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Author
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Topic: Kiva
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 29, 2015 12:33 PM
From a long walk I took over the weekend.
What is it, you may ask?
It's an Anasazi kiva. But it's the least messed with, most intact, "wild" kiva I've ever come across. By "wild", I mean that it has not been excavated. Neither archaeologists nor looters have put a shovel to it. No federal agency has claimed it. It's just out there, waiting for people like me to stumble across it. While I know others have found it before me, there were no visible boot tracks anywhere near it on this visit and boot tracks last a long, long time in these protected alcoves.
It's at least 700 years old.
To find one this unspoiled, with the ladder still intact and everything, is just beyond rare. It's unheard of. Made my whole weekend, that is for sure!
Few other pics from the site.
700+ year old corn. Which, the corn itself is common, see it all the time. But finding an ear still on the stalk like this is just beyond rare these days - it's truly unheard of. You KNOW you have found a rarely seen Anasazi site when you find something like this!
And some potsherds. Pretty garden variety, nothing unusual, but there were hundreds of them all over the whole site, which makes them unusual and obviously not messed with much. People tend to put these in their pockets. Where 20 years ago I used to see them by the thousands, it's rare to see any these days. So to find a site with hundreds of them just scattered about in this day and age sure did my heart good.
Couple more pics from the walk.
Me and two buddies walked 50 miles over the course of 3.5 days through and area about as far from civilization as you can get anymore. We saw not another human being the whole 50 miles of walking. And it was a busy weekend in the canyons, as such things go. We just picked a pretty out of the way, seldom walked area. Seldom walked because water is an iffy proposition. But, we lucked out and found plenty.
Good times!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 29, 2015 01:43 PM
Damn Dave! That's just awesome! Like something out of a Hillerman novel. But, you made a post a couple days ago claiming you could hardly walk, much less run.
The kiva. Was it underground and covered? Was that square the entrance? Did you go in there? I assume that's what the ladder was for, but not sure.
I said it before, amigo. I envy you!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 29, 2015 01:56 PM
Too cool !!!!!
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 29, 2015 02:08 PM
Leonard, yes, underground and covered. Square entrance, via ladder.
I didn't try going in. A 700+ year old ladder with rungs tied on with yucca fiber is a little too adventurous for me. Not to mention, the site has been undisturbed for so long, who am I to wreck that? Leave it undisturbed, is my approach.
Also saw what I would bet was a burial in the alcove. I didn't step on it or mess with it at all. I could even be wrong, might have been a simple storage cyst, but I don't think I am...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 29, 2015 04:00 PM
So how did you come up with 700? Online research or what?
Did you at least shine an LED down the hatch?
DAMN MAN ! Your adventures are literally awesome!
Good hunting LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted April 29, 2015 04:20 PM
Wow, that is beyond cool Dave...
Anybody who has an interest in ancient people dream of finding something like you did.
Thanks for posting the pics and I'm glad it was somebody like you that understands and appreciates this sort of stuff otherwise I can imagine it would be ruined in short order.
I would have bet a crisp $100 bill that nothing like this was left to be found in such an undisturbed condition anymore.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 29, 2015 05:27 PM
Leonard, at least 700 years because there is universal agreement among southwest archaeologists that the Anasazi abandonment of the Colorado Plateau was complete by 1300 A.D.
So, any Anasazi stuff in the area has to be at least 700 years old. A lot of it, is much older. Some of it much, much older. But this style of kiva is what they call Pueblo 3 style, which was only the last couple hundred years before abandonment. So, pretty safe to say this ruin is between 700 and 900 years old.
I've got a stack of books and published studies and thesis about this stuff. The Old Ones has long been a favored subject, been studying them since before there was an internet. Not just the Anasazi, either, though they do get most of the ink and a lot of my attention. But the Fremont, who ranged over the Great Basin and the cultures that came before them, simply known as "archaic", too.
And let's not forget the settlers either! Cattleman, cowboys, miners, Mormon's, I've always had an interest in all the history of the American West. Here are the remains of an old cowboy camp we encountered on this hike.
Been awhile since I've seen even a partially intact barrel still sitting where it was left however long ago.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 29, 2015 05:31 PM
Lonny, you wouldn't believe what one of my buddies on this trip found last month. He found a completely whole, intact Anasazi pot. Just sitting in the dirt where it was put down 700+ years ago.
He didn't even touch it. Took some pictures and left it where he found it. He'd tell me where it is, if I asked, but I didn't ask. I know which canyon he was in, hoping I can find it on my own.
We know another guy, that found a whole, intact basked in the same canyon we were hiking this past weekend. He found it almost 20 years ago. Went back and looked again 2 years ago and says it is still sitting there exactly as he'd last seen it. We had our eyes peeled, on this trip, hoping, but that's one I suspect we'll never find on our own.
Oh, and Leonard, no did not even shine a light in. I didn't want to risk even putting my weight on that roof. Not for my safety, but for the risk of damaging the ruin. It might support an elephant, I don't know. But wasn't willing to take the chance.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 29, 2015 05:32 PM
Neat camp spot we had under an arch on Fri. night.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 29, 2015 05:55 PM
That is just too cool!
I have a buddy fixing to be shipped off to either Utah or Nevada to start drilling a new oilfield. I showed him pics from your last post and told him I was coming to visit, love the country.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted April 29, 2015 06:44 PM
Dave,
From your studying of the Anasazi, how different was the area they lived in then compared to now.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Clint
Knows what it's all about
Member # 346
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posted April 29, 2015 06:58 PM
Probably a few less Mormons and better hunting, They left for some reason.
Posts: 148 | From: Mesa, AZ | Registered: Jun 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 29, 2015 07:16 PM
I' ve seen a few ruins, Montezuma's Castle and the Anistazi ruins close to San Franscisco Peak and a few others which you can drive to so that's embarassing compared to your efforts.
And, that cowboy camp is also just as thrilling, if you ask me?
You know, one of my prized findings, a virtually perfect mortar and matching pestle, you have me feeling guilty for "disturbing" it!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 30, 2015 03:15 AM
RESPECT
Friggin' phenomenal finds, Dave!
Thanks so much for sharing them...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 30, 2015 04:21 AM
Lonny, the area was quite different, towards the end of their era, than it is now.
But, as a culture, they inhabited the area for at least a couple thousand years and the climate and resources, the way they used the environment, it all changed a lot over time. So, to answer that question, you kind of have to pin it down to a specific period in the Anasazi culture. Which, is more or less defined as starting around 750 AD and lasting up till the abandonment at 1300. Prior to that, the same people had a different lifestyle, called the Basketmaker culture. Before that, they call them archaic. But Basketmaker is basically when they started growing corn and Anasazi is when they started building pueblo style structures.
Anyway... By the end, there had been a decades long drought, the mesa tops were deforested, there was almost no big game left to hunt, things were grim!
It's probably not much less dry today. What was a drought for that time, is closer to normal for the current.
But the dense PJ forest in that particular area now, has all grown up since the Anasazi left. They'd pretty much denuded the area for fire wood.
The big game populations, deer especially, are much higher today. Big horn, hard to say. Their numbers are pretty low, due to domestic sheep diseases, but they were also low then, due to hunting. Might be sixes? But earlier in the Anasazi history, big horn were much more plentiful in the area than today.
There has been massive amounts of erosion in that area since the Anasazi left. Massive! Credit that to the cattle that grazed the canyon for many years. Cattle trails become arroyo cutting, which leads to landscape changing erosion on a huge scale.
But, in a lot of ways, it's not changed. Those rocks take time to change. The fact that so many of the ruins are so well preserved speaks to that.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 30, 2015 04:24 AM
Another big difference, at the height of their occupation, the area was far more densely populated than it is today.
That is true for many areas in the west. Hard to imagine now, but it's estimated that indeed, there were perhaps ten times as many people living in San Juan county Utah 900 years ago, than there are today!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
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posted April 30, 2015 05:02 AM
That is way beyond cool...thanks for sharing, Dave!
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If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 30, 2015 05:02 AM
cool stuff Dave. Thanks for sharing some of your pics.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 30, 2015 05:39 AM
This friggin' guy is awesome in several different ways!
Just consider his coyote calendars. Then there is his videos, coyotes, prairie dogs etc. and, he has more custom rifles than even Fred and kelly, put together. He seems to know back country backpacking like few others, speaks with authority on ancient cultures. How about the pioneer expeditions, places few of us have ever seen. And, an expert coyote hunter, true "rifleman".
He's a fund of knowlege. We are lucky to have him, I'm impressed! Can you tell?
Good Hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324
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posted April 30, 2015 06:40 AM
Dave very nice pictures...Did the Anasazi have a road system that connected the different Pueblos together like the Incas or Astecs?
Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 30, 2015 07:02 AM
Eddie, they did have a road system. Exactly what purpose it served, is still largely a mystery though.
Basically, all roads radiated out from Chaco canyon. Towards the other "great houses" of the Anasazi domain - places like Mesa Verde, Aztec, Kayenta, etc. And they all went absolutely straight, even though the terrain might have dictated they should have some curves! They were much wider than could have possibly been needed for people on foot, too. Some of them were (are?) a couple hundred miles long.
If you know what you are looking at, remnants are not hard to see even today.
The roads don't seem to make "practical" sense. Several very interesting theories about those roads. Mostly involving ceremonial, or religious or "pilgrimage" use. The most interesting theories about all this stuff, are put forth by an archaeologist named Lekson. He wrote a book about 20 years ago called the Chaco Meridian. Made some very unconventional claims. Most of it was absolutely trashed by his peers, when he first put it all forth. Now, 20 years later, much of it has either been largely proven by actual data, or at least has come to be accepted as the general consensus by his peers.
One of his controversial theories, that has since become widely accepted, is that kivas were the basic living quarters - NOT the "ceremonial chamber" as had been universally thought up until recent years. But now, most southwest archaeologists agree, the kiva was where the Anasazi lived.
But those roads! Lekson has his theories, which are fascinating, but impossible to be certain of any of it yet at this point.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 30, 2015 07:05 AM
Let's see what he says, but my hunch is, no. I don't think the society was that advanced, culturally and politically to have something like civil servants, ie:road crews. These people were "hunter-gatherers" with ties to outlying camps but i really can't envision a need or the wherewithal for actual roads other than game trails. The Incas and mayans were a lot more advanced and wealthy. These indians were primitive in comparason. The Incas could build a wall with huge boulders, but you couldn't
Slip a piece of paper between the cracks. The anastazis basically just stacked flagstone or possibly used adobe on some pueblos, but the craftsmanship was not comparable. And, I think the need to travel from site to site wasn't nearly as commercial as it was, (perhaps) social?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 30, 2015 07:08 AM
Some interesting work has been done that shows the Anasazi had a long range communications network too. Using high points and line of sight. It's been shown they were capable of routinely transferring messages over hundreds of miles in only a few minutes time.
Some remote, high altitude pueblos seemed to have served little other purpose than astronomical observation and communications relay. They're built in locations where simple resources like water and arable land for food production are too far away - these pueblos had to be "supplied" to exist.
All of it indicates a pretty advanced and well regulated civil society and power structure.
Some of the most compelling theories concerning the abandonment have more to do with revolt and the people turning their backs on that top down power structure, in favor of a more egalitarian society. Rather than simply an environmental and resources collapse.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 30, 2015 07:08 AM
Well, so much for my half baked theories!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 30, 2015 07:16 AM
But, i think it is beyond dispute that, (as mentioned by Dave) that they ran out of wood for fires. For cooking and for warmth.
This alone can make you want to pack up and seek better conditions. LB
edit: this iphone crap is for the birds!
Edit: I'm not buying this speculation about disfavtisfaction with the power structure being responsible for the collapse. They left no written records other than drawing on rocks, so it cannot be reliable to read the tea leaves to come up with specific reasons. For my money Alex, i'll take resource depletion fot $1000. LB
oh, and GLOBAL WARMING on the daily double !
[ April 30, 2015, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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