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Author
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Topic: Another Situation For You Guys: TeenBoy Shot by Police
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted April 14, 2010 11:22 AM
Cdog I was referring to what others on this thread suggested, which was to leave altogether. Just packing up and leaving is not a viable option.
I happen to agree with your suggestion, and had I been in command at that scene that is most likely the course of action I would have taken, absent other factors that we may not be privy to. Establishing a perimeter in this case makes a lot of sense. There was no one else in the area at the time that we know of, and he was a danger only to himself and the officers on scene. I would have called in a trained negotiator however.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted April 14, 2010 11:55 AM
How does a negotiator deal with somebody shooting at them? The kid took a shot at his own mother, I'd wager a negotiator would've been in his shooting path too. Just curious.
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 14, 2010 12:03 PM
Tundra, you are still laboring under the assumption that everything in that report was graven in stone. I think facts and perceptions will change because it, (the story) sorta stinks. Ya know?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted April 14, 2010 12:41 PM
True, most news has a spin on it and truth doesn't always seem to matter to some journalists. Either way, I am curious how police would get a negotiator to function in such a situation. Maybe a loud speaker behind bullet-proof shields?
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 14, 2010 01:20 PM
I was thinking a loudspeaker from behind cover. This would all depend on the scene, and if the layout permitted such an attempt. Again, without the benefit of being in there in person, it is difficult to say for sure.
A few years ago we had a guy in a truck holding a gun to his own head. The negotiator attempted to talk the guy out from the patrol car PA system while our SWAT team waited behind the truck ready to go. It didn't work however, and the guy ended up offing himself.
This was a different situation but the potential for the guy to fire on us was there. But you may be right Tundra, depending on the boy's angle of fire it could have made negotiation too difficult. The article does say the boy fired on his mother.
Agsin, it's difficult to say not being there. This is why I don't like to MMQB.
[ April 14, 2010, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted April 14, 2010 01:43 PM
Thanks 4949, I was just curious if there was a SOP for such instances.
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 14, 2010 03:10 PM
TW, There usually is, and "shoot the bastard so we don't miss lunch" ain't it.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 14, 2010 04:18 PM
Okay, give 49er a break, once in a while. He might be normal, you know? With feelings.
BTW. Donuts, Lance. It's coffee and donuts break.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted April 14, 2010 04:58 PM
Lance summed it up pretty well in his assesment that "Hell, there were five grown men there, that couldn't out think this minor?"
I ain't buyin' any of this shit they did what they had to, christ all mighty, he was a 14 year old kid and they were miles from anywhere on an old ranch property.
They could have done a lot of things in that situation, but killin' that kid wasn't one of them.
[ April 14, 2010, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posts: 1630 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 14, 2010 07:13 PM
Well maybe I will respond to Cdog and AZ-Hunter tomorrow, after I have had a chance to cool off a bit.
Have a good night gentlemen.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 14, 2010 07:28 PM
Okay, just don't forget, you started it, so these guys assume that you are man enough to listen to opposing points of view. Right?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 14, 2010 07:54 PM
Elbee, me and Andy had nothing to do with it, this time.
Thing to remember is cops is human and they give cops guns and authority, it's bound to get abused.
Hint to 49; talk cop on cop forums and coyote on coyote forums. Unless you just like to fight, then by all means, enjoy.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 14, 2010 08:01 PM
My point wasn't direceted at 4949. I believe that he and I are mostly on the same sheet of music. My remark was more at the LEO's involved in the incident. Again, I wasn't there and cannot address the particulars that occurred in that incident. Then again, whether FD or EMS, or the relatively short time I was with the SO, there was NO way to prepare for each and every incident you could and would face on the job. But, you operated within SOP's and standing orders that approximated the most diverse array of potential situations as you could so that, when face to face with something, you had options with which you were comfortable.
Years in the FD taught me that SO, PD and EMS pretty much prioritized things the same way - conservation of life, then property. That, and "you perform under stress only as well as you practice".
As has been said, this young man was pretty much isolated in a relatively remote area. They brought his mom in and he took a shot at her. I think I would have looked at the situation and wondered why the boy ran off to begin with. Might it have been something to do with mom? Sure, bring mom in and get familiarized with the local expert on this boy - his mom. Sounds to me like she tried to tell them important information that was dismissed by the guys on-scene. It would have been wiser for them to bring in a trained negotiator who could have tried to establish a rapport with the young man and attempted, in time, to earn his trust and talk him out of there with no one getting hurt. Instead, there seems to have been a bunch of well-intending LEO's who fell into group think and lost sight of the desired outcome - no loss of life. They failed. And again, I think a civil court will ultimately have a very significant say as to just how well this incident was managed. IMO, any time you end up with a dead body, it wasn't handled very well.
Again, I take this personally as my son has some very similar problems. And, as was the case here, arrogant and uninformed self-designated experts in positions of making decisions chose to dismiss his problems as being fictitious or irrelevant. Same thing has happened to my son and, as of today, those that chose wrong will come to very much regret their short-sightedness. Can't say what's going on, but I will say it involves lawyers and federal agencies that give the thumbs up or down to whether our local school receive literally millions of dollars in federal funds to cover their operation. I'll lock the damned school house doors to ensure that the people that have caused my son grief are held accountable.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted April 14, 2010 09:53 PM
Ive pretty much stayed out of this fray on purpose, at least more than I normally do. LOL
Maybe they could have done something different? Who knows? Im sure we dont have the whole story. The fact that he shot at his mom still holds a lot of water with me. That shit aint right and makes me think there was less chance for another outcome that what we are seeing?
Its pretty easy to Monday morning quarterback. These situations are a lot like that deal with the helicopter smokin those ragheads. Those guys in the copter didnt have the luxary of hindsight. Maybe these cops did and maybe they didnt. Like I said, to me at least, when the fired at his mother, that should tell you something.
I dont, however, understand why the possum cop was getting out in the open? And why that would trigger the shot. The shot may have had to come anyway, but what was up with him giving him a clear shot? See, there is just too much that dont make sense and we dont know. Walking away and letting the boy stumble in when he came to his senses as someone suggested, I dont see that as an option. He already showed that he was capable of killing. What if he didnt stumble home? He may have went on a rampage somewhere else. Who knows? If I were the cop there, Im not saying I would have killed him or not. But I dont think I would have just said, hell boys, leave him be. He will be alright and come in at supper. That makes no sense.
See 49, Im not a LEO hater. I call it like I see it. Sometimes folks like it and sometimes they dont.
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Andy
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 14, 2010 10:33 PM
It's a siege, Andy. We aren't talking about going home or getting some donuts. Just camp out and wait him out....kinda like they did at Waco. Oh wait, that one sorta went to hell too, didn't it? I think the justification was the poor kids were being mistreated so Reno HAD to do something; like burn the friggin' fort down to the ground,killing every last one of 'em. Sometimes, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. BARF!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted April 15, 2010 05:11 AM
quote:
Okay, just don't forget, you started it, so these guys assume that you are man enough to listen to opposing points of view. Right?
Yes Sir absolutely. This is why I wanted to cool off a bit prior to responding.
Quote from the first article I posted:
quote:
"They told him (the boy) they were looking for him," West said. "He said 'That's me.' They said, 'Your parents are concerned about you. You need to come with us.' The boy then drew a weapon."
The boy had a rifle and a handgun and refused to go. The teen then allegedly fired shots as the officers retreated.
The LEO's could have shot him right there. They chose not to and gave him some space.
Another quote from the same article:
quote:
Officers followed him to the second camp, urging him to put down the weapons but the boy continued firing.
The officers could have shot him a second time. Hmm....there seems to be a pattern developing here.
Another quote from the same article:
quote:
He ran to a third spot, where he climbed to the top of a barn and shot at officers.
AGAIN, the officers would have been legally justified in firing on the kid in their own defense.
Another quote:
quote:
Dozens of shots were fired in an area spanning a mile and a half, West said. At one point, deputies brought the boy's mother to the scene to try to get her son to surrender, but the teen took a shot at her, West said
All these shots fired (dozens), and deputies still aren't trying to kill the kid. Sounds like they used restraint to me. Oh, they even brought the boy's mother in to try and talk him out of this rampage. As Cdog pointed out, this may not have been the best thing to do, but shows the officers were TRYING to resolve this peacefully.
Final quote:
quote:
"He had a clear shot at a game warden," West said. Fearing for the game warden's life, law enforcement officers fired and shot the boy, who died at the scene.
This is an unfortunate and tragic ending. I don't know how the boy had gotten a bead on the game warden because I wasn't there. But to my way of thinking, the officers tried to use a great amount of restraint here. I am not saying they handled it perfectly, but having been involved in a few incidents myself I know that they never do run perfect.
I have a 14 year old boy myself, who is a pretty damn good shot. I love him dearly. But if God forbid he ever shoots at police officers, I couldn't blame them for returning fire. Especially after they were to give him all the chances they gave the boy in question here.
If you guys think I only stand up for fellow LEO's, I will put up a couple links from GT where I condemned the actions of other police officers who were in the wrong. These include the shooting on the Tilman Bridge in New Orleans during Katrina as well as the incident Dan Carey provided a link to in Maryland.
I call 'em like I see 'em.
[ April 15, 2010, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 15, 2010 05:59 AM
I'm not gonna change my mind just because Hootie and Vic think differently no more than I would if 49 disagreed with me.
He quit being a "14 YO kid" when he picked up the guns and fired at anyone. Whether he had a bad homelife, his GF found new love, he had a brain tumor or his dog was giving the orders, he had to be contained and with the evidence given, that meant killing him, as sad as it is.
Lance I remember a bit about your ordeal, would you have let your son shoot at someone, given his condition, or would you have stopped him given the chance?
I mean no disrespect just trying to follow your thinking.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted April 15, 2010 07:16 AM
I didn't get an electric train for Christmas when I was a kid, and boy does that ever piss me off. Probably cause my ADHD, but nobody knew about that disorder back then. I had a rifle and shotgun when I was ten years old, but never thought about shooting anybody with em.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted April 15, 2010 07:25 AM
With the assumption based on the article that the kid wasn't on his meds and his hearing might have been impared, the whole negotiation thing might have been pointless anyways (it was for his mom).
It seems to me that all they had to do was wait until the kid was out of ammo. At the rate he was firing, it couldn't have lasted that much longer.
This is an interesting discussion and without any of us being there, it's tough to make a call.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 15, 2010 08:15 AM
Yeah, Tundra. Aaron told me he tried calling you about twenty times to set up a hunt. Don't you get your messages at work, or were you blowing the kid off?
I'm just glad this kid, (in TX) wasn't black or the shooters would definitely be in trouble!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted April 15, 2010 08:36 AM
Leonard,
That's lousy, I moved to a new building and have a new number. I thought I gave him my cell number as well. When does he leave for Germany? If he's into fishing, I'll have an open seat for some Salmon when the rivers thaw and the fish are running. Bummer, I feel bad about not getting in touch with him. I'll give him a call and touch bases with him about setting something up.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 15, 2010 08:41 AM
Total, committed fisherman , and no, you didn't give him a cell phone number. He leaves sometime in September, I think?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted April 15, 2010 08:56 AM
I just spoke with him, he's definitely into doing some fishing. Come end of June/July I told him I'd take him and his wife/daughter out to get some Kings on rod & reel. He has my cell number now, so we're all set for contact information. Thanks for letting me know he was trying to call.
[ April 15, 2010, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: TundraWookie ]
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted April 15, 2010 12:11 PM
quote:
This is an interesting discussion and without any of us being there, it's tough to make a call.
I'd say that comment pretty much sums this whole thread up fairly well...
It really is a shame that the kid was having a hard time and that his actions forced a situation that he didn't survive. I don't think anyone would have wished for the outcome but it happened and it's too late to change now.
I also know that most everyone here could have put a shot on the target to take the kid out without killing him. Once the call to terminate is made it's all over! That's just the way it is...
Nikonut
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 15, 2010 05:05 PM
Tom, No disrepect taken. Yours is a valid position that I can't say I disagree with. And yes, it appears that the cops gave him as much room on the run as they could, and then some. It's too bad to good men are foced to make on-the-fly decisions such as these to pick up real world messes when the inevitable shit happens. If life only happened in 30-minute periods with the conflicts all resolved before they roll the final credits. I wouldn't expect anyone to risk their life for my son, but I'd hope they werern't in a hurry to take it either.
You never know how you'll respond to something like this - when another human being unleashes violence upon you.
When my son was first in the deepest and darkest part of the changes that occurred after his head injury, he attacked me one night. We had an argument over the phone and he flat out told me to call the cops because "I'm coming home to kick your ass." I hung up, knew that he was at least six miles away and called 911 to tell them to have an officer or two enroute and why. Four minutes later, I walked out onto my front stoop and he came to a screeching halt in front of the house, jumped out of his car and came toward me with his right fist reared back.
Freeze.
What do you do? I outweigh him by roughly a hundred pounds, and my reach is about six inches longer than his.
A lot of thoughts go through your head about then and a lot of thoughts went through my mind in the 2-3 seconds it took him to cross that front lawn: If I do what I feel like doing, I'll hurt him or worse. If I hit him first, I go to jail, too, regardless of his intent. If I go to jail for felony domestic battery, my gun rights are on the chopping block, as is my job.
He landed one good punch and shattered the cartilage in my left ear. At that point, I went to trying to contain him, picked him up in a bear hug and carried him off the front steps to the front lawn where neither of us would be hurt, but not until after he had tried to push me through the glass storm door and over the wrought iron porch railing. He pounded me on the back and against the back of the head, but when he wriggled out of my grasp and realized that none of that had so much as phased me one bit, he got real smart and chose to disengage. He ran four miles to a friend's house where I found him and called the Sheriff's Department who arrested him. I knew he was at a friend's house becasue I went that way and saw him climb into a car a half-mile in front of me. The guy I was with yelled, "Get 'em!" and I rolled to a stop, knowing that chasing them would only make them run. I knew where he was heading and, despite what we'd been through that evening, I knew that once he got there he would calm down and not resist. I could have succumbed to my testosterone from square one and none of it would have ended up the same. Probably would have ended up far, far worse. It's a gamble you make at the time and yes, everything is in slow motion as you consider your options, consider their various outcomes and pick (hope for)the one that looks best.
BTW, that first night I told about, the cops took 43 minutes to get there, and we only have 7k people in a town that's roughly 2 square miles.
Sometimes, life sucks.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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