This is topic I want to talk about how much stand time in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on April 04, 2018, 07:30 AM:
I've usually stay on the stand 15-20 minutes. I'm thinking about mixing it up depending upon time of day and other conditions. One idea I have floating around in my head is short 5 minutes stands in the middle of the day when they are not as active/bedded down. I also believe if using short call times call softly and get more stands in a smaller area. If you can set up near a coyotes bedding area they come in quickly. WE had two come upon us in less than a minute recently. 15-20 stands in the early hours say till 10:30 am and in the late afternoon. I always stay on a stand longer, up to an hour, if I know there is a coyote in the area. In cat and fox country I'll stay on longer hoping for a cat. Any thoughts on this?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2018, 08:37 AM:
Well, you nibbled on a bunch of variables right there!
And, in my opinion, it varies.
For instance, just off the top of my head, I'm the exact opposite for middle, heat of the day stands. That's when longer stands pay off if you can keep up your level of alertness?
You know, on contest hunts at night, (and I know that leaves out a lot of folks) but in Nevada, almost all the stands would be no more than SEVEN MINUTES. After 7 minutes, you can see eyes from at least a half a mile away and already know if anything is coming in or not. That's just an example and the reasoning behind it.
Also, all day time hunting should consider the bedroom, and hunt those areas which might be miles from water or the hunting grounds they use at night. Think hills, for the most part. or out in the featureless flats, coyotes like to crawl in road culverts for a cool nap.
You mention 15-20 minute stands in the early hours. I'm a little different, twelve minute stands works for me when they are the most active. If they aren't there, why waste 20 minutes because that chews up a lot of productive time and face it, it's a numbers game. The more stands you make the more animals you will see, the more shots taken and the more coyotes laying in the bed of the truck.
Also, heavy cover will dictate the amount of time on stand and the call volume and it gets complicated, ya know? The confidence level comes into play, as well.
I hunted with a guy, one time, and he was driving so, I just went along with everything he wanted to do. But the thing that still has me scratching my head is that we would walk out, and walk and finally he would stop, look around and turn around, nothing having been said, and go back to the truck! WTF? I mean, sit down and give it a try, you already wasted 20 minutes sneaking into pretty good looking stuff, why not sit down, because it's less than perfect? Hell, he already walked past 5 or 6 spots that I would have taken a chance on. Anyway, I would have had a talk with this guy if we stayed out much longer.
That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure others would have a different idea about all of it. Let's find out, shall we?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 04, 2018, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 04, 2018, 08:53 AM:
My stand stamina was low this year. I did mostly 8 to 12 minute stands. Not many went past that.
- DAA
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on April 04, 2018, 10:24 AM:
I know what you mean by variables. There are just too many issues to look at. We went out yesterday and it was in the 90s on our last stand around noon. We quit early. My theory is the coyotes are bedded down and probably less willing to walk a quarter of a mile or more. Having two recently rush in quickly in the middle of the day is making me think less travel time between stands with shorter stands executing more stands during the mid day. With that said, we are probably done in the lower deserts. It is just getting too hot. I'll try this next year.
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 04, 2018, 10:30 AM:
My usual here in snow country is 15-20 minutes.Last month or so though have suffered from a caller behind every bush since October,4 times the usual number of trappers and the State now utilizing a privately contracted helicopter now and then so have changed my routine up with pretty good success.
Set:one howl n sit 10 minutes,second howl n sit 10 more,45 seconds of a coyote fight sound or lab/coyote fight sound followed by pup screams or distress run solid for 3-4.Occasional action after either howl but most right after pup distress.
Interesting set this AM-one I've done successfully a few times before in the Spring.Been gone a lot this winter(trying Ks,Wyoming and NoDak)so have put cell game cams around the house to detect human predators.Had a mini blizzard yesterday so planned on sleeping in.Phone beeps at 4AM and it's a camera behind house showing a coyote between house and machine shed.(wife feeds birds,rabbits eat bird feed,coyote seeks rabbits etc)Not the first time for this and can never sneak out and get them it seems so wait til sunrise,grab my call and go behind shed to a little lake with heavy brush,trees etc down one side.Dead calm and 4 degrees(In April for gods sake!F Al Gore and global warming!)
One howl,wait 12 minutes or so,then about 15 seconds of rodent distress and shut up.3-4 minutes later Mr coyote(big male)steps out of trees onto ice and starts my way.At about 150 yds ended his rabbit chasing.Very pleasing and think i will just end the year on that.
Good hunting to all and hang onto your guns!
Posted by JP (Member # 4095) on April 04, 2018, 11:14 AM:
Leonard said: "
I hunted with a guy, one time, and he was driving so, I just went along with everything he wanted to do. But the thing that still has me scratching my head is that we would walk out, and walk and finally he would stop, look around and turn around, nothing having been said, and go back to the truck! WTF? I mean, sit down and give it a try, you already wasted 20 minutes sneaking into pretty good looking stuff, why not sit down, because it's less than perfect? Hell, he already walked past 5 or 6 spots that I would have taken a chance on. Anyway, I would have had a talk with this guy if we stayed out much longer."
I recently, two or three weeks ago, hunted with a guy exactly like that. Since I can't drive or walk any great distance I felt I had no say in the matter. On the last stand of the day I told him "I ain't walking more than twenty-five yards from the truck". I didn't, he did, I made a double on coyotes, he walked in over two-hundred yards got nothing.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 04, 2018, 01:42 PM:
I've got a bit of a different approach to stand times than most, I guess. My area is a grid of sections and the time it takes a coyote to come from less than a mile away when inspired can be short. Unlikely that I'll bring one across a traveled and maintained road, especially in the mid- to late season. So, rather than sit any specific amount of time, I focus more on how I spend the time I'm there.
In a spot with good loafing cover where experience has taught me where the coyotes hide, I set up, call for maybe 5-7 minutes and if nothing's happening, just sit for another 5-7 and sneak back out. My mentor - Joe Wiggins - had a hard and firm rule that 80% of coyotes inclined to respond to a call will do so in the first ten minutes, and of those, 80% will appear in the first two. Using public school math, 64% of all the coyotes available on any given stand will appear in the first two minutes. From 2:01 to 10:00, it's that numbers game LB mentioned and, after 10:00, I'm usually better sneaking out as carefully as I went in.
That's an important point to expound upon. Most guys are super stealthy going in to a stand setup, but when the fun's done, they throw caution to the wind and walk out feeling all chatty. Stop that. You never know who or what is taking notes. Beckoff studied coyotes right here in KS and his results showed that 65% of coyotes remain somewhat attached to their family group year round. From that single figure, I now operate and conduct myself on the premise that if I see a coyote, there's at least a 65% chance that there's at least one more out there that I don't see. Rarely do I sit a stand where no coyotes are within ear shot. If nothing responds, I figure, at best, there's a 50:50 chance that one was around and chose to ignore me.
My point? Sneak out as quietly as you snuck in, even if you shot and killed something. WE run stands by sitting and calling. If and when we shoot and kill, we wait for 3-5 minutes before quietly grabbing the caller and the critter and sneaking out, knowing that the 3-5 minutes seems to put time between the screams and shots and our appearance in a way that those other unseen coyotes make the connection. Does this matter?
In the past few season, hunting days off and Sundays, Kevin and I have killed 72 ('13), 94 ('14), 105 ('15), 53 ('16), 101 ('17) and 65 9'18) coyotes, a total of almost 500 (490) coyotes using this "quiet in- quiet out" method while hunting the same 10 spots over and over and over again. One spot we call "The morgue" has accounted for nearly 100 coyotes during that period all by itself.
The other reason I don't sit stands very long is that my back doesn't handle it anymore. I use a 4-inch thick gel pad to sit on and even then, after about 15 minutes, both my legs are numb or going numb. I learned the hard way that the numbness is my body telling me there's strain on the nerves in my lower back. Only took one round of shots to try and get that sciatica under control to make sure I never ignore that warning sign ever again. Factor in using hand calls, and having your diaphragm hammering the muscles in your back while you sit down hunched forward, and that shit hurts a lot.
A second part of this question goes back to an article I did about calling cats. My source has changed to only 20 minutes stand when using ecallers running continuously because he feels the traditional handcall cadence only causes the cats to start and stop with the noise. I recall that idea was met here with skepticism way back then, but what say you guys now? I've killed cats within seconds of turning the caller on and most of the ones we take are down and dead within ten minutes when running the caller full time.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2018, 04:27 PM:
I hope you didn't mean me, Lance? I can tell you this without conceit, brag or modesty, that I have killed my fair share of cats, and I have a fair to middlin' grasp of their nature. But, I wouldn't tell anyone that they didn't know what they were doing.... unless they asked for advice. Then, I have been known to share an opinion or two.
One thing I do not agree with is those that claim that you have to wait an hour on each cat stand. Fuck that. I've seen them come running down the mountain as fast as any motivated coyote. Anyway, if a man has a plan, more power to him. But, I'm not much influenced by other opinion. I know what I know.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS oh hell, one comment! One stand,100 animals? Totally, totally different since I almost never make two stands in the same place unless it is accidental.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on April 04, 2018, 06:31 PM:
The story Leonard told about the guy wanting immaculate stands...that is something that always gets me. I believe in calling what you have. I refuse to drive 10 miles around to the other side of the ground I'm calling to get the perfect setup. I ain't hiking a mile up and around an area to get the wind or sun or whatever just right. I'm simply not going to waste the time. I will play the odds and put in more stands to make up for what animals may have busted me. Sometimes quality is better than quantity, but in this case it ain't for me. I like moving. I call what's in front of me. Probably to simplistic for most people but I do well enough.
Mark
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on April 06, 2018, 08:01 AM:
Many years ago I was listening to some guys at a club meeting saying that short stands produced better. So I decided to shorten my stands to 10 minutes. My hunting partner and I went calling in the California desert and made our first stand. !0 minutes went by and we walked back to my truck. We no sooner sat down and 2 coyotes went running across the road in front of us heading right to the spot we'd just left. I abandoned that tactic and went back to 15 to 20 minute stands.
I will admit that the great majority of coyotes come in within 2 to 7 minutes but a little more time spent out there has yielded more coyotes.
Cdog's suggestion of just sitting and watching for a while after you stop calling has worked for me in the past.
Where I hunted in eastern Oregon there are small patches of BLM land surrounded by private property. These spots are well worth the effort since eastern Oregon is heavily called. The drawback is that there's usually a long drive between the spots. I make the most of them when I'm calling. I spent 60 bucks to get the maps that show where this land is and it has paid off handsomely.
I seldom got chatty on my way back to the truck because I was usually alone.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 06, 2018, 09:00 AM:
Excellent points...
If ya got bazillion acres to burn through, it's easy to start contemplating the next stand after 6-8 minutes, and be headed to the truck after 10-12...
Not so with limited land/ small parcels. The sound logic behind the 'scorched Earth / numbers' approach to calling vast acreage kinda falls apart when ya don't have the luxury of that amount of ground...
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on April 06, 2018, 11:56 AM:
Exactly...Id hate to be severely limited on ground like you guys are back there. Im not sure Id be much into calling without big ground to roam.
Mark
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on April 06, 2018, 12:11 PM:
In the desert 8 to 12 minutes move on regardless of the time of day in the mountains of the north country 16 to 24 minutes and move on ! As Leonard said its a numbers game. When trapping more traps its a numbers game !
Same for calling more stands more opportunity !
[ April 06, 2018, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 06, 2018, 01:36 PM:
A numbers game, and what really brings it into focus is contest hunting. you just can't afford to do anything that isn't productive. That's why you Preallyhave to play the odds on those Hail Mary's way out yonder, then you waste an hour searching and come up empty. The pity is, you wind up leaving an animal laying there because he wasn't well marked. A big fat zero like that effectively puts you out of the "money", even if it's just a belt buckle. You have to do things that work and you can't afford to miss either. Yes, hunting contests really sharpens your game. You stop doing things that don't work or are unproductive. When you have to justify every stand, and you start to think, yeah sure, there "might" be a coyote that will show up after 20 minutes, but like somebody else said, when do most show up? Make you policies accordingly. 3X20 =1 hour. 5X12=1 hour. 3 stands X 10 hours=30 stands. 5 stands X 10 hours=50 stands. You can play with the numbers all you want, but do the math. 50 stands should give you 80% more coyotes romping into gun range. Theoretically, at least.
Now, the other side of the coin. How many of those 20 minute stands will you have an animal showing up past 12 minutes? Out of 30 stands, realistically, (what?) 3? If you are out there to kill coyotes, also as somebody said, skimming the cream off the top, those three potential animals might even catch you with your pants down, alertness wise. Do whatever blows your skirt up but I'll tell you right now, the guys with more coyotes in the bed of the truck made more stands than you did.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Except in the middle of the day when nothing is moving. Lots of ways to screw the pooch.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on April 06, 2018, 02:35 PM:
Around the first of fur season 15 to 20 min.
Late in the season after they have heard every dying rabbit sound you can think of I started mixing it up with coyote howls, some coon fight and pup dist. When I do this I will give it a little longer 30 to 40 min.
Cats I start out around 30 min. in heavy cover might give it a little longer than that. Now there have been at least 1 cat in each of the past 5 years that I have called that it took 45 to a hour to call in. In each of these cases I new there was a cat working the area, having seen it during deer season or the land owner had seen it. The country that I hunt is broke up in one mile sections with maybe four different land owens for every 160 acres. You might just be able to hunt only 160 acres so you have to make the most of what you got that's why I stay longer on stand.
Coons if I don't see one with in 6 min. they ain't coming so I move on to another den tree.
[ April 07, 2018, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: Eddie ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 06, 2018, 03:04 PM:
15 minute stands year around.....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 06, 2018, 04:36 PM:
Day stands, night stands, middle of the day stands?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 06, 2018, 05:08 PM:
Yep, all of the above. Coyote stands..... Cat country I’ll stay half hour max....
[ April 06, 2018, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 06, 2018, 06:47 PM:
Admittedly; Ive never sat for an hour stand, but Ive tried everything from 10 minutes to 40 minute stands over the years. Ive settled on 30 minute stands for the last several years, for my style and country I hunt, it plays out fine for me.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 07, 2018, 04:24 AM:
It's not even a numbers thing for me. I just start losing interest and paying attention pretty fast after five or six minutes. I think it was Mark called it stand stamina. Good description.
Staying twelve minutes, or fifteen, is just doing it because "I'm supposed to". There are occasional exceptions of course. But for the most part, I'm ready to get up and go at eight minutes. But will often force myself to sit there another four minutes. But also often, won't! I'm frequently half way back to the truck at the ten minute mark.
I don't really care about numbers either though. I'm just doing what I feel like doing, because I feel like doing it. Once I get one or two in the truck, the rest of the day is gravy and I might do more driving and looking around than calling the rest of the day anyway.
Middle of the day is the second most productive time, for me. Next to first light. Would rather hunt eleven to two, than later afternoon or the last few stands of the evening.
- DAA
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 07, 2018, 06:59 AM:
I guess for me I go with the 15 minute rule through about the first half of my calling season even though it's true that I kill the highest percentage of those with-in the first 10 minutes. By the 2nd half of the season I start hunting basically all the same ground for the 2nd time and I switch to using more vocals and I generally add 5 minutes to my stands, although if I get vocal response at the beginning of the stand I will add even more time.
Heck, there are times, especially late season, where I might sit for 45 minutes just because the sun feels good and I'm comfortable. A little shut eye comes easy when out in the wild. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 08, 2018, 07:32 AM:
There are definitely variables that will change the length of time I stay on a stand( meaning staying longer than 15 minutes). Such as hearing a Coyote or Coyotes Vocalizing or seeing a Coyote approaching the stand. But as a general practice if I haven’t had any takers in 15 minutes I move on. I just really believe in the general idea of the more stands you make the more Coyotes you’ll kill. I know there are exceptions but in general it’s worked for me over the last 30 years.....
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 08, 2018, 07:27 PM:
Generally, I stay 12 minutes for coyotes.
Most respond between 4 to 6 minutes. Occasionally, for reasons known only to the yippers (who aren't talking) I'll get into an area where I start noticing late arrivals and will give the stands extra time as needed.
However............ I do this strictly for personal enjoyment. I've got nothing to prove, no contest to win and no rancher to answer to. If a stand 'feels good' or if it's a proven stand that I've hunted before enough times to give a name to it I may stay 'til my ass goes numb on the stool.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2018, 06:17 AM:
ko ko, I tend to agree with you about the personal enjoyment aspect and nothing to prove, etc. But for me, this numbers thing is about the ability to shift gears. When I'm just dicking around, I could sit on stand for 5 minutes or 50 minutes. But, I still know what works and what doesn't work from the extensive background in hunt contests. Yes, there is a certain amount of satisfaction in winning, but it 's not a recreational mode, there is nothing at stake.
All I am saying is that being involved in the contests, you pretty much learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff. At that point, it doesn't matter if your coyote comes in at 8 minutes, or if he shows up after 20 minutes. At least he shows up and you score an animal. The extra time is meaningless to success.
Also, the definition of success is a lot different, depending on why you are making the stand. A single animal gained while sitting on three stands and comprising the entire morning is a success. If it was a contest and you killed 5 animals on 8 stands in the same length of time, that might also be considered success.
There are a lot of people that have zero interest in competition, whether it's a casual game of tennis or a little money golfing with friends. I used to play pool for money, (5 ball, 9 ball) which is a lot faster game than straight pool or 8 ball....or snooker!
But people even make a competitive game out of bass fishing. Some people apparently have more to prove than others or they just enjoy the competition and this why they invented the Olympics for Curling and even Beach Volleyball. It has nothing to do with looking at the Brazilian girl's butt.
Agreed?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 09, 2018, 02:45 PM:
Nope, don't agree. Put it this way, IF curling had "butts" hanging out like beach volleyball does, there would be an audience because fact of the matter, sex still sells, although I know it's not acceptable to say so these days.
SO, take away the butts and beach volleyball would have the same audience that curling does. Do they even have an audience, other than the curlers themselves
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 09, 2018, 07:09 PM:
Competition is an interesting subject.
Fishing tournaments............goes against every reason that I fish.
Guy stands in the front of a boat that cost more than my first house looking like he's in a hurry to get somewhere.
Casts the water into a froth & rips the lips off of a one pound bass when it strikes.
Slams it into the live-well with one hand and is casting again with the other.
No interest. Zip. Zero. Nadda.
Archery tournaments, however, I enjoy competing in.
I entered one last Sunday that I had no chance of winning. (It was a three shoot aggregate event & I missed the first shoot.) Still had a good time with some good people. Set some goals for myself and met them rather nicely. Good preparation for the shoot in May in Calif. and good practice for hunting season.
Guess it all depends on one's priorities.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on April 10, 2018, 03:48 AM:
Good luck in May KoKo!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 10, 2018, 06:50 AM:
Thanx, Paul.
It's a really good event that I look forward to every year. Rather than just have you stand in front of yet another target for two days, they put a lot of thought (and work) into setting it up.
Skipping an arrow off of a piece of plywood into a turkey target not challenging enough for you ?? They have another that you bank off of TWO pieces of plywood into the target.
Nine deer targets, shoot as many as you can between the stopwatch beeps ?? Yeah, that one's a hoot to watch people shoot. Couple of moving targets and a giant pigeon thrower, too.
Shots like that scattered all thru the course.
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on April 10, 2018, 04:30 PM:
To me fishing is out of bounds for competition. I fished purely for enjoyment. I've taken guys fishing that gloat over catching the biggest or most fish for a day and it always annoyed me.
Same with hunting pheasants or any birds or game like deer, etc.
I guess coyotes are a different matter because I did compete heavily back in the good old days and I won a lot of trophies that are buried in the Juneau dump because my former wife took them there during the divorce. Pins were important, too. It actually was contest hunting that ruined calling for me and got me to stop for a long period of time. I was calling for all the wrong reasons. When a coyote got away I saw a trophy walking off and I was killing them just for a piece of hardware that was going to collect dust and be forgotten.
I'm not trashing people that like competition but I enjoy the hunting for what it is. Many times I've had great days and never shared it with anyone.
When you live in SE Alaska you find that everyone catches fish so no one really talks about it or brags.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 15, 2018, 05:44 PM:
LB, yep, 1 location, 100 coyotes in 5 or six seasons total. The District Biologist hunts down there for deer and he even told us to go down there because of the "alarming number of coyotes" in that area. The first time we hunted it, I had ten different coyotes that I knew about moving in and around the dead sunflowers in front of us. early in the year, we will usually see as many as 5-8 there each time we start calling. Some we've killed "not coming" to us, as once they wise up, they tend to take the same escape routes out of there as soon as they hear a call. We actually started setting up with gunners on those escape routes so I could go to my usual hide, start calling, and wait for the gun shots to sound.
Had a guy that archery hunted across the road and the owner told us he was tired of us running all those goddamned coyotes through his hunting area by calling in the section next door. He got the bright idea of parking his truck to block the two-track in for us, so we wouldn't be able to get to where we set up as easily.
There's a huge wetland area a mile further west that is a decent producer so one afternoon when that asshat was parked in our drive, we went to the swamp. Nothing came in to distress, even though I know that they were there. They usually bedded down in a low timber about a half-mile northwest of us. I launched the caller into a beautiful group yip howl and almost immediately, 4 or 5 coyotes answered back from that low timber. Moments later, two more packs answered from behind us, one of which was right there by that asshat's treestand.
Our pack never showed, so we walked out. I asked Kevin what he learned when they answered back, and he told me that he now knows where they claim as defended territory. I said, "Yep". and started laughing. He asked me why I was laughing and I pointed east.
Told him I'd bet him a beer that we circle the section and that bow hunter is gone. Told him that I'd bet that every damned deer in that section beat feet the hell outta Dodge when that pack lit up, and most bow hunters hereabouts have no idea what that yip howl means and it generally scares the shit out of them too. The best part of it was that I triggered that with an mp3 of real coyotes, so he had no idea that we blew his hunt up. All he heard was four separate packs of coyotes sound off. Didn't see him back there again, and it was leased for deer hunting this season. We slapped the shit out of coyotes there early on this season, taking a dozen or more, then only got a few. The guy that leased it tried to guide some boys from Iowa in there in late Jan for coyotes and called us asking where they all went. "We killed 'em." They didn't call anything. Early bird....
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