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Author
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Topic: Contest should they be kept confidential
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22-250
Knows what it's all about
Member # 36
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posted March 11, 2015 10:25 AM
Got this email from a group of animal lovers. Should hunts continue as is or should these hunts be kept confidential
Sent:
Tue, 10 Mar 2015 23:57:09 -0700
Subject:
Fwd: These Gory New Hunting Competitions Have Taken the Country by Storm | Mother Jones
March 10, 2015
See article below, godawful photos, and the hundreds of comments.
E.O. Wilson is right. We are an "innately dysfunctional species." And morally bankrupt to boot, it would seem.
What's to be done? Legislation? Ballot initiatives? This simply CANNOT be allowed to continue. And it ain't just Texas (though they're likely the worst offenders).
Please forward accordingly.
Any feedback appreciated. Please cc to all.
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/03/killing-coyotes-bobcats-and-foxes-fun-and-profit
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The coyote is a living, breathing allegory of Want. He is always hungry. He is always poor, out of luck and friendless. The meanest creatures despise him and even the flea would desert him for a velocipede.
Posts: 108 | From: Longview, Texas, glad to be gone | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted March 11, 2015 11:08 AM
fuck I don't know. Its starting to irritate me though.
To go under ground essentially would be the idea of hoping the tree huggers would be "tolerant" if they don't see it. They know it happens, but it doesn't come up in their google searches ..
Quite frankly, I don't think that would work. After there convictions are set , they'll go after it until they can't go any further..
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 11, 2015 12:05 PM
If I had the slightest interest in preserving contest hunting, I'd be strongly in favor of a low profile.
The handwriting on the wall could not be any more plain. Contest hunting is doomed. That is not in question.
What is in question, are how much longer contest hunting will last and how much collateral damage contests will cause to predator hunting in general in the meantime.
The best hope for both of these questions, would be best served by going underground. I think?
Personally, I wish contests would be kept as quiet as possible. Local conditions are everything, and so the publicity really isn't likely to have any effect on my hunting in Utah, Nevada and Wyoming. But it probably will sooner than later, in Colorado and Arizona.
California is already moving on it.
When it comes to any kind of a vote, contests are dead in the water. I think if the vote were limited to only predator hunters, contests would probably die. They are not popular among predator hunters that don't actively participate themselves. Amongst non-predator hunters and non-hunters, leaving out a few livestock interests, there isn't any support at all.
In other words, the only people in favor of contests, are the guys that do them. And that's not enough people to do jack shit about anything. Anywhere. Guys like me, won't vote against them, just on principle. But aren't in favor of them either and won't do anything to save them.
Keep them secret and you'll get to keep them a bit longer maybe. Keep them public and they'll be gone faster.
They're going away though. Sooner or later. Just way too much negative sentiment out there. Even among predator hunters, in general.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DarbinCo
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4590
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posted March 11, 2015 01:43 PM
I think Dave's spot on with this.
Posts: 16 | From: Western Colorado | Registered: Mar 2015
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 11, 2015 01:50 PM
Gentlemen, it's the same old argument. When they outlawed slugs, I didn't care because I don't use them. When they outlawed lead bullets, I didn't object because I can use monolithic copper solids.
It goes on and on, I didn't care about goose hunting when they outlawed it, and pretty near everything else including trout and magnificent Bull Elk.
Just as long as I can hunt my deer, I don't care about those other guy's problems. Well, guess what? They all left the building and now nobody gives a shit about you killing Bambi. Get over it.
Long way of saying, stick together, support all branches of the sport, don't give a fucking inch. Sooner or later, they won't be happy banning contest hunting. They always win, sportsmen are the stupidest people on the planet so when your ox is gored, do not expect the rest of us to man the barricades.
There is no logical fucking reason to ban contests. It's ethical, it's on moral grounds, etc. When you can buy hamburger in the store, there is no reason to kill one of Gods creatures. Sooner or later, it's coming. Nobody cares about contests, even long time coyote hunters could care less.
The CSVCA has been gone for twelve years or so, due to efforts of Clevenger and Jamroz. But, going back another ten years, they were still after us and we went underground. No publishing dates and locations. Don't give them anything to work with.
But, when you have people within the organization that have their own motivation, perhaps "Quislings" might be a better word, why would you need bunny huggers to carry the water?
So, no skin off your nose, don't fight for something perfectly legal, etc. Hunters have never been good organizers, they will never learn and the future doesn't look too bright. One of these days, your favorite passtime will be illegal. You have only yourselves to blame.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted March 11, 2015 03:21 PM
Honestly, Im on the same page as Dave, but I will speak for myself.
It hurts to say it, but with the internet age, contest hunting splashed all over the place just puts forth a bad image that we may not recover from. It doesnt matter if its ethical and moral or not. Its about image, thats it. Any other time, with any other topic, every hunter out there would be harping on "image this and image that", seemingly really concerned about it, but when money gets involved, it all goes to shit.
And, yes, I want to defend it(contest hunting) to the death, not give an inch, "stick together" and all that good stuff...but man, you know what?...there are some things, sometimes, that a person just does not agree with or wants to go along with the crowd on, because they know it is killing the overall main endeavor(hunting). Can we not police ourselves just a bit, for the good of the (yes, Ill say it,) sport? If clubbing baby kittens and puppies were legal and popular to do, do I have to go along with that too?
You can criticize me or cuss me or call me an anti all you want, I really dont give a shit. I just know that this fight will not be won, and it draws unwanted attention to (predator)hunting, and hunters overall. Contest hunting + internet+ narcisism, is accelerating our demise. Simple as that.
Hunting, in no way shape or form, will ever be like bass fishing. The whole tournament comparison will never work, and I get sick of people trying to compare the two. It just will not work, period.
I know I didnt put my words and ideas together very well with this, but, you get my point.
What the hell happened to the days we just went out hunting, and was satisfied with that?
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted March 11, 2015 03:34 PM
I don't know. I remember when someone thought to be a gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender was enough to get their ass kicked. Seems everyone just knew that shit was bad. Sodomist would rot in hell according to some. They (GLBT) have been ramming that crap down our throats, TV commercials, regular TV, schools, etc. That shit just seems to get stronger and stronger.
[ March 11, 2015, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324
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posted March 11, 2015 05:17 PM
I'll have to agree with Lone Howl hunting contest will never be the same as fishing contest. I don't hunt in paying contest but I have no problem with those that do. But I do believe that we as hunters are going to have to stick together If we are going to kept our right to hunt. With all that said, I think contest should be held on low profile if they want to keep having them.
Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted March 11, 2015 07:30 PM
Hell Coyote contests have been around since the 50's. Contests aren't what has hurt the sport of predator hunting. Its all the attention to predator hunting that has been happening over the last 10 years. Contests are just an easy target to get the antis stirred up. Videos,internet, YouTube, and cable tv predator shows have hurt predator hunting more than contests have. That and all the hero shots of dead stuff. Which I myself have been guilty of. Once you pull at peoples heart strings with shot up bloody dead coyotes its easy to get public support for bans. Especially when you get prizes for doing it. I guarantee contests are just the beginning. They won't stop until none of us can hunt.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted March 11, 2015 08:32 PM
Contests are an easy target for the anti's. Like already mentioned, even most predator hunters probably wouldn't support contest hunting if they were forced to vote. It's the fringe stuff like this that is easy to pick off.
Many a sporting goods store and tavern used to have big buck and bull contests in these parts every year. Not so anymore. They didn't get outlawed either it was people getting caught poaching and entering animals to claim the prizes and it simply fell out of favor. Predator contests can't be far behind, especially when they are advertised far and wide with the power of the 'net which draws a lot of attention to them.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 12, 2015 04:19 AM
I don't care if anybody is in to my forms of recreation, but there is an important issue involved.
I have said it before. This country is a Representative Republic. We never fell into the trap of "Democracy" and here's why.
It has to do with an important concept; a friggin' "Democratic" vote to restrict the freedom of minorities. Minorities deserve respect. We should not bask in our sense of righteousness by voting to trash the rights of minorities.
If people enjoy a hunting contest, it's asinine to jump on the bandwagon and outlaw what they are doing, without any shred of evidence that it is harmful to the public at large, the people involved and the animals; the quarry.
I'm really surprised at some of the attitude expressed here on this page. It's shallow and counterproductive. I truly believe this is one of those issues that should not be disruptive within the community of hunters and especially those that hunt predators.
On down the road, we will see seasons. Down the road we will see bag limits. Caliber restrictions. How are you guys going to "vote"? With the crowd? So, yes, within the sport we have those that are chewing at the foundation. Because they don't wish to participate, they will stand around and let their brothers be hammered...."Not my prob, Dude".
Okay, everybody has an opinion, I understand that. But those that enjoy the contest, and I include myself in that group, do not ask for approval. However, in this case, they are politely holding the lynching rope for the anti's. Don't you get it?
Here is one solution.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B26MJakaF-7mOGlPNnEwQTNNQTQ/view
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted March 12, 2015 05:09 AM
not much difference when compared to gun owners and gun owners who own AR's. AR owners are the small group who think they should have the backing of all gun owners, when someone wants to take away their AR's.
But so many that don't own AR's could give a rats ass if the AR owners lose their battle, because after all, "it ain't my guns that they're taking away."
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted March 12, 2015 05:20 AM
I can't help but agree with you Leonard. Everything you have said is spot on. So, how's that vote on contests in Commifornia doing? Do you have to buy tags and seasons now to "harvest" coyotes?
It should have been underground for years now.
Do you ever here about any cockfights?
No. but they are out there and doing just fine if you don't stumble upon one and get yourself in a lot of trouble.
That's what contests should have been doing all along as we are pretty much a niche group of hunters and communicate amoungst ourselves.
The writting has been graffitied on the wall and all we can do is hopefully vote against such stupidity.
We live the world of "Idiocracy".
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Support Communism and help destroy the United States of America ! VOTE DEMOCRAT. "In the end, they aren't coming after me. They are coming after you!" D.Trump
Posts: 636 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted March 12, 2015 07:50 AM
Keep it out of the limelight, thats my point.
If you dont, you are lynching your own self.
Mark
[ March 12, 2015, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 12, 2015 09:56 AM
Pay attention. Me personally advocated for not advertising our contests almost twenty years ago. It worked for a while but not when we have traitors like CleverGary working for the other side.
Yes, the CSVCA voted as policy to conduct our events beyond CA state lines and to not publish dates and times of our hunts.
How's that for "Keep it out of the limelight"?
But, this new group of people have been promoting the Struble Memorial Hunt for the past couple years and it has blown up in their faces.
It's not my job to bring everybody up to speed on CA politics.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS exactly like Elmer Keith once said: "Hell, I was there"!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted March 12, 2015 10:24 AM
It's your board, so to this pissing match I say "you win". Whatever.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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Z
Knows what it's all about
Member # 303
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posted March 13, 2015 02:19 PM
I am too old for this discussion. Never have thought much of contests. I think I have a low testosterone level. Plus I am not in good enough shape to run like a dog in heat trying to get to the next stand. I know guys 20 years ago in Utah that were doing contests and not publishing it. They would just meet at a truck stop somewhere. I don't see a need to show how good of a caller and hunter I am by winning a contest. I could be wrong but I think that is more attractive to younger guys who want to prove something. Remember young is in the eye of the beholder. We can blame contests, but how about you tube, the videos we make, electronic callers that make everyone an expert, etc. Some of the tv shows are embarrassing and a joke. The almighty dollar at work. Who are those people. As long as we post pics and videos we will attract attention. Just a sign of the times and it isn't going away. I moved from Montana to Utah 2 years ago and talk about a nite and day difference. There are more coyote hunters in Utah than coyotes. Most places now by the first of November every coyote has heard every sound that Foxpro puts out. I am surprised that with the current generation that we don't have video game coyote hunting contests. That way they don't have to get off of the couch. I think that is where we should head. No blood and every shot will be a score and our self-esteem will skyrocket and we can feel good about ourselves. End of rant. I am glad I am as old as I am.
Posts: 51 | From: Bluffdale, UT | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2015 05:43 PM
quote:
It's your board, so to this pissing match I say "you win". Whatever.
Mark
Yeah, Thanks. That's what I wanted to hear.
Yes, whatever. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted March 13, 2015 07:52 PM
Because u can make $31,000 in one weekend..
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted March 14, 2015 01:15 AM
I have hunted a few contests in my time but never really got serious about it. They were more like keystone cops adventures. I understand those that hunt contests and do it n a serious nature. There are those that do it to prove they can, those that do it for the prize. and those that do it because they are of note either on television or printed media and need the endless self promotion. As a hunter I support their right to do so. I have always felt that low key is the way to do it and not to splash advertising all over the place, though they should be allowed in a perfect world . What they are doing is legal moral and ethical. Even our little campout I put signs that say hmbbbs. that's it. I do this for a few reasons its my property 362 days of the rest of the year and I don't like attention. I don't want anyone that would to bother us for that 3 or 4 days. Finally anyone that cant find it with that should not be away from home alone. We should as hunters stick together as a group we will or as we proven so far , perish. (edited because sister Mary gawdamit told me to)
[ March 14, 2015, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted March 14, 2015 05:17 AM
Once a long time ago while at Ben Avery shooting range I had this one asshole look at me like I was a POS because I hunted coyotes. He said something to the effect that it was wrong to not eat what you kill. I tried to explain the reason why coyote hunting benefits all big game hunting but he was a simpleton that didn't get it.
What was really sad is a friend who doesn't hunt and didn't even own a gun at that time asked me the same question: why hunt coyotes. I explained that I cannot get drawn for antelope and coyotes eat..." before I could finish the rest he got it. This coworker/friend has a good deal of intelligence obviously.
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Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 14, 2015 05:19 AM
The CSVCA is the forerunner of all predator hunting organizations. At one time there were about a thousand members scattered amongst sixteen chapters, some folded but about that many at any one time.
We had our annual banquet downtown Los Angeles at the Chalon Mart, a pretty big deal, suits and ties prevailed.
I don't remember the year but it was about 1971 or so that they had this idea. No more trophies, cash and merchandise instead.
The year before I won a belt buckle for placing in the top ten, and it was kind of a big deal. I also (with my partner) placed seventh that following year and won something like ten bucks. This was more like BFD, if you know what I mean?
Nobody liked it, faded away, and was never mentioned again. Thereafter, it was elaborate trophies and I have a room full of them.
Then, when I became Hunt Chairman, I did away with traditional trophies, these things were getting ridiculous, four foot tall, not cheap but what the hell are you going to do with them?
So, I started with mementoes western belt buckles, inscribed and knives. One year, Buck hunting knives engraved with your name, another year a folder, like the #110, also engraved, and one year completely custom hunting knives, with your name on it. (I didn't win one of those, that year, BTW) But there were also nice Buckles, something anybody would be proud to wear.
I usually had something like 800/900 dollars to work with, (entry fees) and never heard any negative comments. Everybody liked these keepsakes a lot better than a fucking trophy.
So, still a lot of effort went into the hunt, there was interest, but all good things must come to an end and, as usual, it came from inside.
There will always be people that want these things so bad they become obsessed. There is jealousy, petty shit coming from grown men and naturally, they start thinking that to win, must involve cheating? I can't say that I ever felt that way except for once, and that's a long story, and we took care of it.
But, at one time, I personally thought it was beyond belief, there was no way a team could kill ten animals in a weekend. Until I did it. Same thing with twenty animals, until I did it. And, all the stars have to be in alignment along with some luck and some skill.
We are talking about a long time, from the sixties to the late nineties, that I was involved. Many divergent opinions as to the direction of the Club, some with good intent, some suspect.
Once again, the stars aligned and certain people worked tirelessly to torpedo everything good and decent about the Club. The old timers couldn't be bothered and we sort of went out with a whimper. In other words, people within the Club were saying the same things as we read right here in this thread.
So, we had a board meeting, involving splitting the treasury and that was it; R.I.P. I personally got something like $300, as did everybody in our Chapter. And, that's the way it's been for whatever it has been, something like 15 years or so?
Until this Memorial Hunt. And, people I never heard of from San Diego and a few of the usual suspects, like Clever Gary. So they somehow got on the radar screen and all these do gooders got together and cleaned up this disgusting contest hunting shit. And, this hunt involved no money, just a perpetual trophy, but still, it's "a contest".
Well, as I said before, we had gone in the direction of low profile for several years already, when the State Organization was still intact. The details were closely held within the principles and none of it went out in the newsletter. We held check ins just over the border in either Arizona or Nevada. Actually worked pretty good for a few years, but with evil bastards like Clever Gary, they do not rest.
There we are, and still there are those that can't find the time to support what boiled down to an innocent activity. We started the whole thing and yet, to consider a prize of $31,000 is just such an abortion that it's hard to believe there is any similarity, whatsoever?
If you get enough money involved, ethics, morals, and honesty are the first things to suffer.
I really liked it, the whole enchilada. One year we flew up to northern Nevada for the State hunt. Pretty soon, there were rules against that, kind of like they have in Alaska.
Our hunts were a hell of a lot different from what we see today, total strangers not club members we interacted with all year long, rifle shoots, BBQ's raffles, and monthly meetings, chapter, state and board meetings. We knew everybody, it was nothing like what is going on with some of these big money hunts.
Sooner or later, somebody will come along and fuck up a good thing. Truthfully, I don't defend what the contest has become. It's a bastard evolution.
The title of this thread says it all.
Good huntig. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted March 14, 2015 11:36 AM
Except for when I was working in SE Asia I made all of the Pasadena club hunts and had fun on every one of them. I remember someone got caught cheating but I can't remember if it was someone from our chapter. A couple of guys found a fresh road killed coyote on the highway and staked it out. It didn't take long before someone came by and picked it up. They were followed and when they stopped they were confronted. As for myself I never suspected that anyone was cheating but I know some thought we were because we were regularly in the top 3. We didn't cheat, tho.
At one hunt we were the clear winners but the hunt chairman, I remember his name but won't divulge it, decided to count someone's kit fox that was killed legally in Nevada but no longer counted by the club as a coyote. Anybody that has killed a number of kits and coyotes can easily tell the difference but we were given second place. It was done intentionally because "we won too much."
Leonard......I've heard from a couple of sources that the CSCVA was put under by the guy you mentioned but I've never heard the story and I would like to.
We had a good organization with a lot of good people. I was sad to look for it and find it gone.
I agree about the way the hunts were handled. Fun. There were calling and shooting contests, too.
[ March 14, 2015, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Moe ]
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
Posts: 593 | From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2013
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 14, 2015 12:47 PM
Yeah, Chapter #1 was one of the first to fold. Maybe not the first but one of the first.
A lot of new guys could mistake a pup coyote and a kit fox. Especially @200 yards! We just never wasted a bullet on one, Nevada or Utah where they swear the Swift Fox is different. Looks the same to me?
Another thing, kit's are almost strictly nocturnal. I remember calling in a kit fox, daytime out by old 66, Bagdad area. It stands out because it's so rare, at least for me?
We had innocent fun, big deal rifle shoots, a campout every year up on the Owens. I'm telling ya, you just have to have a black heart to sabotage something that everybody enjoyed so much.
Moe, I could give you a blow by blow one day, over a beer.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted March 14, 2015 03:55 PM
I don't fault the guys who shot the kit fox. It was at high altitude so it had to be a mountain kit fox which is similar but not the same as the valley kit fox. They have a darker fur with a touch of gray. But the texture of the fur is the same and nothing like a coyote. The guy who was counting up the points knew the difference and just didn't want Don and me to win the hunt. The guys who shot it said it was the smallest coyote they'd ever seen. This was in November so there were no pups about. It was pure BS.
I was in the club well before the kit fox was protected and had killed a bunch of them. In fact, Art Parra and I were the ones who inadvertently got the kit fox protected. We killed 89 of them in 4 nights of calling in the San Joaquin Valley and there was a state biologist at the meeting when we turned in the tails. I was a kid hunting with Art and really didn't know a lot. A few years later when I was more mature I wouldn't have killed a kit because they're so easy. Sometimes we called in a dozen or more on a single stand. I will say, tho, when that biologist got them protected the pheasant population in the valley took a serious nose dive.
My regular partners and I had a lot of fun on those hunts. Yucking it up and just having some fun but we were serious once we took off.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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