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Author
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Topic: I'm that someone
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 15, 2018 06:15 PM
I recently saw a meme on Facebook that said, "I always wondered why someone didn't do something about that. Then, I realized that I was that someone."
Those who know me well know that I shut down my taxidermy and writing because of the amount of time, and the toll, my son's addiction issues, and daughter's and wife's medical problems were taking on me. Work has been my only refuge and, to say the least, life at home has been difficult. How our marriage has survived this, I don't know.
Anyway, quite out of the blue back in January, an idea began to form in the furthest recesses of my brain. An idea borne of all the stupid, dipshit, never-gonna-work bullshit ways the state of Kansas, following federal mandates, deals with addiction through the courts and the criminal justice system. By early February, I had the idea on paper.
Shortly thereafter, I ran into my State Representative at the local gun show and told him I needed to meet with him. He asked why and insisted that I give him the elevator version right there and then. He demanded that I send it to him immediately. So, I did.
Months went by and John was ass deep in the current legislative session, so I was patient. When the session ended, I immediately emailed him and asked him to coffee.
We met three weeks ago this past Friday and his response to my proposal was overwhelmingly positive. I received the same or similar responses from my boss whose wife works in state government and who, themselves, have endured an addict child. The local District Court Judge, who was recently appointed to the State Sentencing Commission, reviewed it and told me he was going to personally call our rep and suggest that I be given the chance to present my proposal to the State legislature. I reached out to the Director of Corrections Medicine for the State of Washington who not only liked my ideas, but sent me links to a couple relevant journal articles whose data supported my proposal, including a recently released 30-page report by Trump's Council of Economic Advisers who he said, "If I didn't know any better that your proposal was written before this was released, I'd have to think you built your proposal around their conclusions."
At coffee, John (we've been friends for over 30 years) told me he was so pleased with my proposal and felt it might be a way to deal with the problem here that he was going to make an appointment for me to meet the Chief Medical Officer for the State of Kansas - the guy that will determine how $100 million+ coming to the state of Kansas through a $13 billion opiate crisis management program of the Trump Administration will be spent because he feels mine is one of the best ideas they've seen and that I deserve full credit for what I wrote.
I just finished writing a cover letter to the CMO and it will go into the mail in the morning, including my proposal.
Everyone who has read it has the same reaction - "This could really work!"
Now, I'm no longer religious. In fact, I'm agnostic as hell and leaning to atheism because I've seen too much and endured too much to think that any god would put on my son, daughter and wife through what has happened to them. Better to just accept that we're in this alone. But, I won't turn down prayers and positive thinking for this proposal to meet with the favor of the Powers That Be. I've spent several months up to my eyeballs in this researching other programs, writing, and re-writing this packet of documents. A part of me thinks that maybe all my experience writing up to now was in preparation for this moment in time. And this specific project.
I decided that someone needed to do something. So, I am.
Wish me luck.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 15, 2018 08:09 PM
Best of luck!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted July 16, 2018 02:14 AM
More best of luck from here. I have had more than a couple friends that have died because of addictions and if your plan has any success at all it will be more than good.
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Support Communism and help destroy the United States of America ! VOTE DEMOCRAT. "In the end, they aren't coming after me. They are coming after you!" D.Trump
Posts: 636 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted July 16, 2018 04:07 AM
quote:
Now, I'm no longer religious. In fact, I'm agnostic as hell and leaning to atheism because I've seen too much and endured too much to think that any god would put on my son, daughter and wife through what has happened to them. Better to just accept that we're in this alone.
Not overly adherent to a specific religion either, but...
You might could interpret your family woes as a catalyst for bringing about a much needed change in approach for dealing with addicts? Just askin', would you have ever been motivated to focus your efforts to do that work, if it were not a direct response to help a loved one?
Believe in a single "god" or gods, or don't. But one thing I believe in is that we have been granted 'free will'. I also believe that actions have consequences...
Although you may justify forsaking god as a defense to your son's actions, it was your son's 'free will' to decide to take drugs, and continue to do so. Blaming "god" when it's convenient is not a valid argument, it's a deflection from the truth...
Just offering some perspective. Wishing you the best and commend you on your efforts to help your son, and others in the process!
[ July 16, 2018, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 16, 2018 04:58 AM
Best of luck in you endeavor Lance !
And thank you Fred well put we all have choices. I am not adherent to any religion but have an abiding faith in God. He has the handlebars I have the pedals !
[ July 16, 2018, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 16, 2018 06:08 AM
Be (all that) as it may; think about the Stalins and Hitlers of the world and consider what it would be like without the influence of Jesus Christ. When you think of morality and humanity, where would we be without his Devine Guidance?
Look, I'm not even a regular church goer anymore, but without the New Testament; there is every chance that the entire world could become, LORD OF THE FLIES.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
Member # 4177
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posted July 16, 2018 09:28 AM
Cdog, are you sure? Someone isn't guiding you in all of this.
It took such a great sadness and burdened to guide you?
When my brother was diving (5 yrs ago) his youngest asked me if he was really close to his grandmother. I told my nephew that his dad and grandmother were really close. The nephew told me his dad kept calling out I can't go yet I can't find my grandmother.
I was raised with the Bible and have read it since I was a kid. Not so much anymore. But we all need to have something to believe in and guide though dark times.
BIL 2 years ago shot up with synethic herion made 10 spells heart exploded. Whole family knew was just when could never get him to change his ways. Actually Obmo care cut him off his pain meds and he went for the mail order illegal stuff out of china. There was 5 people died in the Boise valley that fall from that crap same stuff call "Pink".
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another long hot smoky summer coming
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Semp
GOLD STAR MEMBER
Member # 3074
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posted July 16, 2018 11:39 AM
Good luck and I hope your project is successful. The opioid scourge is alive and well in KY and we could use some new ideas.
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Always remember: That court appointed psychiatrist is not your friend.
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted July 16, 2018 01:07 PM
Good luck Lance!
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 16, 2018 04:14 PM
Best of luck !!!
The whole country could benefit from some fresh ideas. It ain't just Kansas.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 16, 2018 06:32 PM
Thanks, all. I'm not going to get into any debates over religion or God or anything like that. I'm betting I've looked at this issue from multiple sides more than the Pope himself. What I have learned is that a lot of religious folks seem to think that they're the only people who care for their fellow man. That isn't true. Skeptics, agnostics and atheists just do the right thing for different reasons.
I have submitted my proposal to Dr. Ben Carson. Never heard back. Didn't expect to. Scourge is an understatement. I've asked a litany of folks if they know any meth addicts. The vast majority say "absolutely not!" to which I reply, "You'd be surprised."
Fact is, meth changes the way your brain works so that the user doesn't feel normal - and doesn't appear normal - unless they have meth in their system. A lot of folks are very subtle users. When they're in withdrawal, they get twitchy - when they are NOT presently on meth. Give them a "hit" and they settle right down. It takes a long time to reverse that damage. About 120 days completely clean and sober before they are beyond the period of greatest vulnerability. Sadly, nearly every rehab program allows for 30-90 days, most 30-45. They look okay but they are released and within a week, only to relapse.
I'll leave it at that, I guess. This is a topic I can stump on for hours, even more so than coyotes. The proposal I submitted was actually only 8 pages long, including tables and references. The statement accompanying it connecting it to current research and what we know as fact about dealing with addiction took an additional twelve pages.
The good news is that my son is my guinea pig. He went to prison for 59 days in early January. His last date of use was 12-12-17. Been clean and sober since. He spent last weekend in jail for 48 hours because his probation officer tested him and his pee was hot for meth. Turns out three other people that tested after him were dirty as well and they know they were clean. Except they went to the hospital and gave more pee where they proved they were clean. She wouldn't do that for my son.
I did some ass chewing via email (his PO hates me with a passion because I don't hesitate to call her out) and "taught" her that there are two forms of meth - L-methamphetamine, and D-methamphetamine. They are mirror images of one another at the molecular level - called stereoisotopes - and the effect they have in our bodies is completely different. L-meth is street meth, and illegal. D-meth is a metabolite of albuterol sulfate used in asthma inhalers. Many prescription respiratory meds will produce a positive piss test for meth because those tests can't tell the difference between the L- and D- forms. My son used his mother's inhaler the day before his UA so he could breathe and went to jail because of it. That's the sort of bullshit we've dealt with over and over, and illustrates the basis for my efforts - start treating addiction with corrective programs rather than punitive. You cannot and will not punish an addict to a cure. Never has worked, and never will.
My proposal captures the addict in the county jail, evaluates them to see if they're genuinely committed to recovery, then commits them to 2 months of intense rehabilitation followed by an additional six months of supervised work release in the community. At that point, they've been clean and sober for ~240 days, and when released from jail, they're required to enter an Oxford House or similar sober living house while under intensive supervision (probation) for another year with strict guidelines and rules to follow. If they can make it to the end of that year (20 months total), they have the option of release into the real world. Their final incentive is if they can make it to the fifth anniversary of their initial conviction, their felony conviction record will be either expunged or reduced to a misdemeanor at the discretion of the Secretary of Corrections, thereby regaining all their civil rights they forfeited when they were using. The entire proposal is built around incentives, opportunities and benefits that are there for the taking if they can just keep making the right decisions. In the end, for those who are successful, they learn that they do not have to be defined by a single bad decision in their youth and can move on with their lives.
Right now, we're estimating (based upon other aspects of the program) that for every $1 invested, we could see a reduction in long-term costs due to drug-related crimes to the community of as much as $20. This program would only have to result in a 2% reduction in recidivism to be cost-effective and totally pay for itself.
I guess I went on a walkabout on this stump anyway, huh?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted July 17, 2018 06:22 AM
quote:
Their final incentive is if they can make it to the fifth anniversary of their initial conviction, their felony conviction record will be either expunged or reduced to a misdemeanor at the discretion of the Secretary of Corrections, thereby regaining all their civil rights they forfeited when they were using.
All sounds great, up to that part.
Expunging records of prior felonies is not an incentive, it's another deflection. And, last time I checked, drug abuse ALONE is NOT a felony, so those charges likely would have stemmed from actual crimes committed while under the influence...
Again, goes back to taking responsibility for one's actions. Scrubbing the past record(s) of wrongdoing runs 180 degrees counter to that logic & acceptance. Minimizing the severity of crimes a felon has already been tried and convicted of, only serves to pave a pathway back toward that behavior...
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana
Bringing that up, as I surely can't be the only one who will find fault in your 'plan', so ya might wanna re-think that part?
Their final 'incentive' should be the same one they had from the start:
Acknowledge the past, accept responsibility, then get CLEAN and live a GOOD life...
Good luck & best wishes!
[ July 17, 2018, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 18, 2018 05:23 PM
last time I checked, drug abuse ALONE is NOT a felony, so those charges likely would have stemmed from actual crimes committed while under the influence...
You might want to check then. I don't know about elsewhere, but under Kansas law, simple possession of methamphetamine is a class 5 severity felony. The vast majority of felons in Kansas are due to simply buying or possessing methamphetamine. Then intent in making this like this was to deter people from having anything to do with meth. Not only did that not work, but now the state is flush with meth-abusing felons who no one will hire and, as a result of that - even if they're clean and sober for years - they aren't able to afford healthcare, are not able to support their dependents, and thus, are completely overwhelming the state's programs to the extent that there isn't enough money to help those who have a legitimate, non-drug medical need. Our problem here is meth, and we see heroin on the horizon. The only good thing about our current situation is that meth won't kill you flat out. Three months ago, our Sheriff's Department seized a block of fentanyl from a car on I-70 that weighed 25# - enough to overdose and kill the Dallas/ Fort Worth metroplex. A week later, another deputy stopped a car with four Hispanic males in it at 3 in the morning. One was a LT for a Mexican drug cartel. The trunk contained 14 fully auto assault rifles. This is in Kansas!
Something has to give somewhere.
My description above doesn't cover anywhere near every detail of my proposal. Expungement only applies to their original felony drug charge and no others, and this program is only available to non-violent drug users. If there are any charges, dismissed or pleaded out of, involving manufacture, trafficking or distribution, those people are not only disqualified from entering this program, but they go straight to prison.
The hard-ass approach only makes things worse in the long run, and there are people who are deserving of the court's mercy downrange. My neighbor is one of them. My son walked out of the house one night and left in his car. Neighbor asked me how he was doing. I told him he was struggling but doing okay and he told me that if he could make it, my son could, too. I looked at it and he tells me that there's something I don't know about him. He's been clean and sober for fifteen years, going on 16, from a meth addiction. I'd noticed that he bow hunts and uses a choke pole when trapping - no guns. It all fell together. This guy is now married, has four kids and a good job. He doesn't drink or smoke, one of the best neighbors I have, and always helps anyone who asks. There are a lot of people out there like him, and those people are being punished every day for the rest of their lives. And by proxy, so are we because we have to help support them by taking care of their families when they could be doing that.
At one time, there was no one more anti-druggy than me. Then, reality hit. My son used twice - he made the conscious decision to use two times - before his brain said he couldn't function without meth. That is exactly how insidious the drug is. Ever since, he's been trying to escape it.
You learn over time that a lot you do for someone you care about with an addiction only enables them, because you think you're helping them, you're making their life better, or you just don't want to deal with the drama today when you stand your ground.
At some point, you learn the three C's. Their using isn't your Choice to make. You cannot Change them. And, you cannot Control them.
They have to hit the proverbial "rock bottom" and believe me, the knowledge that, for a huge number of addicts, "rock bottom" is six feet down, you live in abject terror that you'll come home to find them dead, or dying. You actually get to a point where a part of you has pre-emptively come to terms with the fact that your son or daughter will die - they WILL die - and you'd just as well get used to the idea now while you can. Have you ever needed to sit down with your wife and actually plan for what we do when he dies from an overdose or suicide? I have. That's something that grounds you quickly.
Once they hit the rock, they either decide to turn their life around, or not. If they make that decision, they'll need a lot of help, and a lot of support. The process isn't a few weeks in rehab and life is all cheery. They will fight their addiction every moment for the rest of their life. They'll be forced to make the right decision every single second of every single minute of every hour, day, week, month and year for the rest of their life. Even if everything goes their way, the struggle will be overwhelming. Putting a scarlet "F" of their chest because they made a really bad decision in their life won't help. If the only person they hurt in doing so was themselves, there is no victim. You can go out on your front parking and hit yourself in the head with a hammer and it's perfectly legal. No state has a law against "Aggravated self battery". Drugs are a victimless crime, yet they're a felony. When I was in EMS, you could be riddled with illegal drugs in your blood stream, but that wasn't illegal. In your pocket? You're going to jail. In your blood? Meh. Times have changed.
We can either continue to address the growing problem punitively, as we've been doing for years, and insanely expect a different outcome each time, or we can re-write the entire approach to how we deal with addiction by creating opportunities for those who desperately want to get clean and sober and who cannot afford to do so on their own, or who do not have access to those services, by actually implementing corrective programs as part of our Corrections system.
Locally, an estimated 70% of young people between the ages of 15 and 24 are using meth to some degree. Nationally, according to just released figures from the Bureau of Justice, nearly 80% of people incarcerated in prisons enter with a drug or alcohol problem. Across the nation, corrections officials have determined that upwards of 75% of all drug abusers will come into contact with the justice system in any given year.
Today, we send them to jail or prison. In prison, they have compulsory rehab and, from the most effective and best programs, they have seen as high as a 17% reduction in recidivism. Factor in that 53% of those folks suffer from untreated mental health issues and the crisis is real.
In prison, drugs are everywhere. My son told me he had easier access to heroin while "in" than to meth on the outside. Once a week, unannounced, six guards in black tactical gear would surprise them with six Belgian mallaois (sp?) narcotics dogs and toss the entire dorm for drugs. Rarely found anything. When I met with my rep, he told me the Secretary of Corrections tried to tell him there wasn't a drug problem in prison, so he asked him why or how they went through so much Narcan then. The Secretary was shocked that he had pulled his records on that.
Locally, 90%+ of all crime is either drugs or related to the drug problem. Nearly all thefts, burglaries, assaults, and rapes involve either alcohol or drugs, either stealing property to pay for drugs, or behavior caused while under the influence. Unless the lesser charges are thrown out, my proposal doesn't apply to batterers, rapists, or the like. Non-violent offenders only.
If you are sentenced to state prison in this country, less than 10% of those entering will receive any form of treatment, although more than 50% qualify and need that help.
My son has been in both jail and prison for his addiction. In both cases, you and I have paid tax money for him to lay in bed, watch TV or play cards. Day after day after day.
On two occasions, they asked him if he would go to rehab. Of course, he said yes. So, they drove him a hundred miles away to an inpatient rehab for thirty days and released him in just 21 because they thought he was ready. That three week stint cost us around $10k per visit. At 21 days, or 30 days for that matter, they are in no way, shape or form detoxed enough to release them and expect them to stay clean. For my son, he averaged about 8 days before he relapsed. And was re-arrested for probation violations. Back to jail. Turns out that ALL the data today shows that it takes 120 days for a meth user's brain to heal enough to be able to function at a minimal level without meth, and even then, the cravings and physical symptoms are brutal. They come in waves. He can be fine one day, and having a really rough time the next. But, he's been clean and sober for seven months. Is he in the clear? hell no. Statistically, he'll relapse, and he'll probably go back to prison for it. The odds are not in his favor. And he flat out told me he'd kill himself before he went back to Lansing, and was serious about that. My only comfort is repeatedly telling myself that I'm not the one responsible for his decisions. But, I raised him. I was a scout leader, baseball coach, and never missed a football game. It wasn't enough. The guilt is unbearable at time.
Imagine living with that and doing nothing but telling them, "You made your bed, lie in it. For the rest of your life."
Something and someone has to blink here, and changes have to be made. As I said, after the second decision to use, addiction to meth and heroin become a very real medical problem and unless and until we address the need to treat them as such, we won't begin to fix the problem.
Will it be expensive? At first, it will look so. But, if effective programs are implemented correctly, and we can produce declines in recidivism rates over a five-year time line, the return on those dollars invested will be worth it. The losses are more than just throwing $10k at a private rehab facility two or three times for each offender and getting no results. That has to stop.
You have to factor in how reducing drug abuse will result in reduced property crimes from users stealing your shit to sell for drugs. You'll see reduced costs for social programs because people who were previously incarcerated are now able to support themselves and their dependents rather than relying on the state for that. You'll see better economic positioning for these people who will be working rather than sitting in jail. You'll see a reduction in input costs for state prisons. You'll see the counties and state recovering court costs, public defender costs, and fines because money earned in the work-release portion of this program goes to the state to cover those debts - debts that often go unpaid.
I choose not to just go on paying these peoples' way because they're felons forever. I choose to create opportunities for correction and know that every single one who makes it to that five years deserves the right to vote again. Every single person that can be helped by a program like my proposal will be one less person - plus every person that relies upon them - that we have to support.
My proposal won't be easy. They'll have to toe the line for five years or play hell for screwing up. This is by no means a hand out for anyone. Will it help a lot of people? Maybe not, but what we're doing now isn't working for anyone, and it's costing us a King's ransom as we shovel tax dollars down a bottomless hole.
And people are dying.
At least the data to date shows that when you do something like this, the return on your investment is in the black.
I'm betting that in your state, meth is a felony, too. My Rep acted like that was a federal mandate.
[ July 18, 2018, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted July 19, 2018 07:02 AM
Semantics, but I meant the action of ingesting drugs is not a felony. But, yeah...
Possessing more than 500mg of certain 'hard' substances is a Class D felony. That just further reinforces what a stupid azz decision it was to take those kinda drugs. Cannot overstate that...
Anyhoo, if that dumb azz life choice resulted in a Class D felony, it'd be a 'first offense'. Therefore, very likely that the accused's attorney would seek an ACD. Which is "an abbreviation for adjournment and contemplation of dismissal". Whereby, the accused is given a path to remain 'clean', with the possibility of criminal record being expunged. So, that "bonus" is already in place...
But, if THAT method worked, then it'd work to solve the problem, right then and there...
But, it doesn't.
So, what you have are repeat felon offenders, becoming ever more dependent on 'the system' to solve the problems that stem directly from their own lousy life choices.
So, please explain how 'expunging' records is of any benefit, after the criminal drug addict has already very likely blown that chance, their first time around the 'system'?
What I'd like to see is a program for drug addicts to pay for their own treatment, and not be a burden to those who had the self restraint to not go down that path.
In effect, WE (law abiding American taxpayers) are being punished for someone else's fuck up(s).
Why the fuck should WE have to subsidize that?
Rhetorical, as I do I do acknowledge the necessary evil. But, it's fucking BULLSHIT.
SOOOoooo....
Given the fact that we DO subsidize 'treatment' for a self imposed "condition" I sure as heck wanna know EXACTLY who those people are!
Whether they're my neighbor, my employee, my car mechanic....doesn't matter. My tax dollars paid to fix their fuck up(s), but then they (you) wanna be able to "hide" that, after the fact, by 'expunging' records???
Yeah...NO
[ July 19, 2018, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 19, 2018 07:31 AM
Some heavy shit, Lance.
I just cannot relate. I do not understand why somebody cannot avoid something that is hurting them, the "just say no" attitude.
What is the incentive for somebody to do drugs, in the first place? I understand weed and alcohol but what sort of euphoria does one get from Meth? That (apparently) they cannot do without?
I kind of agree with Fred, but i'm also a little sympathetic. A little, because it's so self inflicted and unnecessary.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 19, 2018 08:32 PM
My Doctors had me taking 20mg of oxy every four hours I went through withdrawals twice I took myself off and to this day I take one thyroid pill each day that's it ,that shit is pure poison brought to you by the medical profession !
[ July 19, 2018, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 20, 2018 02:14 AM
I don't have a dog in this hunt but it's pretty easy to see that what we're doing now …….. it ain't working so good.
So..... if there's an alternative that rewards good behavior / punishes bad behavior I would have to say try it and see what happens. Worst we can do is fail and we're doing that anyway.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7579 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 20, 2018 04:48 AM
I truly hope Mr. Carson responds he seems like a good man , that could help you with this !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 22, 2018 06:56 PM
I would like to see addicts pay their own way and cover the cost of treatment as well, but I called four different facilities for my son and a 120-day stay for meth was right around $25,000 for 60 days, not including aftercare. That's a lot of money for most people, and if you're a convicted felon that no one will hire even if you've been clean/sober for a couple years, it just ain't happening. As I said, something has to give to break the standoff.
We can keep on keeping on and continue to pay the for-profit rehabs who chuck them out before they're ready just so we can repeat the same process again in a month or two. And, in doing so, we can continue to bask in the unseen expenses of the drug problem as well. Things like loss of productivity while men and women are incarcerated. State and federal dollars being used to pay for the expenses of their kids, their wives, their dependents. The costs to victims who suffer from related crimes like theft, assault, rape, and the like. Overdose deaths. The costs to society are exponentially far and away above what we see in just the costs of in-patient treatment.
I've been in a couple "dialogues" about whether drug use is a decision or a disease. The uneducated and unwashed - mostly people with no first-hand experience in the issue - plant their flag on one or the other, usually the first. Only after you see the progression of meth addiction do you understand it starts as a decision and very, very rapidly becomes a disease, inasmuch as we can define a disease as a physiological disorder over which the sufferer has no control.
For my son, two times is what it took for him to be addicted. Again, L-methamphetamine - street meth - physically alters the structures of the synaptic junctions in the brain of the user. Whereas nerve signals are often assisted across the gap between the end of one nerve fiber and the next by neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine - and those reaction sites are very molecularly specific as to what is allowed to land and bind onto that site - L-meth physically alters the site so that it will no longer accept serotonin or dopamine, and will only allow L-methamphetamine to land and react there.
At this point, the user is no longer in control, no more than you or I can go without insulin or oxygen. When the levels of meth in their system fall, they experience brutal and often times painful withdrawal symptoms. Their brains begin to malfunction. Everything from loss of muscle control, suicidal ideologies, hallucinations (both visual and auditory), uncontrollable emotions like rage and anger. That's when you see a "tweaker" twitching and acting crazy - when they're NOT using. Once they get some meth in their system, the meth molecules occupy their reaction sites and their brain cells are once again able to communicate with one another. The sores, rotting teeth, and the like are just side effects.
Once that damage is done, it takes time - years - for the body to rebuild and repair things. At first, it's rough as hell. At about 120-days, things have gotten far enough along that they stand a better chance of recovery with proper treatment.
The question is just how do we get to that 120 days? We can blame and stigmatize them like we've been doing. We can punish them every day by refusing them access to some sort of care. We can continue to pay for-profit rehabs to take our money and release them at 21-30 days and then act surprised when that fails repeatedly. We can jail them, or imprison them and just let them lay around all day detoxing and wasting tax dollars. That works in the short-term, but they'll be released and because they've been just laying around, they won't have the training or skills necessary to recognize when they're heading down the same road again. And, they will.
I've seen the phrases "Warehousing people" as an opposition to in-facility drug treatment. I resent that phrase because it infers that there are people being held in jails and prison who don't really belong there. My son will tell you that he's earned every day he's spent incarcerated and that he has no one to blame but himself for what's happened in his life. But, he'll also explain to you that there comes a point where folks like him need help to provide them with the skills and treatment they cannot provide for themselves.
Again, we keep on doing the same thing we're doing now, or we can look long and hard at all the various programs in place around the country for treating drug addiction and develop a strategy going forward that incorporates the most successful ideas while defunding those that just don't work. That's what I've done in my program proposal, except that I had the idea formulated without the benefit of knowing what I know now from all the literature that has been sent to me since I got it done.
Quoting Dr. Marc Stern, Medical Director for the State of Washington Department of Corrections, one of my sources for this proposal, concerning treating offenders while in prison and jail,
“It is likely that most of the opiate-addicted individuals in our community will pass through our jails this year (a very rough calculation for Washington State suggested that nearly 75% would become justice-involved)”, further concluding that, “treating drug addiction (inside the jails) is not just inexpensive; it’s cost saving.”
His next point is what caught my eye: “for every $1 the community invests in drug treatment in our jails, the community – not just the jails – will realize a $5 savings. We have these individuals in our jails for a short but critically important window in their lives. They are “captives” in a place where they can reach sobriety, are safe, and provided with an opportunity to contemplate a new direction. Community and public health leaders should be knocking at the jail door pleading with jail administrators to allow them to take advantage of this window.”
In a brief follow up message, Dr. Stern amended the statements in his article and told me that under certain circumstances, the savings for each public dollar invested in rehabilitating offenders in jail could be as high as $20.
You seem to suggest that the offender can simply just decide to stop using. That isn't going to happen; it's physiologically impossible. But we know that there are certain ways to address this issue. You're concerned that your tax dollars are being wasted on these reprobates. Understood and if that were the case under all circumstances, I would agree. But it isn't. I understand and share your anger, but it's far too complicated an issue to just stomp my feet and vent my anger.
Imagine, if the figures above are anywhere near correct and considering ALL the costs - both seen and unseen by the public - that we could invest $1 million in this sort of program which would then produce a reduction in long-term costs associated with the drug crisis of $5-20 million dollars, whether that's tax money or money right out of your pocket?
Now, take it another step - $100 million in Kansas alone, reducing costs by $500 million to $2 billion over time? Do the math with the $13 billion earmarked by Trump to deal with this. As is so often the case, most of those savings will never be seen because the costs won't happen in the presence of successful treatment. People won't die. People won't be killed. People who were or who might have become addicted won't.
Or, we just keep doing as we're doing and hope and pray for different results each time. Uh-huh.
Your point that an attorney can get the charges reduced or dismissed in favor of outside programs that encourage offenders to stay clean just isn't true anymore. Again, I'm in Kansas and here, the courts offer no leeway or wiggle room. You have meth? Life as you know it is over. It is not deterring anyone and therein lies a huge problem.
My objective is to stop acting like the problem doesn't exist. It does, and it's overwhelming the system. When you have 70%+ of 15-24 year olds involved to some degree with serious drugs like meth in your home town, the problem is out of control and you have no choice but to deal with it or watch an entire generation be ravaged. You can blame it on what- or whoever you want, or you can deny that the problem even exists, but that does not make the problem any less severe.
My proposal seeks to implement a fiscally responsible and cost-effective way to deal with drug addiction by providing addicted users with a legitimate road to recovery at a reasonable cost, to them and to those entities in government charged with managing the crisis, by replacing failing and ineffective programs currently in use with a new program borne of those methods that have been demonstrated to be effective and successful. We cannot afford to NOT do something about this, morally or economically.
Unfortunately, I rec'd an email from my representative Wednesday night that explains why I haven't heard from him since we met three weeks ago. He and his wife went to Europe for their trip of a lifetime and his wife fell and was seriously injured in Spain. She's been in the hospital there for two weeks and will remain there for another 2-3 before the drs will let her fly home.
I'm actually pleased that so many of you have no first-hand experience with this issue. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. But, I've been given an opportunity and the means to do something and everyone and everything I've reviewed, read, and discussed this proposal with see it as a very valid idea, and these folks are judges, doctors and addictions experts. My son is my motivation. Despite his addiction, I still love him and couldn't live with myself if I just denied that the problem was real.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted July 22, 2018 09:20 PM
Drug addiction...particularly meth and opiods... I'm like 50 years old now...my best friend since childhood has been doing meth and other shit since high school. He's a functioning addict. He still works his ass off but has lost everything else in life..family, house etc. His teeth are starting to go and his body is too. He has lasted a long time...I really love the guy though. We had a lot of good times hunting and fishing together but I eventually had to distance myself, as I have done with so many others that get on that shit. I spent many years trying to help a couple of them but there's only so much you can do before it starts affecting your own life. I have a friend who's mom got hooked on pain pills after a car wreck and after a few years of abuse she is permanently damaged. Doctors hand that crap out like candy.
You know..Im a pretty boring guy. I have drank a lot of whiskey in my day and raised a lot of hell doing it. I have never had the desire or the balls to do anything more than that..and let me tell you...if I wanted too..it was all readily available ...anytime and anything you can think of. While most everyone I knew would keep partying 24/7, living that lifestyle and getting hooked on harder shit..my desire was to go hunting or fishing....I have always said those 2 things prolly saved my life....but still, I just never had the desire to do drugs of any kind regardless. I was never that adventuress.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 23, 2018 12:15 AM
I don’t know much about addiction. My son drinks beer and skoal. The snuff started in Little League. Filthy, addicting stuff.
With the beer he’s functional I guess is the word?
Anyway, just responding to the above post, I’m not disputing what he says about doctors handing out opioids like candy. However, that’s not my personal experience. I have never done drugs but I do take prescription medication for my back. Both morphine and norco, the 325-10 dosage is for what’s called breakout pain. I’m very careful with it the past 5 or 6 years. But, not in my experience do they pass it out like candy. I can only get 30 supply and must pick it up in person and show ID. Also, they screen with blood tests just to make sure.
Actually, it is annoying and I know the doctors are scared or maybe a better word is intimidated. For me, they definitely are not handing this stuff out like candy. My plan is with Kaiser, maybe that’s the difference? But I get the impression that they certainly take this medication very seriously. And I do too. In fact, I don’t take what’s prescribed. A month’s worth of Norco lasts me 3 months. But, I am addicted to the morphine you might say because if I go two days without, I get withdrawal symptoms. And that is easy to do because of their strict policies, as far as ordering in a timely manor and dealing with delays and weekends, I have been out, and concerned. So this is the price I pay for their nervousness, it does piss me off occasionally, and needlessly in my opinion.
I can also attest that the morphine is a wonder drug. Before I started taking it I was looking at going under the knife because I really couldn’t stand up for more than 5 minutes. I’m no where near a walking zombie but I do have to limit alcohol. One drink is my limit. But I’ve never been very interested in booze, I got that shit out of my system when I was in the Army.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 23, 2018 05:05 AM
Trust me they do hand it out Like candy, I could only get a thirty day supply but that was any time I wanted. Had a friend now deceased that had a pump in his abdomen that delivered morphine to a nerve in his back never in his System but directly on the nerve seemed like a good alternative. Out here where I live we have two kinds of people salt of the earth and tweekers Its a shame they live in tent communities way out in the middle of nowhere And steal anything not nailed down when you see one in town its very obvious what's going on something needs to change. Thank you Lance for being that guy !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 23, 2018 07:23 AM
I bumped into a guy I've known since high school at the Kaiser pharmacy. Actually, he recognized me, but he was behind me. He is married to my sister-in-law, who divorced my wife's brother 30 some years ago. Anyway, he SHOULD know me? But he asked me my name 3 times! He was there to pick up his Norco. He told me he takes 8 a day, the "controlled" dosage. I never even asked him why he takes it? I should call Kathy and find out how Al is doing because he don't look too good to me? Nancy told me quite a few years ago that Kathy told her that Al don't "put out". I guess, like they say; getting old ain't for sissies?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted July 25, 2018 05:08 AM
quote:
I've been in a couple "dialogues" about whether drug use is a decision or a disease. The uneducated and unwashed - mostly people with no first-hand experience in the issue - plant their flag on one or the other, usually the first. Only after you see the progression of meth addiction do you understand it starts as a decision and very, very rapidly becomes a disease, inasmuch as we can define a disease as a physiological disorder over which the sufferer has no control.
Oh please, spare us. "Unwashed", lol. I see you've tried to elevate your opinion above scrutiny. Ok, lets go with that, then...
You just typed it, yourself: "it starts as a decision..."
I contended that what happens after the "decision" is NOT disease, it is a CONSEQUENCE.
Please, prove that incorrect, from your lofty perch of knowledge.
Then, ponder these questions:
Have you ever known anyone to "decide" to give themselves cancer?
How bout a stroke? Do you know of any person who actively "decided" to debilitate themselves via having a stroke??
What about MS, cerebral palsy, or any myriad of other physical 'diseases' or deficiencies that afflict us?
Are those afflictions any LESS deserving of "treatment" than a self serving drug addict is???
All that preaching you're doing can't deflect from, or explain away, the fact that drug addicts make a conscious decision to ruin their own lives.
Given that fact, why are those afflicted with disease(s) beyond their own control any less deserving of such extended care & treatment? Are those lives any less worthy of saving?
Who's supposed to pay for their treatment & rehabilitation?
Please explain...
BTW, I am not without sympathy for those who must deal with bad decision making. But the notion of labeling that as a "disease" is a fucking slide, if I ever saw one.
[ July 25, 2018, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 25, 2018 08:56 AM
Fred, you get debate points.
I like to think that I'm a sympathetic person, I have compassion although I'm not a particularly soft touch.
The drug question bugs the hell out of me. Fred says, and I agree, taking drugs is a decision. They talk about gateway drugs like weed. I don't know? If you are willing to ingest a foreign substance, whether it be corn flakes or polonium, I guess it proves that you don't give a shit about your health, your body or what anybody else thinks.
You have expert advice, this stuff can kill ya. Yet, you trust your asshole buddy that tells you it isn't harmful and it will give you a buzz or something? I have never understood the people that are always looking for some new mind blowing experience. I'm scared to death of illegal drugs, which are by definition, illegal and dangerous, potentially lethal. What's hard to understand about this? Your best friend gives you a joint, your best friend now gives you cocaine and by next week, you trust him when he offers you crack....I mean, WTF? Go ahead, what could go wrong? Well first of all, they say that they mix this shit with rat poison, and other things to double the volume and reduce the potency. Except, there are no controls, one day you get 80 octane and next week, it's 86: whatever?
But this isn't like trying orange marmalade for the first time. Heroin has consequences, not least of which is a dependency. Now, when you run out of financial resources, these people move right to theft and prostitution, armed robbery whatever it takes to get the funds to buy more drug. Why these facts are not obvious to people, I do not understand? EVERYBODY has heard about drugs and consequences.
Therefore, I'm kind of a hard ass, not very sympathetic of those wretched folks that dodged all advice and made the decision to take a dangerous substance for the thrill because their life is so dull and meaningless.
Yes, I have some compassion after they get themselves all fucked up, but nobody held them down and stuck the needle in their arm. Every step of the way, they made decisions and now we should look at it as a disease, and this requires forgiveness and society must make the effort to rehabilitate. $
What was that movie about the schmuck in prison in Turkey? I think there are a few countries that take a hard line with drugs. A while ago, big stink when Indonesia ( maybe?) Executed a couple nice looking Australian citizens for trafficking in drugs. Cruel but it does tend to cut down on those problems. I think even China executes many drug offenses.
All I can say is, Lance, good luck. But, even after the 23/30 day cure doesn't work and the 6 month cure doesn't work and they keep making these stupid decisions. There is something fucked up in the brain when they know with absolutely certainty that one little taste and they are right back, an addict. And yet we fret these people, spend a fortune on rehabilitation and these people know that the first time something doesn't go their way, they reach for the comfort of their drug of choice. It's so damned insane, keep trying to help people that apparently don't want help? Because of their decisions....but it's a disease.
Well, here's a thought. Keep the assholes in prison. Yes, not foolproof but it's very hard to become addicted in the joint. Maybe rehabilitation is not possible? So, to keep them from dying and keep them from stealing, keep them locked up.
beats me, but I'm not real close to this stuff. When simple reasoning and advice don't work, I'm out of ideas. Lock them up. I'm tired of hearing about it. Addiction for anything is complicated, gambling, smoking, Internet, all of it. It's impossible to force people to do stuff they don't want to do.
End of rant!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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