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Author
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Topic: Blank stands
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted April 18, 2017 08:39 PM
Ninety percent of the time, I am cold calling. Driving along reading sign and looking for structure. I would make stands where things looked good and this seemed to work pretty good.
However, this year I made a lot of blank stands which persisted across 5 states. I found myself staying over 20 minutes on stand, using several different sounds, less calling, more vocals and just plain frustration. And before Scott can say it, I know, that is a lot of variables.
I try to analize every stand and based upon the amount of sign,the approach and what I observed, I believe coyotes were hearing me on at least half of those blank stands. Several times after the first series, a coyote would simply sit up in the sage and look my way. Couldn't shake him and after a few minutes he would just lay back down. Or he might take a few lazy steps my direction and then sit down. I can count the number of "hard chargers" from last season on one hand. All of this was very humbling.
I was one blank stand away from enrolling at Predator University. Any thoughts?
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 19, 2017 03:32 AM
For the sake of argument, lets assume you made 50 stands over a 3 month period of time. In that amount of time you are going to experience days when the fish don't bite but you are also going to experience days when the fish should be biting.
What you are experiencing could more than likely be called the carnage left by the Fox Pro Army.
When you consider the popularity and increase of coyote calling on TV, YouTube, DVDs, and coyote calling contests as well as the idiot proof advancement in electronic calls there is very few coyotes out there that have not heard an electronic call.
That is also the reason guys who rely so heavily on contest hunting or dvds are constantly looking for virgin ears.
You are going to have those times when the fish simply won't bite but not over a large amount of time and stands.
Stop and think about this Shaw. Consider the Midwest coyote calling contest with 150 teams. Consider that each team made a minimum of 10 stands. That is 1500 stands. Now consider that it is quite probable that a pair of coyotes heard the call on every third stand. That amounts to 1000 coyotes exposed to one shot of calling. Now consider that most calling contests will find most hunters killing between 20% and 30% of the coyotes called in. 750 coyotes exposed to one shot of calling. Now consider all the others who are out calling in the same area within the same year.
How many times do bullets have to wiz by a coyote before they start associating those same sounds (calling and off road vehicle noise) with danger? Curiosity in each individual coyote continually plays against their caution based on their life's experiences.
Yeh, yeh I know the "chest pounders" will say, "I don't have any problem calling them in ... blah blah". Check the "chest pounders" out and it will be early season or private land or exclusive rights. Hardly comparable to a popular coyote calling spot on public land in January.
Coyotes haven't changed, they've just adapted like they always do.
~SH~
[ April 19, 2017, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 19, 2017 03:37 AM
quote:
I was one blank stand away from enrolling at Predator University. Any thoughts?
Any thoughts on how to dry the coffee (that shot out my nose) from under the letters of my keyboard???
P.S.
That is some sobering math, Scott...
[ April 19, 2017, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 19, 2017 05:54 AM
Don't be so sure he's kidding, Fred. I heard through the grapevine that a few years ago, AR and Tony talked coyotes over a nice lunch....or was it breakfast?
Just kidding. my friend. Where you been?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS the impression I get, from those that trash TT, is that he mistreats his dogs.
edit: oh, BTW. Scott's second sentence is what I've been saying for twenty years. You can blame Foxpro for coyote hunting going to hell.
To illustrate: We hunted a man's property who had said that his land had not been hunted in over 5 years. Well, this is subject to interpretation. Every coyote we saw, was running the other way as soon as we started calling. Then, he mentioned that when he would be out tending his cows, he would put his Foxpro on the hood of his truck. And, he said he would fling AR firepower at every coyote he saw. However, he had never made a stand, sit down beside a bush wearing camo. So, in his mind, his coyotes had never been called. Go figure?
[ April 19, 2017, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted April 19, 2017 07:03 AM
TT probably cleaned up the territory before you got there Mr.Shaw. Youll have to be little quicker next time.
Mark
[ April 19, 2017, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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tedo
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4320
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posted April 19, 2017 08:34 AM
OK a question about coyotes association of danger with a call, do they retain that thru the off season or with out reinforcement does their fear diminish? I am a novice at this coyote hunting so my approach has been the food-fu#k or fight approach approach to calling. I had fair success this past winter calling primarily on State Trust Land I managed to kill forty coyotes. This was my second season, the previous year I killed twenty-five, I contribute most of my success too the areas I hunted.
Posts: 73 | From: S.E. Arizona | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 19, 2017 10:33 AM
I'd say 40 coyotes is a pretty fair season, by yourself, second season. Depends on how many days, of course, but still nothing to be ashamed of.
Even when I was hitting it pretty hard, I only got out two weekends per month. And didn't hunt during denning season.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 19, 2017 01:39 PM
quote:
OK a question about coyotes association of danger with a call, do they retain that thru the off season or with out reinforcement does their fear diminish?
In a nutshell, if the coyotes you hunt are hearing the call month in and month out, they'll be inherently harder to call and kill then those that don't hear a call for months.
I had a much longer response typed out, but really, that simple sentence covers it.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 19, 2017 02:38 PM
tedo,
From the standpoint of basic instincts for survival, "a coyote is a coyote is ....."
But when it comes to behavior, each is an individual from the standpoint of how curiosity plays against caution within their daily experiences. If an individual coyote has had a lot more good experiences with a rabbit squeal than bad, it might make the same mistake repeatedly. In fact, I am quite sure of it. The opposite is also true. Time certainly diminishes fear.
Now add in territorial behavior, maternal instincts, and food and the coyote that would normally run away is now running in.
It all depends on what that individual coyote has faced in it's lifetime.
There is a constant struggle between caution and curiosity.
I had a coyote enter a pole barn once within a mile of a town, kill a goat, and consume the entire goat in the building. I was dumb founded. At first I refused to believe it was a coyote even though it was text book coyote feeding. Same rib length, same hide removal, same feeding. Seen it hundreds of times. I looked for tracks and found some coyote tracks nearby along the fence as well as some dog tracks. Couldn't convince myself it was a dog due to the typical coyote feeding behavior although that would have been my first guess without a carcass. The dog thing is seldom about food.
Upon further observation, I found where a coyote had entered the small pasture and left in the same place. The track leaving was sunk deeper into the mud than the track entering. I was totally convinced then because the added weight of the feed would count for the difference in tracks side by side in the mud.
Turned out to be a completely hairless mangy coyote. Desperate situations require desperate measures.
The funny part of this story was that I was told by the goat owners to talk to the local expert. So I ambled up to the door of a nearby home and an older fella answered the door. I introduced myself and made a little small talk. He didn't have too much to say then finally said, "so, what do you think killed that goat". I had already been told that he thought it was a mountain lion so I suspected I might be in for a fight. I said, "well the feed is exactly like a coyote and I found some coyote tracks over by the fence" to which he instantly barked, "it wasn't no damn coyote that killed that goat". I replied, "well I found some coyote tracks I can show you where they are". He started to walk with me than turned and said, "I don't need to see any tracks, I know it wasn't a coyote that killed that goat". By then I was starting to get a belly full and probably shouldn't have but I said, "well, next time maybe they should just call you". To which he instantly replied, "might as well, you don't know anything or you wouldn't work for the government". I literally laughed out loud and had a hard time stopping. I was so impressed with how thoroughly I had just been burned. When I finally caught my breath I said, "Mr. you might just have a point at that". He seemed quite amused by my amusement and we both laughed. I had to give him credit, he hammered me to the wall with that one.
It was a mangy coyote but I let him think it was a lion.
My point? There is no set behavior pattern for coyotes and this one was driven by desperation.
I have seen coyotes use culverts when they are being chased by a plane many times but don't see them use culverts much at any other time. Saw one use a very large concrete box culvert to enter a suburb of Rapid City.
When mange was common I would see coyotes use culverts quite a bit and I am sure it was due to the ability to find more warmth.
~SH~
[ April 19, 2017, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted April 19, 2017 03:01 PM
Damn it Leonard for the last time it was supper. LOL
I did have a guy text me offering to pay for my tuition by starting a Go Fund Me page. I found that not only very considerate, but a little touching as well. LOL
Scott....99% on public land so I kinda figured some of the coyotes had been conditioned to fox pro sounds. However, at times, I was also using those fresh sounds TR uses and there was some improvement. In my opinion,those are some very good coyote vocals
I forgot to mention that my shooting sucked too. Not so much on shot placement, but bullet performance. I guess that is what happens when you chop-off your rifle barrel to accomodate a silencer and the loss in velocity drops the bullet below the sweet spot. Never again.
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 19, 2017 04:24 PM
Having watched coyotes, I know there is a lot more association that is going on. Stop and think about what a coyote is hearing before the shot is fired. First it's the vehicle noise coming from a less than normal place. Then it is followed by a moment of silence. Then it is followed by a calling sequence. I don't care how good the sound is, I believe there is still a difference between live and Memorex once those burned coyotes start listening for it.
So what do they do, when they hear the vehicle noise followed by silence? They head to the hill top to watch you arrive. Then they hear the same thing in the same order coming from the same area they heard the last time they got shot at.
In addition, most of the times the coyotes are 3/4 or mile better off the roads. The vehicle noise that alerts those that have been burned usually comes from the same direction.
This is why if I know they have been called, I change everything. Time of day (evening instead of morning), lots of walking, different approach, hand calls, non conventional sound, etc. etc.
Another perfect example of this is the calving pastures. This is why I found so many tracks and caught so many coyotes pacing back and forth on the ridges above the calving pastures in SD. Those coyotes would watch the human activity and as soon as things slowed down and the tractor, pickup, ATV, etc. would leave, here they would come to pick up cleanings and colostrum manure.
Again, it's the entire sequence of events to consider, not just the calling.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 19, 2017 08:01 PM
I just went back and reviewed up to the original post. He states that he thinks coyotes heard him on about half the blank stands. Or, something like that?
What it made me think about was the reservation and that there is, in point of fact, a coyote behind every bush. It has the highest coyote population anywhere in the United States and comparable to parts of Mexico.
Both those places, there is no predator hunting by the locals, who wouldn't waste a bullet on a coyote, if they hunt at all, it's for meat.
So, forget about educated animals. I know everybody who has ever hunted down there and there might be 20 people scattered along the border which is about 120 miles long. But not enough hunting to educate the coyotes, besides they are so virgin that you never have to take a shot even a little risky.
Now, what was my point? Oh yeah, that some days they aren't responding, even though you KNOW they are out there! Coyotes have some kind of inner communication with the rest of them. Some days they come in on a string. Some days, every damned one will start circling at 150 yards, some days at 200 yards and some days, they are all out there listening, behind a bush and you can knock yourself out looking for a sound that will entice them to come in. Sure they might come in but it will be long after you have packed up and moved on. I know this also, when I have turned around, for one reason or another, a few hours later, and there he is pissing on my tire tracks.
But sometimes, even at the dump, where there are so many coyotes any given 24 hour period and they ain't educated, but they ain't coming in ether! I firmly believe they howl sometimes, and other times they are totally silent, and in the same places. Something triggers this behavior and for want of a better explanation, I believe it's atmospheric pressure that collectively controls their behavior. These are unpressured coyotes and they get spooky all at the same time. Be prepared for lousy hunting until something snaps and suddenly they start responding very eagerly. Not "some" of them, they all seem to get hungry at the same time, no matter the prey sound or the vocal.
You can say that I don't know what I'm talking about, which I wouldn't blame you. But I have seen this phenomena for many years from coyotes that have no worries or any hunting pressure to speak of. And, when they are there and they aren't moving, hunting pressure is not the answer. Not in this charmed place. This place that commands your respect. It's just like Mexico, might as well be, and if any of you guys ever get the chance to hunt coyotes in Mexico, you will know what I'm talking about. I've been fortunate, I've been there on both sides of the border. Now days, it's not worth it. Definitely not worth it. But it makes for some interesting conversation.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted April 20, 2017 06:30 AM
The first time I hunted Eastern Oregon I had a bang up day. I was by myself but if I'd had a partner the take that day would've been upped a lot more.
So about a month later a friend asked me to take him over that way. We called for 3 full days and killed 2 coyotes.
My wife and stepson wanted to go over and take pictures and kill a few coyotes. As per usual I used the Foxpro sometimes and a mouth call the rest of the time. We were calling nothing. Out of curiosity at the end of each stand I'd play the coyote locator sound on the Foxpro and got coyotes responding on every damned one. I mean every single stand. They were there but weren't responding. Eastern Oregon is hit hard most of the time. Every little town has a few people with Foxpros and there's a government hunter who works year round in Burns. He uses a Foxpro.
I totally agree that Foxpro has had a deleterious affect on calling. Every yahoo with the money has one and even though they don't know what they're doing they do it anyway.
After a snowfall a few years ago I went calling and on every stand I made I saw footprints going in and out at every location. With my BLM surface ownership maps I located some smaller public land bordering private land where if you didn't have a map you couldn't tell if the land was public or private and started calling coyotes again. Trouble is it's a long drive between stands.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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tedo
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4320
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posted April 20, 2017 06:56 AM
Leonard,
You may be right with the reference to barometric pressure, it definitely has a impact on fishing. I had days when coyotes responded well and like others, days when I drew a blank.
I hunt two-three days a week during the week so I can avoid deer, bird, and weekend hunters. I disregard moon phase, barometric pressure, temperature and just go because I enjoy being out.
Posts: 73 | From: S.E. Arizona | Registered: Feb 2013
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 26, 2017 02:38 PM
"I believe it's atmospheric pressure that collectively controls their behavior"
Possible. I share this area with the guy that helped my dad cut my teeth chasing coyotes, but using greyhounds. I'm 52, and since before I was born, he has kept a log book on weather conditions the day he hunted and how many he saw and killed. Speaking with a friend who has hunted with him for years, I was told he now evaluates a day for hunting potential by looking at barometric pressure. He has a specific set of criteria that he has learned are indicative of a better day than others. I'll reach out to my buddy to see what that is and get back with it rather than try to recall what I was told.
In the past three seasons, we have killed 105, 53, and 101, respectively. By themselves, these are respectable numbers and we cause the dog hunters a great deal of stress with them. But, as I told my partner, the most impressive part of those figures is that we work the same 15-20 spots over and over again throughout the season. In some areas, the attraction for the coyotes is obvious, i.e., a feedlot. Our feedlots here are relatively small compared to those further west carrying less than 300 cattle on any given day. Many operators around here work their own cattle and hold them on winter pasture close to the big house at their farms. Feedlots and areas influenced by them account for less than 10% of my ground, with the other 90% being farm ground and open pastures.
For us, a big part of our success is that we always operate under the impression that we are being watched - before, during and after a stand. Going back to the early Beckoff work where he pursued the belief that 60-65% of Kansas coyotes are part of a family group post-dispersal leaving 35-40% transients and nomadic, we manage our techniques assuming that if and when we see a coyote, there's a 65% chance that it is not alone. That said, we continue calling after a shot/ kill expecting another coyote to appear, and that happens often enough to stay with the strategy. Sometimes, number two appears right away and in the same spot as number one. Other times, it may appear at a distance surveying the situation.
In my area where tree lines and field edges are the rule, coyotes behave somewhat differently than what I see in places like the panhandle. I believe that the adage, "A coyote is a coyote is a coyote..." only applies so far, but that coyotes are very much a product of their environments. In the sandhills, we watch the wind, set up accordingly, open with vocalizations, and can routinely steer the coyotes downwind into the area being covered by the shooters. More times that not, the coyotes will swing wide and work their way in along the wind line. This past November, I specifically did that using my Revolution and we killed 11 in a couple days after relatively short walks because I'm old and crippled.
Hereabouts, we watch the structure. Coyotes have a lot of vertical cover to conceal their approach, be that tree lines, weeded fence lines, creeks, woody drainages, timber, etc., etc. Most of the time, my coyotes will exploit that cover as they work downwind, especially if I'm howling some, and appear a lot closer to us than most guys would usually see. First appearance is usually a sudden "Oh shit there he is" at about 50-100 yards, if not closer, followed by a pause to recon, then a burst of speed to close the gap. Sometimes it's just a set of ears in the sunflowers and a stand off.
Most importantly, I've studied the way other guys hunt, and not do what they do. For one, I don't, nor have I ever owned a FoxPro.
For two, I know how to use a hand call and occasionally do. Surprises me how successful that is these days. Big mistake overlooking hand calling in this day of tech.
Three, sometimes I walk a long ways in. Other times, I'm right near a well traveled road. I figure the less I walk, the less chance I'll be detected on occasion. A couple of my best places are within spitting distance of asphalt. If I time my insertion properly, traffic is a benefit.
This past season, we were called in to work a pair that were hanging around too close to feeder calves on a feedlot. We approached from the odd side and spotted our two coyotes playing grab ass at about 700 yards on a open wheatfield SW of where we were trying to crest a hill to get into place. While we were trying to devise a way to get over the hill and into our hides, I spotted the feed truck coming. We hunkered down and waited for the truck. When it got to us, we started walking alongside of it. The driver stops and tells us there are two coyotes on the field. I told him I was aware of that and to keep moving as normal. We got into position and I managed to howl them in and we took them both.
We approach our set ups with as much stealth as possible. We get into position, usually with Kevin overwatching the downwind approach. As a team, he is the primary shooter so I can focus on sequencing sounds, whether with a caller or with hand calls/ howlers. We each have a job and we let one another do them without stepping on one another's toes. The goal is to kill coyotes as a team, not best one another. We do our thing, often only waiting a minute or two - long enough to get our sticks set firmly, checking the arc of our fields of fire, and covering our faces. I spin the tunes or blow the call. If we get a shot, we shoot and miss/kill, then go right into calling again. If we can go ten minutes without seeing a coyote, even if we have one down, we wait 3-5 minutes after the last sound and watch for candy ass coyotes sneaking in low or hanging in the cover too scared to clear the trees, then we very quietly gather our caller, sticks, dead coyotes and leave using the same sense of stealth we used going in. No attaboys, no back patting or congratulations. Get it done and get the hell out without calling attention to ourselves, and many times, we can go back the next day and do it all over again. For the past three seasons, we've seen more sign at the end of the season than I used to see at the beginning. There are a lot of coyotes around here
There you go, LB. You asked us to share for the lurkers. That's a pretty basic description of how we set up and it works well for us, even in areas where we have no exclusive access rights, no locked gates, know of others calling those same spots, and always seeing fresh tire tracks from the truck and dog hunters. Lots of coyotes, and they are pressured a lot, too.
Hell, I've even not called coyotes and killed them. We had a trio of coyotes near a feedlot that would run away at first sound. Always taking the same route of egress. I got the idea to set Mark and Kevin up in place to intercept and then swung around and made like a regular stand. First squeal, there they go. Seconds later, two of the three were ambushed. LOL
Three weeks ago, I tried something new. Got a call here in town of a vixen red with four kits living under a garden shed in the nice part of town. The neighbors were feeding them as evidenced by the butter tub sitting a few feet from the den entrance under the shed. The kits were walking right up to kids and people begging for handouts. The complainants wanted them gone, but not killed. We're just now seeing reds return after a nasty bout with mange several years ago, so I'm okay with not killing them until they're "coat ready", so I got an idea. I went there with a quart of John Graham's coyote pee and my caller. I sprayed the hell out of everything that looked like a fox would mark it, especially around that shed, then I spent thirty minutes in the owner's backyard switching between coyote fighting sounds and red fox distress, just loud enough to make the point, but not loud enough to rile the neighborhood. Within 48 hours, mama and babies were long gone and haven't been seen since. My working hypothesis was simple - if someone showed up who is four times bigger than me and pissed all over my house before threatening to kill my kids, my ass would move, too. Didn't know if it would work, but by gawd, it did. LOL
There's more that we do, but we keep that for ourselves.
[ May 26, 2017, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 27, 2017 10:32 AM
That's a pretty good post, Lance. I'm impressed!
Good hunting. El bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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