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Author
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Topic: Question
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WhiteMtnCur
Knows what it's all about
Member # 5
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posted July 31, 2018 02:26 PM
Well Leonard, you kinda hit the nail on the head for the differences here. Your techniques and methods are to guarantee coyotes in the back of the truck, with the focus being contests; where the guy who kills the most pups wins. What I'm doing, has a high degree of success for killing coyotes in the mountains in the summer. They're just fundamentally different situations.
Remember those photos I sent you last year from good nights of production? In the fall, down in the valleys, hammering pups, we hunt a lot alike.
But that methodology is worthless when you've got three coyotes in the timber on the north face of a 9,000' peak and they're hitting on a band of sheep on the south face every night.
It gets back to just being the difference between killing "a" coyote or killing "the" coyote.
If I was after numbers, I wouldn't waste time advancing on howlers. More or less just like has been said above; finish the stand and sometimes it produces, sometimes it doesn't. Then get down the road to new coyotes.
For me its the reasons why they howl but don't come, that make this subject intriguing.
I mostly disagree with the thought that its territory and territorial boundaries. I don't think there's any real credence to that theory.
If pup and yearling coyotes account for 80-90% of most overall coyote population, and we know that those age classes don't really defend territories (unless we're talking yearling "babysitters" tied to adults on a den) than all this "territorial" howling in response to calling doesn't add up to the smallest segment of the coyote population that actually is territorial.
I think territory is grossly misunderstood by coyote hunters. It seems like human psychology understands property lines, city limits, county lines, state boundaries, etc., and we try to impart that binary view of land division to coyotes/territory and it's been my experience that's not how the coyotes see it. Territory is far more fluid and resource based. Whoever is currently present and the meanest, is the boss there at that time. I laugh every time I read a caller saying something about a fence or road being a territory boundary a coyote won't cross to come to the call. Hell, I think if coyotes could reason, a rabbit or lamb stolen from the neighbor coyote's territory, across that fence or road, would taste better to them because it's stolen!
Denning makes territory the most acute as the static nature of pups in a hole forces coyotes to defend that area as their territory. Anyone who's worked a den, particularly with dogs has seen that. But even that harsh territoriality is relative to conditions. I have a good friend who's spent his whole coyote career in the desert southwest. He told me about once in Arizona finding THREE coyote dens, each one containing pups, all utilizing one single water source.
So, how does that work for territory, if at a time when coyotes are most territorial, they're sharing a water source? Three groups, at that.
Maybe territory is just present resources at present time? Subject to change at the drop of a hat. The GPS telemetry data seems to support that.
I'm getting tangential to coyotes howling at a caller on a stand. I just don't buy that coyotes howling at a distress sound from a thousand yards out, are not approaching because there's a "territorial boundary" between the caller and the coyote(s). I think much of it is coyotes communicating either some kind of coyote language acknowledgment or some kind of alarm (educated is possibly a better term than alarm?), and I don't necessarily think we can always discern what they're saying as well as many claim.
What I do know, is if a coyote is willing to talk to me on stand, he's probably gonna die. It's not as number-productive as going down the road to new coyotes, so probably not a worthwhile technique for a recreational/contest/fur hunter. But going after howlers is a pretty good bet for me working to clean an area, with the investment of a few miles of pursuit to get it done.
Posts: 97 | From: Nevada | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted July 31, 2018 02:42 PM
leonard: wish I had a nugget to toss in the conversation, but my experience closely mirrors Daves' as far as coyotes responding vocally to distress sound.
Im a complete simpleton in my method of calling, I spend no time investigating and researching coyote behavior, only knowledge I have comes from simple observation.
You like to raze us here in southern Az, but truth be known, coyote density is just like any other western state, some years good, some years down.
Probably the biggest factor to my calling technique has nothing to do with calling, but everything to do with getting out and looking at my areas. I grew up here, there aren't many places I haven't been or know where and how to get there. Ive done lots of walking and driving around this desert 50 years.
I know what good coyote country looks like, and just driving around and walking looking for indian stuff or shooting jackrabbits, Im always looking at the ground. Some guys are looking at mountains or for deer, and Im sitting next to them pointing out the scat markings or tracks I see drifting off the road.
I can't call any particular part of my technique a secret, it's merely looking for good country/cover, looking for the obvious signs that coyotes are indeed around and getting out there and calling. I heard one of the TV hunting show hosts years ago make a statement concerning fishing, and the second I heard it, it dawned on me how it paralleled coyote hunting. He always said " 90% of the fish, are in 10% of the water" one of the keys to successful calling, is finding that 10% of the terrain/area/structure that holds the most number of coyotes.
That's where most of my energy goes, is looking for good areas, and knowing where the good areas are here in my little part of the state.
I wish I had the knowledge of some of the guys on here, or guys that were here, Higgins, Huber Cal, about the only local savvy guy whos' brain I get to pick is Brent, and he hunts harder than I can keep up with.
That's all I know on the subject, aint much, but for me, the more days I get out and hunt coyotes, the luckier I seem to get.
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 31, 2018 03:19 PM
Thank you!
Now see? That wasn't so hard, was it? Just check in once in a while. You made at least four significant points without even trying. Example: first sentence, you share the fact that your experience closely mirrors with Dave. That's not nothing, it's information, same stuff from Utah to McNeal.
I don't much like to be constantly prodding the Peanut Gallery for contributions, but if nobody else does it, I have to hog the limelight just to put a little fire under their butts, say something that rattles their cage so they cough up good information they have and maybe don't even realize it. (wow, could have used a couple periods there, huh?)
Sorry I raze on you so severely. I hate being mean.
Good hunting
Big Bully LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 31, 2018 06:55 PM
".... the more days I get out & hunt coyotes, the luckier I seem to get."
Nugget !!!!
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 01, 2018 02:52 AM
I often tell guys that ask, and it's not usually what they are hoping to hear, that I spend more time, effort and cold hard cash on gas and tires, out looking for productive ground than anything else.
And, this part really seems to depress some of them, what was the best ever this year, might not be much good next year.
In a nutshell, my advice to many has been that if you don't really enjoy that part, personally I love it, but if you don't flat out enjoy just getting out there and seeing what you can see, this coyote hunting stuff around here might not be for you.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 01, 2018 04:37 AM
Yeah there are no free lunches with consistent Coyote Calling that’s for sure. You’ve got to put in the time and educate yourself through the School of hard knocks... My oldest son has been bitten by the calling bug lately. He’s gone with me a few times over the years but just recently has really shown an interest.We’ll go out and shoot the shit out of them. Then he’ll call me and say he went out with a buddy and couldn’t call up a damn Coyote and can’t understand what the hell he’s doing wrong? I usually just laugh and tell him he’ll figure it out, it just takes time.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324
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posted August 01, 2018 04:55 AM
I would love to hunt where you got a lot of land. Like some of you are saying if they howl you just move on to another spot.
Here in north central Ok. The land is cut up in 1 mile square sections, there might be as many as 6 different owners to the section. The big spreads are all leased up to the big money guys. So greeting to hunt all of it is slim and none.
So you have to work with what you got, that means you stay longer and change sounds more,
Three years ago l took 6 coyotes off one 160, it took me a month and a half. I was going back every 6 to 7 days.
In that time I used anything from coyote howls, rabbit Dist. to a coon fight and Dist. sounds. You guys no I got the pups frist then got the old male to come in to a coon fight. Now the old female I got here when I was really trying to call a cat, she came in to a baby cotton tail.
What I getting at is that if they howl, I either try to work them or go home. There ain't no picking up moving on down the road.
Everybody does it different, some times I think a person can over think coyote hunting.
Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted August 01, 2018 06:47 AM
"......sometimes I think a person can over think coyote hunting."
Nugget.
A few more of these and we'll have a Happy Meal. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 01, 2018 07:08 AM
That's interesting, Eddie. Also a reminder that some people don't have the access. In some ways, it is similar in California. There is a whole strip of the map vertically, that I know virtually nothing about because it's primarily private land and I don't bother because the southern and the eastern part has so much BLM land where we have excellent access.
So, I have never knocked on doors and sweet talked ranchers and farmers, wouldn't even know how to go about it, maybe a box of chocolates? It's also why I appreciate Nevada next door, the whole state is wide open access. I don't know what I'd do if I had a bunch of private property? Gotta know somebody, or hunt the same 160, early, late, new moon, summer, winter, bad weather and any other wrinkle you can think of?
You know, Byron South used to do ranch work, building fences and custom gates, you know Texas? Can't hardly pull off the pavement before you are on someone's property. Anyway, that's where he got his "unique" ideas about coyote behavior. See, they aren't spooky, you can talk, laugh, joke and play grab ass and the coyotes just sit beside a bush and watch you dig post holes. Well, that has something to do with the fact that you and the crew aren't focused on the coyotes, you are working....and everybody likes to watch people work, including coyotes. So, ol' Byron will sit on stand and chit chat; used to drive Higgins nuts.
Don't know where I was going with that? Anyway, we have to make the most of what we have, even if it's a Groundhog Day situation. Pretty soon, you will be naming the pups.
I just know that if I had some of the obstacles that others have, I probably wouldn't bother, maybe take up golf again? That sucks, of course. Who needs that frustration?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted August 01, 2018 07:13 AM
What Eddie said is why I go back and forth a lot. I have both types of ground. Sometimes, for whatever reason, Im confined to hunting like he does, and you have to do what you have to do. Other times, Im headed to another part of the state with public ground or Im going to AZ or whatever.
If I didnt have the freedom though, of hitting public ground within a hour or two drive or loading up and hitting the road to get to another awsome state...I just wouldnt give 2 shits about predator hunting, period.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted August 01, 2018 08:02 AM
I guess I've had my share of howlers over the years, when playing distress. Many many times I have decided to move on them, mostly because I figured I need to call where coyotes are so when I hear some howling and they don't show up on my current stand, why not go to them, I mean I know there are coyotes there so why leave when I know where they are. Many times it's worked and I've often just thought it was simply a distance thing. Seems like around here if they aren't much over 1/2 mile away and they howl, most likely they will show, and if they are more like 3/4 of mile or more, they aren't going to come.
I'm sure all of us have seen coyotes do something that didn't make sense. Just last year in WY. a group of four of us calling together called in the same coyote on 2 stands in a row. It was easy to recognize him because he had a limp ear and on the first stand that he came in he went by me and another guy at about 10', (we never even got a shot off). But we had a group howling off in the distance so we walked to the next group. Called in a pair pretty quick on the next stand and about the time we were getting ready to call it quits, the limp eared coyote showed back up and died at 250 yards.
Also had a time where I moved on howlers 3 times and on the 3rd stand got them to come and they came hard when they finally came. Was it because I finally threw out the right lure or was it because of my 3rd location that made them finally commit. Don't know but I sure felt satisfaction when I finally got them to show.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 01, 2018 08:16 AM
quote:
If I didnt have the freedom though, of hitting public ground within a hour or two drive or loading up and hitting the road to get to another awsome state...I just wouldnt give 2 shits about predator hunting, period.
If I had to ask permission to hunt, I'd be a non hunter.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted August 01, 2018 08:54 AM
Yeah, you 'out west' guys and your unlimited access can suck it! (typed with jealous affection)...
Eddie, having a 1/4 section is all ya need out there. From the times I've called your kind of AO, as long as the conditions are right, you're pretty much effectively calling the whole section, anyway. Especially if you're crankin' off a howl to get things rollin'. And, OK coyotes don't seem to mind crossing a dirt road to show up...
Whereas, in my AO, roads are prevalent, paved, and pounded. So, getting a coyote to cross even a rural road is expecting a lot. Had a stand last fall where I smoked a single, and just after the shot, the rest of the pack lit up across the rural road from me. Wind was right for them to not bust me, yet they hung up and howled like assholes for 10minutes straight.
They even had a large culvert to use to cross 'under', but never showed up. And, when the local milk truck steamrolled down the road, that stopped things cold.
Not complaining, just sayin! You could prolly take the same coyote and drop in in a different maze, and it's gonna improvise/adapt/overcome based on that AO. So, it only stands to reason that coyotes react/respond to various stimulus in different ways, based on terrain, alone...
After hunting all over the country, the 'pack mentality' of NE coyotes is like nothing ive ever experienced, anywhere else. That phenomenon alone seems to drive their behavior, to the degree that the same behavior is deemed abnormal for a western coyote. But, I'm tellin ya, they're a slightly different critter...
[ August 01, 2018, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 01, 2018 09:21 AM
....as you are.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted August 02, 2018 05:53 AM
I love this site and this thread is why !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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