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Author
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Topic: Aerial gunning in S.D. gone??
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted April 02, 2011 06:56 PM
3 Toes: "In big sheep numbers and big range where the sheep are trailed miles and miles throughout the summer, this simply isn't true."
So what am I missing here Cal? Are you saying you don't always know where the sheep are going to be moved to? Are you saying you don't have the resources to remove pairs before they den? I can certainly understand that because that's what we are facing now. We will be behind the 8 ball. Are you saying that the sheep are being killed after the family groups become mobile?
If so, point taken.
It doesn't matter whether the sheep are there now or whether they will be there. If there is a pair of coyotes on a den in a given area, that pair could have been removed before they denned if the resources were available to do so. Do you disagree?
Up to the point that coyote family groups become mobile, which is usually late July, those areas will USUALLY stay void if you create enough space.
Now if you don't have the resources to remove pairs before they den then of course you will have to remove dens. If you have killing occuring in late July or later from mobile family groups then of course you will have to remove those family groups. I'm not arguing that. I'm simply saying that there will USUALLY not be a den where you removed a bred female in April. Do you disagree?
I don't see a lot of female coyotes moving young pups for long distances. The exception does not the rule make.
Answer this question Cal, is it not in our best interest to remove pairs in historic problem areas before they den or should we let them den first? What am I missing here?
~SH~
[ April 02, 2011, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 02, 2011 09:53 PM
quote:
As far as ADC costs per coyote killed, that figure is irrelevant just as ADC costs per livestock killed. Critics of the program (not suggesting you are an ADC program critic Lance), have always measured ADC dollars spent per coyote killed and ADC dollars spent per livestock loss but the only cost / benefit measure that matters is program costs weighed against livestock that would have been killed in the absence of an ADC program.
I hope my query didn't come off as a critic as it appears to me that the loss of aerial hunting for guys working areas where it is effective would be losing a vitally important tool, amongst many tools, at your disposal1. I can only guess at how difficult it is to defend your work by offering up speculation about what things would be like in your absence. You, and they know that what you say is true, but do they know it well enough to act upon it administratively?
Is it easier to take out pairs ahead of denning or actually wait for them to settle in, establish residency as far as dens go, then go after them when they're pinned down with newborn pups? I would think that being anchored by a litter of new pups would increase their vulnerability.
I do very much appreciate the value of removing offending individuals in historically problematic locales. Concerning one of my favorite success stories, a sheep man here lost 16 lambs in less than two weeks. I went in, checked the area and found where he'd been dumping steer carcasses right in the middle of the section, drawing coyotes in. He also let his sheep graze 24/7 with no protection, i.e., dogs, etc.. At my suggestion, he removed the carcasses and began shedding his sheep at night with two dogs nearby (not an option in your country), plus I went in and spent a LOT of time going after one specific big brown male coyote. Once he was dead, the problems ceased. We have continued to proactively target that area and, until this season, he hadn't lost a single lamb since. This year, he cabled the gates so we couldn't get back into that riverbend and he lost two lambs. A buddy of mine lives nearby and shot the offending coyote three days later and the problem ended. Last season, same guy grazed 36 pregnant ewes 20 miles north of town and chose to leave them out rather than shedding them, and didn't call us to try and clear the area out a bit beforehand. Lost 34 of those 36 lambs inside a week's time. We removed five coyotes and a 'cat from that pasture this season and know of a group of seven coyotes we left behind when I tore my knee up. Fully recovered now, I hope to get in there when time allows and remove a few more in the next week or two to help him out.
[ April 02, 2011, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 02, 2011 10:31 PM
That's about as "clueless" a sheep rancher as I have ever heard of!
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 03, 2011 06:08 AM
CDude;
You can kill that guy's coyotes 'til the cows (or sheep) come home but as a great philosopher once said; "You can't fix stupid".
How do guys like that stay in business as long as they do, anyway???
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7584 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted April 03, 2011 06:33 AM
Cdog: "You, and they know that what you say is true, but do they know it well enough to act upon it administratively?"
The short answer is no they do not always know the arguments that need to be made and who those arguments should be made to. They get tired of fighting with inompetant government just like anyone else. Unfortunately most do not know enough about coyote biology to discuss the importance of predator control at certain times of the year in contrast to these brain dead theories about leaving coyotes that are not bothering. I don't mean to sound condescending towards livestock producers in general with that statement, I'm a livestock producer myself, but coyote biology is just not something they spend a lot of time thinking about. As an example, I can think of a long time sheep producer that keeps 500 ewes fairly close to the buildings all winter. When they hear a coyote in Dec. or Jan., they want someone to come get it. I keep telling them not to worry about it until Feb. because the coyotes will just filter back in again and fill in any voids that are created now. "The only good coyote is a dead coyote" or "well you kept that coyote from going somewhere else" in contrast to what resources we have available and how selective we need to be with our time and money. If the coyotes start killing ewe lambs, certainly that requires immediate action, if hours are available, but I'm not going to waste time trying to chase every dispersing coyote seen in these areas in the heart of the winter when most are just drifting around. At the end of the day, the only number that matters is the number of dead livestock, period.
You also have all kinds of special interest groups trying to influence predator control decisions. Some advocate bounty systems which have failed miserably every where they have been tried. MOST recreational hunters go to the places where coyotes are the thickest rather than spending time chasing a pair of coyotes or coyote that are causing problems. Some advocate snowmobiles. Many landowners do not want snowmobiles running around on their land and as anyone who is thinking knows, snowmobiles are seasonal.
The bottom line is that you need to have someone willing to work a problem coyote or coyotes at the actual time they are causing problems if preventative measures were unsuccessful or the resources were not available to remove the pairs before they den.
Cdog: "Is it easier to take out pairs ahead of denning or actually wait for them to settle in, establish residency as far as dens go, then go after them when they're pinned down with newborn pups? I would think that being anchored by a litter of new pups would increase their vulnerability."
That's a good question and not sure I can answer it as directly as I'd like to. Once again, lots of variables to consider. The bottom line is this, the longer you wait, the more you risk livestock loss occuring before you can remove the pair. The variables to consider is the time you have available later to chase all the dens that could have been avoided and what type of preventative measures you could have used. You also need to consider the size district that you have to cover.
M-44s do not have to be checked as often but require areas of minimal human activity to eliminate dog problems. Traps require monitoring especially with the presence of secondary target animals and non target animals until summer heat helps with putting them down. Bobcats need to be released. Traps can also be negatively impacted by weather despite the best technology and information available to prevent those problems. Snares require trails and/or woven wire fences and they also require checking especially in the presence of deer. It's nice to snare in an area that only contains coyotes but when you have deer using the same trails and knocking down your neck snares, you now may have an active leg snare which causes more chew-outs with coyotes. Calling gets better with pups in the den as far as taking both adults with the aid of decoy dogs but again, how much time is available and how much loss will occur before those coyotes are rounded up? Whenever possible, I like to kill the pair before they drop but so often that's not possible due to workloads and time constraints.
The short answer is, yeh it's probably easier to remove adults once the den is found but did livestock losses occur because you waited? More importantly, do you have the time to round up all the dens now that could have been removed as pairs? Lots of variables to consider.
Here's another down side to this. When you prevent losses from occuring, the rancher may sometime forget why they're not having any killing. Getting back to the lack of understanding of coyote biology. "We don't need to pay that trapper, I haven't had a kill in years". Talk about a Catch-22 situation. Yes, it is possible to work yourself out of a job unless your sheepmen remember what it was like.
I'm painting with a broad brush here. Most sheepmen remember what it was like when the job wasn't getting done but some don't get it.
So getting back to your original point, yes, there is certainly difficulties in having livestock producers arguing for or against something they don't completely understand themselves. At least I think that was your point ("acting upon it administratively").
Look at how long I've been at this and it seems the more I learn, the more I realize how little I actually know about coyotes.
Your sheep story was interesting and proof of how effective good ADC work is in contrast to the BH extension approach in KS. Your story proved my point about the ineffectiveness of the extension approach when it comes to coyotes. Good job BTW!
As further proof with an example of my own, two of my coyote calling partners are both very accomplished coyote callers in their own rights. Tried and proven time and time again in contest hunts. Both have requested my services in the past because they simply don't have the time to work with problem coyotes when they are busy calving and they do not have access to all the tools we have.
The airplane is very cost effective in many locations. In some areas of high coyote population and open ground they will kill 100+ coyotes in a day. Can you imagine the amount of time it would take to remove 25% of those coyotes with ground methods if they were killing livestock?
Let me know if you are interested in the Cook Ranch Study. I think you'd really find it a good read if you can't find it on the internet. I know Hennes was one of the biologists doing the research. It truly is a fascinating read and really explains why we do what we do.
Something else you might find of interest. I have a friend in another state that met a young man from Indiana. They became friends and my friend laid out a trapline for him via google maps. In Indiana they have 50' resolution. Anyway, the young man from Indiana lined up all the permission and my friend joined him to run a trapline. On a 24 hour check, they caught 32 coyotes their first day with video footage and pictures for proof. What's really ironic about this story is a famous live market trapper from Indiana was barking about how eastern trappers head west and mop up on the coyotes but western trappers fail miserably when they go east. Haha! OOOPS!
~SH~
[ April 03, 2011, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted April 03, 2011 07:09 AM
3 Toes: "In big sheep numbers and big range where the sheep are trailed miles and miles throughout the summer, this simply isn't true. You just keep trying to clear a path, and if you don't den the country within several miles of where the sheep will be in the fall the move up will slaughter you."
Not to beat a dead horse but to give you the benefit of the doubt, I re-read your statement.
Perhaps we are each defining "denning" differently. I see you mention "...in the fall". I don't consider removing mobile family groups in the fall as "denning" but I know others that do define it as "denning".
I'm talking about preventing family groups from being tied to a particular hole prior to mid July because that pair was killed prior to dropping pups. Of course if you have sheep moving into areas IN THE FALL considering the mobility of family groups after August, your removal of those family groups never ends.
With that said, removing pairs before they den with stationary sheep operations is not just a theory, it works time and time again. Backed up with countless aerial operations and track observations.
As a general "rule of thumb" carved in soap, in the areas I have worked I found that each consecutive aerial hunt after Feb. is divided in half for coyote numbers.
As an example of aerial hunting a specific area in consecutive months (generalizing):
Feb. - 14 coyotes taken
Mar. - 7 coyotes taken
April - 4 coyotes taken
May - drifters and maybe a pair that was missed
~SH~
[ April 03, 2011, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted April 03, 2011 10:51 AM
Wiley, What I'm refering to is pretty much what you would call a "lack of resouces" in a way. In big country and big sheep numbers, it is literally impossible to kill every bred pair where the sheep are, and where the sheep are going to be. Or at least impossible for me. As for denning, I am refering to pups in the ground, up until late June mostly here. Once they are out of the hole and mobile and you can't take most or all of the pups with a smokebomb or two, I agree that this is not denning. By denning where you know the sheep will be a month or two later, you can at least alleviate some of the problems of a family of hungry coyotes in that pasture waiting when the sheep get there. Yes, in a perfect world with unlimitied flying with a plane and chopper, most of those pairs being gone would be great, but with 7 or 8 trappers fighting for aerial time in the same time frame it doesn't work that way. Factor in also the weather,(we haven't flown in this county in two weeks due to wind and weather and this is that critical time when we need to be doing the absolute most) and it's easy to see that there is no way here to be effective without extensive denning in the upcoming months. I'm not picking on your statement completely, but to say that if an ADC guy is doing things properly, he won't need to den, is a pretty broad bold statement, and it's also the kind of statement that certain factions that oppose us would love to hear and put credence to.
[ April 03, 2011, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted April 03, 2011 11:35 AM
Understood 3 Toes and thanks for explaining.
Allow me to revisit my statement to explain better what I actually meant. I don't like being misunderstood and I was not being critical.
Wiley: "An effective ADC program will remove adult coyotes before they den. An ADC trapper who removes lots of dens is already behind the 8 ball."
Let's try it again....
An effective ADC program will try to remove as many adult coyotes as possible before they den if and when resources allow. An ADC trapper who has to take lots of dens due to the inability to remove adult pairs prior to denning, based on circumstances beyond his control, will be behind the 8 ball and probably needs more aerial hunting hours. Haha!
Better?
For every situation like you have, there is also someone sitting on his ass waiting for the phone to ring when they could be removing pairs.
Although I haven't experienced it, I do realize how difficult it would be working around massive numbers of powerlines, oil roads everywhere, constant human disturbance, oil wells, gas lines, gas houses, etc.
"Give me land lots of land under starry skies above, don't fence me in...." Hehe!
~SH~
[ April 03, 2011, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 03, 2011 12:15 PM
That's a great song I remember from my childhood, where did you hear it, reruns of Big Valley? haha
We just don't get this sort of dialogue anywhere else, that I know of? I hope those that are disappointed in the personal shit and silly stuff remember that we also have intelligent discussion, once in a while.
Thanks, gentlemen, we appreciate what we are reading!
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted April 03, 2011 12:51 PM
Thanks, gentlemen, we appreciate what we are reading!
AGREE'D, GOOD STUFF.to you ADC guys, how much trouble are coyotes to sheep if there is ample wild food for them to live on??
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted April 03, 2011 02:33 PM
Well, it's simple Bearhunter. Which would be easier for you to catch, a baby antelope that is quiet, hidden and when disturbed can run like the wind, or a baby lamb that is slow, noisy, and dumb? Thats just me being a smartass, but sorta true. It does help cut down on killing when there is an abundance of prey species, but sometimes coyotes just kill because they're coyotes. They thrill kill, they kill teaching pups to hunt, and sometimes they kill to eat. Some of the wortst killing I ever saw was just last summer by a coyote that was a dry bitch and I think she was trying to feed some half grown pups that I had killed the adults off of and couldn't find all the pups. She wasn't eating anything, but thought it was her duty to stockpile dead sheep everywhere for those pups, and she did a good job of it. She wouldn't call and was pretty sharp to the airplane. It took a while to kill her and she racked up some impressive numbers of big expensive lambs.
[ April 03, 2011, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted April 03, 2011 04:00 PM
3 Toes: "Which would be easier for you to catch, a baby antelope that is quiet, hidden and when disturbed can run like the wind, or a baby lamb that is slow, noisy, and dumb?"
Ahhh....the old crippled ewe that is caught in the fence.
~SH~
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted April 03, 2011 04:30 PM
Ahhh....the old crippled ewe that is caught in the fence.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 03, 2011 04:39 PM
Probably a lot funnier for country boys?
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 03, 2011 06:11 PM
"Let me know if you are interested in the Cook Ranch Study"
Yes, I'd be interested in a link to that if you have a title or the primary authors or which journal it was in. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find free access to coyote literature, new and otherwise. Everyone seems to think that I'm affiliated with a University with deep pockets that allow me to pay exorbitant access fees. LOL
As to the google trapline, when used properly, those sites can be invaluable to the hunter, or trapper. When dealing with a new call, the first thing I do is hit the web and look at the area in a 5-mile radius around the location in an attempt to identify travel corridors and bedding sites where the coyotes might be. If they are in my home county, I can use their online GIS system to locate the aerial photographs, then pull down a menu which allows me to get the name and contact information for the person who last paid taxes on the tract of ground. Very helpful.
I don't know which part of Bob's extension program you take exception to, but the strategy I use here is a variant of what I learned from him long ago, adding to it a lot of study time examining the social and biological components of coyotes and their ecology in the environment we share. The latter is not addressed in the extension program and those who received that training were given generalizations rather than taught what I feel is critical information upon which many of my decisions are made today. The producer I used to illustrate my methods was a prime example of both how this strategy can work, and how, when ignored, it will fail.
In the first example when I successfully eliminated his losses, we addressed both aspects of how I deal with them - the offender and the opportunity. While I identified the reasons that contributed to the problem and got him to change his practices, I also went after the offending coyote and was successful in removing him.
In the subsequent problem, he chose to pasture his sheep without thinking about the easy opportunity he was giving the local coyotes for a free meal. Of course, they took it and even if he'd called me, we'd have been behind that eight ball trying to play catch up when the game was already lost. Going in now, before he moves his sheep to that pasture, isn't really all that effective either as this area is stinking with coyotes and for every one I could remove, seven more will fill the void. Therefore, I simply told him that grazing his sheep up there, away from the safety and security offered at home where his dogs and corrals offer shelter, is a losing proposition and that maybe he should change his rotation to lambing at home and grazing them there later when they're bigger and better able to protect themselves by evading capture.
In another case, the sheep man had heavy grass - I'm talking eight feet tall stuff - right up to his corrals. I suggested he shed his ewes and lambs at night which was right there for him to do with very little change, and swath all that stalking cover so we had open ground to call them onto when we worked the area. The first time on site this fall, I popped a yearling coyote at sixty yards just as she stepped out of that grass at sixty yards. I remember her vividly because at the hit, she teakettled over landing on her nose with her hindlegs stiffened up and her ass sticking straight up in the air. She died like that and I so wish I had a camera. If not for the wind that day, she would have stayed like that until I got her. Instead, the wind finally blew her over about four minutes later. We managed to remove three other coyotes from the perimeter around his operation this season and he successfully raised every lamb his stock produced - about forty or so.
My situation is vastly different than what you and Cal deal with. I wouldn't be worth a spit in your country because changing how a produer runs his operation to eliminate the opportunity isn't practical there, and you'd be feeling very fenced in around here.
I will say that every time I work around a sheep operation, I look at those little lambs and wonder to myself just who in the hell would ever think to try and raise these things where coyotes hunt. Like putting chicken McNuggets in front of a table full of four year olds.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted April 08, 2011 07:07 PM
Cdog: "Yes, I'd be interested in a link to that if you have a title or the primary authors or which journal it was in."
I'll see what I can do to find it. Very busy right now and it's in my office.
Cdog: "I don't know which part of Bob's extension program you take exception to, but the strategy I use here is a variant of what I learned from him long ago,....."
Cdog: "The producer I used to illustrate my methods was a prime example of both how this strategy can work, and how, when ignored, it will fail".
Cdog: "While I identified the reasons that contributed to the problem and got him to change his practices, I also went after the offending coyote and was successful in removing him."
Extension trappers are supposed to teach ranchers how to take care of their own problems but how many times does that really work? It sounds good in theory but in many cases, it's simply not practical. Allow me to explain.
Let's start with husbandry practices as a part of the extension approach. It's great that you talked this guy into shedding his lambs at night but not many guys I know have the time or the situation required to do this. Most guys that bring their sheep in at night are running small farm flocks and they are at the place every day. Having someone available to bring the sheep in every night and let them out every morning is the exception, not the rule. As you mentioned, that's not practical out west in big range operations but it's not even practical for most small farm flocks either.
You also gave good advise to keep the cover down. Again, it's a rare rancher that will cut down cover when it creates a safe haven for coyotes rather than waiting until he's ready to cut it for hay.
Bottom line is that you and a friend had to remove the problem coyotes once they started killing. That is direct control unlike the extension approach advocated by Bob Henderson. The Rancher didn't stop the killing, you did. As you know, finding a rancher that can consistently call and shoot problem coyotes is also the exception rather than the rule.
Even if the rancher was bringing the sheep in and letting them out, in many cases, the problem coyotes will simply resort to killing them during the day. Seen it many times so you still have to have someone remove the offending animals just as you did.
Between the practicality of finding a situation where someone can bring their sheep in and let them out and finding someone who can successfully call and shoot a coyote, how efective is an extension approach? In most cases, it's not.
Perhaps I haven't really went into details about why I take issue with Bob Henderson's extension approach. First, as mentioned, it's simply not practical in many situations or guys would take care of their own problems. Losing lambs is costing them a lot of money. If the extension approach was successful, they would be taking care of their own problem rather than losing lambs. Calling an extension trapper for advise when coyotes are killing sheep is not unlike calling an extension electrician for advise on wiring a house. Most guys would rather hire an electrician.
Second, the A/R folks who oppose the killing of any coyotes sunk their teeth into this extension program and saw this as the replacement for hired ADC specialists killing problem coyotes. Bob gave everyone the impression that giving advise on problem coyotes was successful in stopping the problem when it's been proven time and again that it's not. No, it's not my bias talking either, it's a fact. Rather than being forthright regarding the limitations of an extension program, Bob was giving everyone the impression that it was a viable replacement for direct control which it's not.
That's my problem with Bob Henderson.
Cdog: "Going in now, before he moves his sheep to that pasture, isn't really all that effective either as this area is stinking with coyotes and for every one I could remove, seven more will fill the void."
Not at this time of year. 60% of the population is locking into an area. Yearlings are usually not as big a problem as territorial adults. Stop and think about it, they are getting ready to drop pups in the adjoining areas so why would they move now? Most territorial adults in surrounding areas wouldn't move this late in the year.
Cdog: "My situation is vastly different than what you and Cal deal with. I wouldn't be worth a spit in your country because changing how a produer runs his operation to eliminate the opportunity isn't practical there, and you'd be feeling very fenced in around here".
I'd bet that changing how a producer runs his operation isn't practical for most sheepmen in your area either. You are just not going to find a lot of sheep operations willing to bring their sheep in at night and let them out in the mornings because most folks don't have the time or they're not always around.
You did a great job helping these guys but I'm just saying that someone still had to remove the problem coyotes and it wasn't the rancher.
~SH~
[ April 08, 2011, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 08, 2011 07:35 PM
Points well taken. No hurry on that journal piece. At your earliest convenience is fine.
And as an aside, I don't mind when a producer has to have me come out and remove those coyotes. In these parts, telling folks you can fix a coyote problem will get you onto land. Showing them that you can do it gets you onto a LOT of land. My partner and I picked up about 6k more acres today on reputation alone from two brothers who say, "We have more coyotes than anyone would want." I like to hear that. LOL
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted April 09, 2011 05:04 AM
On the topic of coyotes filling the voids, as mentioned, when you remove the territorial adult coyotes at this time of year, usually (varies from area to area) about 60% of the population is den related and territorial while 40% is non den related, generally younger in age, and mobile. Those neighboring family groups, depending on population, human disturbance levels, habitat, and food, will USUALLY not become mobile until mid July when the pups can be moved without being carried. Again this varies but as a general "rule of thumb". Usually the lambs are big enough by mid July to where the rancher might get by without problems until sale day in the fall. I've also seen coyotes move back in as quick as you could remove a pair and before mid July but as a general rule they don't. The worst exception to this rule would be high coyote populations with limited food availability in marginal habitat.
~SH~
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted April 29, 2011 03:04 PM
I always have more to think about when you guys talk shop. Thanks.
The budget passed, are you back in the air?
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted April 29, 2011 07:45 PM
Bryan, no we are not!! I don't think it is 100% dead but dam close!
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 29, 2011 09:04 PM
Man, that must really suck?
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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WyoColoDogger
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3822
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posted April 30, 2011 07:36 AM
I spent two years in Pierre some of the best damndest coyote hunting of my life! At that time the feds were doing a ton of aerial stuff be even so, they would fly tuesday and I was nocking them dead Thursday.
If it was good back then even with the ADC work it could only get better now that its stopped. i always wanted to go back.
Did I mention Kansas City, where I am stuck working sucks? GREAT Cabelas though!!!!!!!
Posts: 12 | From: Wyo/Colo | Registered: Apr 2011
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted May 01, 2011 08:11 AM
That does suck. For you and your producers.
I would dare bet that a lot of farmers and ranchers would rather see their monthly phone call go away before that did.
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted June 01, 2011 10:21 PM
Due to recent conversations and ongoings i had to go back and re-read this entire post so i will have to chime in.
Lance the letting the coyotes get setteled in comment..... That is actually a topic of debate amongst some trappers i have done it both way and am still not a 100% sure on how i feel dealing with smaller sheep numbers than some guys out here. Big numbers good luck!! Remove when you can and play clean up as they drop them. Good work on the work you have done but as stated earlier its tougher with bigger numbers. I did get my largest sheep producer to change lambing pastures this year so maybe there's hope! LOL
Scott: the "no denning topic if you're doing your job" just comes down to sheep numbers and resources plain and simple. MY area and MY sheep numbers it depends on the weather more than anything. If i can fly early and set equipment early and get where i want to early great if not....my dens numbers go up. I had last year a pair that was traveling with pups still in the hole 5-6 miles as a crow flies to kill lambs (lamb skulls found at den) i thought i created a big enough buffer zone..... they never cease to amaze me.
On the ranchers not knowing enough themselves or taking the time to learn on whats going on i would agree for 70% of them. Start skinning out a lamb or calf that they think is coyote killed and watch there eyes poke out of their head, show them the canine puncture wounds or lack there of and watch them stare in disbelief kind of like when you bitch to a high sheep numbers trapper about the calve killing you have going on they don't understand because why would coyotes be killing calves when there is sheep everywhere! ![[Wink]](wink.gif) What they don't know...they don't know.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted June 05, 2011 06:00 AM
quote:
Scott: the "no denning topic if you're doing your job" just comes down to sheep numbers and resources plain and simple. MY area and MY sheep numbers it depends on the weather more than anything. If i can fly early and set equipment early and get where i want to early great if not....my dens numbers go up. I had last year a pair that was traveling with pups still in the hole 5-6 miles as a crow flies to kill lambs (lamb skulls found at den) i thought i created a big enough buffer zone..... they never cease to amaze me.
I agree, it depends on your resources.
Try having your ADC hours cut by 30%, not being properly trained, and not having an aerial hunting program while trying to cover districts that are larger than they used to be.
Welcome to the SD WDM program!
As always, I will face any and all consequences for stating the truth.
~SH~
[ June 05, 2011, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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