This is topic Hello, experts? How is 9mm better than 40S&W in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 09, 2019, 08:39 AM:
I'm telling ya. So many people that apparently own a 9mm, like V***** have announced to the shooting world that it's "better" than 10mm or 40S&W or while we are at it, maybe even the 45ACP round. I want to know how people can claim, with a straight face that any given handgun chambered in 9mm is actually "better" than anything else?
Is this proclamation due, solely to the fact that you can squeeze a couple more rounds in the magazine? I'm pretty sure this is how most law enforcement types consider best or most effective. From what I have gathered, they actually consider the fact that they have 17 rounds instead of 15. Yes, I know that there will be the once in a lifetime situation, like Northridge, where a couple more rounds will make the difference.
Well, I don't get it? I'm not up on law enforcement theory. Seems like, if I haven't put the bad guy down with the first 3 shots, the next 14, I might as well just close my eyes, and go BANG BANG BANG!
Getting back to the question. I can look at a 9mm and I can look at a 40S&W and it seems plain as the nose on my face. I can load the 40 to the same pressures as the 9mm +P+ and the 40 wins every time.
Is that what they are teaching in cop schools these days? A blizzard of 9mm launched downrange is far superior to a 40 that has two less cartridges in the magazine. Perhaps I'm not being fair? Explain me? Exactly how is the 9mm better?
I have always subscribed to the tactile feel of cartridges. When you reach in a pocket, you naturally grab a 45 over a 9mm. Is this scientific? Works for me. Show me how a 9mm is better, more effective. I just read it this morning, it was on the Internet, it must be true.
Unless you are talking about 17 versus 15, how is the 9mm better?
Convince me!
Good hunting. El Bee
PS Don't argue that the girls shoot it better, please!
[ March 09, 2019, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 09, 2019, 11:34 AM:
THREE HOURS AND NOBODY KNOWS?
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 09, 2019, 12:04 PM:
I don't know squat about 9mm.
I do know that common sense would indicate that a .45 would be the caliber of choice in a fight. Most people don't want the carry weight and opt for something like the less effective .380 or 9mm, though.
History tells us that Wild Bill Hickock favored .36 caliber in black powder when larger calibers were available to him. Go figure.
Mayhap the answer is just to pick something that you'll have with you if and when the need arises and learn to shoot it well ?????
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 09, 2019, 01:24 PM:
Yes, well I think you have that sneaky Pete gadget which hides a Ruger 380ACP, right? You mo betta than my 32ACP.
But, come to think of it, that is the same logic, or argument. Why can't a 380 be just as good as a 9mm? Assuming you handload, opt for performance and suddenly you got a 9mm in a nice compact package.
I think it's the same thing. how can a 9mm outperform a 40, except in one's mind.
I don't know what the performance is, a 380 versus 9mm? Let us say same bullet. What's standard, 124 grain? So, same diameter but it's slower. Maybe 200fps?
These people keep dreaming. You can't make performance by wishing it. A 380 ain't a 9mm. Period. I'm pretty sure.
That fat boy at Turner's still pisses me off. He was grandstanding, jacking the slide on the Glock he was holding at least 4 times, just for the dramatic effect. See, I jacked it 4 times and now I'm sure it's empty and how could I ever shoot myself in the leg? That's the key, be sure it's unloaded. That way, nobody has ever shot themselves in the leg. He's so smart, how'd he get so fat?
Anyway, you don't really want to kill anybody, right? Just scare them, wound them in the arm, something like that? Is a 380 considered lethal? Oh, I guess it COULD BE? Occasionally, in the right hands. Not to be picking on the 380, it's a hell of a lot more lethal than my 32auto. Same difference. It's the fear factor and the misplaced confidence that I have the means to defend myself. But, only if I'm close enough to ask him to dance. Remember, this Seacamp doesn't have ANY sights, front or back.
Does anybody know, can anybody tell me exactly how a 9mm is better than a 40?
Another thing, every single cartridge I have bought, in 40S&W has a truncated bullet, kinda Keith style? The 9mm I have seen they are all almost a pointed FMJ, not at all blunt like a 45ACP. How is that shape going to transfer energy? Right, it won't, will it? These 9mm people are blowing smoke, the fat guy is full of shit. He doesn't know, he read about it on line. When I go pick up my gun, I'm going to look for him; hard to miss? I think he's closer to 400 than 350. A real muffin top! I'll ask him for data, show me the effectiveness of a 9mm over a 40. He sure pissed me off, can you tell?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: hard to figure. in the first place, all the loads (380ACP) on Hodgdons show PSI between 15,000 and 19,000. But loads for 9mm Luger were twice that. Anyway, It is 200/250 fps, in round numbers. And, the 40 is way higher performance. All you have to do is shoot both and you learn that right away. Duh
[ March 09, 2019, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 09, 2019, 05:52 PM:
Leonard, I don't necessarily think the 9mm is better than .40. As a matter of fact, the .40 is my favorite handgun cartridge next to to my beloved 10mm.
The terminal ballistics of the .40 are excellent. The 165 grain Gold Dot has put a lot of bad guys down for the agencies that have used it.
But the trend now is going back to 9mm. Why? One could only surmise that the ammo is more affordable to law enforcement agencies. The 9 is easier to train new recruits on, and makes it easier for them to qualify as well. There is a lot of argument that new bullet technology increases the terminal effectiveness of the 9mm. But don't we think that this same technology is applied to .40 cal / 10mm bullets as well? Of course.
Wait until some of these new agencies experience a few failures to "stop." The trend over the years may very well swing back to the bigger and heavier .40 caliber bullets.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 10, 2019, 12:38 AM:
Cuz you can chootem sideways and wave your wrist like a gangsta with out dropping da gun !
With my .40 I use two hands !
[ March 10, 2019, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on March 10, 2019, 04:14 AM:
Leonard not pushing 9s cause I'm a 10mm fan but I,or the wife,have a handful of assorted 9s-mostly autos(glocks,Berettas,etc)
They can be AWFULLY nasty with the ammo available nowadays.Pre our last bowhunt in grizz country I tested some ammo for her.The Underwood 'penetrator' type stuff blew nasty holes right through creosoted fence posts-and anything else I shot it at.Have read about them dropping grizz but...who knows???
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 10, 2019, 08:50 AM:
I have zero experience with a 10mm. I always wondered whatever happened to the Delta Elite many years ago? It disappeared, but I couldn't understand why? It was the next big thing.
Now, of course, everybody is raving about 10mm. Where were they then?
But, I think the 40S&W is a good compromise. Seems to have just enough power to settle a bad guy's hash. I do agree to being able to shoot a 9 better than a 40, if that's the deciding consideration.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 10, 2019, 12:42 PM:
DiYi I have tested some of the Under Extreme Penetrator / Defender as well. It's good stuff in my opinion.
Probably will be my go to NJ round when I retire.
[ March 10, 2019, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 10, 2019, 09:26 PM:
I must be really under gunned. My daily carry piece when in Az for winters, is a revolver, a S&W M19 2 1/2", I keep it stuffed with 148 grain full wad cutters, with a lumbering velocity of around 800 fps. Funny thing is, I don't feel under gunned, Ive killed every thing from a deer to javelina and jack rabbits with it. Ihave a nice Springfield Armory TRP 1911 in .45, love it, very, very accurate, but it's big and heavy as far as pistols go. The little M19, rides in a high ride OWB holster right behind the point of my hip, never know its there, comfortable all day carry, and my light fleece jacket which is my normal wear hides it just fine. We can open carry in Az, but Ive never been fond of advertising, so my carry is "open" you just can't see it.
Here in Florida, I seldom carry a firearm on my person, if I do, it's a Glock 43, that can easily slide in a pocket, but always have my Glock 17 in the truck. I don't care to debate what's "better" as far as caliber, I do think it's "better" to have a firearm handy, than not to, but as to what one chooses to carry, for christs sake, the options and calibers are endless, fucking pick what you like?
[ March 10, 2019, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2019, 01:28 AM:
Well, Victor. I think I agree with your reasoning. Actually I do carry most of the time but it’s the little Seacamp. Hitler shot himself with 32Auto, BTW.
Anyway, also interesting what you actually carry. I used to carry a Lady Smith 38 Model 36, but one day my wife said she would feel better if she had something while I was away. I was gone hunting every other weekend and so I gave it to her. She took instruction from her brother who is certified, teaches armed guards armored car drivers, etc. Well, when she died, another shocker. My daughter, who never expressed any interest in firearms whatsoever asked for her moms gun. I took her up to the range and showed her as much as I could, I’m hardly any kind of qualified instructor. And off she went. But the irksome part is that she keeps it nice and handy. In a locked box on the top shelf of her closet <sigh>
Also interesting. The new gun I will be picking up in a few days is a Springfield Armory stainless in 45ACP. You know what, I don’t know the exact model # right now, the paperwork is still sitting in my truck and I haven’t looked at it since I left the shop. I guess great minds think alike?
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on March 18, 2019, 12:23 PM:
49,yes the EXtreme Penetrator stuff seems scary good.I know I would not feel comfortable in a vehicle,or behind a vehicle door if it was being shot at me.
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 16, 2019, 03:43 AM:
Ran into this yesterday.As 4949 and I mentioned earlier-NASTY bullets.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?_route_=all/458-socom-300gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammo
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 16, 2019, 03:45 AM:
Oops.If interested click on the video there on the tiny 380.That's video is what I meant to post.
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 16, 2019, 06:19 AM:
Went to verify I had the right 380 reference and while there,looked at a couple other videos.
Maybe worth watching what the 10mm Extreme Penetrator did to 'bullet proof' glass.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 16, 2019, 03:36 PM:
Yeah, thanks. Those are all interesting. ko ko should consider that Lehigh load. But in the comments there is some argument about overpenetration, like L.E. applications. Also, I guess there's no happy medium versus HP. I don't have the answer? Some people stick with FMJ for reliable feeding. Can't argue with that either.
So, is that the answer to the original question? A 9mm bullet that is reliably effective? Maybe? But they are about $3.50 each you you don't want to do much more than verify zero, and practice with something else. I've seen a box of 50 9mm Luger for less than nine bucks. I have to admit, I don't have enough empties to justify reloading them yet, don't even own dies. But, I will. Maybe buy this interesting solid bullet. I didn't see how much they go for, maybe I missed that part?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS do the have these in 45ACP? I normally load a magazine with a Blazer as the first round, then a 200 grain Sierra.
edit: the answer appears to be no? I didn't see 45 bullets or 45ACP ammo?
[ April 16, 2019, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 17, 2019, 02:59 AM:
Found these.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?_route_=45-acp-p-200gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammunition
Getting some work done on my truck so no time to check Underwood this AM.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on April 17, 2019, 03:42 AM:
Thanks DiYi interesting stuff !
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 17, 2019, 06:43 AM:
Yes, thanks. That original site had nothing on 45. It sure looks cool!
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 17, 2019, 12:45 PM:
Not sure if this was posted here before, but this is an interesting story on the effectiveness of a 9mm pistol with the right ammo on bear (and a lot of luck):
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/ala ska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/
The ammo used is Tim Sundles' Buffalo Bore, with a 147 grain hard cast bullet.
EDIT: Disregard, it had been posted already by AZ-Hunter.
[ April 17, 2019, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 17, 2019, 03:56 PM:
yes, we looked at it. But as far as I am concerned, and I hate to beat the issue to death, BUT. The round, that caliber is so marginal on brown bear that I think it is a disservice to everybody because a certain few will take from it that they can wander in dangerous woods with an inadequate weapon.
Furthermore, and I've said this before, this fishing guide should be very criticized for attempting to protect TWO clients with a puny Nine Millimeter. The fact that he accomplished it by almost emptying his handgun is further proof that all he did was get lucky. I'm very critical and it's not my argument to defend, it's his....and he can't do it with a straight face. Yes, I give him credit for sticking with it, and he had to know the odds were against him with every round. Six, I believe? And they didn't say what it was, I don't think but it looked like an old S&W Model 59, single stack and he might have had one or two left in the gun. Did he have a spare magazine? Who knows?
I agree with the guy that said; "Use enough gun", and he didn't.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 17, 2019, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 17, 2019, 04:15 PM:
I completely agree concerning using this caliber on large bears Leonard. In the context of this conversation it's relevance is that of shooting human predators and the potential effectiveness of same.
Me? I'd rather stick with .40 S&W, .357 Sig, or my 10mm in a fight. As a matter of fact, I recently told a well known LE contact and author that if I were ever assigned to a unit like the famed NYPD stakeout squad, my weapon / load of choice would be a Glock 20 10mm (15+1 shot load) stoked with Hornady 155 grain XTP @1400 feet per second. But as it is, most police officers and maybe even military and non-LE are better served with a 9mm they can handle. It's better to hit with one or three marginal rounds than miss with a .44 magnum.
Posted by MI VHNTR (Member # 3370) on April 17, 2019, 05:34 PM:
I purchased some of the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator loads for my Delta Elite. I carry it when I'm in the woods at camp. There is a video on you tube showing that bullet going through bullet proof glass, so it should work on a bear. Very impressive to see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 18, 2019, 04:28 AM:
This was wrote by a guy that goes by DocRocket on 24hourcampfire, it's hard to argue with facts but many do. Doc said quite a bit very well here.
"Look, I've been following the Caliber Wars for 30+ years, and I've even had a small hand to play in one minor skirmish, at my own Sheriff's Office about a decade ago. The issue is that people are looking for a solution to a problem that keeps being mis-stated. Let's use the FBI post-mortem meetings after the 1986 Miami Gunfight as an example.
There were many problems in the 1986 gunfight, not the least of which was the "flying squad" underestimating the fighting capability of the felons; failing to arm themselves with rifles for what they should have known would be a rifle fight; making macho decisions on taking them down based on that underestimation; and then using bad tactics that ended up getting themselves shot all to hell; and a host of less egregious errors in tactics, training, and preparation that would take an entire series of blog articles to elucidate. But these issues were all swept under the rug, and the outcome of the AAR was to blame the debacle on one problem, and one problem only: Winchester Silver Tip 9mm 115 gr ammunition.
That's right. They blamed the ammunition carried by some (and only some!) of the FBI agents at the gunfight. Which is how we got the myth about the 9mm being an inadequate fight stopper that some members of this 24HCF still believe to be true. Which is how we ended up with the 10mm cartridge, as an "improved" auto pistol caliber, which turned out to be a difficult round to work with for most cops, which resulted in the 40 S&W round becoming the New Standard for police ammunition. And by 2016, 30 years after the Miami Firefight, the FBI announced that "improvements in ammunition" made the 9mm as good as the 40 S&W, and guess what... everybody and their dog is going back to 9mm as the issue sidearm caliber for American law enforcement.
The problem was never the 9mm. It was never the ammo, or the caliber. The fatal wound that eventually killed Michael Platt was NOT from Ed Mireles' 38 caliber bullets, nor his Remington 12 gauge buckshot, but from Jerry Dove's 9mm 115 gr Silvertip bullet that blew out Platt's pulmonary artery and resulted in mortal hemorrhaging inside his chest. This is known beyond doubt. (It has been reviewed by forensic medicine specialists ad nauseum. I have spent literally hundreds of hours reviewing the work of the docs ahead of me, and explaining to the docs and police trainers I work with.)
I've mentioned Dr. Gary Roberts' group's database before, which is based on every OIS in California over the past couple-three decades. Their data show overwhelmingly that any round that meets the FBI ballistic qualification criteria performs about as well as any other round in that group. From 9mm/38 Special up to 45 ACP, they all work about the same in general.
Here's the deal: if you put your handgun bullets into the cardiovascular bundle in the center of a man's chest, he will bleed out very quickly and collapse from lack of blood flow to the brain; if you put your handgun bullets into the core of the CNS (the brainstem) he will cease all purposeful movement immediately. If you shoot him ANYWHERE else, he may keep fighting you, even though his wounds may be mortal. PERIOD. This is established fact. Settled science, if you will.
Anything that detracts from this message is bullschitt. Waste of time and effort. If your bullets are too anemic to penetrate through the skull and soft tissues to destroy the base of the brain from any angle, or the cardiovascular bundle from any angle, your bullets are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. If your gun recoils so viciously that you can't place your shots into these small anatomic targets from any angle with accuracy, then your gun & ammo are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. Virtually all of the mainstream defense ammunition available on the market today is designed to meet the FBI criteria, which means you don't really have to worry if your ammo is good enough... if you carry a service caliber handgun, and you load it with commercial ammunition, it will get the job done. The question is whether YOU can get the job done.
The handgun caliber or bullet you use in this day and age is far less important than most people realize. Being able to place those shots into a very small anatomic area with speed and precision under stress is far more important. Instead of planning how you're going to be able to pay for your next new Wundergun, you should be planning on finding the money to take some good training in handgun combatives."
[ April 18, 2019, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on April 18, 2019, 04:51 AM:
The handgun caliber or bullet you use in this day and age is far less important than most people realize. Being able to place those shots into a very small anatomic area with speed and precision under stress is far more important. Instead of planning how you're going to be able to pay for your next new Wundergun, you should be planning on finding the money to take some good training in handgun combatives."
Yup !
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 18, 2019, 06:34 AM:
Interesting, and provocative. Herd mentality. Everything’s to blame, it’s nobodys fault. Gear doesn’t matter. It’s training. My granny needs to spend a week at Gunsite or else there’s no way she could ever be able to protect herself. Myself, it’s ce sera, sera, what will be, will be.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: oh, another thing. Finally I get vindication for my puny little 32ACP. It's handy, concealable and I'm a better than average shot, so apparently, I am adequately armed? It's reassuring.
[ April 18, 2019, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 18, 2019, 09:24 AM:
If it will reach the vitals you're good. If not, you're not.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 18, 2019, 01:34 PM:
quote:
I purchased some of the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator loads for my Delta Elite. I carry it when I'm in the woods at camp. There is a video on you tube showing that bullet going through bullet proof glass, so it should work on a bear. Very impressive to see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk
MIVHNTR that's a great video. I actually have the same load as well as the lighter 115 grain Defender. They shoot well out of my Glock. I have always wanted a Delta Elite.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 18, 2019, 01:42 PM:
Interesting post Tom. I agree with most of what he was saying.
However, it is no unknown fact that the FBI agents during that encounter were under prepared. Some weren't even wearing body armor! They also had access to heavier weapons (MP5's I believe) which would have served them much better. Why they chose to operate the way they did that day is a mystery. Law enforcement has learned much from this gun fight.
Ed Mirales may not have anatomically killed Platt, but his one handed operation of a 12 gauge pump (his other arm was wounded) without a doubt put a stop to that fight. Stopping and killing may not always mean the same thing.
[ April 18, 2019, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by MI VHNTR (Member # 3370) on April 18, 2019, 06:40 PM:
4949shooter, that video is an real eye opener.
I haven't tried the 115gr Defender yet. I really should pick some up and try it. I've been using DoubleTap 135 gr controlled expansion hp and Winchester 175 gr Silvertip loads when not in the woods.
The DoubleTap 200gr hardcast works well in the woods as does the Federal Premium 180 gr Trophy bonded sp load.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 19, 2019, 04:17 AM:
MIVHNTR,
I have fired the 200 grain Doubletap Hardcast load as well as thier 230 grain. Both are thumpers. I would feel well armed with either in the back country.
[ April 19, 2019, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 19, 2019, 04:26 AM:
So, how long before those Extreme Penetrator rounds get banned as 'Cop-Killers' ?????
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 19, 2019, 04:30 AM:
Trying to keep that aspect quiet, Koko.
Some youtubers seeking to grab attention for themselves have already posted videos of these rounds having been shot into soft body armor. Bad for the bullet and bad for the cops. There is no need to post such videos on an open forum.
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 19, 2019, 09:26 AM:
Yup...AND getting through whatever may be in the way to those areas.Not always talking thin skin here.Particularly in the military context.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 19, 2019, 11:03 AM:
Well, thanks to this thread, I just spent all morning watching video, primarily Paul Harrell. I found out I'm a self appointed expert with an opinion on springs and guns, in general. Actually, it was pretty addictive. He's entertaining. But what I was mainly interested in was his explanation of the Dade FBI shootout and he also touched on the Newhall killing as well.
Very interesting stuff. First of all, my personal opinion of FBI has always been 50% cop and 50% lawyer. Maybe things have changed but the way they have been portrayed lately, 50% lawyer, 50% Liberal, and 35% police officer, if that? That's a personal opinion, subject to change, of course. Many claim this attitude only pertains to the upper echelons. I don't know any of them; I think we might have a couple in my club, and if so, let me add; 35% prick.
Okay, cop killer stuff. Well, what is the intent of bringing a firearm to bare, or is it to bear, on any assailant. I guess incapacitate the individual, eliminate the threat, right? In that case penetrator bullets probably have their place, but since body armor was brought up, what about the various hollow point ammo available? Or hybrid like the Lehigh. (PS, I'm also jealous of that Delta Elite)
Hardcast bullets will always be primarily a hand loading proposition and I don't even want to get into casting bullets. I have casted lead and aluminum and brass and don't want to get sidetracked beyond my belt weights for diving and the neat chess set I sand casted, which is very cool, BTW. Bullets? I will buy them if available if and when I REALY need them but it hasn't happened yet. I also worry about fouling the bore with non jacketed bullets and lead is very difficult to remove. At least for me. But, some people talk about hardcast bullets like they are THEE solution, so maybe they are? I'm not interested enough to find out for myself.
I'm not for banning any of these things, cop killer bullets or body armor or hyper velocity ammo. I don't think the general public knows that the body armor that cops wear won't stop most rifle ammo and I'm not even sure if it will stop that 10mm penetrator round? But does that mean it should be banned? What if I own a jewelry store and some guy walks in with body armor and I turned in my banned Delta Elite? Could happen. Then, I shoot for the face, but we all know how that turned out for what's his name, former Nixon guy that was hired by one of the networks and told everybody the obvious solution, shoot for the head. He's not around much anymore, and that's what happens with an uncomfortable truth; nobody wants to hear it.
Anyway, interesting discussion, keep it up.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: if I need to shoot somebody wearing body armor, if I can't hit the head, the next most vulnerable place is the sides, where there isn't any armor.
[ April 19, 2019, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 19, 2019, 02:08 PM:
This stupid device I'm on won't play YouTube stuff so bear, or is it bare, with me.
Look up Jerod Reston, I may have posted his story before but it's worth watching again. He's the cop that was shot in the face with a 45 and dished out 40 cal rounds to his assailant.
I'll never look at any pistol round the same again.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 19, 2019, 06:11 PM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_FwUfFhFHs
He also switched to a 9mm...
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 20, 2019, 04:56 AM:
I've seen that before. Way to stay in the fight!
Even he said it himself, you have to have "good hits."
No different than hunting. Shots gotta connect in the right spot. I don't blame him for switching to 9 mike mike. The nine is indeed easier to shoot than .40, .45, etc.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 21, 2019, 02:13 AM:
I couldn't watch that! When you have a guy with a jungle beard and I can't read his lips, he is not understandable for me. And boring. So, just tell me his conclusions, which must be profound? Is it that he got in a fight and his firearm didn't perform, or what? And, he is now a firm believer in the 9mm? Yeah, maybe he is? That's the trend, the groupthink going on with a lot of people since the military changed their mind and stayed with 9mm. Now we have to demonstrate what a smart move it was.
I agree with one part, the 9mm is easier to shoot, especially for the untrained. I suppose we could go a step further and claim the 380ACP is more effective because it's easier to shoot. I need to stop right there before I box myself in because my Seecamp 32ACP IS NOT EASIER TO SHOOT! In fact, it's a bitch! I think, all in all that I'd rather shoot 3 boxes of souped up 44 Mag than 15 or 20 rounds in the Seecamp. It's just a miserable little fucker to shoot, but I keep thinking that when the chips are down, I won't even notice.
So, I think I just made a case for a happy medium? How about everybody get off where they are most comfortable instead of declaring that the 9mm is good enough? That's the whole idea with the BIG SWITCH. From revolvers to automatics. More rounds available.
Like was said in Miami Dade. One guy was a medal winner in competition and he got off 24 rounds and he "might" have hit the bad guy in the hand, once. Or the guy with the revolver and no speed loader, and he made sure to take the time to put his empties in his pocket. No litterbug! I think he was rushed and killed. So, now that we have 15 and 17 round magazines, we might as well use them! But, the champion marksman lost his glasses and therefore, couldn't hit shit. Spray and pray, 25 rounds, if he had one in the chamber to begin with?
Now, to conform, so that the pussies can handle the marksmanship training, we get rid of the 40S&W and get something a little more comfortable to shoot. EVERYBODY!
At this point, I'd say something like, let's all get 22's because they are easy to shoot. According to Paul Harrell, they are also unreliable. I don't know that rimfire were unreliable but it must be true, I heard it on the Internet. I'm just kind of surprised at all the people that have convinced themselves that the 9mm is good enough. (with hot ammo)
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 21, 2019, 04:05 AM:
22's are unreliable, I shoot a lot of them and you'd be shocked at how many duds there are in a brick of most any brand. Hang around a Steel Challenge match and watch everyone have at least one fail to go boom.
As for Jerod Reston, when you get shot in the mouth with a 45, maybe a beard is necessary? His point is handguns are poor fight stoppers unless you put a bullet in the CNS. The more ammo you have, the better you shoot the gun, the higher your odds of surviving are. Enough good bullets that you shoot well and the determination to not only survive but to win, is what it takes.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 21, 2019, 08:35 AM:
Ok thanks, I couldn't even get that out of it. I admit, if that's the case, of course, grow a beard. Everybody knows I am anti beard, right ko ko? But in my defense, since my hearing is shot from the military and ever since, I'm a lip reader. With the bushface, I couldn't understand anything he said, and after 5 minutes couldn't endure any more of it. I rather have read what he had to say. Granted, somebody that has been through anything like that, deserves to be heard.
But, still. I really feel 9mm is kind of a pip-squeak round. Doesn't seem like just the ticket to settle anyone's hash, so to speak. I've never been shot, of course. (been shot at, out on the "Lone Prairie")
However, I don't need to be a bonified expert to have an opinion. I say, for LB, it's use enough gun. I'll never forgive myself for going to Africa with a 300Mag. and then killing everything with a 6mm that was intended just for jackals. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: PS you are right, I have not experience any misfires or failures with a 22. Other than chambering. I guess that means I don't shoot enough and that's probably true. I'm not very interested in rimfires.
[ April 21, 2019, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 21, 2019, 12:56 PM:
I've never understood why someone would undergo a daily ritual to make their face look like a baby's butt. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I razor-burned my chin once too often about 4 decades ago & it hasn't happened since. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 21, 2019, 02:53 PM:
Now, that's funny! And I deserve it. Touche'
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 25, 2019, 12:27 PM:
Just a heads up in case anyone is thinking about trying a box(s) of Underwood ammo.Now until April 28th there is a 10% off '2019NRA' sale.
Just use discount code "2019NRA" at checkout.
Not a biggie but 10 is 10.
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 27, 2019, 03:38 AM:
Also,finally the Glock for LB.
https://us.glock.com/en/pistols/g45-mos
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 27, 2019, 08:52 AM:
Oh, I get it! Ha Ha!
So many strikes against. First, undoubtedly unavailable in The People's Republik. 2) it's a Glock, and #3 it's a 9mm.
Other than that, Gee thanks! Can't wait to get my sweaty little hands on one of these beauties!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 27, 2019, 02:19 PM:
If you like 45 ACP Leonard, you might want to consider s Glock 30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qftlD9xugS0
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 27, 2019, 02:23 PM:
Also, it appears to be legal in Kalifornia according to this list:
https://www.oag.ca.gov/firearms/certguns
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 27, 2019, 03:08 PM:
Thanks, 49. But. I don't think you get it? I'm not particularly enamored of 45, although I just bought one; just for the heck of it. And, I can't be buying a new handgun every month. Even if I wanted to, my financial situation wouldn't allow it.
However, there is no chance of me suddenly buying a Glock. They might be the greatest handgun on the face of the earth, but I'll never find out, I have an embedded dislike for all Glocks, part of my maverick attitude of not running with the crowd. It might be ignorant and ill informed, but that's it; no Glocks for this kid. I think they would appeal to Euro Liberals. Ouch! Sorry, low blow!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: Hey, I just scrolled that link, handguns we are allowed to purchase in the People's Republic. Also, the recently delisted guns. What an incredible boondoggle! Makes me sick!
[ April 27, 2019, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 30, 2019, 04:09 AM:
Okay my mistake Leonard. I thought you were a .45 guy.
Understood, we can't all be Glockaholics..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 30, 2019, 07:30 AM:
No mistake, at all. You know that famous Strother Martin quote: "What we got here is a failure to communicate."
Or, my personal favorite, from Butch Cassidy: "BINGO!"
Anyway, I can't help it! Next to my dislike for AR's, the next (currently) is Glocks and their many numbers and why, if I may ask, do they start with 17? What happened to 1 through 16?
And, yeah, .45 is a good one, I admit that. That's the whole point of this thread, that is it or isn't it? the 9mm round adequate? With what little I know, my opinion is that the cartridge is MARGINAL. Some feel differently, and maybe they are entitled to their opinion a bit more than I am. I'm not even a handgun people. I consider myself a rifleman, about 80%. then 8% shotgun and 8% handgun, and that's the extent of my bonafides.
But, I do think the 40S&W is a lot more legit as a personal defense cartridge than the wildly famous and popular 9mm.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 30, 2019, 03:39 PM:
There are two schools of thought on the Glock numerology.
One is the Glock 17, their first handgun, has a 17 round magazine capacity.
The other more plausible school of thought is that it was Gaston Glock's 17th patent. Prior to manufacturing handguns, Glock manufactured other items such as knives and shovels.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 01, 2019, 04:18 AM:
When and if the time comes to defend your guns 2-A
a bolt action ain't gonna get it. you will be glad for that old colt in your safe! Parts easily accessible , hell I built my son an AR with a shillen barrel and a Timmney trigger for less than 600 bucks . Ragged hole shooter btw!
Hope none of this happen but with the dems anything can go !
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 01, 2019, 06:34 AM:
Damn Paul, you paint an ugly scenario. Do you really think the Dinks want to take away my deer rifle? They just want "common sense" gun laws where I could still go to a secure location and look at my gun, but probably not shoot it.
So, I think you nailed the reason why I still have that old Colt A1. It may come in handy, if I have the balls to use it. That's the thing about Girly Men, (Liberals) I think they have no balls? There must be a way they have been chemically castrated by being fed that progressive bullshit for so long. And another thing. Does Hillary look like she's juiced up on testosterone, or what? I thought Trump drove a stake through her heart in 2016? But she still thinks she was robbed. Almost makes me feel sorry for the worthless bitch.
Where were we? Oh yeah! You need to show me where I can get one of those sub MOA machine guns that I hear about all the time. Then I can stack all of my clunky bolt actions out at the curb on trash day. Thank you.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 11, 2019, 06:23 AM:
A new 10mm 1911 is out for LB:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/dan-wessons-kodiak-10mm-1911/
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2019, 09:31 AM:
Yes, thanks! I'll put it on my Christmas list. Good looking, no doubt. Unusual arrangement on the barrel lock, looks upside down? The price is three times what I paid for my Springfield A1, which is very well made, by the way. Although it's 45ACP. I don't know? A 10mm is a tempting option, but are they a bitch to shoot? Maybe the 6" barrel is helpful? Tritone is slick, but is it gilding the Lilly? That treatment, whatever it is, ceracoat or ? won't last forever. My stainless 1911A1 will, and it has VERY similar sights, by the way.
Three grand is reasonable at your bracket, but I keep telling you, I'm on a very modest fixed income! Get the gang together and contribute. Then I would be very grateful!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on June 01, 2019, 04:41 AM:
LB,here you go,a
glock 9 to love.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/05/31/approaching-mach-2-with-a-glock/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2019-06-01&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 01, 2019, 07:42 AM:
El Bee is so anti-Glock that he likely won't see past the chick-a with the big butt & white-wall haircut.
She is kinda hot in a skanky kind of way, though. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 03, 2019, 08:41 PM:
You say that like it's a flaw in my personality? Just because your hero and mine, (Victor) loves his Glocks does not make it graven in stone, as JH used to say. Besides, it turns out he now owns a Springfield Armory 45ACP, and loves the thing! OK, I just made that part up, but true Glock men wouldn't be caught dead at the range shooting a 1911.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: PS oh yeah, I forgot to comment on that, (what the hell was it, 9X25?) like they said in the comments, the 38 Super has been around since (I believe) 1930 something? And, it does it, if that's how you want to get it done? The thing is, 38 Super is a Mexican cartridge for the 1911 and the reason is because that country have been afraid of a revolution for at least 75 years, and they desperately need one. They do not allow any rifle or handgun to be chambered in a military cartridge so that's why they don't have 45ACP and 30'06. Instead, they have 38 Super and 270Winchester. Used to be, but I'm not current down there anymore. I got smart. LB
[ June 03, 2019, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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