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Posted by Ariel Perez (Member # 4678) on July 19, 2018, 01:01 PM:
 
What is everybody’s thoughts on the 22 cm? It seems to be the new hot caliber that everybody is building for their coyote rigs, just curious if anybody has one. Do you like it? Is it all it’s cracked up to be? I have been shooting a 243 for the last 6-7 years and I just can’t get myself to switch. I have one that’s shoots 58 grain vmax and another one that shoots 70 nosler. My barrel for the 58 grain finally went out so I’m just curious if I just buy a 22cm barrel or should I stick with the 243?? Is the BC that big of a difference to convert?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2018, 01:11 PM:
 
First of all, what is a 22cm?

You know, a 243 is kinda hard to beat if all you want is a cartridge for killing coyotes. I have a 243 that I use the 70 Nosler and it is one of the more destructive bullets I have ever used in 243. Nothing wrong with that, if you don't care about the fur. I don't have a heck of a lot of experience with the lighter bullets but did shoot the 60 gr, Sierra in a 6mm for quite a while. Good killer and very accurate.

Anyway, when it comes to good 224 caliber cartridges for coyotes, again, it's hard to beat a 22-250Ackley. I don't know what it is about a 22CM that makes it popular, since I never heard of it, but to be superior to the 22-250 AI, that's a tall order.

So, what about it? Loaded ammunition? Availability of brass? an efficient volume/ratio type of thing, or what? Even if I don't know what it is, I can figure it out if you give me a hint.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Ariel Perez (Member # 4678) on July 19, 2018, 01:24 PM:
 
22 Creedmoor, it’s 6.5 cm brass necked down to a 22 cal. Everything I have read and heard word of mouth says it’s a lot better then a 22-250ai or even the 22-243. All the Okkies and Texas boys are using them now days. KJ is a big believer in them I believe he has two or three, I just wanted to get some comparison between a 243 and 22cm from somebody who has both and is it worth it to make the switch. They say you can shoot 75 grain at 3500-3600??? Nobody makes factory ammo yet but a few companies are making 22 cm brass so that’s a good start.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2018, 03:01 PM:
 
Thank you. That Creedmore is quite a buzzword, if nothing else. Is there anything new under the sun? Doubtful? What you said about 75 grain bullets in a .224" bore does tell me something about the motivation.

You realize that, (or maybe you don't) that personally, I have killed thousands of coyotes and never one required a 75 grain bullet. So, Creedmore begs long distance. 75 grain begs long distance. Nothing new under the sun, it also hasn't changed that the majority of coyotes are killed within 100 yards, not 600, so that's not stand hunting as I know it.

Long range? 22 versus 24 bore, (in my opinion) everything favors the 6mm ballistically. With great effort, maybe some enterprising young man (like Fred) can come up with an exotic that could run with a .243" bore. But, big BUT, those same people can start tinkering with a 24 Redline with a 105 gr. hybrid. Then what? If it makes you happy and it works, go for it....because, everybody is building a dream. My personal Thor's Hammer is, and has been for a long time, the nice 25'06Ackley. I'm on my third. Nobody can convince me that for my purpose, night hunting from a rig, it's the best solution. Within my definition of best, and purpose. Yes, that's long range, but practical long range. At night, you are just kidding yourself to be banging away at coyote 600 yards away. Just try walking out there a half a mile at night and finding a dead coyote, if you can estimate the distance correctly and hit him, in the first place.

If you got to have something exotic that nobody else has, go for it. I mean, very few has one so it makes you cool. But, if your stand hunting is restricted to 300 yards or less, like the rest of us, another 243 will work for another 5-6 or 7 years quite nicely.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, just practical. Let us know what you decide.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Ariel Perez (Member # 4678) on July 19, 2018, 03:26 PM:
 
yes sir you are exactly right it’s a long range coyote gun. Nobody talked about it to me the way you just did and yup I made up my mind, ordering another 243 barrel. Because let’s be honest, the furthest shot I probably take in a year is 250-300 yards and to be honest that maybe happens once a year. I get that certain individuals shoot coyotes that far or have the terrain for further shots and practice long range but not this desert rat. Like you stated above most coyotes are shot within 100 yards and for me that couldn’t be more true, during the fall and winter I mainly shotgun hunt and if I’m after fox or cats I’ll break out the 22 hornet but when I’m chasing coyotes it’s usually the 12 gauge minus a few exceptions here and there. Only time I really use a rifle is during the summer with the dogs and during contest if the stand allows for it. Anyhow I appreciate the conversation and reminding me that I live in az and am by no means a long range shooter👍🏼
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 19, 2018, 07:07 PM:
 
Ariel,
El Bee gives good solid advice. I, on the other hand, will lead you astray even though I barely know anything about regular calibers let alone exotic stuff.
First of all, get the .243 up and running. The Devil you know & all of that.
Then; …….."All of the Okies & Texas boys are using them ………." Meaning; Before too long you should be able to pick up a decent used one." Buy it & try it. Then you'll either want to build a more better one or you'll have gotten the whole thing out of your system.
Remember, in the long run, we tend to regret the things that we didn't do more than we obsess with guilt over the things that we did do.
Besides, practice long range shots and the 150s start to look like easy plinkers.


 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2018, 05:58 AM:
 
To further confuse the issue. Just because you don't have a valid, or practical reason for building an exotic chambering doesn't mean you can't do it just for the hell of it. We all can be such skinflints about certain things and then spend money like a drunken sailor on wildcat chambering. Especially when you don't think it through, or get a really fast twist, or a too short barrel, or don't consider that part of it, at all. It's also nice if you have a friend that already did it and can coach you past some snags. You know, the whole project can be a waste if you don't have a clue about appropriate, or correct powder. The propellant. I actually know somebody that burned up a barrel of a 6/284, in less than 400 rounds while wandering around, working up a load. Why reinvent the wheel when there are people that have gone before you that will steer you in the right direction.

As far as CREEDMORE anything, I don't get it? I read ads every day, some new rifle and it's only offered in 2 or 3 chambering and damned if one of them isn't a Creedmore! (I'm probably misspelling it?) Actually, my suspicion is that it's a friggin' BUZZWORD! The word itself is worth a half an inch accuracy and maybe 200 f.p.s. velocity. Used to be, 220Swift conjured up exotic mystical performance, now it's CREEDMORE

But, sometimes a plain vanilla cartridge is all you need, if you are practical and can resist exotic labels. Ha! For me, the magic words was ACKLEY IMPROVED. Fortunately, it wasn't a bum steer, as long as I did my homework.

Whatever, now when you order that 243 barrel, make sure you get the specs right, and have a good idea of the type of bullet you intend using.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 20, 2018, 06:55 AM:
 
I think that I'm just going to re-name my .223 the TACTICAL CREEDMORE IMPROVED TWENTY TWO THREE.
Should be worth at least a couple of extra coyotes a year and saves time & coin on gunsmithing.


 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2018, 06:59 AM:
 
Wait a minute! You actually have a 223? I might have to put you on probation? What on earth do you do with it? No wonder you revert to flinging pointed sticks at coyotes.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 20, 2018, 07:11 AM:
 
Actually, I have three.
(1) A Thompson Contender set up as a carbine w/4x scope that's a sweetheart to shoot.
(2) A Savage .223 / 12 Gauge O/U with a 1.5 to 4 x scope that's as effective as it is ugly.
and
(3) THE M ONE FOUR TEEN TACTICAL CREEDMORE IMPROVED TWENTY TWO THREE that is Hell on any coyote out about 100 yards.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 20, 2018, 07:12 AM:
 
Yep, the 22 creed is becoming very popular with a lot of coyote hunters. Not just here in OK either. I believe it is a spin off from the growing popularity of long range shooting where the 6 and 6.5 are popular cartridges. I know several people shooting the 22CM. I also think there is a trend to lean towards the heavier for caliber bullets, again coming from the popularity of long range shooting.

As far as the 22cm being better than the 22-250AI, well, that I don't see. I have owned both 6 and 6.5CM and am on my second barrel of my 22-250AI. The case capacity is almost identical (with a slight advantage to the AI). With the 22CM though, there is no fire forming, but the hornady brass is junk IMO and the alpha brass and lapua brass is too pricey to be left behind on a coyote stand.....again, just my opinion. I can get many reloads out of cheap old winchester brass as long as I dont oversize my brass too much.

I'm not knocking the 22CM, I think it is a good cartridge for coyotes. But a 75g bullet going 3500+fps or a 55g bullet going 3900+fps is the same thing regardless of what the chambering is, and both cartridges will achieve that easily. I'll stick with my AI.

Maintain

p.s. how do we post pics without photobucket? Fred, this is directed at you.....lol
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 20, 2018, 07:55 AM:
 


[ July 20, 2018, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 20, 2018, 07:57 AM:
 


[ July 20, 2018, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2018, 09:17 AM:
 
what a time for Dave to refuse to enlighten us mere mortals
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on July 20, 2018, 12:42 PM:
 
For me the 22-250 AI is the choice hands down. More case capacity. I like to use Lapua brass. Fireforming is a non issue as far as I’m concerned. I bought 200 rounds of Lapua 22-250 Remington brass when I first rebarreled. Loaded them about 1.5 grains over Standard 22-250 max and they were damn near as accurate as my current Ackley Improved load then I went Coyote Calling. Probably killed 150 Coyotes fireforming. Once I fireformed them I settled on a load for the new case and haven’t changed since then. It has been my favorite Caliber hands down.

Good Hunting Chad

[ July 20, 2018, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on July 20, 2018, 12:52 PM:
 
My 22-250 still kills em dead no reason to wander. Exotics a great distraction and hobby good way to use expendable cash , anything really new not likely.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2018, 03:17 PM:
 
Paul, as long as you are happy, don't pay any attention to all these speed freaks. I have used a 22-250 and before that, the 22 Varminter which is what it was called before 1969 when Remington brought out the factory chambering. It actually dates back to, (don't quote me!) 1930s. Of course, that Mauser, an original Oberndorf double set trigger was a screamer!

Anyway, not to drift off point, but the 22-250 runs a little less than a 220Swift. I don't know, depending on barrel length the difference could be 150/200 fps and the coyote won't know the difference, as one comment goes. But ballistically, the Swift has an advantage, no doubt.

Now consider the 22-250 Ackley Improved. This pretty well standardized "wildcat" performs beyond Swift so it's a significant improvement over the Factory Remington 22-250. Of course, all things being equal, and average stands, coyotes killed between 100/200 yards or so and sometime much less, the factory cartridge can easily handle this chore.

But, if you hunt the wide open prairies, and are offered a shot way out yonder, then the flatter shooting Ackley is a definite advantage for an animal that hangs up at 300/350 or so. Speaking of midpoint trajectory considerations, for nailing that second of the pair that is leaving the county. There is no denying the advantage of the Ackley chambering for such things.

For me, it's a no brainer. Fire forming just isn't that big a deal. Yes, it's a hand loading proposition. But, the plus is that the 40 degree shoulder is so easy on case life that I routinely get over 10 reloads from every case and that's something that our Swift shooting friends cannot say. Usually, at least.

But, any of those choices are far superior to the 223. About this time there will be a 223 user that will defend the cartridge but this is a Prirus versus Dodge Pick up argument. lol

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Ariel Perez (Member # 4678) on July 21, 2018, 10:59 AM:
 
I’m gonna stick with a 243 and order a barrel. Contemplating a 20 or 22 inch sporter barrel and I am gonna get a higher twist rate so it can shoot the lighter bullets, so we will see. My 22250 has killed plenty as well but it’s hard leaving the house without a 243 it’s treated me well over the years and I’m very comfortable with it and If it ain’t broke don’t fix it I guess.
Koko I remember the first time we met you had that little Thompson center 223, you were on the side of the road checking your zero because you had missed a coyote the stand before. We were playing hop scotch on the road to portal if I remember right, you also gave me a drag that you had made out of a car battery handle?? Still carry it will me during the winter and it helps a ton, wouldn’t mind having an extra😉
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 21, 2018, 12:47 PM:
 
Ariel,
I used to get those battery carriers back when I was working part-time at a recycle lot. Didn't need to modify them at all. I've even made a couple out of yucca stalks & para-cord.
You're correct, but it wasn't the Thompson's fault that I missed that coyote. Flat out blew a shot I should have made.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on July 21, 2018, 04:37 PM:
 
I have one KOKO gave me still use it ! best little crate in the business !
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on July 21, 2018, 04:39 PM:
 
I see videos of folks dragging off the guard hairs makes me cry !
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 21, 2018, 05:44 PM:
 
Oh yeah, the one he gave me works great!👍

Wait a minute! What am I talking about? No, he didn’t! WTF!

Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 21, 2018, 06:34 PM:
 
I'll see if I can find you one.
Or I'll make you one.
Lemme see what I can come up with.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 21, 2018, 06:48 PM:
 
What a generous, unsolicited offer!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 23, 2018, 08:00 AM:
 
Back to the wonder caliber. I mean, really, do we need another hot chambering? Strictly talking about hunting coyotes conventionally, either at night or daylight stands. Seems like there is available just about anything imaginable from 17 caliber to at least 6.5 or so? If you can't find a caliber that knocks your socks off from what's available without dreaming up a necked down Creedmore that does a much better job than what everybody else has. I mean, give me a fucking break! All the Okies have switched to the 22CM, and they know what it stands for? Dead coyotes! Can't be done with a 220Swift or a 243 anymore. They've all rebarreled to the 22CM and now they never miss. Horseshit!

I have always said, the same thing applies to hunters as to fishermen, the lures catch fishermen, not fish. It's always been this way, there is MAGIC in a word. Like "Magnum" or "Swift" or "Ackley". Now it's "22CM".

And, let me just add, this long distance crap is getting out of hand, up and down. I've read serious articles about 800 yard bull elk. Do the math. how far can an elk move while that VLD bullet is in flight, @800 yards? I don't want no part of it but when it gets to the point where we need a 22CM to anchor long range coyotes, something is seriously out of whack.

I have an application regarding coyotes at night from a rig. Texas hunters know what I'm talking about. But, even then, my personal restraint is generally less than 500 yards, more like 400 for a couple reasons. First, it's very difficult to gauge distance at night and second, the animal MUST be marked very well. Trust me, you do not want to be searching for an animal that has dropped out of sight, that far away. It can and I have spent hours searching, and come up empty. If it's a contest, you learn pretty quick about diminishing returns.

If you can't call a coyote inside 250 yards, or so, then that miraculous new 22CM will be of limited value. I mean ok, yeah, I have dumped a few way out yonder when I'm desperate, but you shouldn't be looking for trouble, or trying to prove what a dickhead marksman you are, armed with the latest cartridge that all the experts tell us is what's needed, or you ain't shit.

I don't have all the answers. But I know that varmint hunters are just as "trend" oriented as the rest of them. Gullible. Everybody has a dream, right? There is "Magic" in certain words. I guess, this week it's CREEDMORE?

Just kidding, don't take me serious, you fellas that jumped on board. Geordie? lol

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 23, 2018, 04:37 PM:
 

quote:

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Just kidding, don't take me serious, you fellas that jumped on board. Geordie? lol

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quote:

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I have been shooting 22 Creedmoor since 2014 and have pressed it into service as my primary coyote hunting cartridge. The tough northern coyotes we hunt have a reputation for taking some vicious hits and then just getting back up to run off. This is something that plagued me with the traditional 22-250 and caried over into the 22-243win I ran prior to switching to the 22 Creedmoor. Even when using the venerable mainstay 52gr SMK at 4100fps from the 22-243, it was not uncommon to have squarely hit coyotes get knocked down and then run off to die 150yds later. No doubt running a heavier bullet with both the aforementioned cartridges could have eased my troubles, but I was quite interested in the Creedmoor and wanted to try it out.

Several years later and the 22 Creedmoor has completely established itself among my 22 cal firearms. The 22-243win and 22-243AI I was shooting have found themselves virtually untouched, while the 22CM has dominated coyotes in a way no other 22 cal has before it. The accuracy nodes are wide and forgiving, the feeding is boringly reliable, and the performance out in the world has been dominating. My main 26" barrel is pushing 80gr Berger's at 3525fps and is relentless inside 800yds.

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I think he is saying something close to what I have said, (many times) about the inadequacy of the 223Remington as a coyote cartridge? But, he is claiming a 22-243 and similar are sitting unused because they just can't kill a tough northern coyote!

This is horseshit. I hate to mention the old canard, "if you do your part," however, it's pretty basic. Shot placement has a lot to do with putting them down for keeps, and it's a big hint when he starts throwing around numbers like "800 yards".

The only thing I learned, worthwhile, is that I have been misspelling 22 Creedmoor that past couple of days. The world is saved. A 22CM can actually kill a northern coyote because it can drive an 80 grain bullet from a 26" barrel @ 3500fps, or there abouts, since this isn't rocket science.

I know about magic. Suddenly, a cartridge with minor configuration changes can do miraculous things, because....you know? Everybody feels good about dumping an unwary coyote way out there, when given the opportunity. Way out there could be 400 or 800, what's the difference? A tiny bit of holdover and Bang/flop! Can't be done with a mutt like a 22-243 because you can't even drive 75 grain bullets fast enough, much less 80 grain.

People like to throw around numbers, and data to prove something, Everybody does it. I do it. But when we have used this miracle ever since 2014, it goes to show what a visionary this guy is, smart, good looking, intelligent, nice trimmed beard and sports a silencer on his coyote rig. This guy obviously takes no prisoners. I'd be an idiot not to take his advice and scrap the crap I have been using for the WORLD BEATER 22CM. Might even improve my love life, who knows? But, even if it doesn't, if it solves my 800 yard coyote shooting, it is obviously worth it!

I'll tell you how to do that, quit shooting at 800 yard coyotes, asshole! Maybe the pathetically underpowered 22-250 is still marginally effective within normal parameters that we find on a normal coyote stand? Ask Paul! Sic'em, Tiger!

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Ariel Perez (Member # 4678) on July 25, 2018, 08:59 AM:
 
Don’t shoot the messenger I’m just relaying some info I have found.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 25, 2018, 09:30 AM:
 
Does he list real capacity?

An 80 at 3500 in a 26" barrel is well beyond the .22-250AI. But I keep reading that the capacity is "nearly identical" to the .22-250AI.

Can't be?

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 25, 2018, 11:16 AM:
 
Ariel Perez, I'm sorry, I don't blame you at all for providing that link. It was sorta informative, but you are not responsible for providing it. I'm probably calling bullshit on the author, not you.

And, Dave. As with the rest of it, the numbers concerned with this Creedmoor are somewhat elusive. What it conjures up for me is a cartridge similar to Fred's Redline but Fred has some solid data and does not seem prone to exaggeration or vagueness.

But, as you can guess, even if the numbers about the 22CM are firm and accurate, I still have a problem with:
800 yards
3500fps
26" barrel
80 grain bullets,
you know, truth?

I mean, I can be bullshitted when I want to be, but even if all this stuff was true and accurate, and all the terrible problems with the unused 22-243's gathering dust, I just can't get excited about a problem most of us don't have, but is self inflicted. And, we don't need a miracle cartridge to kill northern coyotes, fer cripe sakes, even a 17 Predator can do it, when we do our part. Oh hell, he's probably a nice guy, and doesn't beat his wife; or his dog? Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

Good hunting. El Bee

PS Ariel, I apologize if I gave the impression that I blamed you for the whole concept. You are blameless and we all appreciate your contribution!
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 25, 2018, 11:40 AM:
 
I think Greg (the author) is a pretty good guy. Not that I actually know him, but my impressions are over all positive. He's opinionated and willing to wear that on his sleeve. I appreciate that.

Disclaimer - I haven't clicked Ariel's link or read that article. Leonard's quotes, solid hits, beefy chamberings in my book, coyotes getting up and running off, I decided just to skip the whole thing...

Because, as Leonard alluded to, I've killed more coyote than most, as large as anything west of the Mississippi, with a puny .17...

Though, in the interest of full disclosure, I don't shoot as well as I used to and I've come to realize that bullet placement stuff ain't no bullshit. Just always took it for granted, without even realizing I was, that duh, of course you are going to hit them where you want to. Where the fuck else would you hit them??? Now that I don't always hit them where I want to anymore, I've become far more humble in my defense and praise of the .17.

Simply put, I didn't realize how good a shot I used to be, but I sure as heck ain't anymore and it's changed my perspective.

But that .17 is still my main squeeze and run away favorite! I just pass up shots I used to would have taken without any hesitation.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on July 25, 2018, 01:59 PM:
 
Well in went to the link, that's the first bolt gun I have ever seen with the bolt in the stock. What will they come up with next.
I guess I'm to old school. I'll stick with my old 22-250 with 55hp and call them in closer.
Would love to have one of them cans on my rig. Might make my wife happy, she says l'm going deaf.
I think I got that selective hearing everyone is talking about.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 25, 2018, 02:45 PM:
 
-69g running just shy of 3600 in 22-250AI
-69g running 3500+ in 22CM
-current 22cm pushing 75eldm at 3520

This is info given to me by a very reputable gunsmith who has shot both calibers. Like I said in first post, I am going off of discussions I have had with individuals when I first heard of the cartridge, I don't own a 22CM. His quote to me when discussing this cartridge was it would perform equivalent to my AI, minus the fireforming. 100fps (give or take) variance between cartridges is a non issue in imo. I have seen greater differances in same rifle, same load, same weight bullet, just different manufacturer. Bearing surface!?!?.....who knows?

My purpose of entering this discussion was to relate experiences of actual users of the 22CM and their comparisons to my findings of my own 22-250AI. The conclusion and consensus I came away with was the 22CM is the double first cousin in performance to a 22-250AI. In other words, its not a magical cartridge like a 6 Dasher for gods sake!

Maintain

P.S. Fred, the gunsmith I mentioned is the guy who built your 223ai

P.S.S. DAA, I asked this individual about brass life on this 22cm running 75's, and his comment was....couldn't tell, he has buckets of hornady brass and hadn't really given it much thought. So who knows, maybe its only lasting two fireings, but then again it is junky old hornady brass.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 25, 2018, 02:57 PM:
 
Eddie, the rifle is a desert tech. They do look like a storm trooper weapon. I actually had a deal where I was building 10 rnd mags for DT by cannibalizing 2 mags and tig welding them back together to make a 10 rounder. The company caught on and made my services obsolete
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 25, 2018, 04:16 PM:
 
Geordie, you Tig weld? Maybe I have something you can use? Send me your mailing address.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on July 25, 2018, 05:06 PM:
 
Best I could get with a 75 gr. Berger from a 26 inch barrel was 3420. Talking 22-250 AI. Pretty sure Kelly gets over 3500 in the cm with the same bullet.

When you compare the trajectory of a 55 running 3980 to a 75 running 3400, they are basically the same out to about 400. After that, it is all 75 including foot pounds. Accuracy was fantastic, but I could not make myself like it. A shade less than 4000 was always in the back of my mind, so I sent it down the road.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 25, 2018, 05:55 PM:
 
not doubting anything, Randy. But, as far as I'm concerned, what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?

If we are talking about hunting coyotes, I think most people would agree that a 400 yard shot is a rare situation and as you said, a 55 grain bullet is capable of killing a coyote under normal conditions. What some exotic cartridge can do with a 75 grain bullet at a half a mile is a different situation and I don't even want to legitimize it as calling and hunting coyotes.

That being said, there are other cartridges that can do that job, 6mm, 6.5, 7mm, 30 caliber and who knows what else? So I don't care if a 22CM can launch an 80 grain bullet at 3,000, or allegedly at 3,500fps; oh yeah and @ 800 yards. Maybe it's possible, but big fucking deal! It has nothing to do with my particular coyote hunting, and I know a little bit about this stuff.

I don't know how many ways to say this but let's get down to earth. We already have dozens of very capable cartridges suitable for hunting coyotes very effectively. If there is a new kid on the block, that's swell. But let's not start talking like it has some miraculous ability we never had before. Get real.

I hate to be the wet blanket but we haven't been dying for a new cartridge that will kill a coyote better than what's already out there. I understand and appreciate performance. We are drowning in excellent coyote cartridges! Rejoice!

Now, what else can we argue about?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 25, 2018, 05:59 PM:
 
So......differences of approx 100fps? The point not mentioned in this very unscientific comparison is that there are too many variables. Barrels, powders etc. The closest one could come to a true comparison would be barrels cut from the same blank tested with same lot powder and same lot bullets. Example....I had a 6x47 that ran 105s 120fps faster at break in than the previous barrel cut with same reamer. Powder lots were the same. So what conclusions can be drawn from that data?

Anyway, the 22CM,IMO, is a chambering that has merit. Is it a miracle worker, doubtful. I might would even consider it if I didnt have dies, brass etc for 22-250AI......or I was retired and rich like KJ and had time for projects.

Maintain
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 25, 2018, 06:03 PM:
 

quote:

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Now, what else can we argue about?

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6SAUM!!!!! 22 Creedmore is sooooo yesterday. The 6 saum and soon 6 PRC are the new coyote rounds for the new age contest hunters.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on July 25, 2018, 06:12 PM:
 
No, I agree Geordie, not much difference and it definately is not apples to apples. I never shot a coyote with the one I had, but just had to see for myself. LOL

For what it is worth on case capacity.

22-243 ai.....51.9
22-243......50.8
22-250 ai.....48.4
22 bleedmore.....50.0
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 25, 2018, 06:49 PM:
 
Here's a link that I found interesting, Stick is as hard on calibers as any I know of and he's getting 3225 fps with the 88 gr ELD molly'd.
http://asrealasitgets.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/209620/gonew/1/A_Lovely_Fork_In_The_Road.html#UNREAD
My 22-250AI only has a 22" barrel on it and 33 something is as fast as I can drive the 75 Amax but I haven't played with anything but RL15, 17 and RL19.

I pop 400 yard steel easy enough and 600 yards is not a problem from a bench but 800 yard coyotes from field positions ain't happening for me.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 25, 2018, 07:00 PM:
 
I still don't know the exact case capacity of my 22-243Middlested but it's somewhere in that ballpark, more or less. Probably right in the middle between 22-243 and the 22-243Ackley? I don't even know what was the exact motivation behind that cartridge?

I think this Middlested is about a couple grains more capacity than either of my 22-250Ackleys. However, considering all those differences in barrel length and the fact that I select my propellant based on accuracy rather than velocity, one 22-250AI has a velocity advantage over the Middlested of 100fps. Go figure. Some barrels are fast and some are accurate and some are slow. Who knew?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on July 26, 2018, 03:58 AM:
 
If you guys would just let ( the one who shall not be name) back on he could line you guys out on the best coyote hunting rig.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 26, 2018, 04:03 AM:
 
IMHO, the entire premise of that 22Creed article is flawed, for one very simple, yet glaringly obvious reason. That being:

Author compares a (slow twist) .22-243Win, shooting a 52SMK, to his new 22Creed with a 1:8 that'll shoot a 75-80. In effect, he ignored how comparing two wildly different bullet weights & styles factored in, and instead attributed killing performance improvement to the change in cartridge?

For one, ya can't pick a shit-azz killin' bullet, then blame it on the cartridge when it kills like shit.

Second, the glaringly obvious question. Why didn't author just build a .22-243Win on a 1:8, and shoot the same 80gr bullets that makes the 22Creed such a 'devastating killer'?

Obviously, author already had brass & dies for .22-243Win. So, all he needed was for his smith to run a throating reamer in behind the one he used the first time, to better suit heavier bullets from a 1:8. My logical deduction skills say that woulda been the easiest path to an 80 @3500+...

I even recall a thread on the old hide where I pointed to that author that I'd been shooting a 1:7.7twist .22-243 on coyotes, and provided performance #s to show the heavier bullet was superior to what he was experimenting with his (slow twist) 52SMK launching .22-243. You know, the one he complained about in the article. Maybe he forgot that exchange?

Just sayin, this decision to change to an entirely new cartridge, which required (at the time) necking down all the way from 6.5mm, when he was already tooled up for .22-243Win just don't make no sense to me?

Furthermore, the notion that the .22-243Win somewhat 'finicky' to find a load for was certainly not my experience. Nor was it the experience of those I consulted with before building mine. So, there's that, too...

Lastly, cases have a 'hierarchy' of sorts. It relates directly to capacity, with the scientific logic behind it , as follows:

When run at equal pressure, to push the same bullet, the larger case will produce more speed. All the time, every time...

This is basically common knowledge,

Therefore, when one intentionally chooses a smaller case, they must, by default, run at a higher case pressure, and/or use a faster burning powder to generate the speed to match, or beat the larger case.

That fact runs 180 degrees counter to the notion of any perceived improvement in throat, or barrel life, when dropping down in case capacity to achieve a given speed from a certain bullet.

Simply stated, ya gotta rev smaller motor, harder/faster, to beat the bigger motor to push a given "x" mass a certain speed...

And if a mild shoulder angle of the .243Win parent case was truly the culprit of throat woes, then ya just AI it. BOOM, ya got sharper shoulder, and another grain or two,of capacity to enjoy....

Bonus of the AI being, that lil bit of extra capacity allows for running SLOWER burn rate powders,that have a more 'cool' burn rate, to generate speed. So, by going AI, both the sharper shoulder AND extra capacity work in concert to mitigate throat erosion, thereby improving overall barrel life...

But, what do I know?

P.s. I have capacities written down, but I'm outta pocket.

[ July 26, 2018, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 26, 2018, 04:56 AM:
 
Thanks for the feedback fellas.

Glad to see that capacity listing the CM as closer to the .243 than the '250AI.

Just couldn't wrap my head around the velocities being reported coming from "nearly identical" capacity to the .22-250AI.

But, then too, I love the .22-250AI, been shooting it a long time. Have worn out a pair of 29", 8 twist barrels (in about three months each...) and am most of the way through my second 12T, 27" barrel. Wore out multiple factory vanilla .22-250 barrels too.

I do have some experience with the '250 case. And I have to say, I have never been able to get the kind of velocity out of any of mine that I see reported on the internet. My 27" 12T's, for instance, neither one of them has been able to reach 4K with 55's. Well, backup a second, not without ruining brass in a few shots. But all those barrels I've worn out by starting with 200 pieces of new brass. That was easy with the 8 twists, neither of them lasted a thousand shots. The 12's are averaging about 2,500 rounds each though and 200 pieces of brass gets that done with life to spare.

So, maybe I could match internet velocity, if I was willing to throw away my carefully prepped brass? But I ain't...

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 26, 2018, 06:22 AM:
 
I can't get interested in these quests when it takes a left turn with long heavy bullets and fast twist barrels. It seems to involve something other than basic hunting coyotes, or tangentially? I'm ok with seeking more velocity and an improved ballistic coefficient, but how, exactly, does it relate to calling coyotes? If these experiments are more helpful in rockchucking, then I understand.

I think it would be helpful to state our motivation? There has to be a reason beyond sitting on the ground and calling a coyote because I don't see where this level of performance is necessary? If you want to pot a coyote that's mousing out in the field, that's another application unrelated to a normal coyote stand.

Most often, when I pick a spot to sit down and call a coyote, I won't have an 800 yard shot anywhere in front of me. That's another thing. I remember while hunting with Higgins, that he would talk about some coyote he saw that dropped down the side of a hill 600/800 yards away. Myself, I'm concentrating on the field of view a couple hundred yards out, if that? Yes, in Montana, I've seen the videos where they pick up a little flyspeck of movement and that coyote is still 15 minutes away at a dead run. That's nice and if I happen to spot the movement, all well and good, but it's really not my focus. To me, when you are gazing way out there at the horizon, that's when you miss an animal that has busted out of cover right in front of you. I guess everybody is different, but in dealing with heavy cover, the game is won and lost if you aren't ready for the unexpected, right in front of you, not to mention the cat that hasn't moved at all but who's head suddenly appears beside a bush and he might have been there for 30 seconds or three minutes. You aren't doing yourself any favors if you are scanning the side of a mountain a half a mile away. I hope I'm getting my point across,you will do both of those things on a 12 minute stand but where is your priority?

So, I don't usually have a 29" barrel on a coyote stand, more like 26". A 55 grain bullet is a reasonable choice when you can't see more than 200 yards and in 50% of your field of view, it's more like 100 yards. We are down in the weeds, not hunting from the mountaintop and picking off an unsuspecting coyote at somewhere around 800 yards. I know that I am setting the parameters of my argument for my benefit but again, do we really need a 75 grain bullet to take a poke at a coyote thats 800 yards away. I don't get it, why we are even talking about it? Straighten me out, somebody?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on July 26, 2018, 09:47 AM:
 
I plan to build a .22 Creedmoor. I already have the reamer and the go/ no go gauges. Its more for hunting in some open areas I have were shots past 600 are possiable. A fast twist barrel has been my preference for years. Reguardless of caliber and distances shot. I still feel a fast twist barrel kills better.
I moved to AZ. with only a .17 Remington with a 20" barrel and killed the snot out of coyotes with it. Anything under 300 hundred yards died with boring regularity. I played with 19, 20 and 22 calbiers along the way but could never see what they offered a fur hunter over a .17 Remington.
I started denning and decided to run a plain jane .243. It still kills coyotes with authority. With the right bullet i could and would use it for a fur rifle. Its by no means a flat shooter and i personally dont care for light bullets in that application. I have now moved up to a .260 Remington. I shot a coyote this year a 852. My longest coyote to date. We all have different terrain and objectives. Even fur hunting i dont care for a coyote that stands out there at 600 and barks and thinks hes safe. Ive got something for his money ass. With a heavy bullet i dont care about angles. It will break him down.
Now to be honest i no longer have a .17. Nothing wrong with it but a fella offered more money than i thought it was worth. So now in country that shooting shouldnt be much past 200 or so i use a plain ol .223. Last year i switched to 60 v maxes. Shot 63 with it. Lost 1. I also use a .223 competition hunting during daylight hours. It hasnt cost us a coyote yet. As a matter of fact i think it helps us. Being suppressed its quiet enough that we shoot enough doubles on stand were 1 comes in and we kill it and another minute of 2 another shows up and we kill it. I'm cutting a 22-250 to 18" the same length as my .223 and ill compare noise levels. If i think its close enough i may try it but it a 14 twist so only 55 grains for now. If its quiet enough ill build one with a 8 twist and run 65 sierra gamekings.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 26, 2018, 10:49 AM:
 
Well, there's the other side of the coin I was looking for?
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on July 26, 2018, 02:48 PM:
 
If you guys would just let ( the one who shall not be name) back on he could line you guys out on the best coyote hunting rig.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 26, 2018, 03:13 PM:
 
The 'un-named one' hunts with a shottie ??????


 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 26, 2018, 03:14 PM:
 
He’s been kinda quiet lately. Says he’d making big money selling dogs. I think he mentioned $3,000 for one? That’s seems like big money to me?

Good hunting. El Bee

Edit: no shottie as far as I know? He’s huge into 17 Predator I think

[ July 26, 2018, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on July 26, 2018, 05:55 PM:
 
Had Tim been involved in this discussion, it would have ended 2.75 pages ago.
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on July 27, 2018, 04:03 AM:
 
He ain't selling them redbones for that much is he? I've ran a many coondog in my day ain't never seen a redbone that was worth a dam.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 27, 2018, 04:45 AM:
 
Capacity depends on who's brass you measuring.

To compare, let's keep Lapua brass as the constant.

My fired .22-243Win brass avg: 53.4 grains H2o
My fired .22-243AI brass avg: 55.0grains H2o

Fired 6.5Creed brass avg: 51.2grains

Now, if ya neck that brass down, to make 22Creed, you're gonna lose volume. So, I think 50-50.5grains is a safe extrapolation?

Then, I'll defer to Randy's measurement of his .22-250AI @ 48.4gr.

Again, Lapua-Lapua comparison.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2018, 05:04 AM:
 
I beg your pardon! My Redbone was the best dog I ever had. Definitely an alpha, would never allow another dog to sniff her ass. Anyway, that's a bold blanket statement, maybe there could have been one or two that were worth a damn.

Fred, I can appreciate your statement, it's nice to compare Lapua to Lapua, rather than apples and oranges. However, if what we got ain't Lapua, but in fact is Winchester, can't we at least derive some useful knowledge? It might not help classify or rank who's the biggest dick in town but volume's volume, theoretically. The answer to that question is; "he who shall not be named", by the way. And, rest assured, he has weighed in with an opinion on the subject, and for $1.98, today only, I can provide that wisdom to those that require it. Tomorrow, it will cost you more, I'm just not sure how much more?

So, I guess I can fill a case with water and find out since nobody wants to take a guess? BRB

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: Eddie, apparently you are not as informed as the rest of us? Have you not seen, WHERE THE RED FERN GROWS?

[ July 27, 2018, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 27, 2018, 05:24 AM:
 
Leonard, one can pick & choose cases to skew results.
But by keeping same/same, ya sorta get a lay of the land regarding capacity. That being:

.22-250AI ~1.5gr less than 22Creed
.22-243Win ~2.5gr more than 22Creed

So, that's pretty much where it fits, sammiched between those two known cartridges.

Then, ya re-visit performance expectations. Sure, you can push a smaller case hard to near match a larger case, but your gonna pay a pressure penalty. And, as Dave mentioned, you're gonna pay for that in brass (and barrel) life...

Supposedly, running small primer pocket brass allows running higher pressure without unduly damaging them, so that's why you're seeing this new Creed brass come with SPPs. Basically, taking a page outta Lapuas playbook, as their 'x47L' cartridges all rock SPPs.

Still, there's no replacement for displacement. In my opinion, anyway...

[ July 27, 2018, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 27, 2018, 06:15 AM:
 

quote:

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Still, there's no replacement for displacement. In my opinion, anyway...

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That's a fact, Jack.

The SPP's are interesting. Was a prominent feature and semi fail way back in the day with the original CHeeta.

The CM seems like a pretty good way to go out of the box, from what I'm gathering here. Being all setup and familiar with the .22-250AI, I don't see myself ever interested in one, I'd go for the .243 case instead (which I am also already all setup for). But starting from scratch, I can sure see the appeal.

- DAA
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on July 27, 2018, 09:46 AM:
 
It really does sound like the 17-204,17 Predator,17 Tactical,17 Remington debate. Which one is best? They all kill Coyotes well. A grain or two of powder more or less isn’t going to change that. Might get alittle better trajectory from one than the other but they’re all 300 yard guns. Same thing with the 22-243,220 swift, 22 cm, 22-250 AI, just add a couple or three hundred yards past the 300 yard range of the 17’s.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on July 27, 2018, 01:43 PM:
 
Yep I seen it and I bet you cried at the end LB
Oh...don't get me started on redbones. Had to chase one for two miles (on foot) one night after it took off on a deer. When I got back to the truck I told the old man who's dog it was next time he hits a deer the coyotes can get him I'm done with him. Old man sent it up north and east somewhere, hell Tim might have some of its offspring.

Now to get back on topic...UTcaller said it best......just pick one they will all kill a coyote.

[ July 27, 2018, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Eddie ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2018, 02:11 PM:
 
Well. we have this happy family! I get a package from ko ko today and send off a package to Geordie this afternoon.

But, nobody volunteered to give me my case capacity soooo, I had to do it myself. Besides, whenever I say the "Middlested" word, nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about. Which is understandable because until I was looking at various rifles from this estate sale, I don't think I had heard of it either? But, it's similar to the rest, but this man, Middlested was trying to accomplish something. I don't know if it was successful or not but that was the rifle, take it or leave it. I'm one of those that likes to look at a cartridge, in my hand. Seems to give me a perspective. For instance, if you put several different cartridges in your pocket and try to guess which one you will pull out, it's really hard to judge by feel, you have to see them side by side.

First up, according to that link provided by Ariel Perez,
case capacity of the 22CM is 52.0gr.

22CM .......................... 52.0
22-243Ackley.................51.9 ......(according to AR Shaw)
22-243..........................50.8
22-243 Middlested......... 53.0 ......(according to me)

So, the 22-243, the 22-243Ackley and the 22-243Middlested, you would be hard pressed to guess which one you pulled out of your pocket by feel.

I do agree that the 22CM, if you aren't a hand loader might be an easy choice. But, then again, I am not sure if it's a modified cartridge or you can buy factory loaded ammunition?

Other than that, I don't understand the big rush for all our lovely Okie friends to tool up with that one, and stack their various obsolete 22-243's out at the curb for the trash man on Wednesday?

Good hunting. El Bee

[ July 27, 2018, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on July 27, 2018, 02:24 PM:
 
Leonard,

I had definitively heard of the Middlestead before I rebarreled my 22-250 AI. That was what I was going to rebarrel to. I wanted Lapua brass and was going to get it in .243. But then Lapua started making .22-250 brass so that seemed easier to me. That and the recommendations of you and others on this board. Never have regretted it for one second. The thing shoots tight groups with 60 grain Bergers at 3800fps.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2018, 03:07 PM:
 
Chad, seriously, I have been a cheer leader for 22-250Ackley for over 20 years. I shot a 220 Swift as my primary predator rifle, starting in 1975 and used it exclusively for over 12 years. It was a factory Ruger Model 77V, but accuracy became an issue and I rebarreled to 22-250Ackley because several of the club members were talking about it and the guy had the reamer so I went, what the hell. Smart choice on my part and I started getting interested in computers and the Internet about 27 years ago and didn't hold back on my praise. It just out performed the Swift like crazy. I always used the Speer 52 grain Gold Cup in the Swift but when switching to the Ackley Improved and 65 grain bullets, there really wasn't any comparison. It's just one of those charmed things. Better bullet higher velocity, a lot better ballistic coefficient, there was no negative.

Besides, the Swift case life ain't great even though I never pushed the pressure but I have always got twice as many reloads per case with the Ackley, more than 10, at least. I never stopped raving about it and I have noticed that we see more and more people moving to that short and fat and efficient case. What's not to like?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: by the way. Thank you to Richard, (ko ko) for the care package today. I will use it in good health. The hat I will probably have to just wear at gun shows because they tell me that patriotic attire is liable to get you beat up in California? But, thanks just the same.

edit: another thing about tooting my horn for the 22-250Ackley. I have always said, it deserves to be a factory cartridge. It's a great one!

[ July 27, 2018, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 27, 2018, 04:24 PM:
 
Leonard, if a fired Lapua 6.5Creed case hold 51.2gr, ain't no way necking it down is gonna increase the volume. So, I suspect another brand of brass was considered for that 52gr data point?

And that 55.0gr for my .22-243AI is an average weight of 5 fired Lapua cases from my rifle.

Did you run Lapua brass in your Middlested?

For the record, my .220REDLINE has a capacity of 71gr. So, even my bad azz .22-243AI is just 'ho hum' , anymore.
Schwacked 11chucks with it the other afternoon, like takin' candy from a baby...
For example:
508yd chuck headshot video

[ July 27, 2018, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2018, 05:12 PM:
 
No Fred, that's a fired Winchester case. My only point about that is the relative comparison between similar cases, under discussion. I didn't measure five and do the math. I was just curious about where my cartridge fell in the cosmic mix. As you seem to be a student of these subjects, do you have a guess or speculation as to why Mr Middlested decided that he wasn't satisfied until he went to the effort in designing his own version of necking the 243Win to 22 caliber? Considering custom dies and reamers and that screwing around, w/$$ he must have thought something about it was worthwhile.

Sooooo, what's the verdict? Is the Redline project a "chuck cartridge" development or do you really think it's a serious challenger to what we are all using right now for general coyote hunting, which I won't bother defining?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 27, 2018, 06:41 PM:
 
Leonard, shooters wildcat rounds for all sorts of reasons. Some just wanna try shit, others wanna improve shit, and others still wanna develop proprietary shit to market...
Can only guess that the Middlested is an answer to case stretch in the very mild shouldered .22-243Win, which retains the parent case shoulder angle of 20°...

The reason I went all the way to AI mine was to allow use of .243AI dies. So, if imma hafta fireform, I may as well go the whole 9 yard and blow it out to a full 40°...

That said, my .30-338Norma Improved has a 30° shoulder. But since there was no readily available 'AI' dies for that beast, the mild improvement offered enough to warrant a custom Whidden sized die.

And my REDLINE's parent (SAUM) case has a 30° shoulder. Again, I designed the Redline to use parent case (SAUM) dies, for the sake of simplicity.

Now, if I had some inkling of marketing it as the next, greatest, baddest .224cal on the planet, I coulda went with some goofy shoulder angle, and spec'ed a set of custom dies to accommodate. But, for that project, I was all about keeping things simple, and Im not interested in peddling it...

As for "general purpose" coyote rifle, I can't say as I've not even killed one with it, yet! But, the ballistics are impressive, to say the least. Still, for fun hunting in my AO, my lil 6x45AI is plenty for a 200yd 'northern' coyote. And my night rig is a .17Predator, which is a bang floppin' SOB on almost every 'northern' coyote that felt it...

So, no. The Redline is a top fuel dragster, meant to be wound up and let rip! It's no answer to a better mousetrap coyote rig, especially not for "general purpose" calling range where most coyotes are shot. Stil, I'll carry it and try it out on some stands. But, in truth it's got enough muzzle blast to make it a rude partner on stand. And without a brake, it has enough recoil to disrupt sight picture enough to notice...

Only thing I can see the Redline offering a coyote hunter is on those 'tweeter' coyotes that stand out there in the 3-400yd range. Those fuckers could be engaged with hardly a thought. But, how often does that really happen, anyway?

[ July 27, 2018, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 27, 2018, 10:24 PM:
 
El Bee;
Glad you like the coyote tote.
The hat ??? ……… I wear mine proudly everywhere I go, but then I still live in America while you're in Calif. Big difference.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2018, 10:29 PM:
 
Exactly!

That’s what I’ve been saying all along. In as much as the chatter began using buzzwords like 80 grain bullets and 800 yards. The way I feel about it, there’s no relationship between those numbers and ordinary stands for ordinary coyotes.

Good hunting. El Bee 🐝

Edit: yes ko ko. That’s a simple little handy gadget. The artwork is practically genius in authenticity. Easy to pack and not forget you have it, too.
Like you said, I live in the People’s Republik so displaying sentiment like that can get an old fart clocked in a Liberal Sucker Punch sort of way and I’d have to kill him or them. You know?
Thank you!

[ July 27, 2018, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on August 10, 2018, 11:13 AM:
 

quote:

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Geordie, you Tig weld? Maybe I have something you can use? Send me your mailing address.

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Lb, got the package. Thank You. I assume you built the box? Nice work. The attention to your tungstens says a lot. I like the tungsten holder, but was confused on the block with groove in it. I assume it was for touching up tungsten? Anyway, cool stuff, Thank You.

That said, it will be a little while before I can put them to use. I recently underwent a vitrectomy....(word for the day). I am on strict orders of no welding and no shooting.

Maintain
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 10, 2018, 04:09 PM:
 
Ah yes! You are asking about the diamond hone which has a piece of keystock welded to the bottom so that you can tighten it up in a vise. It will put a fine point on the tungsten. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 10, 2018, 04:17 PM:
 
Yes, I did recognize the word had something to do with the eye but still googled it. Wow, what's the prognosis for complete recovery? Otherwise, I would guess TIG is not in the cards, is it?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 11, 2018, 05:16 AM:
 
Googled it...

Sounds like NO fun. Sure hope you do have a complete recovery!

- DAA
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on August 11, 2018, 06:39 AM:
 
Yep,had to look it up...hope all is well.
Mark
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on August 11, 2018, 04:08 PM:
 
Hope everything comes out alright , wish you well and a quick recovery.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on August 11, 2018, 07:02 PM:
 
Diamond hone! Nice. Lb, I have to admit, you had those tungstens in awsome shape.

Every day is just a little better. My Dr was German, which I figured was good considering their quality optics.....lol. I actually can see very well out of that eye now with the exception that it is on a different focal plane than my left, which i hope will improve. They say it can take up to 12 months to get back to whatever state it will reach, but i feel like mine won't take that long. Doctors orders though, no welding or shooting for awhile.

I can honestly say the 36 hours leading up to the diagnosis and the week following the surgery had me in a funk fearing for what I may no longer be able to do. I realize and actually feel guilty for that, considering my situation was trivial compared to what many others have faced, including some members here.

So, I feel confident I will be shooting soon and hunting this fall, but it may have to be with a 'low recoil' .223 (the audience gasps!!!!)

Anyway Lb, thanks for the box, and thanks all for the well wishes......I'll keep you posted.

Maintain
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 11, 2018, 08:31 PM:
 
(I shouldn't even say this, but WTF?)

Geordie, Believe it or not, I'm actually an engineer by training.
But, in a later vocation as a TIG virtuoso, you never saw anyone better, and neither did anybody else. That box is a poor representation of my skill. I can weld damned near anything, copper, silver, various aluminums, titanium, Inconel, several stainless alloys including rainbow sailboat hardware & fittings, several thermoplastics and exotic gasses. There's stuff of mine out there that very good welders wouldn't know how I did it, much less duplicate it. I can TIG a vessel air tight, done many miles of sanitary 416 piping, valves, manifolds, etc. for dairy, beverage, juice and wine industries. I could go on, but then, I'd be bragging. lol

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 12, 2018, 04:40 AM:
 
Weren"t it Babe Ruth who said "It ain't bragging if you can do it !!" ???
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 12, 2018, 05:32 AM:
 
Yes, and you know how old farts remember stuff? It started as an out of control hobby. I discovered that I had an obscure & latent talent. Let's keep it confidential, K?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 16, 2018, 04:29 AM:
 
Fascinated by all types welding, and those who are proficient in the art. You guys got skills!

Hope you're healing up well. Geordie!

[ August 16, 2018, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 16, 2018, 05:28 AM:
 
Fishing heating up, Fred?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 16, 2018, 06:14 AM:
 
Wen the weather let's us, it's been good!
HOT water, offshore, more billfish than tuna, it seems! But there's enough yellowfin to keep the sashimi level pinned...

Nice 400# blue, released last week on buddy's boat:


And plenty of whiteys slashing the spread, too...
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on August 16, 2018, 07:48 AM:
 
PEW PEW PEW
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 16, 2018, 09:45 AM:
 
Good photo!

I'm not fond of Ahi, even cooked. Very picky fish eater.

Which reminds me. I just finished "Islands In The Stream" by Hemingway, the third Cuba themed novel I have read recently. But anyway, there is an account of fighting a thousand pound broadbill Sword up to the boat before he broke off.

As even a 200 pound swordfish is supposed to be a hand full, a better fighter than even a Mako, it's hard to imagine #1000. So, anyway, have you seen any, I haven't although they are easily my favorite seafood dish.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 20, 2018, 03:06 AM:
 
Yes, swordfish are CRAZY when hooked!
We sometimes target & catch them during our overnight trips to the canyons. Usually by rigging a large squid bait & putting it down deep with some type of light attractant. But, when the tuna start biting on our 'chunk' baits, chaos ensues and we pretty much try to load up while the gettin's good..

On a recent overnight trip, had a 'sword' bait go off @3am. Thought we had a MEGA swordy, but after 30minutes of battle, the fight kinda turned strange, and unlike the wacky unpredictability of a sword fight. After an another hour of serious drag pressure, a massive gray shape become visible under the lights....it was a friggin HUGE manta ray!

We were hoping it was just a slob swordy acting lazy, but that big ol' ray had to be over well 1,000lbs. Looked like a dang pool table when we finally got it planed close enough to confirm. No wonder that, after a few sizzling runs, it settled into feeling like I was hooked into a freight train. Soon as we confirmed it was not a swordy, we cut that sucker off...

But yeah, swordfish are prized table fare! Marlin is supposed to be really good, too. But we release all of 'em when fun fishing...

[ August 20, 2018, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 20, 2018, 09:33 AM:
 
To me, Mexican marlin tacos are inedible. The only fish down there I really like are dorado and wahoo.

Swordfish is my #1 pick for tablefare, then halibut. You cannot find swordfish anymore and the prices of halibut are unrealistic.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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