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Author Topic: I think this cop is in big trouble?
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 13 posted January 20, 2019 08:44 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
First, the guy makes a circus shot, apparently? Running suspect had to be 50 yards away? But what happened to the procedure? I thought he had to fear for his life? The kid is running away. They just sentenced a cop in Chicago to 81 months for pumping 16 rounds into some kid that didn't listen to commands. After 14 years, this cop doesn't know policy? I'm actually kind of baffled.

If you have a gun, expect to get shot. Doesn't matter if you wave it at the po po, you be goin' down! I actually have that fear. They will always side with law enforcement and you be dead, can't dispute anything. Trigger happy is alive and well in American law enforcement.

Good hunting. El Bee

https://www.foxnews.com/us/arizona-police-body-cam-shows-boy-14-fleeing-before -being-shot-by-cop

edit: and another thing. He's hiding behind a barrel, whips it out and not right away, but the little boy is half way down the block before he decides to let off a couple rounds. Plenty of time to reconsider what the hell he's doing? But, to run from a dumb fucking cop is giving him the license to kill. How many police officers are out there, with the power of life and death, that have no business with the authority to use deadly force? Scary!

[ January 20, 2019, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26122 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2019 10:01 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry, but I see it a bit differently.
(1) Don't give the cops a reason to pull you over.
(2) Don't give the cops a reason to pull their gun.
(3) Don't fail to obey commands and run from the cop giving him a reason to shoot you.

If you are in the right and the cop is in the wrong, there are lawyers that will line up to see that you're compensated with much coin.

If you're in the wrong, you may end up in jail but without bleeding bullet holes.

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When urinating outdoors, remember to face East, toward Mecca whenever possible.

Posts: 5162 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2019 10:37 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
You do realize that the cop can't claim that the kid pointed a gun at him, he says he saw a gun. And, the kid was running the other way, he has video to prove it. If the kid was burgling a pick up truck and finds an airsoft gun and steals it, it still doesn't mean the cop can be flinging lead down the alley, who knows what he might hit.

But, I'm sure you aren't telling us that the police officer was completely justified in killing this 14 year old kid? You're not, are you? Yeah, we all know, lead a pure life, no misdeeds and this will keep you from harm. I guess a dumb kid, lack of proper parenting, stealing from a vehicle and all that, he richly deserved what he got, right? I'm talking about what the cop got wrong, not what the kid did, which admittedly, was all wrong from the get go. That doesn't mean you can shoot him. I am not a Liberal apologist, I expect police officers to act in accordance with their training and department policy and I will wager that the Tempe Police department will not stand behind this guy, he will be fired or put on administrative leave, immediately. I could be wrong? All I have to go by is the dumb cops chest camera and that's all I need to reach an conclusion.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26122 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2019 10:47 AM      Profile for Lone Howl   Author's Homepage   Email Lone Howl         Edit/Delete Post 
"a child of 14-years-old who doesn't know the difference of what's good and what's bad because he hasn't lived long enough," Arce’s parents said at the vigil."

Kids do stupid shit...but breaking into cars while carrying a fake gun, trying to play tough, is a great way to get killed. We are all a product of our environment somewhat, but what I see is people glorifying a certain lifestyle, and mom and dad teaching these kids that this shit is normal. I see it everyday...very close. I just dont get it. You cant flip a channel on tv without seeing the influence across society...the music, imagary, the speak..its a bit sickening. Maybe Im just getting old?
Mark

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www.varmintsinc.com

When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.

Posts: 2023 | From: Porterville Kalifornia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2019 11:37 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, I'm with you on all that Amigo.

My problem is police misbehavior. People are going to do stupid shit and break the law and that's why we have cops. These guys are supposed to be professionals, and after 14 years, you would think the guy knows when to whip it out. You just don't shoot a kid running down the alley.

In these situations, I always put myself in the citizen's place. I don't want a cop making a mistake because I have a firearm, and I almost always have a firearm. If I thought having a gun means that a cop can shoot me and be justified, I would have to forgo my constitutional rights. There goes my ability to protect myself.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26122 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2019 01:05 PM      Profile for Lone Howl   Author's Homepage   Email Lone Howl         Edit/Delete Post 
I have to agree here..cops have to get a handle on themselves...unless threatened in some way you shouldnt be shooting people in the back running away. Well, maybe he was thinking if he doesnt shoot him now. the kid will be waiting around the corner and shoot the cop..dont know,Yes...cops want to go home at night, we get that..but for good or bad you signed up for this. Its risky. Gotta use a little common sense, even under stress...ya have to. Ive said it before, at this stage of the game, after the last 6-7 years of cop shootings, black lives matter shit and all that...why are cops still doing this shit? Are they not understanding whats happening across the country with cops? Are they being told that they will be backed up and 100% not go to jail? This thing aint going to end well for cops...I dont even know at this point, why you would even choose to be one.

One thing I think sometimes, is that these young guys that grow up without any shooting experience, not being around guns at all because their parent think they are evil, ...these guys join up, get some gun training, then they go buck fucking wild. I just think that if youve never been around guns, and understand what they will do, you dont have any frame of reference..except maybe from the video games youve been playing all your life. Or..they see a gun and freak the fuck out and start shooting. SHit I dont know.
Mark

[ January 20, 2019, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]

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www.varmintsinc.com

When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.

Posts: 2023 | From: Porterville Kalifornia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2019 01:36 PM      Profile for R.Shaw           Edit/Delete Post 
In the right or in the wrong.

You are one traffic stop away from a life-altering incident.

Posts: 530 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2019 01:42 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm perfectly okay with any member expressing an opinion that doesn't mesh exactly with my thinking. I'm not trying to control the conversation, just stating my opinion as a member. Again, with every questionable cop shooting, I always try to put myself in the victims place and I'm not comfortable with some of these outcomes just because somebody can say; Play stupid games, (how does that one go? I forgot) But the intent is to blame the victim, and I'm not always agreeing with that.

But again, if you happen to believe police officers are always to be given the benefit of doubt, that is your privilege.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26122 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2019 03:55 PM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
Recently discussed the legal aspects of shoot/ don't shoot with a friend who used to be in law enforcement both in the military and the real world. I raised a question to him where I asked him if there was ever a situation in which an LEO could use lethal force where, under the exact same circumstance, a civilian lawfully carrying a weapon for personal protection could not.

We discussed this back and forth and we agreed that LEO's have the lawful authority to insert themselves into situations that might reasonably place them in a situation where they would be forced to use lethal force, whereas a civilian would not. But, that aside, he was hard pressed to come up with any specific situation where he, as an on-duty LEO, could fire upon another person where I, as a civilian in harm's way could not lawfully do the same thing.

Think about this before answering. If an LEO sees someone being attacked and a reasonable person would regard the victim's life to be threatened, the LEO has the lawful authority to engage the attacker and, if the attacker does not cease what s/he is doing and the officer regards his welfare to be at risk should he attempt to employ direct, non-lethal measures, he would be allowed to use lethal force to protect the victim.

Same situation with a civilian. You're shopping at the Piggly Wiggly and you hear a scream. You discover a man physically attacking a woman, bare-handed, with a knife, or whatever. You have reason to believe that if you don't intervene, he may kill her. You order the man to stop and he ignores you. In Kansas, I would be within my rights to use my personal defense weapon. I have the same rights and moral responsibilities in that situation as a sworn LEO.

In contrast, I do not have the lawful right to detain anyone, forcibly remove someone from their car or home because I suspect them of having committed a crime, and the like. Those are LEO-specific rights.

Where LEO's and civilians diverge is in the intervention. Convergence applies with the use of force. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to find anyone in LE that can tell me of any situation where an LEO is granted greater leniency in taking a human life than a lawful gun owner in the exact same situation.

Having said that, I have to agree with LB. The burglar posed no immediate threat to anyone in that scenario. The officer had no evidence to support his belief that the burglar possessed a weapon and was guaranteed to pose an immediate threat to anyone else. Was he following his "gut"? If so, none of us are safe. Vehicle burglary is not a capital crime, nor should it be. Neither is possession of a firearm, be it legal or otherwise. Only when a weapon is employed in the use of force does the need for lethal force arise, and we should all be hopeful that our LEO's have the training and foresight to consider that in their day to day work. If they don't (and even when they do), then they should absolutely be subject to the same standards as everyone else when they act poorly. It's the price of doing business when you accept the job, and a reasonable expectation by those of us you are sworn to protect. Agree that constantly second-guessing your judgment when under duress is one thing. Shooting at a fleeing person fifty feet away is something entirely different.

I would hope that this officer's actions would be thoroughly investigated and the fact that he is an LEO would be secondary in determining if his decision to shoot was lawful. In my opinion, it was not. Had he let the burglar escape unscathed, it wouldn't have been the end of the world. Investigate. File a report. Process the vehicle for evidence and follow the investigation. At worst, just another unsolved vehicle burglary among many.
But, in this case, it could have been the end of the world. At least, for the kid, and for his career.

I carry a lot. And I try to watch these videos and use them as learning opportunities by asking myself, "What if?" What if I came upon that same situation? Would I have the right to shoot? Hell no. No reasonable person would. Thus, neither should that officer.

Just my .02.

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"It is not the critic that counts; but the man in the arena; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows in the end of triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." T. Roosevelt.

Posts: 5114 | From: east of Great Falls | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530

Icon 1 posted January 24, 2019 02:39 PM      Profile for 4949shooter   Email 4949shooter         Edit/Delete Post 
This is the standard to which the officer will be judged:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_v._Connor

he Court then explained that, "As in other Fourth Amendment contexts... the "reasonableness" inquiry in an excessive force case is an objective one: the question is whether the officers' actions are 'objectively reasonable' in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation." The Court also cautioned, "The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight."

All that having been said, I would not have taken that shot myself given what we can see on video.

Posts: 2231 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 24, 2019 08:04 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure what the outcome was of the case you sighted, 49? Was it determined that the officer was reasonable in what he did, based on a guy walking into and out of a convenience store? I imagine he could have died and that situation almost pisses me off worse than just the situation when a cop kills a kid running down an alley. As gfar as that goes, I respectfully submit that I will kiss your ass if this cop is deemed reasonable use of force. There is something wrong unless this guy is tried for something like negligent homicide if not murder 1. I just don't get it, if cops think they can shoot a kid running away, some laws need to change.

Look,I'm not a radical. I'm on the side of law and order. But, I can think of at least two other prominent cases recently where a cop plugged somebody in the back while he was walking away. That has to be labeled WRONG, in no uncertain terms, not some wishy fucking concept like, he was there at the time and don't second guess him. Fuck that, I see it as legal murder under color of authority. I always put myself in the victims shoes and would like to be given the benefit of doubt, like I'm old and might get dizzy and disoriented, or something a little unusual that the policeman needs to understand that HE's THE ONE THAT ASKED FOR THIS RISKY JOB, and the other guy was just having a diabetic event. It's outragious to throw tha man in the squad car and break his fucking foot in the process!

You need to come up with a more sympathetic case, Amigo. And, I appreciate your input and your thoughts on the subject. If I understand you correctly? Now, don't go away mad because (I think) I disagree with your position!
Peace, bro.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26122 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 24, 2019 08:12 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Look, 49. You have to understand that this group is law abiding citizens, pay taxes and in most cases, don't have a record and as for me, I've never even come close to being arrested. So, you are dealing with conservative people that expect the police to protect them, not shoot them if things go sideways. I've never been in a friggin' jail and never sat in the back of a squad car and I'm 76 years old. I'm talking to you as a legit citizen, not some rabble rousing crusader. And, I will tell you this, I expect to be treated with respect by the police. Period.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ January 24, 2019, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26122 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530

Icon 1 posted January 26, 2019 05:08 AM      Profile for 4949shooter   Email 4949shooter         Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard,

I think you may have misunderstood, or at least skipped over part of my post.

The part I believe you skipped over I am quoting again:

quote:
All that having been said, I would not have taken that shot myself given what we can see on video.
Maybe this changes your impression somewhat?

As a professional, and I have been in this game for 30 years, I know that each and every police shooting in the United States is gauged to the standard of the above case. When this particular shooting is presented to a grand jury, and most likely is tried in court, the officer will be judged to this standard.

The evidence will come out in court.

Posts: 2231 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged
Semp
EXCLUSIVE member
Member # 3074

Icon 1 posted January 26, 2019 06:42 AM      Profile for Semp           Edit/Delete Post 
Based on the video, the cop was wrong. Period.

If he isn't prosecuted for this killing, I sure would like to know the reason why.

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There are no stupid questions... There are, however, a lot of inquisitive morons.

Posts: 164 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 26, 2019 09:32 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
49, I apologize! You are absolutely correct, I didn't even see that last statement? Can't figure out how that happened, but I appreciate your clarification and your correction of my mistake.

But, it's only logical, really. What is in the video cannot be any sort of rule or standard of what is reasonable action on the part of a police officer. I just can't understand how this man had a complete breakdown of behavior and in frustration started shooting at a non threat as he was running away. Boy, if he's allowed to get away with that, like somebody else said, that's "open season" on citizens.

You know, I think you should consider when you retire, moving someplace out west. You wouldn't believe the difference in attitude. Oh well, except for California, Oregon and Washington. But, other than that. lol

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26122 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged


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