make sure that you don't go to the woods with me again. His permission is no less valid than yours, except that he's not a thief, and because of that, you wouldn't deserve the right to hunt here anyway." I then asked him if he was clear on this matter. Believe me, he was. It would have been perfect if I'd had a pipe stem to chew on, a dirty old felt fedora-like hat, and broke side by side hanging from the crook of my arm.
Yes, there are laws and regulations about how and where traps can and cannot be placed. But, unfortunately, there are cases where traps are placed in places that are less than appropriate. As it is with a lot of things in this crazy, mixed up world, it may be immoral, it may be unethical, and it may be poor judgment, but it isn't always illegal. What you regard as concealed may very well be in plain view for me and the places I walk and look. You'd be surprised at how well most trappers know every little nook and cranny on their lines. Where you see acre upon acre of wide open view, the trapper sees infinite little 2-inch square spaces, each the size of a trap pan. And he looks for the best squares under which to place his trap. In fact, I'd be willing to bet you've called over a lot of trapped or snared coyotes in your years of calling, maybe more, and didn't even know they were there. You just happened to stand one up. And you made a decision that differs a great deal from what I would have done.
I myself have come upon coyotes in traps when entering calling setups. Any of us with enough time under our belts probably have. And yes, I could have taken the coyote and no one would have known the better. But I didn't. I shot the coyote. Checked the trap for a tag (it didn't have one). Then, I went and told the rancher to contact the trapper and let him know it was there. This isn't meant as a personal attack by any means, but more for future reference, but my son's school has a program that promotes character and integrity as how you make decisions when you know no one is looking. This is a perfect case in point for this.
As far as trap identification goes, don't assume that because you don't see it, it isn't there. Kansas requires that all traps be tagged with the owner's name and current address. Visible tags can be easily removed. My tags are very well concealed prior to dying or dipping and I actually had to show my tag's location to the local Conservation Officer one day when he couldn't find it.
Again, I'm surprised that this subject is even being discussed. I'm also very glad it is so that other guys can maybe take something away from it in knowing that there is, in fact, another side to this issue. It's not just a "hunting thing". Simple rule to follow: if you didn't put it there, don't take it home. Had I made the same decision thirty years ago, I'd probably be regretting it now, too. The fact that you seem to speaks to your character. And I, for one, respect that.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 14, 2003 09:09 PM
I guess I'm due my turn in the barrel. What was I thinking, anyway?
A couple of points.
Trevor sees it as "a pretty serious thing" which is his right and privilege. It should be obvious (by now) that I did not have a clue, even at this point as to the level of concern. I fail to grasp the position that the animal was personal property, even as I have described the circumstances. No one else way there, and I made a judgement that this was a lost animal. I never suspected that the guy that set out the trap would ever find it. That's my belief, and the rest of the speculation here is simply advocating. Nobody knows, but I was there, and I felt that it was recoverable. There are lots of things out in the desert that don't belong to anyone. Abandoned years ago, etc.
James, welcome to the New Huntmasters. I hope I can say this without also conveying attitude? I got fair enough grades in Business Law though it was a long time ago. For every prosecutor that thinks he has a clear violation of law, (thankfully) there is a defense lawyer equally sure that he is mistaken. Your opinion is appreciated, but not conclusive, and I'm confident that a good defense attorney could mount a credible defense in my behalf. Need I remind you that OJ didn't do it? I'm not being a smart ass, just offering my own, equally valid opinion.
For your consideration. I had my car stolen from my driveway by three Asian gang teenagers. They stole my cell phone and $103 that was in the ash tray and when they were arrested a mile away, I got the cell phone back within an hour. Of course, they damaged my car, but the police didn't seem to care about my property, and refused to give me the names and addresses, since they were minors, all from families of means. The DA didn't prosecute and they got a short probation. I guess it didn't matter that they had six cell phones and burglery tools, and my money? Basically, nothing happened. Except insurance rates and deductables. Moral outrage has many levels, doesn't it? Here in the city, you have to be pretty much unredeemable to go to jail for anything. Absolutely true, what you say: laws vary from state to sate.
Cdog, I appreciate your thoughts on the issue at hand. If you think you are surprised, I am also. Lowest things a sportsman can do? Poaching, exceeding a limit, taking fish or game out of season, hunting without a license, these things are higher on your ethical scale? Oh well, I know you tried to make me feel a little better. Thanks for that.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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