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Author
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Topic: SWAT SHIT
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 14, 2014 08:09 AM
Conservatives, libertarians and liberals should all worry about the militarization of police
By John Stossel
I want the police to be better armed than the bad guys, but what exactly does that mean today?
Apparently it means the Pentagon and Department of Homeland Security equip even the tiniest rural police departments with massive military vehicles, body armor and grenade launchers. The equipment is surplus from the long wars we fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.
To a hammer, everything resembles a nail. SWAT (Special Weapons and Tactics) teams were once used only in emergencies such as riots or robberies where hostages were taken. But today there are more than 50,000 "no-knock raids" a year.
Government always grows, and government is force. Force is always dangerous.
It's not because crime got worse. There is less crime today. Crime peaked around 1990 and is now at a 40-year low. But as politicians keep passing new criminal laws, police find new reasons to deploy their heavy equipment.
Washington Post reporter Radley Balko points out that they've used SWAT teams to raid such threatening haunts as truck stops with video poker machines, unlicensed barber shops and a frat house where underage drinking was reported.
In New York City, these men in black raided standup comedian Joe Lipari's apartment.
"I had bad customer service at the Apple Store," Lipari told me in an interview for my upcoming TV special "Policing America." "So I bitched about it on Facebook. I thought I was funny. I quoted 'Fight Club,'" the 1999 movie about bored yuppies who attack parts of consumer culture they hate.
"People (on Facebook) were immediately responding that it was obviously from 'Fight Club,'" says Lipari. "It was a good time, until 90 minutes later, a SWAT team knocked on my door. Everyone's got their guns drawn."
It took only that long for authorities to deem Lipari a threat and authorize a raid by a dozen armed men. Yet, says Lipari, "if they took 90 seconds to Google me, they would have seen I'm teaching a yoga class in an hour, that I had a comedy show."
Lipari has no police record. If he is a threat, so are you.
SWAT raids are dangerous, and things often go wrong. People may shoot at the police if they mistake the cops for ordinary criminals and pick up guns to defend their homes against invasion. Sometimes cops kill the frightened homeowner who raises a gun.
Because America has so many confusing laws, and also because cops sometimes make mistakes, it's harder to assume -- as conservatives often do -- that as long as you behave yourself, you have nothing to fear.
The raids should also trouble libertarians who sometimes believe that government can mostly be trusted when it sticks to "legitimate" functions like running police, courts and the military.
Government always grows, and government is force. Force is always dangerous.
It's healthy for conservatives, libertarians and liberals alike to worry about the militarization of police. Conservatives worry about a repeat of incidents like the raids on religious radicals at Ruby Ridge and Waco, Texas. Liberals condemn police brutality like the recent asphyxiation death of a suspect at the hands of police in New York.
This is a rare issue where I agree with left-wing TV host Bill Maher. On his TV show last week, Maher ranted about no-knock raids "breaking up poker games, arresting low-level pot dealers."
Maher's right to point out that most SWAT raids are now done to arrest nonviolent drug offenders. "It's a guy who sells weed," says Maher. "You don't need to shoot his dog and crash through his window."
But they do. If cops continue to take a warlike us-versus-them approach to policing the population, they just might bring the left and right together. Government is reckless, whether it is intruding into our lives with byzantine regulations that destroy a fledgling business or with a flash-bang grenade like the one that critically wounded a child in a recent SWAT raid in Janesville, Georgia.
Regardless of our political leanings, we should be wary of big government in all its forms.
John Stossel is the host of "Stossel" (Thursdays at 9 PM/ET),
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 14, 2014 10:32 AM
It's a different world these days, that is for sure.
I've raised my kids to be fearful of police and never to trust them. That any contact with police no matter how "innocent" can end with them being harmed. To avoid police as much as possible. To not even call the police when a crime has been committed against us, unless absolutely necessary to get a case # for insurance purposes. Because, we know they aren't going to even attempt to do anything about the crime committed against us. But by inviting contact, we put ourselves in harms way
Just the way my family rolls.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 14, 2014 11:00 AM
Yeah, different world for damned sure! And, I wouldn't be quick to call paranoia, police have their own version of that attitude in Afghanistan and Iraq where they always have a plan to kill everybody they meet. Only, in this case, they are looking for clues to charge you with some type of crime, even if you are a victim and are reporting a crime. They really do. Be careful what you say to a cop, <regrettably> they are not your friend. On the other hand, police world view is "US AGAINST THEM" meaning the entire population, non-cop. And, it's incurable, they can't change and don't want to. Personally, I could never live that way, it's really slanted....to be charitable.
Good hunting. El Bee
But, this militarization shit is bad news.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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KaBloomR
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4252
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posted August 14, 2014 12:22 PM
I certainly agree with both DAA and LB. And the "US AGAINST THEM" really seems to ring true - they sure as hell don't just mean the bad guys.....
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"It always gets a helluva lot worse before it gets any better"
Posts: 302 | From: Utah | Registered: Nov 2012
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted August 14, 2014 03:56 PM
I totally agree with all comments above. To echo Leonard, be very careful of what you say to a cop, no matter how harmless you may think it is.
If you have to answer questions, be short and direct. Don't try to be their friend. You're not and never will be. Even during a routine traffic stop, they're gonna try and dig to find more.
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 14, 2014 05:42 PM
This is a video that was posted several years ago that is well worth the 49 minutes it takes to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted August 15, 2014 05:10 AM
I heard the police used an armored vehicle in Ferguson MO which really brought this issue to new heights. The cops classify civilians into two categories: Assholes and potential assholes. Today the powers that be have full power over us citizens with us citizens have no recourse against the all mighty OZ. The EPA used a swat team to impound an 85 Land Rover because it didn't meet the clean air act. Recently the EPA stopped the US Military from selling jeeps and 6x6s to us civilians for the same reason. I expect they will soon be conducting raid operations against everyone that owns one of these historic vehicles. Of course since the elimination the exclusionary rules regarding search warrants they get to look for illegal drugs, weapons etc despite the warrant being for minor violation and I'm sure they will search one's home to the fullest extent allowed and then some.
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Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 15, 2014 12:08 PM
Leonard,
On the same Stossel show, he was talking to a guy about the Marine that got killed/murdered by the cops in AZ a while back. We had a discussion here on it. Anyways, the other guy says that one of the cops stumbled and accidentally fired his weapon, then all the other cops joined in killing the Marine in his home.
Remember they swore they saw his muzzle flashes, but later acknowledged that his rifle had never fired a round and was still on safe after they executed him.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 16, 2014 03:04 AM
Guys, Anyone who points a gun at police is going to get shot. The police can't tell if the weapon is loaded or unloaded, if the safety is on or off, etc.
I hate to break the news to you, but that's how it is.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 16, 2014 09:05 AM
Good to know, 49. However, for me, it raises a different question. One I have never figured out. Seems that police know that a gun is being pointed at them, but they know there is a grace period in which they can draw their weapon and kill somebody because of the pointing. It's a different set of conditions. On the one hand, you have some jerk that simply points a weapon, (or a perceived weapon) at a cop, and he apparently thinks it is not a particularly hostile act. The cop, on the other hand is operating on a completely different set of values or conditions in which they have been given the green light to draw and kill.
I know what they say, (and I have been around guns a lot longer than 49) that you never point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it. But, when the other end of the perception is a cop, he seems to have a wide latitude as to when a gun is pointed at him. Meaning, a perceived weapon in the hands of a civilian is a cardinal threat and it's a matter of semantics, as to exactly where the barrel is "pointed".
Yes, I know that's the way it is. My attitude is vastly different. I'm not even truly sure if I could kill a human being if justifiably threatened. Not so, a cop. It's in their DNA, one split second from pulling the trigger, every day and twice on Sunday.
I remember once, shot a coyote within a couple hundred yards of the gate to a military installation. Thought nothing of it and drove off down the road. Twenty minutes and twenty miles down the road, here comes the sheriff, pulled us over. He came up and talked to the driver, while I was in the passenger seat. I looked in the side mirror and there was another guy crawling on the ground and as he got up to the door, stood up suddenly, gun drawn. Of course, I didn't blow him away, not in my DNA. But he saw a Colt Commander sitting on the dash and asked if he could look at it, and I agreed.
This all because some jerk in a guard shack, middle of the night called in that somebody was shooting at him! So the cop sniffed my 45 and said, nope, "hasn't been fired". Of course there was three long guns in the back of the camper that HAD been fired, but he didn't know about them. Of course, he didn't give it back to me, and we all played dumb, but this is the desert and it's midnight and there is nobody else around, so....they didn't know what to do.
Just then, our friends, driving an identical green Dodge, drove by slowly. This, (understandably) really fucked up their description of the "getaway vehicle". We had pulled off on a dirt road just out of sight of the guard shack and made a stand, killed a coyote, which was laying at my feet while talking to cop #2. But, all the gate guard knew is after hearing a shot, a few minutes later, a green Dodge pulls out onto the highway, at what he assumed to be get-a-way speed.
So, there we were. I am not exaggerating when I say those cops had their mouths wide open as our friends rolled by at one mile per hour. No explain, no nothing, no more conversation, they just said we could go, which we did. Watching in the mirror, we were a couple miles down the road before they turned around and went back to the donut shop.
What were we talking about? Oh yeah. That the popo can point guns at citizens, BUT the citizen is not allowed to kill the cop for doing so. Even though he probably had no intention of actually pulling the trigger. (just like some citizens)
I don't know what the answer is but like 49 said, THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted August 16, 2014 02:56 PM
quote:
Guys, Anyone who points a gun at police is going to get shot. The police can't tell if the weapon is loaded or unloaded, if the safety is on or off, etc.
Thanks Leonard, for pointing out that double standard. I don't believe Id ever considered that before. Seems pretty elemental not to get some neurological airtime.
I've been drawn down on by, I believe 3 cops, all same and only instance. I was sure I was in the right and simply laid my piece on the ground and assumed the position while they sorted things out. Had any one of those cops perceived my intentions as anything different than putting that piece on the ground, I doubt I'd be writing this. I guess it's all about roles. We're ordinary citizens and they're badged and sworn cops. We're supposed to be able to trust them. I know that I don't have that trust to the degree that I did 40 years ago.
I can easily imagine a scenario where I think it's going to be them or me....I'll try to get the first round off.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 16, 2014 04:11 PM
Perhaps there is a double standard, if that's how you want to look at it.
But for now, the United States courts have upheld the legality of police officers shooting those who point guns at them.
Yep, that's the way it is.
[ August 16, 2014, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 17, 2014 08:29 AM
The court system also found OJ Simpson not guilty. Bill Ayers got off too.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted August 17, 2014 10:02 AM
That's a good point Dan, oj bought his freedom with cash & color. billie airhead is just flat out lucky.
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mike
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trapper2
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3651
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posted August 17, 2014 12:48 PM
I have only had a cop pull a gun on me one time. I was shooting beaver in a city park, call police and told dispatch that I was there, two hours later when the sun is up a cop car pulls up to my pickup, I get up and head that way, had one arm in a sling so I had my shotgun under my armpit draped over my arm while holding a stool, barny pulls a pistol on me and tells me to drop the shotgun, so I drop it soft as I can and start to try and explain who I am and what I am doing. I got a uniform shirt on and steal the guy doesn't believe me, finally call dispatch and she says she forgot to let the guys in the field know I called and then the guy tells me I should do a better job of letting people know when I will be there. so no I don't trust the law very far at all, on the other hand most county sheriffs I have delt with seem a lot more down to earth then the city and state bozos
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nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong
Posts: 248 | From: okla | Registered: Sep 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 17, 2014 02:17 PM
quote:
can easily imagine a scenario where I think it's going to be them or me....I'll try to get the first round off. JIMANEZ
Well, when it happens and you need to do it, do not forget the excellent advice of G Gordon Liddy: "aim for the head" ....and for which he was roundly condemned by all sorts of Liberal types.
Meaning, since citizens are not allowed "Cop Killer Bullets" you will have a hard time defeating their *bulletproof vest*, so.... (pretty obvious) shoot them in the head.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: *assuming most handgun cartridges. Just about any hi power rifle round will drill through a vest.
[ August 17, 2014, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted August 16, 2014 09:43 AM
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