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Author
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Topic: To Challenge Howl or not to Challenge?
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted February 12, 2003 10:41 AM
I went to a spot of mine that I know is a core area. We set up and I howled, long and non-threatening, the "group" responded a hill or two away, more distance than I think they would travel back for. I know there is a good chance that there is a "hobo" or loner running around in the area so in the middle of my waa's I go back with a soft long howl. Should I have used a challenge howl, or would that intimidate other individuals in the area?
I have had a good response from this group of coyotes before, with one displaying a fit of rage just inside a tree-line.
Any help with the brain-massaging will be appreciated.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 12, 2003 11:52 AM
Hi Jim, I never initiate the "challenge" or threat bark-howls. If they answer a lone howl, which is very rare in this area, I answer with a yip-howl. They usually won't ignore a territorial claim and will come on in. If they escalate to a threat bark-howl, it's pretty much a done deal and I'm going to get some video. I don't believe you are going to see any "hobos" or nomads after you howl a "challenge". If you called from within the core area and they answered from 2 hills over, were they outside the core area or is it really that large? I would have moved as close as possible to them and yip-howled. If they didn't appear quickly, I would begin a distress series with puppy yelps.
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brad h
Knows what it's all about
Member # 57
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posted February 12, 2003 12:48 PM
Rich
Here's a similar situation. I'm on a hill overlooking a dry washout about 1/4 mile or more away. I know they hang there and this is at night and no wind. I start with 3 or 4 long drawn out howls, higher piched, and without barks. They respond with the usuall group howl. That lasts over a minute. 15 seconds after thats done I hear a challenge. Lots of barks and short agressive howls. So I challenge back. He challenges more. Back and forth we go and he's not moving any closer. At one point he shut up for about 3 minutes. I also remained quiet and and expected to see him in range. Then he piped up again in the same spot he was he was in before. I got tired of it and got up and left. I walked to the other side of the hill where I parked and I could still hear him going off when I turned the engine on. I was using a red lense and I'm sure I wasn't made. Might I have been out of his territorial boundry? It seems to me like I should have been close enough.
Brad
Posts: 346 | From: Glendive MT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 12, 2003 03:46 PM
Brad, he knows howling, but he doesn't know night hunting. You are never going to get them to come in with what you were doing. You have to turn that light off for at least five minutes, more often ten. Then expect to see eyes directly downwind, and you need to shoot quick. Just blink the light on every minute or so, and turn it off right away if you don't see eyes. Don't wave the light around, anywhere but straight downwind. And no talking, just lip squeak when you turn the light on. It helps to use the mist.
If you don't want to invest about twenty minutes, you might as well break it off and go make another stand, you were made.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
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posted February 12, 2003 04:08 PM
Brad, I like your initial howls, good way to start. The group howl in response is normal and good. The threat bark-howl 15 seconds later is not. I don't know if you were outside their marked territory or not. If they just issued warning barks, I would think probably so. But the more aggressive bark threat-howls mean he is in territory he is willing to defend, whether you are or not. Night air settles as it cools and disperses over lower lying areas. I have a feeling they heard a coyote and smelled man, and though unwilling to approach were unwilling to give ground. We encountered the same circumstances 3 weeks ago with the same results. In 2 weeks we will approach the same wash from another angle, get in within 100, get alot of Leonard's Magic Mist in the air, and begin with yip-howls lasting for one minute. I'll let you know how it worked out. I think it's important to know that, to me, warning barks, whether they have made you as a man or not, are made by an alarmed coyote and mean they are not going to approach, period, and they will vacate the area at first excuse. Threat bark-howls are issued by an alarmed coyote also but if you can mix anger with that adrenaline, you have a coyote that will stand his ground and reward you with some dandy tantrums. Move in closer from another direction, begin with yip-howls and let the coyote escalate the confrontation. Take a camera, this could be a lot of fun.
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Rich Higgins
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posted February 12, 2003 04:14 PM
I did not see Leonard's post before I began the laborious, typing process. He is the master of the night. Follow his advise. My method will work daytime but also in the night.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 12, 2003 04:32 PM
Rich, it is extremely difficult to call in any coyote or group that is howling, any kind of howling, at night, unless they are completely independently vocalizing, and you haven't started any kind of series. In other words, they don't know you are there.
Since I view this as a numbers game, unless the hunting is very slow, I'd move if I got coyote barks or howls in response to my calling or howling, at night. The reason being that you can make a stand and a half in the time you invest in a vocal coyote, at night. And, it's never a sure thing. As you say it might be a challenge or a threat warning, seldom if ever a lone howl. So, you can't be sure if he will come in.
But, if he does, he will not look at the light, and he won't circle at all until he thinks you must have left the area. So, you have to shut up, and then he will shut up. So you need to just wait him out. Sometimes it never happens, but it's your only solution unless you want to use the siren, or a hurt pup, and light him up for a shot within range. That's it, or leave.
Good hunting. LB
edit: in any case, trading challenge howls and insults is wasting everyone's time. The coyote is never going to do anything worthwhile except shoot his mouth off for a while, but it won't ever amount to anything.
[ February 12, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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brad h
Knows what it's all about
Member # 57
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posted February 12, 2003 04:33 PM
Thanks for the help guys. I'm going to try to work this group again with a diffrent aproach some other night. I'll stick it in the night forum next time. Leonard, I've been wondering this for a long time, how can I get the mist?
Brad
Posts: 346 | From: Glendive MT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 12, 2003 05:01 PM
I must be missing something here, Leonard. I reread both of our posts and still can't find anything that contradicts the other.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 12, 2003 06:06 PM
I'm in the same boat, I don't see any contradictions? That was not MY intent, and I didn't read contradiction into your comments? I'm just very poor at expressing myself, at times. Sorry.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted February 13, 2003 09:00 AM
Thanks for the response and advice. I think that I was in their area, they were about 1/2 mile away. Provided I could of gotten on the land closer to them, OK. is mostly private, should I have moved closer to the group?
Rich- I didn't howl aggressive, as I have been following your RX. on staying longer on my howls.
Saturday morning, I went to a spot that I had howled the evening before. That evening I had one lone howl, or what I think was a lone howl at me. Being dark I waited a while and left. We came back and set up in the bottom and I howled they responded and I cut in the Assembly howl with a lone howl they howled back I howled and then after a pause I went to the waas. Got a nice male in to about 15 to 20, Onis shot him. Stayed there howl intermitently, and get another one sliding through and we can't get the shot on it. good stand though. Magic mist, and good howler.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted February 15, 2003 07:44 AM
Like mentioned earlier, I don't initiate it but rather respond with it when confronted with it.
One particular instance I got to see several coyotes react to this scenario. I crested a hill and was busted by a group of 5 coyotes down in the bottom of a valley. No cover anywhere. All the coyotes where scattering as soon as they saw me. I considered heading back to the truck. But then I figured heck I walked clear out here so I just sat down in plain view and gave a couple non-threatening howls. I quickly received some aggressive howling back. Much to my surprise a couple of the coyotes came back into view. We exchanged challenge howls for some time. I was getting a kick out of watching them through the binos while copying their challenge barks and howls. These coyotes were probably 800+ yards and making no attempt to come closer. While having fun howling/barking and watching through the binos I heard a low growl to my right. Here is this large male coyote staring at me from 25-30 yds growling and giving these quiet short barks. I figured as soon as I moved he would be gone. I slowly started shifting my rifle in his direction. He didn't flinch. In fact advanced a bit, still growling. I was able to square up with him and shoot him. One of the biggest and most mature coyotes of that season. Those other coyotes did not advance towards me at all, although they kept up the howling for awhile after I shot the coyote that did come.
I have had a lot of challenge bark matches at night. Some of the coyotes sounded like they were in spitting distance but couldn't even pick up their eyes with the spotlight. They would stay in a low spot and bark their butt off. Ki-yis brought them into view sometimes.
Sorry about being so windy.
Take care, Curt
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jim V.
PAKMAN
Member # 60
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posted February 15, 2003 03:10 PM
Leonard, regarding your 2/12 post re: night hunting. I don't know howling but I do know night hunting, about 225 total at night. Right now I am so flabbergasted and befuddled about your post I can't reply, maybe later.
Jim V.
Posts: 3 | From: Monument, CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 15, 2003 04:27 PM
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Jim V.
I'm afraid I don't know what you refer to, did I write something with which you disagree, or what?
Well, whenever you're ready, jump in.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Ok .257
PAKMAN
Member # 92
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posted February 15, 2003 06:46 PM
I can think of 3 stands where I started with a challenge howl.
1st-I was still using an e-caller then. I turned on the tape, picked up my gun and placed on the shootn stiks and over the barrel I could see 5 yotes charging. No response, just charging dogs. I shot the lead dog at 65 yds.
2nd-Pretty much the same scenario, except it a couple of minutes rather than seconds. Three dogs in front of me(I missed a head shot ot 30 yds) and a single 200 yds behind me back across a county road. Even after I shot it stayed and we fussed with other for about 15 mins. I drew it closer to the road but it would not cross.
3rd-2 series of challenge howls and about 3 to 4 mins later my partner shot a single dog at 200 yds. After it crossed our wind and were able to get it stopped for the shot.
I can think of a few occasions when the yotes would stay out at about 4 or 5 hundred yds and just fuss at me. I could see them but at that time I didn't have sufficient caliber to attempt a shot.
I believe in the tactic. It has worked for me on several stands. But I use it sparingly. And in all honesty, I have scared yotes off with it. But I have also had them run from a lip squeak.
I believe the key is this.
1st-Getting into the core area without being detected. Or being lucky enough to set up within a few hundred yds of where the animals are hunting. In either case you are an unwelcome intruder. And they should respond either out territorial defense or just curiosity.
2nd-Only during and after the breeding will I use it. It creates a more tresspassing message from me. And evokes a more territorial response from the dogs. I will continue to use it up until summer when the females are really having to hunt hard in order to feed larger pups. Plus, I believe an intruder male even a female will kill rival pups in order to more readily feed their own pups. As well as perptuate their own gene pool. Thus improving the survivability and longevity over the years of their own pack.
3rd-A male cannot allow an intuding male to move in and attempt to take over his territory and steal his females. This would end his gene line and that defeats the rule nature. Survival of the fittest.
I'm not saying its the only way to fly . But it is a viable tool. Don't be afraid to use it.
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Okie lookn 4 fur
Posts: 8 | From: seminole, ok | Registered: Feb 2003
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Jim V.
PAKMAN
Member # 60
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posted February 16, 2003 10:03 AM
Leonard, and other night hunters.
Basically I do the opposite of what Leonard posted re: night hunting. To try to get a level playing field here, I'll start by saying I use a #4405 bulb, doesn't bleed out the edge, and do all shooting from the vehicle, either out the window or sitting where the window rolls down, feet in the seat, with arms and rifle on top of vehicle. This gives a real good view from a higher up position. There's no question the coyote knows where I am.
I start by parking on the road, or in a good high spot in the pasture, scanning 360 degrees to see the lay of the land. I do like open areas to the downwind. Blow a 20 second sequence, wait 1 minute and scan with light 360 deg. If no eyes, repeat, same time frame. When eyes appear, I put them in the fringe of the light and keep track of them till the shot, which can be as close as 10 yds. Usually use a squeeker to start and stop. The coyotes appearing upwind will usually come straight in, those appearing to the downwind sides will sometimes, maybe half of the time, fade towards the downwind and I endeavor to make my play before they get my wind. That's why I like this area to be clear of brush and gullies. I consider their winding me a total bust. Knowing where they are at all times gives you an opportunity to work the squeeker and not turn the situation over entirely to the coyote.
I call two or three kills a night good wholesome fun, personal best is 10.
Ok, let the flaming begin.
Jim V.
Posts: 3 | From: Monument, CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 16, 2003 10:22 AM
On what basis, Jim? I see no problem at all with what you are doing. Somebody is on the wrong wavelength, apparently.
If anyone flames you for what you wrote and how you handle animals, I will be the first one to defend you. Maybe you took something out of context?
I very much dislike to make my point by using numbers but I can assure you, I am very successful at what I do and how I do it.
Good hunting. LB
PS I don't like bickering, in general, and I doubt that you will see very much of it on this Board. We have intelligent debate, rather than the flames that worry you. If it gets that way, I make every effort to cool their jets. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 16, 2003 03:20 PM
Pup: "Should I have used a challenge howl, or would that intimidate other individuals in the area?"
First, how would you know what these particular coyotes would discern as a challenge howl?
Knowing that every coyote sounds different and every coyote caller using a hand held howler sounds different, I don't try to outguess their thought process.
They responded, that tells you something. NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEY SAID, they simply responded!
You sold them the idea that there is a coyote there which is 1/2 the battle. Now break into a series of distress calls. By combining distress calls and howling you will sell something to coyotes of every age.
BTW, how did you know you were calling in a "core area"??
I am assuming by "core area" you mean in the center of their territory, which BTW varies with predator abundance, coyote populations in the area, time of year, and food availability.
Also important to note is that the territorial responses of INDIVIDUAL coyotes vary by age of coyote, time of year, coyote population in the area, hunting pressure, and prey availability.
Consider all the combinations with all those variables and you will have to agree that it's fairly difficult to paint coyote responses to vocalizations with a broad brush of understanding.
What defines a "core area" for you?
Droppings?
Tracks?
Vocalizations?
Other?
brad h: "I got tired of it and got up and left."
Why didn't you try to get closer brad?
See Curt's post below and note that he was out in the open. Curt did the right thing in that situation. If they don't come to you, you go to them. A "silver bullet" sound is SELDOM going to get coyotes to come towards an area that they do not want to come towards. More times than that, that is the situation more than their lack of interest in you sound.
How do I know? Because when I move towards them many times they will respond to the same sounds.
Once you get them to howl then they are convinced you are a coyote. If they don't come to you, you have to go to them. When you howl again and they know that this coyote is coming closer that helps convince them even more that you are a coyote and are approaching them. This in itself will elicit a better response.
Bugling elk works much the same way. Ask any successful elk bugler and they will tell you if the elk doesn't come to you, you have to go to the elk. Same thing with coyotes.
Hope this helps!
Try it next time!
~SH~
[ February 16, 2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 16, 2003 04:22 PM
I see that we finally got your registration squared away. Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Scott.
When I read "core area" I wondered if the term might be used incorrectly, or if pup was very familiar with the area, and current.
On those occasions when I change location, I have had some luck by just moving, whether it's toward the coyote or upwind of the coyote or just the best use of cover, even though it isn't shortening the distance, it seems to persuade them to come in, once in a while.
At night, I wouldn't want to move in their direction, on foot, for a lot of reasons.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 16, 2003 05:44 PM
Leonard,
Lets just assume a standing disclaimer with my posts that are applicable to day calling only.
I know that night calling is a different animal and you will get no argument from me on night calling as I do not have enough experience with night calling to form any solid conclusions.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted February 17, 2003 07:57 AM
Maybe I'm wrong but isn't a challenge howl very distinct from a lone howl or invitation howl. I know that I am in the " core" area. This is a heavily wooded hill, dens are in the area and this is about 1/2 mile from my house. I know the area well. I have called several coyotes off of the hill, shot several coyotes off the hill. It is not very often that the coyotes don't respond from this area. My post was a question, that had been raised because the "group" answered on a hill that is about 1/2 mile away, and I don't have permission to go there. Do I challenge howl in their area, to try and get them to move over to me, or do I stay "long and soft" as I like to call it, as not to intimidate but to entice any nomads in the area. I feel that I done the right thing, stay long and soft, because I couldn't move on the other coyotes. It doesn't make sense that a nomad would answer a challenge howl seeing as he doesn't belong there anyway.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 17, 2003 01:31 PM
Pup: "Maybe I'm wrong but isn't a challenge howl very distinct from a lone howl or invitation howl."
Is there a difference between a "lone howl" and an "invitation howl"?
Do you know for certain that a coyote can discern the difference between a "lone howl" and an "invitation howl" from another coyote let alone coming from a mouth blown howler?
Regarding challenge howls, what we as humans discern as a "challenge howl" may be completely different than what SOME coyotes discern as a "challenge howl" COMING FROM US.
In other words, is what we as callers believe is a challenge call being interpreted by the coyotes as a challenge howl OR DO THEY JUST HEAR A HOWL and respond?
In my opinion, yes, there APPEARS TO BE a difference between a "CHALLENGING TYPE HOWL" and a lone howl. At the same time, I am not sure a "CHALLENGING TYPE HOWL" has any more attractiveness than ANY OLD HOWL. I've used enough of both for enough years that I believe a strange howl is a strange howl and a strange howl has attraction.
Since we can't talk to a coyote to know for sure, we speculate and all opinions have some merit as a result. Observations based on many years of calling can cloud the air rather quickly.
Yes, it appears that a shorter version of a howl can be made THAT APPEARS TO challenge a territorial old male. The question remains, does that sound have any more attraction to that old male than just a plain old howl?
I say no!
I also doubt whether we can duplicate a challenge to where a coyote recognizes it as a challenge when one considers variable winds, variable howls, variable distances from the coyote, and considering echos. I think the coyote hears a howl and either responds or it doesn't respond.
Don't make this complicated!
pup: "I know that I am in the " core" area."
What do you mean by "core area"?
I want to make sure we are on the same wave length here.
pup: "It is not very often that the coyotes don't respond from this area."
By respond to you mean answer or do you mean approach? Each is a response.
pup: "Do I challenge howl in their area, to try and get them to move over to me, or do I stay "long and soft" as I like to call it, as not to intimidate but to entice any nomads in the area."
Try to howl and then break into a series of distress calls to make them think that the intruder has raided the fridge.
If that doesn't work, try a new direction because they may simply be reluctant to approach from a certain direction.
I think in many cases way too much emphasis is being placed on the sounds rather than the situation.
pup: "I feel that I done the right thing, stay long and soft, because I couldn't move on the other coyotes."
Mix some distress calls in and the whole family group should respond from both a territorial and curiousity standpoint.
pup: "It doesn't make sense that a nomad would answer a challenge howl seeing as he doesn't belong there anyway."
If you have non territorial yearlings in the area, they will be curious by the combination of distress calls and howling.
Don't get me wrong pup, I am not suggesting that your theory of trying to appear less threatening is wrong, I am simply asking you to consider that maybe the coyotes simply hear and howl and cannot discern whether or not it appears aggressive or timid or whether it even makes a difference.
We can't sit down and talk to these coyotes so a lot of this coyote language hype is based on pure speculation.
When they come, it tells you something. When they don't, IT TELLS YOU NOTHING!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted February 17, 2003 02:55 PM
Wiley E.-
I don't know what Korean's are saying , but when they fire up the nuclear plant you kinda get some Inflection and tone, There is a difference between a howl and a challenge. The bark is used in the challenge, and the bark is an aggressive action in the articles that I read. The lone howl that I use(right or wrong) has no bark. By core area to get you on the same wave length. I mean that coyotes either come in to my howls mixed with distress calls or they answer me back after I howl, within this 1/4 mile sq area, I mean that this is the spot or area most commonly frequented by a group or groups, loner or nomads, that I have found in any area that I hunt or have hunted in the past 18 years.
There are more coyotes seen in this area by the land owner, as oppossed to places that these coyotes frequent, namely my backyard. I am not an expert on howling like some people are and some people claim to be. I have seen proof(video) of a hunter that has me leaning toward the fact that the coyotes recognize and distinguish the differrence between barks and howling and the length of howl, etc.. I expect that Coyote hunting in the future( with all the pressure) will involve more howling and interpretation to be successful. Yes as always the wannabe's will get this years pups with their simple rabbit squeals, but not day in and day out success. This ain't my first rodeo. My question was should I have moved on the group or should I of challenged them to try and move them. You are more than welcome to come on down and I will take you over to my hunting spot and you can give me your personal view on what I should do next and we can discuss the how do you know's of coyote verbalization. I am open to where I should set up and what your opinion or description of this area would be.
I don't buy into the theory that "They really don't know what other coyotes are saying, they are just curious."
Yeah, I expect some men try to pick up women with the same attitude. It matters to the chicks and it matters to the coyotes. Normal behavior is not to cuss loudly at the wife when you are trying to entice her in the bedroom. I am sure that the coyote is the same way. You don't blare on the distress, the first few notes , you start of soft.
Are you trying to tell me, in all that you have stated and questioned that nobody really knows what to do, because nobody knows what the coyotes are saying. And that there is no possible way that I have a clue as to the whereabouts of a core area.
You answered my question, you stated that you would move and that you have with success. Thanks for that response.
The rest is merely opinion, some based on field experiences some on ? , Time will tell on the subject.
later pup
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 17, 2003 05:52 PM
pup,
Just trying to learn a little more about howling here, that's all!
You didn't answer all my questions so let's try this again:
1. Is there a difference IN A COYOTE'S INTERPRETATION between a "lone howl" and an "invitation howl" from a howler?
2. Does a challenge howl have any more attraction to that old male than just a plain old howl would?
Simple yes, no, I don't know questions.
pup: "There is a difference between a howl and a challenge. The bark is used in the challenge, and the bark is an aggressive action in the articles that I read."
In the articles you read huh?
I was hoping maybe you had some first hand experience on this FROM YOUR AREA that you could share with me.
Based on my experience, barks usually do accompany an agressive action but there is also times when challenging type calls are made with no barks. These challenging type howls are usually shorter and more abrupt howls. Sometimes they bark with a challenging type howl and sometimes they don't.
I still question whether or not they have any more or less attraction than a lone howl.
I am not an expert on howling either. I've only been howling for 20 years, year round so I still have a lot to learn.
I haven't seen any more attraction IN THIS AREA FROM MY CHALLENGING TYPE HOWLS but that could be totally different in your area. That's why I'm asking.
pup: "There are more coyotes seen in this area by the land owner, as oppossed to places that these coyotes frequent, namely my backyard."
Year round or just during the fur season?
pup: " have seen proof(video) of a hunter that has me leaning toward the fact that the coyotes recognize and distinguish the differrence between barks and howling and the length of howl, etc.."
That's interesting!
I don't think anyone would argue whether or not coyotes can distinguish the difference between various howls and barks. The question is, do they have any more attraction than simply howling?
pup: "I expect that Coyote hunting in the future (with all the pressure) will involve more howling and interpretation to be successful."
If history is any indication, I expect that coyote hunting in the future will also include a lot of misinterpretation as well.
Bill Austin was doing this YEARROUND 20 years ago and he admitted to me that he didn't know if a challenge howl was any more attractive than simply using a lone howl.
I am certainly interested to hear of anyone who has taken howling to a higher level than Bill Austin but more importantly whether they have any proof to back it up.
Pup: "This ain't my first rodeo."
Not suggesting it was. Just trying to learn something from someone who appears to know something about howling.
Pup: "You are more than welcome to come on down and I will take you over to my hunting spot and you can give me your personal view on what I should do next and we can discuss the how do you know's of coyote verbalization."
I appreciate the invitation and I always enjoy killing educated coyotes in new country. What I really enjoy is calling in areas where everyone else calls and killing the adults that remain. That's always rewarding.
pup: "I don't buy into the theory that "They really don't know what other coyotes are saying, they are just curious."
I don't buy that they really don't know what other coyote are saying either. I am just not sure that they always interpret the howls we make as being the howls that we think they are. I am also not sure if certain howls are any more attractive to coyotes than other howls.
pup: "You don't blare on the distress, the first few notes , you start of soft."
That's interesting!
Most of the times I have ever heard coyotes getting their asses kicked by other coyotes they start out loud and end up soft.
pup: "Are you trying to tell me, in all that you have stated and questioned that nobody really knows what to do, because nobody knows what the coyotes are saying."
No, I'm simply trying to understand if some people actually know as much as they think they do.
Let me give you an example:
I have used decoy dogs in the summer around denning areas for many years. Keep in mind that this is the time of year when you will witness the strongest territorial behavior you will ever see from coyotes. When that female starts locking in on the dogs, SHE JUST SCREAMS. Bark, bark, bark and a short abrupt howl. It doesn't take long for any other of the adults to come barreling in.
When you get busted by a coyote in the winter when they are less territorial, you will hear a bark, bark, bark, and a short abrupt howl. This puts other coyotes on the defense.
Both of these howls elicit a different reaction and to the human ear, they sound pretty much the same. One attracts other coyotes and one repels other coyotes. With that in mind, do we really know as much as we think we do?
pup: "And that there is no possible way that I have a clue as to the whereabouts of a core area."
No not suggesting that at all. Just knowing that coyote territories change based on prey availability, change seasonally, change with hunting pressure, change with varying coyote population dynamics, and change based on coyote population in the area, I was just questioning why you thought it was a core area.
Thanks for answering my question as it sounds like it is a "core area" which I assume means the area that they spend most of their time in DURING A CERTAIN TIME OF THE YEAR.
pup: "You answered my question, you stated that you would move and that you have with success. Thanks for that response."
You're welcome!
Have a wonderful evening and thanks in advance for answering my questions.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted February 17, 2003 06:30 PM
I'm throwing my howler in the garbage...
Jeff 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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