The New Huntmastersbbs!: The Lull...

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 05, 2018, 01:41 PM:

Thought this might make for interesting conversation, so here goes...
Have any of you guys experienced a 'lull' in calling action when you'd otherwise think it'd be hot & heavy?
Has anyone noticed a particular time of year when calling becomes more challenging? If so, what have you attributed it to?
Breeding seasons, YOY dispersal, migration patterns of prey base, weather conditions, terrain/accessibility (snow depth, etc.), territorial factors, human interactions/ hunting pressure...just thinking of things that may be responsible for a 'lull'?
Let's assume proper stand selection and application of sound calling techniques are a given, so as to remove them as a potential variable...

I know only coyotes really know for sure (and they ain't talking) just wondering what thoughts/opinions are about experiencing a 'lull' in calling action. Surely the collective knowledge base here has might have something to share?

For conversation...

Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on February 05, 2018, 04:04 PM:

I wouldnt expect anything "hot and heavy" going out in any of these conditions anyway, but for coyotes, Im still the guy that hates full moons. Always have. Lots of people kill the shit out of em then, but I still struggle with sometimes. All in my head probly? I have went back and forth over the years, but the conclusion is...I hate em.

Otherwise, muddy conditions...hate it.

Summer calling...with the drought....hate it.
Mark

[ February 05, 2018, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 05, 2018, 05:19 PM:

My lull was pretty much the entire last fur season.
Between the drought, more callers than coyotes in my favorite spots and just not being motivated, I spent more time working on my archery than I did calling.
On the other hand, I'm REALLY looking forward to the Conejo Traditional Shoot this May.
And some bowfishing.
And in Aug. calling for bear.
Deer, if one stumbles into one of my arrows.
And by next fall............COYOTES !!!

Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on February 05, 2018, 05:36 PM:

My lull always seems to hit with the mid-January thaw. The coyotes in these parts seem to get hit hard with the brand new Christmas ecallers, rifles and people being off work or out of school which makes mid January kinda tough anyway.

By mid-Jan, we usually get a thaw and the snow starts to leave, it gets muddy on the south slopes, and the sunshine starts to get a little heat to it again. Coyotes just seem to lose their get-up-and-go when it warms a bit. When the breeding season starts around lat-Jan early Feb, things can get better.

Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 05, 2018, 06:25 PM:

Just clicked the thread. Was feeding my critters @ sunset sure enough coyotes light up about 1/2 a mile to my NW where there is 1/2 dozen trees & a irrigation canal, heard 'em before there. Hadn't heard 'em around for about a month ?

I don't expect much in farm country though. Oddly when outside & they start in my Aussie Shepard mix is unfazed ? so is my livestock ?

One night really foggy she starts growling from the mudroom. Like a dumbass I go out there with the thuddy thuddy, & a flashlight to check the goats & calves couldn't see a damn thing..Lol

[ February 05, 2018, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]

Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 05, 2018, 08:08 PM:

Leonard would have better records as far as full moon vs. no moon on contest day. On my meager sampling there were a lot more coyotes killed on a no moon, than full. (day time calling) That is only comparing two contests held the same time of year. Too many other variables to hang my hat on it though.

The rifle deer hunt, Thanksgiving, and Christmas through New Years create lulls, or at least they used to.

I have seen a lull turn to smoking hot for a few hours, then back in the same day and general area. I don't know why but it happens.

Posted by NVWalt (Member # 375) on February 06, 2018, 01:17 AM:

The lulls I have experienced have been when the government boys trapped,snared and had the plane or chopper in the air gunning the valley I wanted to call in.

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 06, 2018, 03:07 AM:

Elk hunters lock em down pretty good here. And denning season is always tough for me !

[ February 06, 2018, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 06, 2018, 09:42 AM:

Fred, for me and my area of operations, the annual lull is right now. Actually, it typically starts right after Christmas and goes all through Jan. and continues into Feb. Not sure when it normally ends as I typically am done calling for the year by now anyway.

I think it's a combination of factors at work.

My opinion, the two biggest factors are that the coyote population is near it's annual low and there isn't a coyote still alive that hasn't been called already (in my area anyway).

So, you have fewer coyotes than any other time of the year. You have a higher percentage of them recently experiencing hunting pressure and exposed to calling than any other time of the year.

Also...

Way more callers out after Christmas. Around here, anyway. It's predictable as a morning piss. Pervasive myth around here, that calling doesn't get good until it gets good and cold. I don't know how that got started, but I have been hearing it my whole life. Have never seen even the slightest shred of truth to it. Fact is, just the opposite, but most callers around here are not well versed in the facts. Most callers are busy with big game hunts earlier too, so are just getting their attention turned to calling around Christmas. All the new callers and rifles and stuff guys get for Christmas, it's real. The weekend after Christmas in the valleys just west of Salt Lake are comical with idiots calling. And, last but not least, the contests get going full strength once big game seasons are done too.

Add it all up, you got a lot more guys hunting a lot fewer but more educated coyotes. So, calling sucks.

Add to that... Mating and breeding season taking a lot of attention, energy and time for some of the coyotes. It does nothing to help the calling. Yeah, I know, use vocals. Have never seen it work anywhere even close to as good this time of year as rabbit does before Christmas. I mean, like, NEVER. Never even CLOSE.

Most years, you can also throw in snow restricting my ability to get around starting at the same time. Not this year though.

- DAA

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 06, 2018, 11:30 AM:

I don't need to add anything because Dave has covered my experience pretty well, and we hunt the same areas. Well, not totally, because I hunt way north and way south, as well. But when I consider the northern aspects, that's what I see. Also, I have always felt that the best calling of the entire year is September and October.

But, another thing. as far as the moon phase argument goes, that's a little complicated. I think the night hunting is best under a new moon. I also think that daytime calling during a new moon is somewhat retarded, and damned if I know why but I'm just basing it on 50+ years of casual observation. So, don't ask me to produce the proof.

Another corollary, I think is that calling, all things being equal, is a little better during both sides of a full moon. I have heard some say that it is because coyotes are afraid of their own shadows at night under a full moon. Might be an old wives tale for all I know but fact is, coyotes are a lot more spooky under full moon conditions. Of course, the main thing is....they can see you!

I don't care how slow the movements or whatever you are wearing, but with very little moonshine, a coyote can see you while making a stand, at night. I know that most of you don't give a shit about night hunting, (and that's a shame) but it all ties together, in my opinion.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on February 06, 2018, 12:41 PM:

March as always been a rough month for me. That time when they are paired up, seem to go quiet at night and don't respond to a howl. Started cleaning out dens. I kill a few but its never like it is any other month.

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 07, 2018, 07:19 AM:

We have struggling antelope here , recruitment in negative numbers , I stay after them till June.

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 11, 2018, 01:01 PM:

There have been a ton of topics discussed on this and other calling forums. Many of those topics have been literally beat to death but this ("lulls") is not one of those topics.

In fact, I would venture to say that the topic of what factors/variables create success and which factors/variables lead to failure is probably the most relevant and least understood topic of all within the coyote calling discussions.

Leonard and Dave, I hope you don't mind if I copy/paste a couple of your statements and respond to them directly. I believe they are worth repeating and expounding upon and I don't want anything lost in translation.

"Lulls" can be weekly, monthly, and they are definitely seasonal for some of the reasons mentioned. Success and failure also varies from area to area depending on numerous variables some of which I will elaborate on.

DAA: "So, you have fewer coyotes than any other time of the year. You have a higher percentage of them recently experiencing hunting pressure and exposed to calling than any other time of the year."

Agreed!

DAA : "Add to that... Mating and breeding season taking a lot of attention, energy and time for some of the coyotes. It does nothing to help the calling. Yeah, I know, use vocals. Have never seen it work anywhere even close to as good this time of year as rabbit does before Christmas. I mean, like, NEVER. Never even CLOSE."

I agree here too (mating and breeding interests and distress vs. vocalizations) BUT when considering less coyotes and more call shy coyotes from primarily distress calls, as you mentioned, vocalizations become more important at this time of year for that reason alone. Now combined with the fact, as you also mentioned, that coyotes are now pairing up and they are becoming more interested in their own kind, coyotes will respond better to vocals, in comparison to prey distress sounds, at this time of year better than at any other time.

There is another factor here that must be considered, as the portion of the coyote population that was born the previous spring reach a higher level of maturity, they become less fearful and more attracted to other mature coyotes. Adult coyotes will show an interest in vocalizations at any time of year but that attraction is not the same for a young dispersing coyote until they reach a higher level of maturity and confidence.

Coyotes are always interested in their own kind but never more than when they are mating, breeding, and picking out their den areas. You can use that to your advantage if for no other reason than just to know where they are and get moved in closer to them.

When I was hot and heavy into coyote calling, I was very disappointed if I didn't average a coyote on every other stand. I remember a well known TV and youtube celebrity tell me he averaged a coyote on every third stand. Well for most callers, those days are gone unless you have exclusive access or are just lucky enough to have an area to yourself. Most places are overrun by the FOX PRO army and that's just a fact of life. Anyone who has done any amount of coyote calling in places open to predator hunting has seen a dramatic drop in success simply based on the volume of coyotes exposed to it.

Now for those guys/gals who never experienced calling success like some of us have and they don't have those experiences to compare to, they might be thrilled to death to call a coyote on two stands or less out of 10.

The changes in the coyote calling game in recent years are overwhelming. Between YouTube and TV, there is a host of overnight sensations in the coyote calling world. Coyote calling contests have led to guys leasing up land for these contests. I have also heard of guys leasing land for exclusive coyote calling rights.

Guys with no interest in legitimate predator control work are now using decoy dogs and trying to convince themselves that they are helping the predator situation in a given area by leaving one of a pair of coyotes to attend to coyote pups in a den somewhere. Many calling techniques that have been closely held within the ranks of ADC men for many years now find their way into the private sector through YouTube and TV where they can be abused for celebrity status. Don't care if I offend anyone with that statement or not, that's just the way it is.

In summary, the biggest challenge here is to figure out what the coyotes in a given area have been exposed to and change your strategy accordingly.

[ February 11, 2018, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 11, 2018, 02:10 PM:

Leonard: "But, another thing. as far as the moon phase argument goes, that's a little complicated. I think the night hunting is best under a new moon. I also think that daytime calling during a new moon is somewhat retarded, and damned if I know why but I'm just basing it on 50+ years of casual observation."

A friend of mine and I had a real good discussion recently on the moon phase topic as well as weather changes (barometric pressure changes) and how they affect coyote behavior independent from each other.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of good studies and information available on how coyote behavior changes according to moon phase and weather changes. At least not that I have seen in print.

What I can rely on is my own observations as well as the observations of others who have shot and trapped enough coyotes to draw some conclusions.

Here is what I know for sure, like many other animals, coyotes can detect weather changes before they arrive. These weather changes will see all animals out searching for food before a major change in the weather.

My friend, based on acute trapping observations for many years, believes this activity will peak about 72 hours before the weather system arrives and taper down to the time of it's arrival. I found that very interesting and I really trust his knowledge and understanding of coyote behavior. We both believe the intensity of this activity will be directly proportionate to the intensity of the arriving weather/storm.

Coyote callers who are not paying attention to the behavior of all animals are really missing an important element in coyote calling success.

What I personally know to be true on this subject is that coyote activity reaches it's peak about 72 hours after a major change in the weather particularly a significant new blanket of snow. We have seen this for years based on aerial hunting success to the point where it is not even subject to debate anymore. One would think it would be immediately following the storm but that is not the case.

My friend's support for this theory on the 72 hour activity following the storm is based on how long he believes it takes coyotes to really get hungry after being laid up and not moving much during the storm. I have to agree that this makes perfect sense. To expound on this further, I also believe this time delay after the storm has to do with a behavioral adjustment to this dramatic change in a coyote's environment. There is so many of the coyote's natural food sources which are now covered up with snow. That fact prompts an increased need to travel in colder temperatures which leads to more energy requirements which leads to a greater need to obtain food.

My friends theory of the peak of this coyote activity preceding the weather change starting 72 hours prior to the weather arriving was an interesting observation. I cannot either confirm or deny this change in behavior being that much in advance of a major weather system but I have enough trust in his observational skills to support it. The 72 hour follow-up activity is undeniable.

We also discussed how animals in search of food during the period of time preceding a major weather change can be so intense that they will often throw normal cautions to the wind. In this situation, they place their instinct to obtain food ahead of their instincts to fear man and his electronic rabbits. This is particularly noticeable before a dramatic weather change such as a major blizzard.

Coyote behavior is always a battle between survival instincts and caution. The more desperate the situation, the more that survival instincts will win over normal cautions.

Food preparation before a big change in the weather and movement and obtaining food following that weather change are two factors that should always be considered.

Moon phase.....my friend and I also visited about moon phases. It is common knowledge that coyotes see better than humans can see at night. With that said, I do not believe coyotes can see as good on dark nights as humans can see during normal daylight hours. In other words, we both believe that obtaining food on moonlit nights is easier for coyotes than on dark nights ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL (olfactory benefits). Therefore we both believe there is more movement on darker nights.

When coyotes rely equally on their noses as well as their eye sight, they are going to be more successful in hunting and therefore have to move less on nights where they can see better ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL (prey availability).

Now, once social behavior becomes just as important as obtaining food (December - February), the game changes again.

Too bad someone hasn't really broke this down with gps radio collars on coyotes.

A lot of this is just theory based on observations!

[ February 11, 2018, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on February 11, 2018, 02:32 PM:

The 72 hour theory is most interesting to me. Kinda makes sense to me.
Great piece of info.
Mark

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 11, 2018, 02:37 PM:

I did quite of bit of editing of my posts in case someone was reading my posts during that editing.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2018, 06:11 PM:

Hmm? I was typing something and lost it? Anyway, good posts Scott.

Something to bear in mind if like me, you can't always hang around in hunting country for 72 hours before and after a weather front. But, I will say, if I'm caught in it and wait it out, I have found that coyotes do the same thing as the deer do and that is, seek lower elevations, valleys and creek bottoms, that sort of cover. And if not strictly holding in cover, in place, and they do drop down, sometimes they decide to hunt, if they have managed to get into the lee of the wind. So, that's what I do, drop down and hunt the back side of the mountain. I especially like to catch them when it stops snowing. For me, that's a stimulation without regard to a three day waiting period which I can't afford to wait out.

In fact, I have developed methods for dealing with severe weather that a lot of guys would consider a bit too extreme. But, in a contest, when you know that other teams might have better conditions than I do, I sometimes feel like I have to hunt in that crap and it's not especially sporting, but it involves getting them to look at you and I will let you ponder what you have to do, to get a coyote to get up and look at you. But, sometimes two coyotes is a big deal when everybody else is sipping coffee at the diner.

Scott, you need to check in here more often. You are a thinker and provide much food for thought. Thank you.

Good hunting, El Bee

[ February 11, 2018, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 11, 2018, 06:44 PM:

Yeh Leonard, I concur with you on the places to hunt immediately preceding, during, and immediately following one of these major weather systems. They will either be tucked into cover or hunting where they are out of the wind.

I am simply suggesting that if you are limited in when you can go coyote hunting and you are going to try to select the best days, the 72 hour theory may prove to be the biggest movements and provide the best responses ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. Sorry for that constant disclaimer but there is just too many other variables.

Not suggesting for anyone to wait the system out or not to hunt during it. As you imply, in a contest you can't pick your days.

Thanks for the comment but I just can't get to the computer as often as I'd like. When I do, I am usually researching something, like scopes.

~SH~

[ February 11, 2018, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 12, 2018, 03:05 AM:

Thank you Scott love reading your posts always full of great info. I have my own weather station its located in my wife's Knee , goes off about 72 hours before a major change we always chalk it up to barometric pressure. I will now grab my shit and get out the door ! Nice thing about retirement is I can go anytime and I live where I hunt. [Cool]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2018, 08:51 AM:

Yes, quit rubbing it in, Paul!

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 12, 2018, 09:43 AM:

Most of Az. is public land but you already knew that !

Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 12, 2018, 03:19 PM:

I am unsure about the 72 hour being the peak before a storm, but 2 nights before and the night before are absolutely terrible for catching coyotes. Possums do not follow this rule, so you better have plenty of dry dirt.

In my experience, right after a storm was really good for calling coyotes, especially when we are talking snow. I guess it would depend on the time of year and the need for food, but after a dead of winter snow storm was always good as soon as the snow stopped. Cats,on the other hand, almost always seemed to move 3-4 days following the same event. You could check an area one to two days later and not see a track, but come back a day or two after that and the place would be covered up.

I have kept a pretty keen eye on barometric pressure this year. Non scientific observations lead me to believe 30+ and falling is terrible for calling but 29 or 30 and rising is good. I know there are a lot of variables and I am trying to eliminate those one at a time. LOL

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2018, 04:57 PM:

I agree with what Randy said about coyote being eager just as soon as the snow stops. Don't know why but I have observed it too many times, it's a good time to hunt.

As far as barometric pressure, I have the utmost confidence at night, in the dark of the moon, clear and cold with high pressure.... and the coyotes will be running!

Hows it going AR?

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 13, 2018, 04:48 PM:

Doing good Leonard. However I have discovered it is extremely difficult....no scratch that..It is impossible for me to keep up with those fellows who are half my age, especially when they guide for sheep in Alaska. This year I just said screw it. They can beat me to every stand. I do all the calling and there ain't gonna be nothing happen until I get there anyways.

Story.

We found a good looking piece of ground. Rolling hills with scattered sage and yuccas. A real rugged draw ran along the edge of it. We bumped a coyote on the way in, but decided to call it anyhow. My partner drifted off to my right about 75 yards and the wind was in our face.

Started off with a couple howls and then waited 4 or 5 minutes. No response so I switched to some generic rabbit and let it play for about 5 minutes before I shut it down. It was then I heard a magpie raising hell in a tree that was situated along side that draw. About 250 yards from where I sat. Got out the binocs and saw his back was towards me and he was looking straight down into that draw. My immediate thought was cat.

I switched to my favorite cat sound and lowered the volume. I paid no attention to the area I was supposed to be watching and concentrated on the tree. Three..maybe four minutes later I see two cats ease up out of that draw and sit down at the base of that tree. Just staring towards the speaker.

As I am squaring up, I glance towards my partner in order to determine if he saw them or not. Mind you it was just a micro glance because it really didn't make any difference. Remember that's the sob that beat me to the stand in the first place. Anyhow, I pick the cat on the left because that is my side and I am just about ready to shoot when...boom and through the scope I see the right cat drop. Left cat just sits there so I shoot him.

The shot looked good and sounded good, but about 2 seconds later I see a cat running up the draw. Unscathed. Partner yells you must have missed. I hang my head and agree. As he is walking over there, I am gathering the caller and my thoughts. I am reliving the entire sequence when he shouts...there are two cats laying here. Well....don't have to kick myself in the ass after all.

When he returns with the cats I ask him if he heard that magpie squawking over there. He said he did and wondered what all the ruckus was about. I said...now you know.

Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on February 13, 2018, 06:37 PM:

lol.....great story.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2018, 09:24 PM:

Yes, very good story!

Praise for AR. People write me all the time, can't log on for one reason or another, and they generally don't know anything, are using a different email address and don't even know their screen name. I always ask them if they know their MEMBER NUMBER? because the way the software is designed, that is the best, fastest search. Nobody has ever provided their member number, until today, Randy Shaw knew his member number!

And, by the way, I don't keep records on this but I would bet that LOCO would win the gold medal for number of times asking me for his log in information. You are the best, Danny!

Okay, now what did I get in here for anyway?

Oh yeah! About that third cat that ran off. Randy probably knows this? But, In many situations like that, it pays to chase after that damned cat! They aren't like a coyote and run into the next time zone. Nope, as soon as they get around the corner they slow down and it never crosses their little mind that somebody might chase after them. I have caught a few cats flat footed and surprised, very surprised! Remember this, too. A cat always goes uphill, so if you reach a point where you are not sure which way he went: pick uphill every time.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ February 13, 2018, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on February 15, 2018, 05:49 PM:

An hour or so into a decent snow storm is when I like to get out calling. The following night after it's stopped usually goes well for me too.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 16, 2018, 05:33 AM:

Just wanted to thank all who've replied!
Nuggets upon nuggets to ponder...excellent!!!

Reading Randy's cat double story makes me wonder about how many cats come to a call, never to be seen, while a coyote lopes in for a bullet???

Think we had that happen earlier this year. First light stand looking over some rather tall broomweed. Coyote pops up and comes like it read the script. Stops about 70yds and I drop it right next to the call. Only thing is, at the shot, I saw a body flop and whirl about 20yds to the left???
The grass was tall enough to where I thought my coyote hit the ground and flopped all the way over there. But, in hindsight, wonder if a cat hadn't been sneaking in from the left, and boogered out at the shot when that coyote dropped right next to it??? Just speculating, but I know I saw a flash of size able fur & movement that couldn't have been the dead coyote, cuz it ground checked right where it stood...

Thoughts?

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 16, 2018, 08:36 AM:

Cats amaze me at how they can cover 100 yards of bare ground and suddenly appear right in front of you.

They are the masters of stalking and we get to use that to our advantage at times. They think they are invisible so when you shoot at say a coyote that lopes in, most of the time they will stick around like nothing happened as long as the sound keeps their interest.

I remember calling a pair of cats that were standing 2' apart looking at the caller. I shot one and saw the other one just look at his friend like, what's wrong with you? Then he looked back at the caller so I shot him too.

If I'm in a cat area, I tend to stay on stand longer of course but the one thing that has made a difference for me is staying on stand after the calling quits. A lot of times I've had coyotes come in 5 minutes after the stand was over and I've also seen a cat just get up and walk away without being in invisible mode. I've also walked out to my caller only to finally see a cat standing there watching me, they can read your mind and move faster than you can in this situation.

I can't stand it when someone gets up after killing a critter but a lot of folks think the stand is over after they shoot.

[ February 16, 2018, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2018, 09:01 AM:

Let me add: because of what Tom mentioned, always take your rifle with you, when you go out to pick up a critter. The first time you have that helpless feeling because you left your rifle leaning against your stool and you kicked out another animal and you only have rocks to throw at him, if you are smart, you won't do it again.

I know that I can drag three coyotes with my rifle slung on my back, so don't give me any excuses.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 16, 2018, 12:43 PM:

[Big Grin]

Yeah, if you want to practice looking REALLY stupid, try leaving your shottie on the calling stool and end up chasing a 'dead' coyote across the desert with a .22 Derringer.
We learn................slowly sometimes.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2018, 02:16 PM:

Along those lines, I know a guy that had a runner get up in front of him, (no gun) so he threw a hunting knife and caught him right between the shoulder blades. At night.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 17, 2018, 04:35 AM:

I was calling in a wash and a quail hunter walked thru my stand so I get up leave my rifle on my stool go out and get the caller and look back and see a black coyote behind my stool. What a dumbass !

[ February 17, 2018, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]

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