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Author
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Topic: Carrying a gun in Wyoming....a question
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 24, 2015 01:45 PM
This is for Cal or anyone else who does or might have lived in Wyoming who, like Kansas, allows its residents to carry - concealed or open - without a permit of any kind. This is new to Kansas so we are still playing "what if" with it and some questions are difficult to answer.
My question is, "How does your state deal with the federal Gun Free Safe Zone Act (GFSZA)?"
This federal law makes it a violation for anyone to carry a gun - loaded or unloaded - within 1,000 feet of any school property, and if transporting the gun, it must be unloaded and secured in a locked case or locked gun rack. The issue I have is the same regardless of which state you are asking about.
I live one block from a primary school. The GFSZA allows me to possess a gun on private property but that only applies for me to the end of my driveway. No one will give me an answer as to how the streets are defined. They say that I can carry on someone else's property, but not public or school property within that 1,000 foot zone.
I just read a post where the Kansas Attorney General replied to an inquiry stating that he doesn't really know since this would be prosecuted by a federal court and his suggestion would be to just err on the side of caution and get a CCW permit. But, this is something I am opposed to, not agreeing with the fact that I have to buy back my right to self defense by paying a state-mandated fee to carry a gun.
I spoke with a local PD officer and he wasn't even aware of the GFSZA, nor had his superiors even mentioned it. He told me that locally, they wouldn't enforce any lawful possession of a gun - concealed or open - on the street adjacent to the school property. This is all well and good, until some jack wagon decides to earn a new stripe and someone is arrested for possession of a loaded gun in a GFSZA school zone, not realizing that they were breaking the law. The very fact that I have asked for a clarification on what, to me, is an important detail, has pissed off a few folks who should be in "the know".
Therefore, for the very limited numbers of folks who enjoy the freedoms that we do in Kansas, has anyone else seen this addressed or heard anything about how your state handles this?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 25, 2015 11:52 AM
Deserves an answer
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted July 26, 2015 04:07 PM
My advice is don't do it.
Around here they will hang you. I don't know about Kansas or Wyoming, where the laws may be interpreted differently, but "ignorance of the law" will not be en excuse if you run into the wrong officer.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 26, 2015 06:34 PM
I don't have any advice, of value, just a comment.
I don't know why or who wrote a stupid law that makes the citizen responsible to know what is unknowable. Then, a specious comment that ignorance is no defense. Come on!
How many schools are there, where are they located? Who the hell knows? Some may not even be published, no signs, doesn't even look like a traditional school? But some chickenshit cop hiding on the corner does know and his purpose is not guarding the school, or making things safer, his intent is to bust some innocent citizen and generate revenue for the department. And, here comes a pickup with a rifle rack completely visible in the back window.
So, is 49's advice, better safe than sorry, don't go anywhere with means of self protection because, (you know) maybe, somewhere you could wander within 1000 feet of a school and get arrested, fined and in-prisoned for years.
Does that seem fair and reasonable? Not to me, it doesn't.
Good hunting. El Bee
(hey, no offense 49, I know you are trying to help) So am I
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 26, 2015 07:59 PM
Everybody's favorite non-member writes to say the issue is uncased guns driving by a school.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted July 27, 2015 01:09 AM
No offense taken Leonard.
I think Cdog is looking for opinions or guidance, because he already knows the law. If I am off on this I am sure he will be back to clarify.
Who wants to be the test case? I run into this question a lot with retired police officers who wish to carry hollowpoint ammunition in NJ. NJ does not allow it's retired officers to carry hollowpoints, nor any expanding ammunition whatsoever. These guys get really angry with me on the forums when I tell them they can't carry Hornady Critical Defense of Federal Guard Dog (expanding fmj) here.
My question to them is always the same, "Who wants to be the test case?" For some reason, no one ever answers in the affirmative.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 27, 2015 04:13 AM
Myself here in Az. I drive thru or walk thru school zones carrying concealed ,entering the school property the gun goes under the seat and stays there until my business is finished at the school and I leave the property. carrying concealed if I go to a business that has a sign posted no guns mine is concealed and stays that way till I leave the business. I don't recommend this for everyone it works for me. I often carry open and here in Az. don't get as much as a glance
from others its fairly common here.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 27, 2015 04:49 AM
I also do not recommend what Paul suggests, but it's pretty much how I roll, out here in the People's Republik. (just kidding)
But, sooner or later, that admonition; better caught with it than without it, applies.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: need to comment on New Jersey. Who the hell dreams up those stupid laws? For some reason, when compelled to employ lethal force, in that state, you must use a wimpy, ineffective bullet when you need to kill someone?
I'm also thinking about hanging a convicted killer, but there is a restriction on the size, length and strength of the rope, for humanitarian reasons; of course.
edit: hey 49, please clarify. Only retired police officers can't load any type of hollow point bullets? But, active duty officers can? The general public can use hollow points?
[ July 27, 2015, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
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posted July 27, 2015 05:09 AM
Lance brings up a very good question. The 'zero tolerance' policy here in Kansas is really, really crazy.
This policy really allows school administrators to not have to think or use common sense when addressing issues.
We had two cases in my home town of Russell, Kansas, within the last year that were just silly.
A high school teacher spied a dead pheasant in the back of a student's truck, and assumed he had a firearm in the vehicle...cops were called, and he did have a shotgun in the truck, cased and action open--BEHIND the seat! This led to a 30 day suspension...could have been worse as the law calls for 180 days.
Second case involved a tackle box in the bed of a truck with a filet knife inside. Poor kid had been fishing the day before and forgot the knife was inside. Some administrator was rooting around and found it.
1 week suspension in that case. I knew the kid involved and he is a great kid. If he was my kid, I would have had a 'talk' with the person that was snooping in my son's truck...
I know as Hunter Ed instructors, we have to get permission from the school site administrators to have firearms in our classes if we teach on school property.
The problem is that each administrator interprets the law differently...some outright say no way, and others welcome us...go figure.
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If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 27, 2015 03:19 PM
Allow me first to describe the genesis of this inquiry. When SB45 passed in Kansas, everyone was hootin' and hollerin' about this so-called constitutional carry whereby any person 21 y/o or older who is lawfully and legally able to carry a weapon (doesn't have any felonies against them, or isn't a wife beater, etc.) is now able to carry without having to have a CCW permit. This has absolutely nothing to do with cased gun laws. That is a state's issue. I got crossways with the lady who is president of the Kansas State Rifle Association over this issue when I threw the proverbial wet blanket over the party crowd and reminded them that there was a federal law that makes it illegal to possess a firearm, concealed or open, loaded or unloaded, in what the law calls a "school zone" and which is described as within 1,000 feet of any school property. I concluded my comments by saying that despite the remarkable and commendable work of this woman and her organization, the term "constitutional carry" should changed to a more accurate name, suggesting "provisional carry" whereby you can carry a gun for personal defense provided that you abide by the still existing restrictions concerning school zones under the Gun Free Safe School Zone Act. Sure, you can carry open or concealed in Kansas without a permit, but there are still protections in place providing for the restrictions on carrying within what generally amounts to a sizeable portion of most communities.
For example, I actually took the time and rounded up a map of Abilene where I live. By the time I encircled an area 1k feet from the outside border of each parcel of school property, including two parochial school, maintenance facilities, transportation facilities, football and other sports fields (none of which were excluded in the law), it turns out that you cannot drive through this town going either north and south, or east and west, without violating a federal law, thus committing a felony.
From a personal standpoint, I have a K-1 grade school 1 block south of my house. Under the interpretation as provided by the state Attorney General, I am able to carry open or concealed on private property, not limited to my own. He does not define the status of city streets and travel ways. I have yet to get a commitment to my inquiry about whether or not I am breaking the law by driving down the street with a gun of any sort. Under the GFSZA, you are required to have your weapon - and it does not specify or limit what type of gun, it just says gun or firearm - secured and locked in a compartment or locking gun rack while in the zone. In other words, once I cross the line at the curb at the bottom of my driveway, if I have a gun that isn't locked in a case or locking gun rack, I am in violation of the law. That's my interpretation, and I have caught hell from all sides because I am going the extra yard to ensure that I do not inadvertently break any laws.
Now, I recently spoke with a local LEO and asked him questions re this specific issue. He told me that they went over the new law in Kansas and there was no mention of any federal limitations on gun owners carrying open or concealed against on the actual property belonging to the school as well as any other property - public or private - that bears the appropriate state-approved signage indicating no guns on the premises. For the average Joe, the issue stops there. They'll just accept that as gospel and assume that they can carry across the street from a school or on the street adjacent to the school.
I've even had people tell me that they weren't concerned about the GFSZA because it all comes down to whether or not the local prosecutor wants to nail you or not. Imagine their surprise when I advised them that under Kansas law, an officer who witnesses or is aware of a criminal act in progress is legally obligated to act, and in any instance where they choose not to, they themselves are in violation of the law and can be prosecuted. In other words, the LEO's have a vested interest in enforcing this federal law that seems to exist only on the fringes, and that's a damned dangerous situation, if you ask me. How long will it be before someone in advertently acts in such a way as to compel someone else to call the police because he or she is carrying a concealed weapon near a school? That person carrying has done nothing intentionally to break any laws and may very well have gone to great lengths not to, operating on what is, in reality, bad intel from people he considered to be legitimate sources for counsel. Next thing you know, this guy (or gal) has made themselves Nick's "test case" and he/ she gets convicted of a federal gun crime, resulting in the loss of their right to ever carry or own a firearm again.
Worse yet, how long will it be before some jack wagon who has spent day after day in a restricted are carrying open or concealed where local Barney's frequent and who know this guy and know he carries but choose to not get hot and bothered about it, until the guy does something stupid or careless with his gun? Draws it as a "warning". Drops it and it discharges accidentally? Has it taken from him and turned back onto him and other innocent people? Can you imagine the political shit storm that would happen when the public or media found out that this guy was buddies with the cops and they knew he had a gun but chose to ignore it because he was chummy?
I'm just looking for a answers and no one wants to commit. What happens to a non-CCW traveling through a strange town and he is stopped? He has a gun and is totally unaware that there is a school two blocks away. How are we supposed to know these things?
The AG said the same thing as Nick did. Don't take the chance. Get the permit? If that's the final answer, then why is repealing concealed carry laws relevant at all?
The ultimate answer is to seek nullification of the GFSZA. The Kansas law providing for open/ concealed carry carries all the necessary protections for school properties and private/ public property where the owners do not wish people to have guns, without the draconian, back-door, screw you in the ass when you're not looking 1000 foot restriction.
One final point - the GFSZA applies everywhere in the United States. Even if your state allows open and concealed carry, or so-called constitutional carry, this law restricts you.
I'd like to see where it is written in the Constitution that I can't carry a gun within 1,000 feet of a school house.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted July 27, 2015 04:38 PM
That was exactly what I was speaking about Lance, as far as the test case scenario goes applied to NJ retired officers. Someone has to pull their gun, or worse yet has to shoot somebody and uses bullets that are not 100% jersey legal.
Same thing applies to the school zone issue as you have stated. It will eventually happen to someone.
Leonard, I wasn't clear with the NJ hollowpoint ban. Hollowpoints are illegal for carry by everyone in NJ who isn't an active law enforcement officer. So retired officers cannot carry them.
The only places hollowpoints are legal are the range, the home, and the route to and from the range or ammo store to the home. Any deviations from that and the shooter is in violation.The law was designed to prohibit gang bangers from driving around on a Saturday night with a handgun loaded with hollowpoints. Yeah right...as if a gang banger cares about the law. The law is severely misguided. If gang bangers are going to shoot up a neighborhood block, the hollowpoint rounds would tend to ricochet less off concrete and pavement than a full metal jacketed bullet. The whole thing is ridiculous.
It isn't a problem until it becomes a problem, much like Lance's scenario and mine with the retired officers.
[ July 27, 2015, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 28, 2015 07:31 AM
Lance and 49, you are both addressing my concerns in my previous post. Thank you....I guess? Also, thanks for clarifying that, yes, as I initially thought, New Jersey gun laws are ridiculous.
You know, with several pieces, I load a Glazer up the spout for a couple reasons. First, they are a hot load and blow a serious hole in tissue. But second, the ricochet factor is greatly reduced in movie theaters, etc.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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