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Author Topic: 22 CM
CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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Icon 1 posted July 25, 2018 06:03 PM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Now, what else can we argue about?
6SAUM!!!!! 22 Creedmore is sooooo yesterday. The 6 saum and soon 6 PRC are the new coyote rounds for the new age contest hunters.

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R.Shaw
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Icon 1 posted July 25, 2018 06:12 PM      Profile for R.Shaw           Edit/Delete Post 
No, I agree Geordie, not much difference and it definately is not apples to apples. I never shot a coyote with the one I had, but just had to see for myself. LOL

For what it is worth on case capacity.

22-243 ai.....51.9
22-243......50.8
22-250 ai.....48.4
22 bleedmore.....50.0

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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561

Icon 1 posted July 25, 2018 06:49 PM      Profile for TOM64           Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a link that I found interesting, Stick is as hard on calibers as any I know of and he's getting 3225 fps with the 88 gr ELD molly'd.
http://asrealasitgets.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/209620/gonew/1/A_Lovely_Fork_In_The_Road.html#UNREAD
My 22-250AI only has a 22" barrel on it and 33 something is as fast as I can drive the 75 Amax but I haven't played with anything but RL15, 17 and RL19.

I pop 400 yard steel easy enough and 600 yards is not a problem from a bench but 800 yard coyotes from field positions ain't happening for me.

Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 25, 2018 07:00 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I still don't know the exact case capacity of my 22-243Middlested but it's somewhere in that ballpark, more or less. Probably right in the middle between 22-243 and the 22-243Ackley? I don't even know what was the exact motivation behind that cartridge?

I think this Middlested is about a couple grains more capacity than either of my 22-250Ackleys. However, considering all those differences in barrel length and the fact that I select my propellant based on accuracy rather than velocity, one 22-250AI has a velocity advantage over the Middlested of 100fps. Go figure. Some barrels are fast and some are accurate and some are slow. Who knew?

Good hunting. El Bee

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Eddie
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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 03:58 AM      Profile for Eddie   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
If you guys would just let ( the one who shall not be name) back on he could line you guys out on the best coyote hunting rig. [Eek!] [Big Grin]
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knockemdown
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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 04:03 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
IMHO, the entire premise of that 22Creed article is flawed, for one very simple, yet glaringly obvious reason. That being:

Author compares a (slow twist) .22-243Win, shooting a 52SMK, to his new 22Creed with a 1:8 that'll shoot a 75-80. In effect, he ignored how comparing two wildly different bullet weights & styles factored in, and instead attributed killing performance improvement to the change in cartridge?

For one, ya can't pick a shit-azz killin' bullet, then blame it on the cartridge when it kills like shit.

Second, the glaringly obvious question. Why didn't author just build a .22-243Win on a 1:8, and shoot the same 80gr bullets that makes the 22Creed such a 'devastating killer'? [Confused]

Obviously, author already had brass & dies for .22-243Win. So, all he needed was for his smith to run a throating reamer in behind the one he used the first time, to better suit heavier bullets from a 1:8. My logical deduction skills say that woulda been the easiest path to an 80 @3500+...

I even recall a thread on the old hide where I pointed to that author that I'd been shooting a 1:7.7twist .22-243 on coyotes, and provided performance #s to show the heavier bullet was superior to what he was experimenting with his (slow twist) 52SMK launching .22-243. You know, the one he complained about in the article. Maybe he forgot that exchange?

Just sayin, this decision to change to an entirely new cartridge, which required (at the time) necking down all the way from 6.5mm, when he was already tooled up for .22-243Win just don't make no sense to me?

Furthermore, the notion that the .22-243Win somewhat 'finicky' to find a load for was certainly not my experience. Nor was it the experience of those I consulted with before building mine. So, there's that, too...

Lastly, cases have a 'hierarchy' of sorts. It relates directly to capacity, with the scientific logic behind it , as follows:

When run at equal pressure, to push the same bullet, the larger case will produce more speed. All the time, every time...

This is basically common knowledge,

Therefore, when one intentionally chooses a smaller case, they must, by default, run at a higher case pressure, and/or use a faster burning powder to generate the speed to match, or beat the larger case.

That fact runs 180 degrees counter to the notion of any perceived improvement in throat, or barrel life, when dropping down in case capacity to achieve a given speed from a certain bullet.

Simply stated, ya gotta rev smaller motor, harder/faster, to beat the bigger motor to push a given "x" mass a certain speed...

And if a mild shoulder angle of the .243Win parent case was truly the culprit of throat woes, then ya just AI it. BOOM, ya got sharper shoulder, and another grain or two,of capacity to enjoy....

Bonus of the AI being, that lil bit of extra capacity allows for running SLOWER burn rate powders,that have a more 'cool' burn rate, to generate speed. So, by going AI, both the sharper shoulder AND extra capacity work in concert to mitigate throat erosion, thereby improving overall barrel life...

But, what do I know?

P.s. I have capacities written down, but I'm outta pocket.

[ July 26, 2018, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 04:56 AM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the feedback fellas.

Glad to see that capacity listing the CM as closer to the .243 than the '250AI.

Just couldn't wrap my head around the velocities being reported coming from "nearly identical" capacity to the .22-250AI.

But, then too, I love the .22-250AI, been shooting it a long time. Have worn out a pair of 29", 8 twist barrels (in about three months each...) and am most of the way through my second 12T, 27" barrel. Wore out multiple factory vanilla .22-250 barrels too.

I do have some experience with the '250 case. And I have to say, I have never been able to get the kind of velocity out of any of mine that I see reported on the internet. My 27" 12T's, for instance, neither one of them has been able to reach 4K with 55's. Well, backup a second, not without ruining brass in a few shots. But all those barrels I've worn out by starting with 200 pieces of new brass. That was easy with the 8 twists, neither of them lasted a thousand shots. The 12's are averaging about 2,500 rounds each though and 200 pieces of brass gets that done with life to spare.

So, maybe I could match internet velocity, if I was willing to throw away my carefully prepped brass? But I ain't...

- DAA

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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.

Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

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Leonard
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Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 06:22 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I can't get interested in these quests when it takes a left turn with long heavy bullets and fast twist barrels. It seems to involve something other than basic hunting coyotes, or tangentially? I'm ok with seeking more velocity and an improved ballistic coefficient, but how, exactly, does it relate to calling coyotes? If these experiments are more helpful in rockchucking, then I understand.

I think it would be helpful to state our motivation? There has to be a reason beyond sitting on the ground and calling a coyote because I don't see where this level of performance is necessary? If you want to pot a coyote that's mousing out in the field, that's another application unrelated to a normal coyote stand.

Most often, when I pick a spot to sit down and call a coyote, I won't have an 800 yard shot anywhere in front of me. That's another thing. I remember while hunting with Higgins, that he would talk about some coyote he saw that dropped down the side of a hill 600/800 yards away. Myself, I'm concentrating on the field of view a couple hundred yards out, if that? Yes, in Montana, I've seen the videos where they pick up a little flyspeck of movement and that coyote is still 15 minutes away at a dead run. That's nice and if I happen to spot the movement, all well and good, but it's really not my focus. To me, when you are gazing way out there at the horizon, that's when you miss an animal that has busted out of cover right in front of you. I guess everybody is different, but in dealing with heavy cover, the game is won and lost if you aren't ready for the unexpected, right in front of you, not to mention the cat that hasn't moved at all but who's head suddenly appears beside a bush and he might have been there for 30 seconds or three minutes. You aren't doing yourself any favors if you are scanning the side of a mountain a half a mile away. I hope I'm getting my point across,you will do both of those things on a 12 minute stand but where is your priority?

So, I don't usually have a 29" barrel on a coyote stand, more like 26". A 55 grain bullet is a reasonable choice when you can't see more than 200 yards and in 50% of your field of view, it's more like 100 yards. We are down in the weeds, not hunting from the mountaintop and picking off an unsuspecting coyote at somewhere around 800 yards. I know that I am setting the parameters of my argument for my benefit but again, do we really need a 75 grain bullet to take a poke at a coyote thats 800 yards away. I don't get it, why we are even talking about it? Straighten me out, somebody?

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 09:47 AM      Profile for Brent Parker   Email Brent Parker         Edit/Delete Post 
I plan to build a .22 Creedmoor. I already have the reamer and the go/ no go gauges. Its more for hunting in some open areas I have were shots past 600 are possiable. A fast twist barrel has been my preference for years. Reguardless of caliber and distances shot. I still feel a fast twist barrel kills better.
I moved to AZ. with only a .17 Remington with a 20" barrel and killed the snot out of coyotes with it. Anything under 300 hundred yards died with boring regularity. I played with 19, 20 and 22 calbiers along the way but could never see what they offered a fur hunter over a .17 Remington.
I started denning and decided to run a plain jane .243. It still kills coyotes with authority. With the right bullet i could and would use it for a fur rifle. Its by no means a flat shooter and i personally dont care for light bullets in that application. I have now moved up to a .260 Remington. I shot a coyote this year a 852. My longest coyote to date. We all have different terrain and objectives. Even fur hunting i dont care for a coyote that stands out there at 600 and barks and thinks hes safe. Ive got something for his money ass. With a heavy bullet i dont care about angles. It will break him down.
Now to be honest i no longer have a .17. Nothing wrong with it but a fella offered more money than i thought it was worth. So now in country that shooting shouldnt be much past 200 or so i use a plain ol .223. Last year i switched to 60 v maxes. Shot 63 with it. Lost 1. I also use a .223 competition hunting during daylight hours. It hasnt cost us a coyote yet. As a matter of fact i think it helps us. Being suppressed its quiet enough that we shoot enough doubles on stand were 1 comes in and we kill it and another minute of 2 another shows up and we kill it. I'm cutting a 22-250 to 18" the same length as my .223 and ill compare noise levels. If i think its close enough i may try it but it a 14 twist so only 55 grains for now. If its quiet enough ill build one with a 8 twist and run 65 sierra gamekings.

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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 10:49 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, there's the other side of the coin I was looking for?

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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Eddie
Knows what it's all about
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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 02:48 PM      Profile for Eddie   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
If you guys would just let ( the one who shall not be name) back on he could line you guys out on the best coyote hunting rig. [Eek!] [Big Grin]
Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 03:13 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
The 'un-named one' hunts with a shottie ??????

[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 03:14 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
He’s been kinda quiet lately. Says he’d making big money selling dogs. I think he mentioned $3,000 for one? That’s seems like big money to me?

Good hunting. El Bee

Edit: no shottie as far as I know? He’s huge into 17 Predator I think

[ July 26, 2018, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2018 05:55 PM      Profile for R.Shaw           Edit/Delete Post 
Had Tim been involved in this discussion, it would have ended 2.75 pages ago.
Posts: 542 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Eddie
Knows what it's all about
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 04:03 AM      Profile for Eddie   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
He ain't selling them redbones for that much is he? I've ran a many coondog in my day ain't never seen a redbone that was worth a dam.
Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 04:45 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Capacity depends on who's brass you measuring.

To compare, let's keep Lapua brass as the constant.

My fired .22-243Win brass avg: 53.4 grains H2o
My fired .22-243AI brass avg: 55.0grains H2o

Fired 6.5Creed brass avg: 51.2grains

Now, if ya neck that brass down, to make 22Creed, you're gonna lose volume. So, I think 50-50.5grains is a safe extrapolation?

Then, I'll defer to Randy's measurement of his .22-250AI @ 48.4gr.

Again, Lapua-Lapua comparison.

Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 05:04 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I beg your pardon! My Redbone was the best dog I ever had. Definitely an alpha, would never allow another dog to sniff her ass. Anyway, that's a bold blanket statement, maybe there could have been one or two that were worth a damn.

Fred, I can appreciate your statement, it's nice to compare Lapua to Lapua, rather than apples and oranges. However, if what we got ain't Lapua, but in fact is Winchester, can't we at least derive some useful knowledge? It might not help classify or rank who's the biggest dick in town but volume's volume, theoretically. The answer to that question is; "he who shall not be named", by the way. And, rest assured, he has weighed in with an opinion on the subject, and for $1.98, today only, I can provide that wisdom to those that require it. Tomorrow, it will cost you more, I'm just not sure how much more?

So, I guess I can fill a case with water and find out since nobody wants to take a guess? BRB

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: Eddie, apparently you are not as informed as the rest of us? Have you not seen, WHERE THE RED FERN GROWS?

[ July 27, 2018, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31307 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 05:24 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard, one can pick & choose cases to skew results.
But by keeping same/same, ya sorta get a lay of the land regarding capacity. That being:

.22-250AI ~1.5gr less than 22Creed
.22-243Win ~2.5gr more than 22Creed

So, that's pretty much where it fits, sammiched between those two known cartridges.

Then, ya re-visit performance expectations. Sure, you can push a smaller case hard to near match a larger case, but your gonna pay a pressure penalty. And, as Dave mentioned, you're gonna pay for that in brass (and barrel) life...

Supposedly, running small primer pocket brass allows running higher pressure without unduly damaging them, so that's why you're seeing this new Creed brass come with SPPs. Basically, taking a page outta Lapuas playbook, as their 'x47L' cartridges all rock SPPs.

Still, there's no replacement for displacement. In my opinion, anyway...

[ July 27, 2018, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 06:15 AM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

Still, there's no replacement for displacement. In my opinion, anyway...

That's a fact, Jack.

The SPP's are interesting. Was a prominent feature and semi fail way back in the day with the original CHeeta.

The CM seems like a pretty good way to go out of the box, from what I'm gathering here. Being all setup and familiar with the .22-250AI, I don't see myself ever interested in one, I'd go for the .243 case instead (which I am also already all setup for). But starting from scratch, I can sure see the appeal.

- DAA

--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.

Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 09:46 AM      Profile for UTcaller   Email UTcaller         Edit/Delete Post 
It really does sound like the 17-204,17 Predator,17 Tactical,17 Remington debate. Which one is best? They all kill Coyotes well. A grain or two of powder more or less isn’t going to change that. Might get alittle better trajectory from one than the other but they’re all 300 yard guns. Same thing with the 22-243,220 swift, 22 cm, 22-250 AI, just add a couple or three hundred yards past the 300 yard range of the 17’s.

Good Hunting Chad

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Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 01:43 PM      Profile for Eddie   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Yep I seen it and I bet you cried at the end LB [Big Grin]
Oh...don't get me started on redbones. Had to chase one for two miles (on foot) one night after it took off on a deer. When I got back to the truck I told the old man who's dog it was next time he hits a deer the coyotes can get him I'm done with him. Old man sent it up north and east somewhere, hell Tim might have some of its offspring. [Eek!]

Now to get back on topic...UTcaller said it best......just pick one they will all kill a coyote.

[ July 27, 2018, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Eddie ]

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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 02:11 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well. we have this happy family! I get a package from ko ko today and send off a package to Geordie this afternoon.

But, nobody volunteered to give me my case capacity soooo, I had to do it myself. Besides, whenever I say the "Middlested" word, nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about. Which is understandable because until I was looking at various rifles from this estate sale, I don't think I had heard of it either? But, it's similar to the rest, but this man, Middlested was trying to accomplish something. I don't know if it was successful or not but that was the rifle, take it or leave it. I'm one of those that likes to look at a cartridge, in my hand. Seems to give me a perspective. For instance, if you put several different cartridges in your pocket and try to guess which one you will pull out, it's really hard to judge by feel, you have to see them side by side.

First up, according to that link provided by Ariel Perez,
case capacity of the 22CM is 52.0gr.

22CM .......................... 52.0
22-243Ackley.................51.9 ......(according to AR Shaw)
22-243..........................50.8
22-243 Middlested......... 53.0 ......(according to me)

So, the 22-243, the 22-243Ackley and the 22-243Middlested, you would be hard pressed to guess which one you pulled out of your pocket by feel.

I do agree that the 22CM, if you aren't a hand loader might be an easy choice. But, then again, I am not sure if it's a modified cartridge or you can buy factory loaded ammunition?

Other than that, I don't understand the big rush for all our lovely Okie friends to tool up with that one, and stack their various obsolete 22-243's out at the curb for the trash man on Wednesday?

Good hunting. El Bee

[ July 27, 2018, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31307 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 02:24 PM      Profile for UTcaller   Email UTcaller         Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard,

I had definitively heard of the Middlestead before I rebarreled my 22-250 AI. That was what I was going to rebarrel to. I wanted Lapua brass and was going to get it in .243. But then Lapua started making .22-250 brass so that seemed easier to me. That and the recommendations of you and others on this board. Never have regretted it for one second. The thing shoots tight groups with 60 grain Bergers at 3800fps.

Good Hunting Chad

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Leonard
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Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 03:07 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Chad, seriously, I have been a cheer leader for 22-250Ackley for over 20 years. I shot a 220 Swift as my primary predator rifle, starting in 1975 and used it exclusively for over 12 years. It was a factory Ruger Model 77V, but accuracy became an issue and I rebarreled to 22-250Ackley because several of the club members were talking about it and the guy had the reamer so I went, what the hell. Smart choice on my part and I started getting interested in computers and the Internet about 27 years ago and didn't hold back on my praise. It just out performed the Swift like crazy. I always used the Speer 52 grain Gold Cup in the Swift but when switching to the Ackley Improved and 65 grain bullets, there really wasn't any comparison. It's just one of those charmed things. Better bullet higher velocity, a lot better ballistic coefficient, there was no negative.

Besides, the Swift case life ain't great even though I never pushed the pressure but I have always got twice as many reloads per case with the Ackley, more than 10, at least. I never stopped raving about it and I have noticed that we see more and more people moving to that short and fat and efficient case. What's not to like?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: by the way. Thank you to Richard, (ko ko) for the care package today. I will use it in good health. The hat I will probably have to just wear at gun shows because they tell me that patriotic attire is liable to get you beat up in California? But, thanks just the same.

edit: another thing about tooting my horn for the 22-250Ackley. I have always said, it deserves to be a factory cartridge. It's a great one!

[ July 27, 2018, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31307 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2018 04:24 PM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard, if a fired Lapua 6.5Creed case hold 51.2gr, ain't no way necking it down is gonna increase the volume. So, I suspect another brand of brass was considered for that 52gr data point?

And that 55.0gr for my .22-243AI is an average weight of 5 fired Lapua cases from my rifle.

Did you run Lapua brass in your Middlested?

For the record, my .220REDLINE has a capacity of 71gr. So, even my bad azz .22-243AI is just 'ho hum' , anymore.
Schwacked 11chucks with it the other afternoon, like takin' candy from a baby...
For example:
508yd chuck headshot video

[ July 27, 2018, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged


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