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Author
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Topic: More ruins and rock art...
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 23, 2016 06:22 AM
Did another backpacking trip last weekend. With two friends, it's become a tradition for the three of us to go on a trip like this every spring. We got into some neat stuff, bunch of pictures to follow...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 23, 2016 06:25 AM
More...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 23, 2016 06:27 AM
Last batch...
These last few are from an old cowboy camp down in one of the canyons. These kind of semi-permanent camp sites that the old time hands used are almost as neat for me to find as the ancient indian stuff.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 23, 2016 07:52 AM
Simply wonderful stuff. I love it!
Thanks, Dave!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 23, 2016 08:29 AM
Love the image in photo #5 ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
I've often wondered about the rock art; deep spiritual meaning or kids writing on the walls ???
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 23, 2016 12:38 PM
quote:
Love the image in photo #5 [Cool]
I figured you would ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
quote:
I've often wondered about the rock art; deep spiritual meaning or kids writing on the walls ???
Much like what a coyote is saying, I don't think anyone can, or will ever know.
But, also much like coyote vocalizations, we can all speculate and offer opinions!
I've seen as much indian rock art as most and probably thought about it more than most.
My thoughts, in brief...
I think it runs the gamut. From idle doodling to deep, deep spiritual significance.
Some, looks to have been so casually done, and in many cases poorly done, that it's not hard to imagine one of the old ones pecking away simply to pass the time while waiting - for whatever.
Other examples though, most, perhaps and especially the multi colored pictographs, I believe had to have had "some" significance. I believe this do to the simple availability of resources and free time - of which there was none to spare!
To gather the ingredients and prepare the pigments must have taken some considerable time and effort. And you can't eat that stuff...
To do some of the big panels must have taken a LOT of time. A LOT! Those people didn't have "free time". Means the artist was being supported by the rest of the group. That stuff must have meant "something", to be worth supporting someone so they could do it?
And, it took skill! It's almost impossible for us to comprehend, that these people had NO GRAPHICS in their life. Except, the rock art. We, today, are constantly inundated, bombarded, surrounded, engulfed in, "graphics".
But think about it, a world where graphics didn't exist? Pottery decorations. Rock art. That's about it. These were skills that I doubt the average Joe had time or inclination to learn?
Anyway... Just my thoughts!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted April 23, 2016 03:24 PM
As always, I love this stuff and once again thanks for posting.
Interesting comments on the rock art Dave. It had never entered my feeble thoughts, until you mentioned it, that these people basically had no graphics in their lives... Very interesting point.
I've thought plenty though about the time involved in creating some sort of art and how daily survival couldn't have left much time for the arts or just wasting time in general. I guess we like to think the rock art all has some sort of big significance, but in reality some of it is likely the modern day version of driving through town and seeing "Keystone Light 12 packs--$8.99" on a sign.
I recently watched a Netflix documentary on the Chauvet cave paintings in France. Amazing stuff and very well done.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 24, 2016 06:01 AM
Well, as far as labeling a portion of this rock art (pictographs) as primitive graffiti, I'm not so sure?
In the first place, as Dave mentions, these people didn't have the idle time we have today. I mean, really. Think about the idle time we have today. Just hauling a skin of water up the trail, or wood for a fire.
But, what strikes me is the uniformity of the shapes. The men are always in a broad inverted triangle when they could have used a stick figure. Did the doodler or artist visit other sites and learn what those @ shapes represented? I'm guessing they all understood the message, whatever it was?
But, another thing. Compare the sophisticated and artistic cave drawings in France, from (what?) 17,000 years ago, Cro Magnon man to the crude and primitive drawings in these photos. You would really think it is reversed, as far as evolutionary "art" should be?
If anyone has seen native American skins showing the brutal killing of Custer and the 7th Cav, to me, what it looks like is how I used to draw in third grade, how they show cut off arms and red dots of blood, etc. And, this wasn't even 200 years ago, which shows what kind of developmental time warp that amerindians were present.
There are some extremely unique things about the first Americans and the comparative evolutionary location in which they existed. At a time when Europeans had invented time pieces and navigated oceans, we had people in the southwest that had not got around to inventing the wheel, had never seen a horse and their world view was so narrow, we can't even imagine? But apparently, they networked to some extent? Everybody knew where to find pipestone, for instance.
It's all very fascinating. Dave, thank you!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted April 24, 2016 07:25 AM
Leonard, putting dates on rock art is next to impossible. Inferences can be drawn from other evidence, but there isn't any way to actually "date" the art itself.
So, that said... It's not without controversy. But, most in the field agree, that in the southwest, rock art did in fact "devolve". At least by our modern standards, according to our modern eyes?
The most impressive rock art in the entire region to my eye - and that of most aficianados - is a style known as Barrier Canyon Style, BCS for short.
The most famous example of BCS style pictographs is the Great Gallery in Horseshoe canyon (which used to be called Barrier canyon).
Again, dating is problematic at best. Experts do all agree that it's almost certainly at least 2,000 years old on the new end. And perhaps 10,000 years old.
My own opinion, having visited the sites, read the reports, visited the museums and seen the related artifacts etc. Is that it's on the old end of that scale. At least 8,000 years old, in my opinion.
What is not in dispute, is that there is a lot of rock art that has to be newer, that is not as sophisticated.
The evidence for this is straightforward and I've seen it countless times. Petroglyphs made on top of pictographs.
By the time "white men" were interacting with the plains Indians during westward expansion of the US, everything had changed to such a dramatic extent, that the period needs to be viewed as not representative, in my opinion.
European disease had wiped out most of the native population before westward expansion even started. Depending on whether you subscribe to the low count of the high count, anywhere from 65% to 95% depopulation of the continent had already occurred by then. Hell, it occurred before the pilgrims landed and colonization started.
What the early settlers encountered were a remnant population. Survivors of an apocalypse that ended thousands of years of their tradition, culture, hell - civilization.
Those wild nomads, the stereotypical view of all Indians for all time for most Americans, have to be viewed in context. Personally, I think the evidence suggests they were a "Mad Max" version, a recent and extreme devolvement, not at all representative of the couple thousand years previous.
Rock art appears to have been going backwards, by our standards, even well before that though.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted April 24, 2016 07:39 AM
A few examples of BCS style. The largest figure, is about 7' tall, by the way...
So, a few miles upstream, in a tributary of the canyon where I took the above pictures, is a cave. It's location isn't published anywhere, the Park Service and the archaeologists keep it secret. But after making a couple of trips to search, I found it. A picture of it:
The cave was excavated by archaeologists in the '70s. Using accepted stratigraphy and carbon dating techniques, occupation of the cave was put at 10,000 to 2,000 years ago. That is to say, not that the cave was occupied "some time" in that time frame, but that it was occupied more or less continuously during that time. People lived in that cave for 8,000 years!!
Anyway... Among the artifacts, etc. Were clay figurines that are a dead match for the rock art images a few miles down canyon. Those figurines were solidly dated at 8,000 years old.
Just one of my arguments in favor of putting the older date on the rock art.
But... These people were far more sophisticated, far more advanced, organized, "civilized", etc. than the remnant population we Americans would encounter thousands of years later.
Oh, Indians in Meso America, did, in fact, invent the wheel thousands of years ago. But! They only used them for toys! Why, they never utilized them for more than literal childs play, is certainly a mystery. Though, there are some reasonable explanations that could be made - including how unsuitable their environment was to wheeled travel. Even when Cortez showed up, his troops quickly learned that wheeled conveyance in that part of the world at that time was no Bueno.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted April 24, 2016 08:55 AM
A few more thoughts, while I'm rambling anyway...
There is new evidence, new theories, new possible explanations and scenarios coming to light all the time.
Our understanding, is evolving. It's fluid, not fixed. An awful lot of what used to be accepted, believed, has been disproven. And new ideas have taken hold.
Obviously, these new ideas may eventually be disproved and replaced, in kind.
But, there are some general trends, bits of hard data here and there, that are likely to hold up. Among these...
People were present in the Americas far earlier than was thought even just a few decades ago. Exactly how much earlier, still up for debate, but the evidence is clear that the old idea that people arrived here about 17,000 years ago via land bridge across the Bering Straight has been totally debunked. It's unlikely that the whole land bridge thing happened, at all. People were here at least 25,000 years ago and probably came down the west coast in boats.
The Americas were far more densely populated than was generally believed just a few decades ago. Again, just how densely, still being debated. Two schools of thought, basically, low counters and high counters. But, even the low counters, put the pre Columbian population of the continent far, far higher than what was generally believed even just 20 years ago.
That dense population was lowered, tremendously, by the introduction of zoonotic disease from Europe in an a startlingly short period of time. Starting with first European contact, which was well before the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock. Again, just how dramatic the depopulation was, is up for debate, but even the most conservative estimates put forth by the low counters are in the neighborhood of 65%. Many, believe it was over 90%. In basically a single generation. The impact of such devastation on culture, tradition, civilization, is hard to imagine.
There were extensive "civilizations". Polities. States. Economies. Trade networks. Textiles. Political hierarchy. Large cities (South and Central America, were home to the largest cities IN THE WORLD, bigger than London, Rome, Babylon). Our rapid and complete development of suitable farm land in America has made large scale archaeology and research more difficult, but the evidence is overwhelming that areas such as the Ohio Valley and the Northeast were densely populated by well organized farming civilizations. Further, these civilizations had trade networks that reached from New York to South America. They had large scale civil engineering projects, re-routing rivers, creating grasslands out of forest, big terra forming projects, roads! ALL of this had long since, disappeared almost completely, due to the depopulation event, by the time "settlers" first arrived.
And, so on.
The typical American concept of the "native American", a wild, nomadic, warrior society, hunter-gatherer, is so far from what it was really like on this continent a thousand years ago, it's just ridiculous. In actuality, the place was densely settled by mostly sedentary farming civilizations.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted April 24, 2016 09:27 AM
I'm kind of interested in the Hopewell mound builders. I doubt we will ever figure that stuff out.
As far as the 17,000 year land bridge thing, what strikes me is the fact that they have dated material deep in south America as somewhere closer to 25,000 years old. But, in any case, if they crossed a land bridge 17,000 years ago, they wasted no time in arriving at Tierra del Fuego.
I dig this shit!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted April 24, 2016 02:07 PM
Me too..and I think the overall idea that Dave has laid out is pretty damn correct. I think that anyone that is even halfway interested in this stuff realizes nowdays that what we were taught in school has so many holes in it, you cant really take it seriously. As for native Americans, I do believe they were the leftovers from something a lot larger that was going on here on this continent thousands of years ago. Everthing that people are finding here nowdays points to just what Dave described. Awsome to think who may have been here and what was going on here.
Me and my son have long conversations about this kind of thing often, he is a big conspiracy theory,ancient astronaut type guy, Im not quite there..but it is pretty obvious to me, that mankind is a little older than we think.... has to be...and at one time WAY more evolved and refined than what we read about in the history books, at least in some places on Earth.
There is such large chunks of history missing. So much knowledge lost somehow. Pretty mindboggling.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
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posted April 24, 2016 02:15 PM
Dave, is that cave on a ranch, or public ground? Just curious. I read about an area on some private land there (I think?) that the ranch family has known about for like 100 years or so, but kept it secret, and only let archeoligists in in the 70s or 80s?
Im probly way off I know, but its interesting stuff.
Edit: nevermind, got it...I didnt read your posts well enough.
[ April 24, 2016, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 24, 2016 04:01 PM
Mark, yeah, that cave is on public. Can't remember whether it is just inside, or just outside of The Maze district of Canyonlands Nat'l Park. Just out of it, I think?
Believe the ranch you are talking about is Range Creek. The Wilcox ranch. On the west edge of the Book Cliffs. Fremont culture artifacts out the wazoo!
When Waldo Wilcox turned it over to the state for preservation, the state made it kind of hard to visit. You can. Just have to get a permit and follow a bunch of rules that make it difficult to really explore very much. But it's cool, just the same.
The Fremont were similar to the Anasazi in some ways, different in others. Contemporaries, existed at the same time, with the Fremont to the north and covering a lot of area to the west, all of the Great Basin, basically.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 25, 2016 04:47 AM
I talked to a man a few years ago, in *********. This guy had a ocean container full of artifacts, plus stuff scattered all around the ranch house, plus many framed "arrowhead" displays. Now, this is a completely different attitude than what Dave is doing; walking in and leaving without disturbing anything, but the shear size of his collection is astounding. Not considering the ethical and legal aspects, and I don't even know what his motivation might have been, <shrug> probably just a collector? But, he had more artifacts than I have ever seen in one place, including museums.
You know, several years ago, Victor showed me some stuff he had collected from anthills of all places! Included turquoise beads and human teeth. Who knew?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I keep thinking of something, but failed to mention it until now. Looking at Dave's excellent photos, anybody notice how often is shown a doorway with a large rock propped up close by? It seems to me, the purpose must be defensive? Here come some raiders and they have the time to get inside and wedge the rock in position making access difficult.
(see here)
Many of these raiders had a practical attitude kinda like what we call a Mexican Standoff. They might surround a redoubt and harass the occupants but after a while, loose interest and move on to more accessible victims. I have read many accounts where someone is hiding in heavy brush and nobody was brave enough to wade in there and pull him out. After a while, they just pick up and leave; call it a draw.
[ April 25, 2016, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 25, 2016 09:39 AM
Some more great stuff from Dave's excellent adventures. I'm sure glad you choose to share some of your pictures Dave, they are awesome.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
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posted April 25, 2016 10:32 AM
Simply amazing...how far did you have to hike, Dave, to get to those places?
Also, looking at some of the BCS art, it appears they were the first to document and draw a Crowne Royal bottle??? Maybe they were more sophisticated than we think!
[ April 25, 2016, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: booger ]
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If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 25, 2016 10:56 AM
Walking distance varies, a lot, of course.
But, just to put some statistics on it, in three trips, over the past six weeks, I've walked over 100 miles in the one canyon system.
To "see stuff", depends on the stuff, naturally, but ranges from drive right up, to two days (or more) walking to get there.
We're penciling in details for a trip next spring to try and reach the most remote stuff any of us has ever visited. We saw this canyon on a 60 mile backpack trip two years ago. Now we're thinking of making an expedition to explore up it. If we pull it off, it will end up being something along the lines of 75 - 90 miles walking in one backpack.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 25, 2016 05:17 PM
I hate to mess it up, but the first thing I thought of was bring along a camera crew. Nah, that wouldn't be right. It would give your hike in the equivalency of Geraldo opening up Al Capone's secret tunnel. lol
But, when it does happen, I hope you share it with us.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 27, 2016, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 26, 2016 03:50 AM
Dave, thank you for sharing your camera artistry! Your knowledge on the subject matter is also most welcomed...
Very cool stuff!!!
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
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posted April 26, 2016 07:31 AM
Thank you Dave My wife and I have been to some of the places you show , quite fascinating. I feel the people in t he know about the actual history are educated guesser's at best. As Huber say's only the yippers know for sure and they aint talkin.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 26, 2016 07:35 PM
Hell, I was trying to think of something profound, but I'll just echo what Fred said. Fucking amazing!!
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