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Author Topic: 22 CM
Ariel Perez
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4678

Icon 1 posted July 19, 2018 01:01 PM      Profile for Ariel Perez   Email Ariel Perez         Edit/Delete Post 
What is everybody’s thoughts on the 22 cm? It seems to be the new hot caliber that everybody is building for their coyote rigs, just curious if anybody has one. Do you like it? Is it all it’s cracked up to be? I have been shooting a 243 for the last 6-7 years and I just can’t get myself to switch. I have one that’s shoots 58 grain vmax and another one that shoots 70 nosler. My barrel for the 58 grain finally went out so I’m just curious if I just buy a 22cm barrel or should I stick with the 243?? Is the BC that big of a difference to convert?

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AP

Posts: 60 | From: South/eastern Az | Registered: May 2016  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 19, 2018 01:11 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
First of all, what is a 22cm?

You know, a 243 is kinda hard to beat if all you want is a cartridge for killing coyotes. I have a 243 that I use the 70 Nosler and it is one of the more destructive bullets I have ever used in 243. Nothing wrong with that, if you don't care about the fur. I don't have a heck of a lot of experience with the lighter bullets but did shoot the 60 gr, Sierra in a 6mm for quite a while. Good killer and very accurate.

Anyway, when it comes to good 224 caliber cartridges for coyotes, again, it's hard to beat a 22-250Ackley. I don't know what it is about a 22CM that makes it popular, since I never heard of it, but to be superior to the 22-250 AI, that's a tall order.

So, what about it? Loaded ammunition? Availability of brass? an efficient volume/ratio type of thing, or what? Even if I don't know what it is, I can figure it out if you give me a hint.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ariel Perez
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4678

Icon 1 posted July 19, 2018 01:24 PM      Profile for Ariel Perez   Email Ariel Perez         Edit/Delete Post 
22 Creedmoor, it’s 6.5 cm brass necked down to a 22 cal. Everything I have read and heard word of mouth says it’s a lot better then a 22-250ai or even the 22-243. All the Okkies and Texas boys are using them now days. KJ is a big believer in them I believe he has two or three, I just wanted to get some comparison between a 243 and 22cm from somebody who has both and is it worth it to make the switch. They say you can shoot 75 grain at 3500-3600??? Nobody makes factory ammo yet but a few companies are making 22 cm brass so that’s a good start.

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AP

Posts: 60 | From: South/eastern Az | Registered: May 2016  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 19, 2018 03:01 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you. That Creedmore is quite a buzzword, if nothing else. Is there anything new under the sun? Doubtful? What you said about 75 grain bullets in a .224" bore does tell me something about the motivation.

You realize that, (or maybe you don't) that personally, I have killed thousands of coyotes and never one required a 75 grain bullet. So, Creedmore begs long distance. 75 grain begs long distance. Nothing new under the sun, it also hasn't changed that the majority of coyotes are killed within 100 yards, not 600, so that's not stand hunting as I know it.

Long range? 22 versus 24 bore, (in my opinion) everything favors the 6mm ballistically. With great effort, maybe some enterprising young man (like Fred) can come up with an exotic that could run with a .243" bore. But, big BUT, those same people can start tinkering with a 24 Redline with a 105 gr. hybrid. Then what? If it makes you happy and it works, go for it....because, everybody is building a dream. My personal Thor's Hammer is, and has been for a long time, the nice 25'06Ackley. I'm on my third. Nobody can convince me that for my purpose, night hunting from a rig, it's the best solution. Within my definition of best, and purpose. Yes, that's long range, but practical long range. At night, you are just kidding yourself to be banging away at coyote 600 yards away. Just try walking out there a half a mile at night and finding a dead coyote, if you can estimate the distance correctly and hit him, in the first place.

If you got to have something exotic that nobody else has, go for it. I mean, very few has one so it makes you cool. But, if your stand hunting is restricted to 300 yards or less, like the rest of us, another 243 will work for another 5-6 or 7 years quite nicely.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, just practical. Let us know what you decide.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ariel Perez
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4678

Icon 1 posted July 19, 2018 03:26 PM      Profile for Ariel Perez   Email Ariel Perez         Edit/Delete Post 
yes sir you are exactly right it’s a long range coyote gun. Nobody talked about it to me the way you just did and yup I made up my mind, ordering another 243 barrel. Because let’s be honest, the furthest shot I probably take in a year is 250-300 yards and to be honest that maybe happens once a year. I get that certain individuals shoot coyotes that far or have the terrain for further shots and practice long range but not this desert rat. Like you stated above most coyotes are shot within 100 yards and for me that couldn’t be more true, during the fall and winter I mainly shotgun hunt and if I’m after fox or cats I’ll break out the 22 hornet but when I’m chasing coyotes it’s usually the 12 gauge minus a few exceptions here and there. Only time I really use a rifle is during the summer with the dogs and during contest if the stand allows for it. Anyhow I appreciate the conversation and reminding me that I live in az and am by no means a long range shooter👍🏼

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AP

Posts: 60 | From: South/eastern Az | Registered: May 2016  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 19, 2018 07:07 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Ariel,
El Bee gives good solid advice. I, on the other hand, will lead you astray even though I barely know anything about regular calibers let alone exotic stuff.
First of all, get the .243 up and running. The Devil you know & all of that.
Then; …….."All of the Okies & Texas boys are using them ………." Meaning; Before too long you should be able to pick up a decent used one." Buy it & try it. Then you'll either want to build a more better one or you'll have gotten the whole thing out of your system.
Remember, in the long run, we tend to regret the things that we didn't do more than we obsess with guilt over the things that we did do.
Besides, practice long range shots and the 150s start to look like easy plinkers.

[Smile]

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7505 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 05:58 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
To further confuse the issue. Just because you don't have a valid, or practical reason for building an exotic chambering doesn't mean you can't do it just for the hell of it. We all can be such skinflints about certain things and then spend money like a drunken sailor on wildcat chambering. Especially when you don't think it through, or get a really fast twist, or a too short barrel, or don't consider that part of it, at all. It's also nice if you have a friend that already did it and can coach you past some snags. You know, the whole project can be a waste if you don't have a clue about appropriate, or correct powder. The propellant. I actually know somebody that burned up a barrel of a 6/284, in less than 400 rounds while wandering around, working up a load. Why reinvent the wheel when there are people that have gone before you that will steer you in the right direction.

As far as CREEDMORE anything, I don't get it? I read ads every day, some new rifle and it's only offered in 2 or 3 chambering and damned if one of them isn't a Creedmore! (I'm probably misspelling it?) Actually, my suspicion is that it's a friggin' BUZZWORD! The word itself is worth a half an inch accuracy and maybe 200 f.p.s. velocity. Used to be, 220Swift conjured up exotic mystical performance, now it's CREEDMORE

But, sometimes a plain vanilla cartridge is all you need, if you are practical and can resist exotic labels. Ha! For me, the magic words was ACKLEY IMPROVED. Fortunately, it wasn't a bum steer, as long as I did my homework.

Whatever, now when you order that 243 barrel, make sure you get the specs right, and have a good idea of the type of bullet you intend using.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 06:55 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I think that I'm just going to re-name my .223 the TACTICAL CREEDMORE IMPROVED TWENTY TWO THREE.
Should be worth at least a couple of extra coyotes a year and saves time & coin on gunsmithing.

[Cool]

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7505 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 06:59 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Wait a minute! You actually have a 223? I might have to put you on probation? What on earth do you do with it? No wonder you revert to flinging pointed sticks at coyotes.

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 07:11 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, I have three.
(1) A Thompson Contender set up as a carbine w/4x scope that's a sweetheart to shoot.
(2) A Savage .223 / 12 Gauge O/U with a 1.5 to 4 x scope that's as effective as it is ugly.
and
(3) THE M ONE FOUR TEEN TACTICAL CREEDMORE IMPROVED TWENTY TWO THREE that is Hell on any coyote out about 100 yards. [Eek!]

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7505 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 07:12 AM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
Yep, the 22 creed is becoming very popular with a lot of coyote hunters. Not just here in OK either. I believe it is a spin off from the growing popularity of long range shooting where the 6 and 6.5 are popular cartridges. I know several people shooting the 22CM. I also think there is a trend to lean towards the heavier for caliber bullets, again coming from the popularity of long range shooting.

As far as the 22cm being better than the 22-250AI, well, that I don't see. I have owned both 6 and 6.5CM and am on my second barrel of my 22-250AI. The case capacity is almost identical (with a slight advantage to the AI). With the 22CM though, there is no fire forming, but the hornady brass is junk IMO and the alpha brass and lapua brass is too pricey to be left behind on a coyote stand.....again, just my opinion. I can get many reloads out of cheap old winchester brass as long as I dont oversize my brass too much.

I'm not knocking the 22CM, I think it is a good cartridge for coyotes. But a 75g bullet going 3500+fps or a 55g bullet going 3900+fps is the same thing regardless of what the chambering is, and both cartridges will achieve that easily. I'll stick with my AI.

Maintain

p.s. how do we post pics without photobucket? Fred, this is directed at you.....lol

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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.

Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 07:55 AM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
 -

[ July 20, 2018, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]

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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.

Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 07:57 AM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 


[ July 20, 2018, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]

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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.

Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 09:17 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
what a time for Dave to refuse to enlighten us mere mortals

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 12:42 PM      Profile for UTcaller   Email UTcaller         Edit/Delete Post 
For me the 22-250 AI is the choice hands down. More case capacity. I like to use Lapua brass. Fireforming is a non issue as far as I’m concerned. I bought 200 rounds of Lapua 22-250 Remington brass when I first rebarreled. Loaded them about 1.5 grains over Standard 22-250 max and they were damn near as accurate as my current Ackley Improved load then I went Coyote Calling. Probably killed 150 Coyotes fireforming. Once I fireformed them I settled on a load for the new case and haven’t changed since then. It has been my favorite Caliber hands down.

Good Hunting Chad

[ July 20, 2018, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]

Posts: 1555 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 12:52 PM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
My 22-250 still kills em dead no reason to wander. Exotics a great distraction and hobby good way to use expendable cash , anything really new not likely.

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 20, 2018 03:17 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, as long as you are happy, don't pay any attention to all these speed freaks. I have used a 22-250 and before that, the 22 Varminter which is what it was called before 1969 when Remington brought out the factory chambering. It actually dates back to, (don't quote me!) 1930s. Of course, that Mauser, an original Oberndorf double set trigger was a screamer!

Anyway, not to drift off point, but the 22-250 runs a little less than a 220Swift. I don't know, depending on barrel length the difference could be 150/200 fps and the coyote won't know the difference, as one comment goes. But ballistically, the Swift has an advantage, no doubt.

Now consider the 22-250 Ackley Improved. This pretty well standardized "wildcat" performs beyond Swift so it's a significant improvement over the Factory Remington 22-250. Of course, all things being equal, and average stands, coyotes killed between 100/200 yards or so and sometime much less, the factory cartridge can easily handle this chore.

But, if you hunt the wide open prairies, and are offered a shot way out yonder, then the flatter shooting Ackley is a definite advantage for an animal that hangs up at 300/350 or so. Speaking of midpoint trajectory considerations, for nailing that second of the pair that is leaving the county. There is no denying the advantage of the Ackley chambering for such things.

For me, it's a no brainer. Fire forming just isn't that big a deal. Yes, it's a hand loading proposition. But, the plus is that the 40 degree shoulder is so easy on case life that I routinely get over 10 reloads from every case and that's something that our Swift shooting friends cannot say. Usually, at least.

But, any of those choices are far superior to the 223. About this time there will be a 223 user that will defend the cartridge but this is a Prirus versus Dodge Pick up argument. lol

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ariel Perez
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4678

Icon 1 posted July 21, 2018 10:59 AM      Profile for Ariel Perez   Email Ariel Perez         Edit/Delete Post 
I’m gonna stick with a 243 and order a barrel. Contemplating a 20 or 22 inch sporter barrel and I am gonna get a higher twist rate so it can shoot the lighter bullets, so we will see. My 22250 has killed plenty as well but it’s hard leaving the house without a 243 it’s treated me well over the years and I’m very comfortable with it and If it ain’t broke don’t fix it I guess.
Koko I remember the first time we met you had that little Thompson center 223, you were on the side of the road checking your zero because you had missed a coyote the stand before. We were playing hop scotch on the road to portal if I remember right, you also gave me a drag that you had made out of a car battery handle?? Still carry it will me during the winter and it helps a ton, wouldn’t mind having an extra😉

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AP

Posts: 60 | From: South/eastern Az | Registered: May 2016  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 21, 2018 12:47 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Ariel,
I used to get those battery carriers back when I was working part-time at a recycle lot. Didn't need to modify them at all. I've even made a couple out of yucca stalks & para-cord.
You're correct, but it wasn't the Thompson's fault that I missed that coyote. Flat out blew a shot I should have made.

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7505 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted July 21, 2018 04:37 PM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
I have one KOKO gave me still use it ! best little crate in the business !

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted July 21, 2018 04:39 PM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
I see videos of folks dragging off the guard hairs makes me cry !

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 21, 2018 05:44 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh yeah, the one he gave me works great!👍

Wait a minute! What am I talking about? No, he didn’t! WTF!

Good hunting. El Bee 🐝

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 21, 2018 06:34 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I'll see if I can find you one.
Or I'll make you one.
Lemme see what I can come up with.

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7505 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 6 posted July 21, 2018 06:48 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
What a generous, unsolicited offer!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 23, 2018 08:00 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Back to the wonder caliber. I mean, really, do we need another hot chambering? Strictly talking about hunting coyotes conventionally, either at night or daylight stands. Seems like there is available just about anything imaginable from 17 caliber to at least 6.5 or so? If you can't find a caliber that knocks your socks off from what's available without dreaming up a necked down Creedmore that does a much better job than what everybody else has. I mean, give me a fucking break! All the Okies have switched to the 22CM, and they know what it stands for? Dead coyotes! Can't be done with a 220Swift or a 243 anymore. They've all rebarreled to the 22CM and now they never miss. Horseshit!

I have always said, the same thing applies to hunters as to fishermen, the lures catch fishermen, not fish. It's always been this way, there is MAGIC in a word. Like "Magnum" or "Swift" or "Ackley". Now it's "22CM".

And, let me just add, this long distance crap is getting out of hand, up and down. I've read serious articles about 800 yard bull elk. Do the math. how far can an elk move while that VLD bullet is in flight, @800 yards? I don't want no part of it but when it gets to the point where we need a 22CM to anchor long range coyotes, something is seriously out of whack.

I have an application regarding coyotes at night from a rig. Texas hunters know what I'm talking about. But, even then, my personal restraint is generally less than 500 yards, more like 400 for a couple reasons. First, it's very difficult to gauge distance at night and second, the animal MUST be marked very well. Trust me, you do not want to be searching for an animal that has dropped out of sight, that far away. It can and I have spent hours searching, and come up empty. If it's a contest, you learn pretty quick about diminishing returns.

If you can't call a coyote inside 250 yards, or so, then that miraculous new 22CM will be of limited value. I mean ok, yeah, I have dumped a few way out yonder when I'm desperate, but you shouldn't be looking for trouble, or trying to prove what a dickhead marksman you are, armed with the latest cartridge that all the experts tell us is what's needed, or you ain't shit.

I don't have all the answers. But I know that varmint hunters are just as "trend" oriented as the rest of them. Gullible. Everybody has a dream, right? There is "Magic" in certain words. I guess, this week it's CREEDMORE?

Just kidding, don't take me serious, you fellas that jumped on board. Geordie? lol

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31308 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged


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