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Author
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Topic: Kiva
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 30, 2015 08:32 AM
Could be. Not likely anyone is ever going to have any certainty.
It's pretty difficult to explain a complete - absolute 100% depopulation of such a large area, that had been lived in constantly for thousands of years, simply because of resource depletion though.
Modeling predicts there were still enough resources for the whole population, even if on short rations and modified behavior.
But take away half, two thirds of the population, the remaining resources were more than sufficient for the remaining population.
The abandonment was not a single, en masse event. It took place over several decades as people started to leave the area in small groups. Then towards the very end, those that remained, seemingly did, all at once, just walk away. Not pack up and leave. They left an awful lot of their material goods behind. But just up and left all the sudden.
Nobody stayed though. Nobody! Really nothing stopping the stragglers from staying where their fathers and fathers, fathers had lived. By the late 1200's, the few remaining had not only plentiful natural resources left for the greatly reduced population, but all the material goods that had been left behind by the ones who had already left. They could have just sat tight and been fat cats. But they left too.
Resource depletion and environmental stress played a large role, I'd bet on that. But I personally think there had to have been more to it. A generation watching the priests exact tribute, but fail to deliver on their rain promises would have generated some dissention. I think there was some major, major societal upheaval going on. The cliff dwellings - those are all very late game structures. It's not how they had lived for hundreds of years before that. Very defensive structures. Evidence all points to mass killings and people eating each other when there was other food to be had and the like. Some evidence that the priests had been eating people all along.
Shit got very strange on the Colorado Plateau in the late 1200's.
- DAA
[ April 30, 2015, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 30, 2015 08:44 AM
Well, i'm ok with tribal warfare as a possible motivation for the virtual abandonment. At what point did the Navajo start moving in and I have heard they were not good neighbors....still aren't.
Very interesting subject.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31488 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 30, 2015 10:32 AM
Depends who you ask, as to when the Navajo showed up. They say they have always been there. Archaeologists and Anthropologists all say not until about 300 years after the Anasazi left.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 30, 2015 11:16 AM
Dave, without trying to get caught up in the "ancient aliens" hooplah, may I ask if any of the resources you've referenced to educate yourself on Anasazi culture happened to mention any 'extraterrestrial' hypotheses about their demise?
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 30, 2015 11:22 AM
Nope, not a one! No alien theories espoused in any of the books or papers I've read.
And, the mystery is why they all left. Not where they went. We know where they went. They didn't disappear. They assimilated with other pueblo tribes to the south, mostly along the Rio Grande.
Still there is mystery there though. And it goes back to the thoughts about real social upheaval and rejection of the system.
They took none of their material culture with them. They made magnificent pottery. They stopped making it when they left. They had distinctive architecture. They stopped building that way when they left. And so on.
But, DNA is conclusive - it's no mystery "where" they went. No disappearance. Just an abandonment and relocation.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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ursus21
2nd place, John Denver lookalike Contest
Member # 3556
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posted April 30, 2015 11:50 AM
This is flat out one of the coolest, if not the coolest, post I've seen on the net in a very long time! Thanks Dave!!!
Posts: 780 | From: Montana | Registered: Jan 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 30, 2015 03:42 PM
About cannibalism. This is a very touchy subject among the various tribes, to the point that they deny historical evidence. I suppose it mostly involved eating enemies, maybe ceremonial, spiritual? But, there is archeological evidence, human bones with butchering marks, stuff like that. If you can believe the movies, maybe they ate the heart of a brave warrior to gain some advantage. If the priests or shamans did it, fine but it's pretty clear it happened, some times, some places. I think they have analyzed fossilized Coprolites and found human DNA. The denial, is right up there with the contention that they have been there since the Great Spirit created the people from dust or some other substance. So, there is a lot of deferment to whatever the elders have passed down for generations. And, it's all good, they were noble people, not savages.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 30, 2015, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31488 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324
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posted April 30, 2015 10:10 PM
To leave because of tribal warfare or resource depletion, you would think that they would have held on to there customs and beliefs.
I think Dave is right about something strange going on. Might have been a split between the ruling class and the lower class. But to make a clean brake from ones culture like they did is amazing.
Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted May 01, 2015 06:35 AM
Best thread I've read anywhere in a long time.
Thanks Dave for sharing your pictures and knowledge on this subject.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 01, 2015 12:27 PM
Dave, I got to the pic where you first show the pottery shards and before I scrolled down, I wondered to myself if you would have gotten any of the classic Anasazi-only pottery, and you did.
You said, " They made magnificent pottery..."
In that pic, you guys can see shards where there is a black line embedded in the clay, sandwiched between the outer and inner white layers. I have an uncle and aunt who live about six miles NE of Mesa Verde. You can see the backside of Mesa Verde from their front yard and they own land, called Dawson's Canyon, that empties into Yellowknife Canyon just above the area beneath the villages and dwellings at Mesa Verde. They have the foundations of partially subterranean dwellings that have been dated to 3,000 prior to the Anisazis on their ground, and their neighbor has a kiva on his ground as well. Very little pottery left there because of everyone collecting it (they no longer allow it to be removed), but we did find a shard with the black inner layer and my uncle told me that this was considered an incredibly valuable find because of the history of that particular type of pottery. The clay is not molded that way. Rather, the layering happens due to the specific way the pottery is fired. Modern efforts to reproduce that technique failed for well over a hundred years, up to about ten years ago when I saw an article that the University of Colorado had published that someone had actually discovered (again) how to fire their pottery so it came out the same way.
That picture rocketed me back to a place, a time, and a conversation with one of my favorite uncles. Thanks!
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 04, 2015 04:18 PM
Interesting;
In one of the washes that I've hunted that type of shard is pretty common.
My own personal theory on the abandonment is that it had to be religious in nature. As in a living God turned out to be `ignore the man behind the curtain` type thing for an entire people to walk away from their land, goods and culture.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7587 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted May 04, 2015 04:55 PM
The fashionable theory 20 years ago was the "kachina phenomena". New religion, to the south, kachina.
Not a very popular explanation anymore though. Has had some pretty big holes blown in it.
But abandoning the religion they had been practicing for centuries, not necessarily to go embrace anything else in particular, I think that is very likely a big part of it.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted May 04, 2015 05:04 PM
I have a place 20 minutes from my place here, that we have found some extraordinary pieces of pottery, bone tools and spear/arrow points. I have one particular piece of pottery, that when held just right to the light source, the painted pattern sparkles, under a glass, it looks as though ground up pieces of mica were blended with the paint?
Took the wife and two of her friends, who wanted to see if they could find an arrow head. I walked them up a narrow, five foot deep wash, where I occasionally have found some good ones. The one gal, was from Quebec, spoke very little english, and was dragging up the rear. I usually have the eye for points, and was looking hard, when this gal spoke up, wondering if she had something good.
I wanted to grab it and stuff it in my pocket! It was absolutely the finest example of a point I have ever laid eyes on, and she had no clue what it was. This point was maybe three inches long and inch and a half wide, very thin, and crystal clear, with rusty/orange spider web of viens running all thru it. When held to the sunlight, it was like looking at stained glass.
Ive walked that wash a hundred times and never found any that nice....beginners luck I suppose?
Posts: 1631 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 04, 2015 07:35 PM
That's interesting, Vic. I remember a while back, you showed me a small collection of turquoise beads and teeth that you culled from ant hills.
But, like I said before, a point the size you describe is not an arrow head. The aerodynamics would guarantee that such an arrow would not arrive point on-too heavy. Probably some type of projectile point as would be used on a spear, atlatl or lance. Still very cool!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: by the way, I know a guy in Texas that has more paleo amerind artifacts than you could imagine. A full shipping container, I would love to ride with him one afternoon, he has an unbelievable site somewhere?
[ May 04, 2015, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31488 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Colorado Coyotes
Knows what it's all about
Member # 62
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posted May 30, 2015 10:53 AM
I almost missed this thread, I mostly just read a few things and move on.
Absolutely amazing stuff. Having talked to Dave privately about some things I figured him to be an interesting fella. I had no clue.
Thanks for posting this info Dave. Someday maybe we'll get a chance to shake hands.
Posts: 35 | From: Hoehne Colorado | Registered: Jan 2003
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Colorado Coyotes
Knows what it's all about
Member # 62
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posted May 30, 2015 10:59 AM
I almost missed this thread, I mostly just read a few things and move on.
Absolutely amazing stuff. Having talked to Dave privately about some things I figured him to be an interesting fella. I had no clue. I've seen his photographic skills and read about his firearm/ballistic knowledge but this special.
I used to hang out with a friend years ago who had a degree in anthropology (I think) but never talked about it, too busy drinking beer & chasing girls.
Thanks for posting this info Dave. Someday maybe we'll get a chance to shake hands.
Sorry double post.
[ May 30, 2015, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Colorado Coyotes ]
Posts: 35 | From: Hoehne Colorado | Registered: Jan 2003
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