The New Huntmastersbbs!


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The New Huntmastersbbs!   » Member forum   » Lets hear your honest opinion on this...

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Lets hear your honest opinion on this...
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29

Icon 1 posted June 28, 2017 06:43 AM      Profile for Lone Howl   Email Lone Howl         Edit/Delete Post 
...do you agree or disagree with being able to take your own life legally?

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/06/28/111-terminally-ill-end-lives-under-new-california-law.html

--------------------
When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.

Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted June 28, 2017 08:55 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
First of all, I have an objection on religious grounds. I don't believe in suicide.

Aside from the religion, blowing your head off seems a personal choice that we cannot do much about. But, dispensing life ending drugs to terminal people is something else, altogether.

I can understand pain medication and enduring as long as the Supreme Being allows. But, that is a long ways from taking a drug intended to end life.

I also have no real problem with Capital Punishment, as Biblically speaking, eye for an eye, etc. Some people really are too evil to continue living a life sentence.

But, again, we can't help it if people jump off a bridge or step in front of a train. But, creating a system where society will judge candidates on their merits as to how hopeless is their (terminal) situation. It's like many other questions; who is elected the decider? Who assumes God powers? Do they believe that they are compassionate?

Many people think that perhaps it is charitable to end the life of a Down's Syndrome child. The NAZI's had an idea that Jews were subhuman and therefore, society would benefit by their removal via Zyklon B and ovens. And, no doubt, they believed they were doing a good deed for the rest of us.

Anyway, just as birth is a natural thing, so is death, and murder is the highest crime.

I think Assisted Suicide would be highly favored by Liberals. There's a message there.

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31275 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602

Icon 1 posted June 28, 2017 10:37 AM      Profile for booger   Email booger         Edit/Delete Post 
Up until my in-laws, my only experience with the death of someone close was exactly 40 years ago this month when my dad died of a heart attack. He was basically here one day and gone the next…no suffering, just gone.

My mother in law passed in 2013. She was diagnosed with cancer in July, and passed in September, almost 60 days to the date of the discovery of the tumor. She didn’t endure treatments, but was made comfortable for those last two months. The last 11 days of her life were brutal to me. My wife stayed by her bed 24/7 for those last days. She lapsed into a coma about five days prior to her passing.

Based on my experience of seeing her die by degrees, I can sure see why people would choose the ‘Kevorkian’ method. I am hoping she didn’t suffer much while in the coma.

My father in law suffered a massive heart attack and lived 7 days after that. The goofy thing is that he had NO pain, just heaviness in his chest. The doctor said there is a very small percentage of people that have heart attacks with no pain…I think it was a Divine blessing for him. He and I were as close as I was to my dad, and I still tear up when I think of visiting with him that last week of his life. We had several conversations and he told me he was ‘ready to go’.

With that said, I am thinking the assisted suicide crowd is thinking more about the ones that have to watch their loved one die rather than the patient?

A very important part of living on this earth is the fact we are all going to die, and have to watch those close to us leave this earth. Part of the lesson of living is getting used to that and dealing with it.

--------------------
If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan

Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted June 28, 2017 08:37 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
A slippery slope.
For someone that has lost quality of life or has extreme pain issues and can make a rational choice, it should be their choice.
However;
Someone who's mind is weak and has an illness that is eating up the inheritance with medical bills getting pressured to 'do the right thing' by relatives..............not so good.
And, once you let that Genie out of the bottle, how long before the government gets involved 'in the interest of keeping health care costs down' ???
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all of that.

--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7488 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted June 28, 2017 09:23 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
See, that's the problem. Just as soon as some compassionate do gooder writes a Bill, Liberals will take over and have so many rules that it will make the IRS envious. I wouldn't want the government setting up the conditions and measuring just how much pain is too much to bare and who has the desire but falls short on some technicality. I'd rather have it all informal and a surprise.

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31275 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted June 29, 2017 04:35 AM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
It's a bad idea ! There should never be a law it's a personal choice and should be left that way.
It's easy to see how screwed up things could get if the gubmint gets involved , I want them out of my life as much as possible in all matters !

--------------------
Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494

Icon 1 posted July 04, 2017 06:26 PM      Profile for Moe           Edit/Delete Post 
My Mother in Law was 85 when she decided to opt for doctor assisted suicide here in Oregon. Not a single doctor attended the process which took 2 1/2 days. Her entire family was there.

Helen was in constant pain and living on Oxycodone in large quantities. In the final hours she was given massive doses of Morphine.

At first I was against doctor assisted suicide. I didn't think that people should involve physicians in the administration of death but doctors are individuals and as such can refuse to participate.

After watching cancer destroy a close friend while I was working back east I'm now not so sure. At one point he begged me to get him a gun. Of course I refused. He was a skeleton with huge eyes and covered with skin when he died.

--------------------
I snatch kisses. And vice versa.

Posts: 593 | From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2013  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 04, 2017 06:41 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, there will be unfortunate individuals slowly dying, just like always. In other words, it's been going on a long time and I don't see where familiarity with specific cases should cause us to alter policies centuries in the making.

To repeat, humans have been adverse to assisted suicide for millenniums plus. Suddenly, our more enlightened progressives need the government to get involved, and we all know that means Bureaucrats will have a field day with thousands of pages of regulations on who gets to die and when.

For me, it's a form of playing God and I cannot countenance it.

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31275 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted July 05, 2017 07:24 AM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
As a theistic agnostic, I've pretty much taken God out of the equation when it comes to making what most would call moral decisions. I've discovered that even atheists have an abiding sense of right and wrong, despite lacking the selfish motivation of being nice only to save their own bacon from going into the fires of hell. I've seen many, many instances in EMS of conditions of the human experience that were "worse than dying". For me, if there's one thing I own, and that is exclusively mine, it's my life, and it only makes sense that doctors should be required to oversee end of life treatments, aka assisted suicide, because they know better than anyone else which medications will affect the outcome the quickest and with the least amount of suffering. The same reason that I believe that doctors should be allowed to prescribe medical marijuana, yet they cannot in many states despite being able to prescribe and monitor far more powerful synthetic opioids.

Doctors know how different agents affect the neurological system and how the body perceives the affects of these drugs as far as controlling pain, conscious awareness, and basilar life functions such as cardiac and respiratory functions. Better to have them overseeing the process than some Regular Joe who thinks he or she is just doing the right thing, despite having no training.

I have a hard time believing that the merciful God I was taught about as a child would force his children to endure the kind of suffering I've seen in many patients as they leave this life for whatever happens next. Seems awfully convenient that bad behaviors can be handily dismissed as "free will" as a matter of convenience when trying to find answers to how God could ever let some things happen. Those of strong faith cite so-called miracles as evidence of God. I see those same feats as simply being examples of concepts and science we don't yet understand. After all, 300 years ago, there were many, many people who would have looked upon turning on a flashlight as being an act of God and a miracle. Many so-called acts of God from that era are now taught as early as the first grade as facts of science.

As to the death penalty, I'm generally opposed to it, but not for reasons of morality or religious convictions. You have a guy that's committed a heinous murder. We think he needs to burn in hell. The choices are execution or life in a deep hole, alone. If the guy is religious, he prays for forgiveness and, according to my Sunday School teachers, God forgives him his transgression and POOF, he's good to go when we do put him down. Gates of heaven, punishment over.

Same guy is a non-believer. Throwing the switch is, for him, literally throwing the switch. Lights out. One moment he's suffering in prison. Next moment - nothing. Suffering over. When faced with the certainty of life in a cage versus a pretty good chance that whatever the state does ends his suffering, you're doing him a favor, as he sees it.

In both scenarios, the punishment is terminated and the guy has essentially gotten away without paying any real price.

Life in prison? Take a tract of land and bore large silo-like holes, forty feet deep, with retractable tops at ground level. Smooth walls and just enough furniture to accommodate sleeping. For an hour a day, roll the roof back to show the sky. Beyond that, fluorescent lights and nothing more. Leave them there with their 3 hots and a cot until nature takes them. At least then we can rest assured that some sort of punishment was meted out.

I'll fight to the death for someone's right to worship whatever God they choose, even if it's no God at all. I don't challenge or argue the existence of God and firmly believe that if that belief set is where you find comfort and sustenance, then it's a right to which you are entitled and I encourage you to do so. But, I simply cannot reconcile the world today with the existence of any real omnipotent being when what you see as God, I see as science, physics, biology, etc.. As a theistic agnostic, my position is that I don't necessarily believe that there is no God, and I'm certainly open to any evidence that there is. I just haven't seen it yet.

--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
Member # 4177

Icon 1 posted July 05, 2017 07:45 AM      Profile for earthwalker           Edit/Delete Post 
Wow what a can of worms.
Having lost my dad(bladder/kidney cancer) in 2012 then mom(COPD) went end Jan of 2013 and my brother went first part of March 2013( MS). Then a year later a really close cousin went with pancreatic cancer. Then in 2015 lost my MIL to old age and all the stuff that comes with that and BIL Oct 2016.
Everyone of them till the day they died were still fighting and wanting to live. I don't believe in it even after all I've went through in the last 5 years. But I haven't walked in a someones shoes that is terminally ill.

--------------------
another long hot smoky summer coming

Posts: 1103 | From: Intermountain region | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 05, 2017 11:22 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well Lance,

Without any trouble at all, I can see holes in your theories that Jesus could drive a truck through. I see goodness and charity in people in stark contrast to others that are rotten and evil.

In the first place, you know the beasts have no morality, only man seems to have a conscience. Now, where did that come from; evolution? I see humanity as proof that there might be a hereafter, otherwise, where did all the decency and civility come from?

You know, even savages have a moral compass. Yeah, they might offer a virgin sacrifice every once in a while, but most of them still respect their mother, and why would that be?

If man was just another creature, with no communicative skills other than huffing and snorting, would civilization have progressed beyond a termite mound? You might think our ability to think and create is just the luck of evolution?

All of the positive traits in humans, (to me) says that there must have been, must be some Divine Guidance. Man isn't just an arbitrary species. Whereas you may think we are nothing more than a smart monkey, I don't think we got where we are, just because of an opposable thumb.

You know, it's been said there are no atheists on their deathbed.

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31275 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316

Icon 1 posted July 07, 2017 03:21 PM      Profile for DanS           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
...do you agree or disagree with being able to take your own life legally?
I agree

[ July 07, 2017, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]

--------------------
futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis

Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!

Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted July 08, 2017 04:39 AM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
Well said Leonard !

--------------------
Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 08, 2017 06:36 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you, Paul

As far as Dan getting back to the original question....

As long as we have the means, it seems to me, it is not preventable. And, I'm OK with that amount of freedom even if I find the action reprehensible. The people that take their own life have no idea the effect it has on those left behind. It's a terrible burden. And, extremely selfish. Speaking in terms of "not terminal", people suffering from depression, etc.

I'm against it but of course, as long as people have pills or a weapon or the nerve to jump off a bridge, then SO BE IT. But, don't expect me to forgive, or understand, because I think it's a coward's way out.

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31275 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102

Icon 1 posted July 08, 2017 07:56 AM      Profile for Dave Allen           Edit/Delete Post 
Looks like Oregon has a method to prevent suicide ?
http://www.ktvb.com/news/politics/ore-lawmakers-pass-bill-to-take-guns-from-people-deemed-danger-to-self-others/454886400

Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 08, 2017 08:58 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
And the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
How long before 'a concerned neighbor' is included in the list of those who may petition the court.
Where does it end ??
With the clerk at the Quickie-Mart who fears he may be robbed by the guy with the NRA bumper sticker ????

--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7488 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted July 08, 2017 09:39 AM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
Anytime some one days there ought to be a law I run the other way we need common sense and a world of decent humans not more laws.

--------------------
Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 08, 2017 09:42 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
That's what you can expect from Liberals, and especially in Oregon. Virtually anybody can have a concern, whether they completely misunderstand the situation or not.

Taking a man's guns is serious. Like ko ko said, what's next, a clerk in the Circle K thinks the NRA sticker is threatening? I am extremely opposed to these laws.

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31275 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102

Icon 1 posted July 08, 2017 01:45 PM      Profile for Dave Allen           Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed Leonard. Laws like this could get out of hand real quick !!

The Gov't shouldn't be involved in our business period. If someone decides to end their own life. They will figure out a way to do it.

I don't agree with suicide @ all. I understand big time problems & the temptation. Fact is we were born by Gods grace. It's not up to us, too take ourselves out of the equation.

As mentioned, terminal stuff. Dunno ? it's not for me to judge.

Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted July 10, 2017 08:09 PM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, LB. I've seen a lot of people die, and not all were begging God for forgiveness. Many were very comfortable with the idea because they were just tired of being in pain with no chance of relief or just plain tired of living. I would agree that the process, if legalized, should involve a process to make sure that the patient and their closest loved ones understood all the ramifications. At the same time, if we own nothing else in this world and in this life, shouldn't our being alive be ours and ours alone? No one owns me, so no one has a right to tell me if I should have to live through immense suffering if there is no chance, given current technology, of resolving the medical problems.

As far as good and evil being something other than evolution, nope. I have, for a very long time, considered all aspects of behavior to be rooted in physiology, both from the brain, the neurological and endocrine systems of our bodies. Aside from the occasional quirk one picks up from their parents or friends, for me, nature eclipses nurture in the long run.

Just this month, in Scientific American, is a very compelling piece looking at the parenting traits of two distinctly different species of mice. By messing with their genetic makeup, the researchers were able to elicit the other group's behavior in individuals. You'd have to read the study results to understand, and you won't because you argue the validity of science, but the results are compelling, nonetheless. Fact is, I firmly believe that we inherit our behavioral profile in our DNA from our ancestors. Occasionally, something goes awry and changes occur. Just prior to stopping by here, I was collecting information for one of my daughter's doctors we will be seeing tomorrow concerning a relatively new test to determine new treatments for her OCD. It's called the Campbell Test, through Moleculera Labs at the University of Oklahoma.

It was created after a lot of very deeply scientific biotech research into the causes of such psychiatric disorders as OCD (which my daughter has), tics, certain forms of autism, as well as a host of other neuropsychological conditions. Their research has found that kids with no other genetic predisposition to OCD are developing the disorder as a result of infection from certain forms of strep bacteria, i.e., strep throat, ear infections. The disorder itself is called PANDAS.

As the research progressed, they found a number of other causal factors, including meningitis, which my daughter had just prior to her becoming OCD. We think she was exposed to something from swimming in a salt water pool in Branson on vacation, but didn't have the information we needed at the time of diagnosis to pursue the proper tests.

My point is this: Her psychological status was changed completely by the introduction of an extraneous organism into her system which has totally altered every aspect of how she interacts with the world around her, possibly by altering the way her body reacts to its own chemistry. These doctors now think many of the psychiatric conditions that plague people - specifically children - are the manifestation of an autoimmune disorder and that by stopping psychiatric drugs and treating with drugs to control the AID, the disorders are being cured. Physiology drives behavior, personality, etc.. Good begets good unless and until a mutation occurs or something like PANDAS happens. It's all but destroyed her life and irreparably changed mine and my family's. This is mainly why I no longer do taxidermy or write.

I've prayed until I was blue in the face and God has been completely absent, as He is in just about anything and everything that I see. The progress in helping people like her comes from science, plain and simple, and nothing more.

As I stated above, I don't claim that God doesn't exist. I'm open to evidence that He does. But, based upon the empirical evidence I see, I'm not buying into it all. Life after death? I can't deny that it's possible, but it doesn't have to be only connected to religious doctrine. The force we call "life" has to undergo some sort of change at the time of death. Newton proved that energy can neither be created or destroyed, just changed from one form to another. At the same time, Christians don't corner the market on being decent people. There are plenty of folks who question the existence of God who are good folks, simply because it's the right thing to do and the right way to be. They're kind and generous because they want to help others. Religious folks, by comparison, might be considered a bit selfish since they're kind because of their fear of what might happen to their souls after they pass. It's an argument that can go on forever because, quite frankly, neither side has any proof that they are right and the other is wrong. I support anyone's right to believe as they see fit. Even if that means not at all.

--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 11, 2017 07:51 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Don't get me wrong, Lance. I like you, but sometimes....

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31275 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged


All times are Pacific  
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Huntmasters



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.0